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Wait... Garchomp's uncounterable?

or we can actually not continually ignore the part where i say "with little to no risk to itself" in my rmt announcement and immediately scratch cloyster and mamoswine and steelix off the list
 
So you manage to get Cloyster/Mamoswine/Steelix in against Garchomp. Now what? Unless it's using Outrage, which it shouldn't do unless it's in a position to sweep with it, you can't kill it because it'll just switch out, and now your Cloyster/Steelix/(maybe not Mamoswine) just became setup bait for something else.

And guess what? Garchomp will just come back in later on a turn it doesn't feel threatened, and you'll have to risk another hit from Garchomp along with possible Spikes damage and everything else that could be nasty to get your "counter" back in.
 
Syberia said:
So you manage to get Gliscor in against heracross. Now what? Unless it's using Outrage, which it shouldn't do unless it's in a position to sweep with it, you can't kill it because it'll just switch out, and now your Gliscor just became setup bait for something else.

And guess what? heracross will just come back in later on a turn it doesn't feel threatened, and you'll have to risk another hit from heracross along with possible Spikes damage and everything else that could be nasty to get your "counter" back in.
Click to expand...
By your logic, there's no point to countering anything.
 
Well gliscor at least resists most of heracross's attacks and can roost it off as well as threaten things with its own Swords Dancing.
 
Difference between Gliscor and Mamo/Cloyster/Steelix is that Gliscor can come in with no risk to itself. So what if it takes a CB Meghorn to the face? It can Roost it all off on the turn Heracross switches out, or Knock Off the switch-in, or lay Stealth Rocks, or U-Turn on the predicted switch-out.

Mamo, Steelix, and Cloyster all risk damage to themselves by coming in (only Cloyster is not threatened by a 2HKO from any of the standard physical chomp's moves). That being said, though, Cloyster's type is horrible defensively, and he risks 25% SR damage everytime it switches in with no way to recover.
 
CLoyster- Slap on a Custap berry, use Ice Beam, and you got yourself a Counter

(SR makes it take 25% damage + 50%-59% damage from CB Outrage so Custap activates )

Cloyster: @ Custap Berry
252 Hp/252 Def/4 Sp Atk
Nature (+Def, - Spd)

- Ice Beam
- Ice Shard
- Surf
- Explosion

Mamoswine @ CBAND
252 Hp/252 Defense/4 Atk
Adament

- Ice Shard
- EQ
- Avalanche
- Stone Edge

If y'all say, "Don't forget Sand Veil's +20% evasion", then I can say "Don't forget Snow Cloak." (In other words, it's pointless). Mamoswine is immune to both harmful weathers.

Clefable @ Focus Sash
252 HP, 4 Defense 252 Special Attack
MAGIC GUARD (prevents Focus Sash from breaking its use b/c of Weather/Spikes)

Counter
Encore
Ice Beam
Softboiled

Encore works against Swords Dance/Substitute, Ice Beam works to break that Substitute. When it attacks, you always survive with Focus Sash to abuse Counter.

Clefable is the best user of Focus Sash, honestly... (Or Maybe Rayquaza, whom is immune to weather/Spikes/Toxic Spikes, but still weak to SR).
 
Cloyster can use Ice Shard which, even with 0 attack EVs, will 2HKO.

Mamoswine can't switch in on anything not named Swords Dance without being 2HKOed. With no speed, I can't see it doing much, either.

That Clefable loses to anything not named Garchomp.
 
Jumpman16 said:
or we can actually not continually ignore the part where i say "with little to no risk to itself" in my rmt announcement and immediately scratch cloyster and mamoswine and steelix off the list
Click to expand...

Yeah, but there's a lot of things that I still don't get about that definition of counter.

For instance, in order to be a counter to a pokemon, does it have to counter every single set that the pokemon has, or is it acceptable to be a counter for an individual set?

Also, what do we do in the case of a pokemon with an obscene movepool such as Gengar or Lucario? If a counter has to be able to take every single set that a certain pokemon can possibly have, then it's pretty difficult to find any official counters for those guys. If countering an individual set is alright, then I'm not sure why people are saying the some of these pokemon have no counters.

Is it a requirement for a counter to be dealing huge chunks of damage to their target? For instance, theoretically, is a pokemon like Shuckle able to counter anything?

These are some of the things that I needed cleared up for me about the definition of counter.
 
Syberia said:
Cloyster can use Ice Shard which, even with 0 attack EVs, will 2HKO.

Cloyster may need to 1hko with Custap + Ice Beam considering if it switches in and takes Outrage, as Ice Shard will only deal about what? 50%

Mamoswine can't switch in on anything not named Swords Dance without being 2HKOed. With no speed, I can't see it doing much, either.

That Clefable loses to anything not named Garchomp.
Click to expand...

Mamoswine is fine, it has 1hko Ice Shard on my set with CBAND, so if Garchomp can only 2hko (barring Fire Blast), then it will still counter Garchomp.

Actually that Clefable can be used against anything that uses a physical move, not just Garchomp, plus Ice Beam can be used against Dragons like Flygon, etc.

Again, here are the sets

"SR makes it take 25% damage + 50%-59% damage from CB Outrage so Custap activates )

Cloyster: @ Custap Berry
252 Hp/252 Def/4 Sp Atk
Nature (+Def, - Spd)

- Ice Beam
- Ice Shard
- Surf
- Explosion

Mamoswine @ CBAND
252 Hp/252 Defense/4 Atk
Adament

- Ice Shard
- EQ
- Avalanche
- Stone Edge

If y'all say, "Don't forget Sand Veil's +20% evasion", then I can say "Don't forget Snow Cloak." (In other words, it's pointless). Mamoswine is immune to both harmful weathers.

Clefable @ Focus Sash
252 HP, 4 Defense 252 Special Attack
MAGIC GUARD (prevents Focus Sash from breaking its use b/c of Weather/Spikes)

Counter
Encore
Ice Beam
Softboiled

Encore works against Swords Dance/Substitute, Ice Beam works to break that Substitute. When it attacks, you always survive with Focus Sash to abuse Counter."
Click to expand...
(
 
My tests are... pretty much confirming what everyone here has been saying, on both sides, to certain degrees.

I still say the art wins the argument. >.>;
 
I know Mamoswine can OHKO with Ice Shard. It doesn't even need the CB to do that. My point is, it can't switch in without taking large amounts of damage, which it cannot recover (especially if you insist on giving it a CB), and it just severely weakened itself just to scare off one pokemon one time.
 
Jumpman16 said:
or we can actually not continually ignore the part where i say "with little to no risk to itself" in my rmt announcement and immediately scratch cloyster and mamoswine and steelix off the list
Click to expand...

It's exactly that part that I have a problem with =/

We rarely have 100% counters to everything in DP, and in some cases, cannot have these 100% counters. That is if you follow that definition.

You can't assume you are going to make the wrong move. You have to assume you are going to make the right move. That's why I feel confident "countering" LO Gengar and LO Infernape with ScarfChomp...because I don't really care that they run HP Ice...I actually plan on switching in against the other attacks. You can't assume you might switch into the wrong attacks in DP, because you'll find yourself going in a circular motion trying to counter every possible set on every possible Pokemon. Or you'll end up with a slow, stall team that is completely helpless against any team that decides to strongly emphasize one specific aspect, such as carrying 4 Choice Banders.

Honestly, what can switch into Salamence / Lucario / Garchomp with little to no risk to itself?

Because certain things obviously cannot be countered using the old definition does mean that this means anything at all. DP's metagame is all about managing your resources and managing the momentum of the battle, and you won't do this by deciding to carry Pokemon that "take little to no risk to themselves" on your team.
 
Exactly, otherwise Skarmary may then not be counterable b/c they pack Natural Gift + Pamtre Berry/Apicot Berry to kill Magnezone on the switch in...

If we consider Skarmary countered by Magnezone, while there still is a threat to Magnezone being 1hkoed when switching in, everyone's belief is actually proving your definition wrong Jumpman16.
 
Resist said:
Exactly, otherwise Skarmary may then not be counterable b/c they pack Natural Gift + Pamtre Berry/Apicot Berry to kill Magnezone on the switch in...

If we consider Skarmary countered by Magnezone, while there still is a threat to Magnezone being 1hkoed when switching in, everyone's belief is actually proving your definition wrong Jumpman16.
Click to expand...
Is there a reason you haven't spelled "Skarmory" correctly in any post you've made ever?
 
Resist said:
Exactly, otherwise Skarmary may then not be counterable b/c they pack Natural Gift + Pamtre Berry/Apicot Berry to kill Magnezone on the switch in...

If we consider Skarmary countered by Magnezone, while there still is a threat to Magnezone being 1hkoed when switching in, everyone's belief is actually proving your definition wrong Jumpman16.
Click to expand...
If Skarmory is giving up leftovers and a moveslot for a gimmick natural gift attack, I'd say maggie's done his job of weakening skarm, even if he does subsequently die.

EDIT:
Adamant 252 Skarmory @ 80bp ground attack vs 92 hp Magnezone

Damage: 251 - 295
Damage: 82.57% - 97.04%
 
Skarmory fails to OHKO Magnezone even with a ground typed Natural Gift. Even a max attack Skarmory can not OHKO a 92 HP / 0 Def Magnezone.
 
Swords Dance Skarmory can! But what's this have to do with Garchomp?

Aldaron gets the win award for saying pretty much what I was trying to say in the first post; lots of things don't have 100% counters so you can't say Garchomp is unique in that aspect. This is ignoring that Cresselia is just a step away from being a 100% counter.

If Garchomp were really unstoppable, every team would have a problem with him. Learn to separate "being a huge threat" with "being unstoppable".
 
That number is irrelevant now, they all carry Yache...

@ Scyther, nice sig, but I topped that with a Blazed Choice Specs Eruption in the sun from Typhlosion :-)
 
@ Scyther, nice sig, but I topped that with a Blazed Choice Specs Eruption(!!) in the sun from Typhlosion
Click to expand...

I honestly can't see Typhlosion doing that much damage in that scenario. Also I fail to see how that is relevant to the discussion on Garchomp.
 
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