Wall breaking: a guide for the offensive side

[Aldaron]

Good stuff, I like this. Now I would recommend some specific examples or combinations.

For example, running Mixtar + SD Luke has been one of the most effective Stall/Wall breaking combinations for me on Shoddy so far.

I'd like to stress combinations only because while SkarmBliss fails to Mixape, most teams employing the SkarmBliss strategy will have a Mixape counter, such Thunder Wave + Psychic Cresselia. Each of your general categories is solid for breaking specific examples of walls, but you should go into a little detail for combination wall breaking,

 

[Mekkah]

Don't forget McGar.

DP brought Gengar to the point where using McGar is kind of the opposite of wall-breaking, as Substitute hurts versatility, and versatility is the most important thing here.

 

[Jediment]

I'm trying to make a point in this guide that Gengar is not a good example of a mixed attacker. While McGar exists, his prevalence is extremely low in D/P (at least it seems that way based on my experiences in Shoddy). Also, putting Explosion on Gengar doesn't make him a mixed attacker, it just gives him the ability to counter Blissey. Even Azelf doesn't make an ideal mixed attacker because its physical movepool consists of Explosion, U-Turn, and a couple other moves that are too weak or unexciting to viably use.

 

[chaos]

McGar wasn't even used that much in later ADV, who cares about it

 

[Aldaron]

Screw McGar. Phox, I'm asking you about combinations. It's all well and good that you've laid out the obvious singular methods for breaking walls, but those are simply tips for general team building.

You still need to provide some tried and true tested combinations. For example:

1. Mixtar + SD Luke- SD Luke, depending on the set, fears either Zapdos/Gliscor or Cresselia/Dusknoir, all of which fall to Mixtar.

2. Mixape + CBtar- T-wave Psychic Cresselia is saying nothing to a Banded Tar's Pursuit

3. Mixmence + CBGross- Type combination allows for easy switching, massive attacking potential allows for wall wrecking.

Etc. etc. If you want, you can PM me and I can help you draw up a general list of solid combinations. We can even go as far as trios; 2 examples are CBtar + ScarfChomp + Gross or Mixtar + SdLuke + ScarfGar. Either trio begs for a decent counter and really does not recommend switching against.

 

[CLegacyM]

It would also be effective to look at pokemon that work well defensively together. Such as Salamence/Heatran or Gyarados/Magnezone.

 

[Derek(PUK)]

I beileve that ambipom should get a mention in hte pursuit trappers section.

 

[Jediment]

While I agree that it's a good idea, I first have to figure out where it would be best implemented. Once I do that I'll use some of those combos.

EDIT: Incorporated execution and combos into the guide. I think it's starting to shape up nicely.

 

[cornflake]

Yikes, looks like McGar isn't nearly as good as it was cooked up to be. At least it kills(killed) Skarmbliss with SubPunch and Thunderbolt. But yeah, Gengar is mainly just a special attacker, so we can drop it.

 

[Kingdrom]

Nice work on the guide. There are a few things i found though:

1) Houndoom can be used as a mixed sweeper. It has access to STAB Beat Up, allowing it to beat Blissey, which I think is worth a mention since Blissey is the most common pokemon.

2) Bronzong, sharing the same typing as Jirachi/Metagross, is worth a mention. It is more defensive than Metagross, and has access to Stealth Rock, Hypnosis, and can take care of Weavile easily with Gyro Ball like the others.

3) Houndoom and Staraptor also can use Pursuit effectively.

 

[Jediment]

I mentioned that Houndoom's movepool is generally too shallow to be a mixed sweeper. I didn't mention Bronzong because it's too offensively weak (sans Calm Mind) to be effective with the strategy. Houndoom is a special attacker and therefore Pursuit may not be the best option, though Staraptor could be worth mention.

 

[Taylor]

I did not read all the sections, yet I did somewhat enjoy what I did read. Though I'd like to ask: can you start a sentence with "But"?

 

[Jediment]

While grammatically incorrect (in the very most formal sense), you can start a sentence with "but" for literary style or dramatic effect or whatever. Since this isn't a master's thesis or something I think starting a sentence with "but" is acceptable, but I suppose some higher authorities should examine that.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Great article, Phox! Very comprehensive coverage of all the variations of wall-breaking. It's logically organized and readable. It has a very conversational style, good grammar and spelling, and is a good read. Even though I know almost eveything in the guide, I still enjoyed reading it.

One other possible inclusion might be a section in Part 4 on damaging status like Toxic and Burn. It's really not wall-breaking in itself, but it does limit the ability of walls to sit and do their thing. Somewhat like damaging weather. In reality, toxic isn't too great against traditional walls -- since Blissey has Natural Cure and Skarmory is immune. But the newers walls, like Cressy, Hippo, and Gliscor really don't like Toxic. Burn is more an anti-sweeper move, but it's a pain for some of the newer walls that also hit back on the physical side. Hippo and Gliscor hate Burn.

That's my only suggestion. Otherwise, fantastic job!

 

[Mekkah]

Also, putting Explosion on Gengar doesn't make him a mixed attacker, it just gives him the ability to counter Blissey.

No, it does make him a mixed attacker. He will be attacking from two sides of the spectrum. Granted, the physical one will come only once, but still, per definition he's mixed. And per definition, this does not make him a Blissey counter. He has to be able to switch in on Blissey and pose a significant enough threat to make her switch out or kill her if she stays in. Protecting Blissey means death for nothing here, and if Blissey switches out Gengar just does 100% to himself and cannot switch in anymore.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Aerodactyl, Scizor, Ambipom, Hitmontop and Dugtrio are also solid Pursuit users. Aerodactyl creates a lot of switches and can do some serious damage to Azelf, Gengar and Starmie. Scizor, Ambipom and Hitmontop all benefit from Technician while using Pursuit (and Pursuit can help Hitmontop clear the field of ghosts for Rapid Spinning). Dugtrio's pursuit is a really good Gengar stopper, helps it beat things that have U-Turn, and is also very useful in Ubers for Lati@s and such.

Lucario is a great candidate for the "mixed attacking" section, especially since you mentioned it in the "countering mixed attackers" section.

Protect is also a great way to counter choice-item users (and is much better than the suggested Torment/Knock Off), as it eases prediction.

Solid guide overall, gj

 

[Jibaku]

I'd like to note that Pursuit's other main use is to trap Cresselia. This is the very reason Cress is dying nowadays. Cress handles a lot of stuff, and losing that due to Pursuit can really dent a team.

 

[Jediment]

Aerodactyl, Scizor, Ambipom, Hitmontop and Dugtrio are also solid Pursuit users. Aerodactyl creates a lot of switches and can do some serious damage to Azelf, Gengar and Starmie. Scizor, Ambipom and Hitmontop all benefit from Technician while using Pursuit (and Pursuit can help Hitmontop clear the field of ghosts for Rapid Spinning). Dugtrio's pursuit is a really good Gengar stopper, helps it beat things that have U-Turn, and is also very useful in Ubers for Lati@s and such.

Lucario is a great candidate for the "mixed attacking" section, especially since you mentioned it in the "countering mixed attackers" section.

Protect is also a great way to counter choice-item users (and is much better than the suggested Torment/Knock Off), as it eases prediction.

Solid guide overall, gj

I mentioned Lucario as a mixed attacker and in fact, I use mixed Lucario myself.

Dugtrio as a pursuit trapper is counterintuitive since it has Arena Trap anyway. Dugtrio isn't good enough for ubers.

Protect is worth mention.

Ambipom is better suited to other things than Pursuit trapping. Hitmontop is possible.

Thank you.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

IMO you guys are overrating single Pokes. My stall team personally has Dugtrio. For every Infernape or Ttar or ChoiceLucario you spam, I can simply just Dugtrio it away, yet still keep my stall. If you actually plan to break a stall team with 'stuff' then you actually have a goal. And by goal I don't mean, 6 random fun things wiht Life Orb on it.

 

[Jediment]

Where in particular did I advocate slapping Life Orb on anything you see? I said mixed attacking is something that's good to do. Just because I advocated it doesn't mean I'm freaking out about it.

 

[User 12783]

Awesome guide but I still plan to use SkarmBliss and then I'm gonna use some special and mixed sweepers to kill other walls lol. Also I don't get why so many people don't use Blaziken anymore it is actually better the only downfall is his speed, but still I'm gonna use him as a mixed sweeper cuz I have balls lol

 

[Fishin]

Scizor, Ambipom and Hitmontop all benefit from Technician while using Pursuit (and Pursuit can help Hitmontop clear the field of ghosts for Rapid Spinning). Dugtrio's pursuit is a really good Gengar stopper, helps it beat things that have U-Turn, and is also very useful in Ubers for Lati@s and such.

I'm pretty sure Technician doesn't boost Pursuit unless the target does NOT switch, though. Not sure if you knew that or not, but I wanted to point it out.

 

[Karrot]

What MoP/Aeroblacktyl is trying to say is that you can't put something on your team just because you want a "wall breaker." If it is not helping your team's overall strategy or goal, it is not worth using.

 

[demozi]

not sure if this has been metioned yet but trapinch can trap and do it decently effective with 100 base attack earthquake and quick attack @ focus sash =)

it would work better with choice band in trick room and do more damage

imo to break a stall team is either something he has not coverage like a trick room wailord to choice spec water spourt whole team paired wth a dugtrio for blissey. also really all u need to break stall is a soild team that can scout other guy make decent attacks.and a little prediction and some crits.

 

[demozi]

Awesome guide but I still plan to use SkarmBliss and then I'm gonna use some special and mixed sweepers to kill other walls lol. Also I don't get why so many people don't use Blaziken anymore it is actually better the only downfall is his speed, but still I'm gonna use him as a mixed sweeper cuz I have balls lol

one poke does it better infernape same typing and larger movepool better base stats. combined with sword dance or nasty plot notably. encore uturn easily pulls of band or specs. Life orb kinda wears him do to much for my liking though it helps to ohko bunch of stuff