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Other Weather Effects(The First true test of the Cap project)

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Well, the reason I say Thunder on the Droughter is unfair is because of how Thunder works in sun/rain.

Drizzler can't switch in on Droughter because when he brings his rain with him, he's getting auto-hit with Thunder.

When Droughter switches in on Drizzler, he has the benefit of lowering Thunder's Accuracy.

EDIT: I suppose it's moot, just don't give it to either. Problem solved. =)
 
If the main reason for this is to bring auto-Sun/Water to the OU metagame, the easiest way would make one only pokemon (pure Normal or Flying would work better IMO) with 1st Trait being Drought and 2nd Trait being Drizzle.
Then you also give then Weather Ball and weather related moves, etc...
 
DougJustDoug said:
Make them both pure Flying, like elemental spirits. "Weather" goes with "Atmosphere" and "Air" and other concepts that work with the general Flying concept. Flying doesn't have to mean "Birds".
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this is a good idea but wouldn't the auto rain team have an advantage since flying is SE against grass and auto sun teams will probably have a lot of grassers.

i personally think a better idea would be a Fire/Dragon and a Water/Steel with the anti weather being Normal
 
I wanted to bring up Fire/Dragon and Water/Steel again.

Fire/Dragon is neutral to water and resists steel.
Water/Steel is neutral to fire and resists dragon.

They are on equal footing for both the weather STAB and the secondary STAB. Solarbeam is better than Thunder in a face off, but Thunder has the added effect, and both of them are terrible moves to use on the switch anyway (2 charge turns or 50% accuracy because of the incoming pokemon).
 
chronostrike said:
I wanted to bring up Fire/Dragon and Water/Steel again.

Fire/Dragon is neutral to water and resists steel.
Water/Steel is neutral to fire and resists dragon.

They are on equal footing for both the weather STAB and the secondary STAB. Solarbeam is better than Thunder in a face off, but Thunder has the added effect, and both of them are terrible moves to use on the switch anyway (2 charge turns or 50% accuracy because of the incoming pokemon).
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Dragon / Fire
3 Weaks: Ground, Rock, Dragon
5 Resists: Fire (4x), Electric, Grass (4x), Bug, Steel

Water / Steel
3 Weak: Electric, Fighting, Ground
12 Resists: Normal, Water, Ice (4x), Flying, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, Steel (2x), Posion (immune)

The resistances aren't exactly the best matched in that respect but I guess the STABs even it out somewhat... What with Fire+Dragon covering everything bar Heatran nuteral and, well, Water is ok but Steel adds nothing in that respect.
 
Mono-Flying for all 2 or all 3 is lame. Drizzer gets Thunder or Thunderbolt, proceeds to win. over other two.

As I said, Fire/Dragon, Water/Dragon, and Pure Dragon act as perfect checks to each other. The Fire and Pure resist Thunder so the Drizzler doesn't have an advantage there, The Drizzler and Droughter can both switch in on their Non-Dragon STABs, and the Null Dragon resists both of them but doesn't have a secondary STAB.

In other words, its risky to switch your weather changer into theirs. If you catch them trying a boosted move they don't do much damage, but if they use a Dragon Move they won't deal as much damage to anything else.

And again, if you really fear Dragon STAB and Auto-Weather together, give these 460 BST. If you really wanted to balance them, make the Pure Dragon's trait Cancel ALL Weather, including switchin weather, for 5 turns. Then not even TTar can rain on your parade.
 
Castform needs more love. It has 420 BST, and it's a weather based pokemon.
We should embrace Hyra's idea and work with it!

[/castform for president]

Either way there needs to be SOME logic to it. I mean, excepting Castform, how the flying fuck does a Normal type get auto rain/sun? I'm also questioning pure flying, as you'd have to come up with an extremly fine concept and art to boot for it to be semi-viable.
 
I'd like to point something out, just so some people aren't let down like in the Woodman's case:

If this is going to be a community project, keep in mind that the chances of having two balanced pokémon types that are more or less equally effective against each other depends on what people finally vote.

I could propose a Castform evo that has both Drizzle lite and Drought lite (Greenhouse) as an ability, and that transforms to the corresponding type depending on weather. That way, the advantages of one versus the other would be nullified, since upon switching both would gain the type of the weather inducing ability of the one who switched in. But, as good as this sounds to me, it is dependent on so many factors that had to be polled, that it would probably not work as I expected.

I mean, this reminds me about Aldaron's and Mekkah's spread for Woodman: It is so carefully planned, that for it to work properly not only their spread had to be chosen, but also should and shouldn't have certain moves and abilities, effectively making this a less democratic process.

Wen we think of an idea for the CAP project, we have to remember that not everything will go exactly according to our plans if we let everything to be decided by polls. The only surefire way to make this two pokémon balanced would be to design them nearly in their entirety by a committee, carefully planning the interactions of every aspect of them. But then, it wouldn't be CAP, at least not as it was conceived.
 
There is obviously a lot of fear from various members of the community around the concept of auto-weather altogether. I wasn't around for the Lvl 1 Groudon testing in ADV, but I suspect it was an eye-opener on the impact of an auto-weather ability and nothing else.

Even if we give our new pokemon sub-500 stats, I'm still not sure I will be an advocate of automatic permanent weather (ie Drizzle and Drought). I will probably advocate some form of weather-lite. I suggested a 5-turn limit in the ability poll, on the assumption that would sufficiently depower the ability to make it viable in OU play. I suspect some people think that is still too much.

I want to hear from the people that absolutely despise the concept of auto-weather in OU. But, I don't want to hear your fears and complaints, I want to hear your solution. Obviously, any poke can sacrifice a moveslot and make the weather change. So, you can't object to weather completely. And I suspect there is some form of weather ability that is so nerfed that it will meet the approval of the most diehard critics.

For example, if we had a 400 BST pokemon with an ability called Sunny Death that conveys a single turn of auto-sun when the pokemon faints --- surely no one could object to that pokemon being overpowered. It's a little absurd to suggest, but here's my point: For everyone that hates all auto-weather, I assume you think that Drought is too much, and my Sunny Death poke is absurdly ineffective. If that is true, that means there is some middle-ground that is acceptable to you.

What is that middle-ground suggestion? Instead of stating all the problems with other people's ideas, I want to hear your solution. I'm very curious what the weather-haters would consider an appropriately-powered weather ability.
 
Deck Knight said:
Mono-Flying for all 2 or all 3 is lame. Drizzer gets Thunder or Thunderbolt, proceeds to win. over other two.

As I said, Fire/Dragon, Water/Dragon, and Pure Dragon act as perfect checks to each other. The Fire and Pure resist Thunder so the Drizzler doesn't have an advantage there, The Drizzler and Droughter can both switch in on their Non-Dragon STABs, and the Null Dragon resists both of them but doesn't have a secondary STAB.

In other words, its risky to switch your weather changer into theirs. If you catch them trying a boosted move they don't do much damage, but if they use a Dragon Move they won't deal as much damage to anything else.

And again, if you really fear Dragon STAB and Auto-Weather together, give these 460 BST. If you really wanted to balance them, make the Pure Dragon's trait Cancel ALL Weather, including switchin weather, for 5 turns. Then not even TTar can rain on your parade.
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Simple, remove Thunder from all their movepools. Thunderbolt is really meh, since all three can use it with equal efficiency.

Your Dragon idea is also nice, it's just that it's not the only way.

@ Time Mage: Castform changes because of his ability. You can't give it an auto-weather ability and still have it change types.
 
Hyra said:
@ Time Mage: Castform changes because of his ability. You can't give it an auto-weather ability and still have it change types.
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Oh, you can. You just have to make it different frm what is it now. In my mind, it would be Forecast+Greenhouse, and Forecast+Drizzle lite. There are other abilities that do several things (Dry Skin, for example), so that shouldn't be a problem. And even if this was unique, as long as we wanted it and Doug could code it... Why not?
 
Time Mage said:
Oh, you can. You just have to make it different frm what is it now. In my mind, it would be Forecast+Greenhouse, and Forecast+Drizzle lite. There are other abilities that do several things (Dry Skin, for example), so that shouldn't be a problem. And even if this was unique, as long as we wanted it and Doug could code it... Why not?
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The coding was the part I was worried about. it's alot to cram into one ability and still have the ability make sense.
 
Well, if we did that, it would seem a bit...contrived. Not to mention that if we end up doing this again (lol), we'll need even more names for these abilities since the transform bit would presumably be Castform/evo exclusive.

Well, I guess they could get the same name if the way they're programmed supports it, but still...
 
Well instead of giving it two abilities we could just make up a new name and cram the transformation, and the weather change into one.

I was thinking something along the lines of

Natural Storm

Natural Sun

Natural Skies

For the water, sun, and clear skies (none) Pokemon.

Simple basic name

Alternatively we could make the transformation/weather effect explained in the Pokedex entry rather than making it an ability.
 
Kira said:
Alternatively we could make the transformation/weather effect explained in the Pokedex entry rather than making it an ability.
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Pokedex doesn't affect a Pokemon in battle. Currently, only Roost, Transform, and the Conversions change Pokemon types in battle. 3 of those are moves and the other is an ability. None are a Pokedex entry.
 
I mean, this reminds me about Aldaron's and Mekkah's spread for Woodman: It is so carefully planned, that for it to work properly not only their spread had to be chosen, but also should and shouldn't have certain moves and abilities, effectively making this a less democratic process.
Click to expand...

Indeed, we assumed this thing would not be given absurd boosts to remove the checks, which even Solar Power could have done. I do not think that this was a flaw in our thinking, but rather we underestimated the amount of people that would support a Drought-like ability. Assuming Grass Knot and Fire Blast/Flamethrower were going to be its main forms of attacking was pretty much a given, I think, that nobody would disagree with.

The Castform evolution idea is nice, but I do think we should toy around with the idea of it not transforming after summoning weather. For example, it could just stay a Normal type.
 
A suggestion for ability names for castform evo (or any auto weather we decide on):
El Niño - rain
La Niña - sun

It's short, simple, and the names perfectly fit the effects.
 
So far.Typing choices people have mention

1.Dragon/Fire and Dragon/Water
2.Dragon/Fire and Water/Steel
3.Mono Normals
4.Mono Flying

DK presented the best idea in terms of balance.Also these pokes don't have to be a counter for each other they just have to be balance poke and be to success switch in and change the weather effect.
 
I agree, these two pokemon don't have to be a direct counter to eachother. I mean after the testing and hype passes how often is an auto-sun team gonna Go up against an auto-rain one. most people will probably have the "weather stopper" (clear skies?) on their team to cancel the weather strategy. Also using sandtream or hail teams will become more popular just as a counter to opposing weather.
 
Luck said:
So far.Typing choices people have mention

1.Dragon/Fire and Dragon/Water
2.Dragon/Fire and Water/Steel
3.Mono Normals
4.Mono Flying

DK presented the best idea in terms of balance.Also these pokes don't have to be a counter for each other they just have to be balance poke and be to success switch in and change the weather effect.
Click to expand...

We could always go with Fire/Grass and Water/Electric as well, and they'd both still counter eahc other, we'd just be adding a second Fire/Grass pokemon into the metagame.

We could make our Drought pokemon Grass and our Drizzle pokemon Electric, but our Drought pokemon would have a lot more weaknesses, even if the Drizzler itself couldn't do that much.

Making them all Normal types could work, but it would be exceedingly boring. How many Normal types do we have again? Making them Pure Dragon makes them counters to each other.

Clearly, there is only one solution:

PURE POISON WEATHER CHANGERS. Get rid of Toxic Spikes and Change the weather. Nothing weak to Fire, Water, Electric, or Grass. They all resist each other's STAB. It's the perfect crime.
 
They shouldn't be counters, but they should be able to switch in on one another fairly easily.

The anti-weather pokemon should be more powerful than the other two since its ability is only useful against a particular set of pokemon (probably a better movepool).
 
PURE POISON WEATHER CHANGERS. Get rid of Toxic Spikes and Change the weather. Nothing weak to Fire, Water, Electric, or Grass. They all resist each other's STAB. It's the perfect crime.
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Good idea tecnically but...
how would this be justified?
 
Hyra said:
Pokedex doesn't affect a Pokemon in battle. Currently, only Roost, Transform, and the Conversions change Pokemon types in battle. 3 of those are moves and the other is an ability. None are a Pokedex entry.
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Last time I checked we are not gamefreak... why the hell do we need to follow their standards?

If we give it mini-drought as an ability, and mention in the pokedex it transforms to match the weather, than who the fuck says we can't do that?

Smogon=/=Gamefreak
 
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