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What If? - Alternate Timelines (AT #10f: Smokomodo - Stats Submissions)

gonna list some options of wildly varying power levels.

Spirit Break is a physical fairy stab that helps us PHeal stall and beat out special attackers.
Leech Seed could be a very interesting recovery move, though may be a bit too good with PHeal AND Shadow Force.
Trapping (preferably one of the temporary ones, things like Jaw Lock/Spirit Shackle would strictly be too strong.) could be interesting to force our opponents to commit into our gameplan
finally, I think Haze helps fill our weakness against setup sweepers.
 
I kind of like the idea of Spite and Spirit Shackle
PP stalling and switch locking are both annoying tools that would synergise well with poison heal and the free turns from shadow force
Taunt also seems like a no brainer
 
TheDuckChris said:
I kind of like the idea of Spite and Spirit Shackle
PP stalling and switch locking are both annoying tools that would synergise well with poison heal and the free turns from shadow force
Taunt also seems like a no brainer
Click to expand...
Obviously Shadow Force synergizes well with Poison Heal, but I worry that giving this Spirit Shackle is going against the original prompt. Besides being obnoxious on a CAP with Poison Heal, it also encourages not actually using the signature move we're giving it? Shadow Force is strong but 80 BP move that traps would be run over 120 BP two-turn move at least a solid minority of the time, and I could see it opting for it more often than not.

So I'm contributing to this on my own, I'm going to second Spirit Break and also going to bring up physical setup for discussion. I think Dragon Dance is too strong for a CAP with this much going for it--great offensive typing and a top tier ability--but I think that giving it a way to boost is more often than not an interesting dynamic for a Poison Heal Pokemon. I'm personally interested in Hone Claws. It's a small boost, but I'm personally worried about giving this speed-boosting (as mentioned already) or giving it a boost to defense via Bulk Up. It also synergizes well with possible coverage moves such as Gunk Shot or Stone Edge, depending on what we want to give it in that department.

Finally: thoughts on Facade? It's a universal move in gen 9 and this is a Poison Heal user, so it's a very natural fit; with that said, I'm personally leaning against giving this Facade to help distinguish its identity from Gliscor (in a hypothetical metagame, of course).
 
I’m going to echo the above support for Hone Claws. Not only is it a setup move without boosting a second stat that could make us rather problematic (Defense and Speed in particular), but it actually makes Play Rough a much more viable option for us thanks to the accuracy boost. I think Spirit Break is still fine to have to go with potentially defensive-oriented sets though. I’m not really sure as to what specific coverage options complement well with our offensive type though, given how the only type we really want to hit super effectively to avoid getting shredded by is Steel. Maybe you go for Cross Chop (since Drain Punch would be toxic af and Close Combat lowers your defenses, which is anti-synergy with Shadow Force imo)? It’s 100 base power and 80% accurate (essentially Fighting Stone Edge, complete with higher crit rate), but with a single Hone Claws it won’t miss. If we lean into Hone Claws as our main setup move, it would make total sense.
 
In terms of offense, I'm of the opinion we most likely won't need reliable coverage moves if we have two reliable STAB moves with the addition of offensive setup, since our STAB combo is only resisted by *checks notes* Pyroar and Grafaiai. To mention what cyclonez_ said earlier, even if we're almost definitely going to have Facade, I struggle to see how this mon would ever need it in combination with its STAB (Replacing Fairy STAB would thunk into Darkrai and Gambit, replacing Ghost STAB thunks into every steel type ever). We definitely don't need other significant ghost type STAB since it distracts from our main concept.

On the topic of physical setup, I'm definitely up for Hone Claws giving us access to an actual reliable physical fairy stab in Play Rough, and I'm also interested in Coil since it is essentially Hone Claws with a defensive increase as well, playing to both this mon's strengths. I understand the fear in giving this mon defensive boosts though, so I'll let others comment whether they find it overbearing. I believe a good comparison is E-Book, which runs Coil (considered a nerf to it's original moveset) alongside similar defensive and offensive potential.

Utility wise I'm a fan of most of the options we've described. Haze is definitely a favorite of mine as it alleviates the fear of setup sweepers spiralling during our turn of invincibility. I'm interested that Toxic hasn't been mentioned yet since it's typically synonymous with Poison Heal, most notable on Gliscor. This creates additional pressure with our turn of invincibility, which should be the goal to fully justify Shadow Force.
 
STAB wise Shadow force should be the only accessible Ghost move aside from maybe Shadow Sneak.
The physical fairy STABs aren't great but Play Rough and Spirit Break are functional. If we were to restrict access to Shadow Ball I'd also be fine with something mixed running Moonblast.

For utility Sub Tect Shadow force is going to be obnoxious enough, but since we're already leaning into being an antisocial fuck I'd like to suggest the addition of a Poison inducing status move. Baneful Bunker, Toxic, Poison Powder or Toxic Thread are all probably obnoxious and funny.
My fave is Toxic Thread, enabling to hit a faster switch in, reducing its speed and proceeding to stack stupid combinations of invulnerability turns, while healing and grinding down their health.
Other annoying and stupid moves that have solid synergy with this combination of moves are Disable or Torment.
 
Okay so it seems like we have a general idea of what we want in terms of defining moves so with that here is the list!
Required: Shadow Force, Play Rough, Spirit Break, Poison inducing move

Optional: Hone Claws, Coil, Fighting coverage, Leech Seed
Click to expand...
Now onto stat submissions! As always we are going to use the ST Saharaja's stat limits and translate the penalties for the new defining moves accordingly...with that here are the limits!
Physical Sweepiness: Limit is 140
Special Sweepiness: Limit is 100
Physical Tankiness: Limit is 130
Special Tankiness: Limit is 130
BSR: Limit is 590
Click to expand...
If accounting for Hone Claws, -5 to PS and -10 to BSR
If accounting for Coil, -20 to PS and -15 to BSR
If accounting for Leech Seed, -5 to BSR
If accounting for Fighting coverage, -15 to BSR
PT + ST Cannot exceed 200
Hard limit of 142 Speed
T-value must be set to 2.5 (this is automatically done on the updated spreadsheet near the bottom of this post)
Click to expand...
I will give the next 80 hours for stat submissions! Have fun!
 
HP 85/Atk 115/Def 50/SpA 50/SpD 100/Spe 50 (BST 450)

PS 87.15
SS 50.01
PT 61.27
ST 107.59
BSR 446.11

Defining Moves: Spirit Break, Toxic Thread, Silk Trap, Toxic Spikes (If you think this is too weak give it Will-O-Wisp or Coil instead of toxic thread and suffer the consequences)

Frankly Poison Heal is just an insane ability, especially on a Mon with good immunities and solid resists as perfectly showcased by Gliscor.
While this has to play more carefully around Hazards it also doesn't have a 4 Time weakness that makes it easier to exploit and one of its two weaknesses has a hard time coming in as it is hit Super effectively by its STAB.
Given this I opted to make the Spread vulnerable to one category of attacks as opposed to a typing.
The phys bulk means that even fully invested it is impossible to stay in on Kingambit. Other strong physical attackers can also break past the defense.
To not be entirely open to these kind of attacks, I opted for Silk Trap as protect move, which allows AT Raja to debuff physical attackers for its teammates.
It also still can deal with difficult mons like Zamazenta or Iron Valiant via Toxic Thread and is a convenient switch in for Arghonaut.
However the main goal for this spread is to be a Specially defensive Tank and Pivot similar to Glowking or Gliscor.
The Special Defense is strong enough to actually sit on mons like Libra (does Shadow Force also deny Doom Desire?), Glowking or Cresceidon alongside the use of Spirit Break. Specifically the SpD allows you to avoid a 2hko from Raging Bolt and the Atk is high enough to K.O. back with Spirit Break.
This also means that Hex Pult and offensive Gholdengo cannot OHKO a max SpD invested EV Spread, while Shadow force is strong enough to OHKO.
With full Attack investment you'd also be able to 2hko Arghonaut.

I opted for a low Speed as that means you can use your bulk and threat of status/strong attacks to force out mons and get chip via Shadow Force, without risking slower Attackers to hit you after.

Toxic Thread and Silk Trap could be interesting to flip the script in some scenarios and allow for even more consecutive healing turns.
 
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WIP

93 HP / 96 Atk / 66 Def / 69 SpA / 107 SpD / 129 Spe [560 BST]

Defining Moves: Shadow Force, Play Rough, Spirit Break, Toxic, Coil, Cross Chop (-20 PS, -30 BSR)

PS: 119.20 (effective limit of 120)
SS: 96.12
PT: 79.86
ST: 119.86
Combined Tankiness: 199.72
BSR: 556.96 (effective limit of 560)

This is primarily intended as a cleaner spread which utilizes flexible stats to pick and choose what it needs team suppose to deal with. 129 Speed outruns Kitsunoh in Gen 9 (while also outrunning Weavile in Gen 8 where it was more viable) at the maximum, but it also allows AT Raja to choose what it needs to hit first versus hit second for Shadow Force Poison Heal shenanigans. Even uninvested, AT Raja always speed creeps non-scarf Gholdengo. The higher special bulk allows AT Raja to avoid the 2HKO from an unboosted Dengo Shadow Ball after Pheal and avoid an OHKO from unboosted Dengo Make It Rain as well as Libra Doom Desire when running 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252+ SpD. In return, a +1 Cross Chop 2HKOs Libra even at 4 Atk EVs (you do 53-63%; at 252 Atk Adamant you do about 74-82%). Ultimately what holds the spread back from becoming absolutely unstoppable is its mediocre physical bulk making it tougher to safely enter the field (especially without defensive EV investment), its lower Attack forcing it to set up before being able to net meaningful offensive benchmarks, and the vulnerability of bulkier spreads to common utility Pokémon in Cresceidon and Kitsunoh. A non setup set is definitely more than possible with these stats as well, as you can run Shadow Force/Spirit Break/Toxic/Protect, but I suspect that would not be as common as setup.
 
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HP 125 / Atk 130 / Def 60 / SpA 70 / SpD 79 / Spe 55 (504 BST)

Defining Moves: Shadow Force, Play Rough, Toxic, Coil (-20 PS, -30 BSR)

PS: 94.59
SS: 63.47
PT: 88.77
ST: 111.20
PT + ST: 199.97 (effective limit of 200)
BSR: 503.18

The main inspiration behind this stat is the way Poison Heal's percentage based healing synergises well with High HP, healing more relative to the damage the mon takes. Surprisingly, no mon in or out of CAP with the ability has access to a massive HP stat. AT Raja's 125 HP combined with an equally titanic attack stat takes full advantage of our strong stab and access to setup with Coil. Our base Defense is pretty low however, mainly to make sure this mon can't take many strong stab hits without our Coil boost. Our Special Defense is relatively higher since we lack access to SpDef boosts, but is still low enough to be threatened by high power super effective hits. This set's low speed is design to tank hits before entering Shadow Force and exiting at the end of the second turn, getting a free turn of Poison Heal thanks to invulnerability.
 
92.63​
104.27​
63.52​
121.46​
79.27​
523.92​
Gliscor:

PS: 104
PT: 121
ST: 79
BSR: 524

Revi spread:
PS: 119.20 (effective limit of 120)
SS: 96.12
PT: 79.86
ST: 119.86
BSR: 556…

Skeptic spread:
PS: 94.59
SS: 63.47
PT: 88.77
ST: 111.20
PT + ST: 199.97 (effective limit of 200)
BSR: 503.18

So y’all are telling me that you want to give this Mon the same bulk as gliscor and a boosting move that boosts its weaker defense and attack? On top of a move that lets you chain three protect turns? In a gen with Tera?
Imagine how fast glisc would be banned if it had bulk up and two usable stabs?
 
We are a little past the deadline, but it is time we vote!

85/115/50/50/100/50 (450 BST) by Amamama
93/96/66/69/107/129 (560 BST) by Reviloja753
125/130/60/70/79/55 (504 BST) by Scepticskep
(Stat spreads link to the associated post to describe why the stats are what they are)

Remember this is a single bold vote! Below is the stat spreads without formatting:

85/115/50/50/100/50 (450 BST) by Amamama
93/96/66/69/107/129 (560 BST) by Reviloja753
125/130/60/70/79/55 (504 BST) by Scepticskep

Voting ends in 24 hours!

EDIT: We will also be voting for AT Chromera's flavor here! And here are the links to the options:

Scepticskep 's Beansquawk
Yaheg 's Fireflighter
YamiTheYin 's Terrarimit
 
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And with an overwhelming amount of support, Amamama has the winning stat spread for AT Saharaja! With that we are gonna be opening up  flavor submissions for AT Saharaja! Unfortunately, when one door opens, another closes and such is the case with the flavor for AT Chromera which YamiTheYin has so graciously provided (and won through the poll!) so congratulations to them!

PSA! Before we move onto the newest AT, I wanna make a slight note for everyone when it comes to flavor subs and that is flavor subs will be open until stats voting for the subsequent AT goes up! This is so flavor for past ATs doesn't get lost in the hubbub of the next AT while also giving those that wanna provide flavor a good bit of time to draw/name/show off their creations and not feel rushed to get something out (as that can cause major burnout). I will update the OP accordingly with this note to the AT project so this doesn't get lost as we continue forging ahead. With that, I now present the next AT!

:miasmaw::sv/miasmaw::miasmaw:
What if Miasmaw was Electric/Dark?

ST Miasmaw's typing was a contentious point of the the past and so this AT explores what it would be if 2nd place had won instead of Miasmaw being the Bug/Dragon we all know and love to hate

With the typing determined we are jumping right into ability and I wanna give us a chance to discuss things other than Neutralizing Gas so for the time being, I will tentatively not be slating Neutralizing Gas.

Gonna give the ability discussion ~72 hours before moving onto the slate (where I may or may not be obligated to slate Neutralizing Gas). Have fun with this discussion and any flavor submissions you plan to post for AT Saharaja!​
 
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