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Which NPC Pokémon battles have been your most enjoyable or most challenging experiences?
- Thread starter Ashenlock
- Start date
Mysterial in PBR is one I always remember being a fun fight. I'm sure it's possible to beat his magnificent Kyogre with a team of non-legendaries, but I've never seriously assembled a proper top-level team in Gen IV the way I did for Gen III so I often go all out with all manner of wacky options - I've used Speed Forme Deoxys against him and god knows what else. Haven't played PBR in ages but maybe one day I'll give it another whirl.
Lucy's Silver fight in Emerald is good fun because it's so easy to reach - she's not particularly tough so it's a great way of farming BP if nothing else. If you bring a good set of counters, she's piss-easy: her entire team really can't do anything against Steel-types. For similar reasons, Tucker's Gold fight is an absolute treat - it's harder to reach, but bring a Shedinja and it's the most fun you'll have fighting a Frontier Brain, guaranteed.
The fight with your rival in RSE on Cycling Road is often one I dreaded when doing quick runs of those games. The secondary stage of their starter can be monstrous if you don't have a good counter, and at that stage of the game even most of the things which theoretically counter Grovyle and Combusken aren't fast or strong enough to stand up to them properly. Marshtomp is a little easier, but still not terrifically easy to take down.
I've often found Karen in GSC a particularly challenging fight, too. In HGSS you'll most likely have stronger options to face her with, but the general lower power of moves available in GSC makes her Umbreon, Murkrow, and Vileplume significantly tougher to take down than they have any right to be, and they'll play havoc with you if they manage to paralyse you or reduce your accuracy. Then her Houndoom's just an absolute monster - I found it incredibly hard to defeat back in the day. That Crunch is a lethal weapon.
Lucy's Silver fight in Emerald is good fun because it's so easy to reach - she's not particularly tough so it's a great way of farming BP if nothing else. If you bring a good set of counters, she's piss-easy: her entire team really can't do anything against Steel-types. For similar reasons, Tucker's Gold fight is an absolute treat - it's harder to reach, but bring a Shedinja and it's the most fun you'll have fighting a Frontier Brain, guaranteed.
The fight with your rival in RSE on Cycling Road is often one I dreaded when doing quick runs of those games. The secondary stage of their starter can be monstrous if you don't have a good counter, and at that stage of the game even most of the things which theoretically counter Grovyle and Combusken aren't fast or strong enough to stand up to them properly. Marshtomp is a little easier, but still not terrifically easy to take down.
I've often found Karen in GSC a particularly challenging fight, too. In HGSS you'll most likely have stronger options to face her with, but the general lower power of moves available in GSC makes her Umbreon, Murkrow, and Vileplume significantly tougher to take down than they have any right to be, and they'll play havoc with you if they manage to paralyse you or reduce your accuracy. Then her Houndoom's just an absolute monster - I found it incredibly hard to defeat back in the day. That Crunch is a lethal weapon.
Fantina is bae 
RSE Tate and Liza are incredible as well.
RSE Tate and Liza are incredible as well.
As someone who’s played (almost) every main series game at least once and has actually completed the main story of every generation since 3 at least once, it’s very hard to impress me with an NPC Pokémon battle, in large part because the games are so easy on account of being made for players of all ages- which for all intents and purposes means these are kids games. Kids games are fun to go back to for nostalgia purposes from time to time, but rarely do these more accessible games have the same level of complexity that’s easier to appreciate as, in my case, a young adult.
I mention all of this because, for me, the difference between a good Pokémon battle and a great Pokémon battle is all within the buildup to the fight. The story writing, the implications left by the characters, how difficult it actually is to reach the battle in question; these are all factors that can make a fight more memorable if handled correctly. Well designed battles have a tendency to also be some of the most enjoyable and/or fun, and if I had to pick one battle from the core series games that does this the best… I’m going to be honest, I’m not sure I could. Simply because none of them have impressed me enough. That isn’t to say that some battles aren’t harder than others, of course. Gym Leaders that specialize in tricky Types to deal with in their respective games for their point in the game come to mind, but even then most main story battles throughout the entire core series don’t make use of stuff like EVs and competitive movesets. The one time that comes to mind when they did do this is unfortunately attached to the rest of BDSP being stupidly easy up to that point, though I suppose it beats Platinum’s Elite Four having no competitive movesets and lower levels at the same time.
But what about the spin-offs? In a sadly far too common case of “slept on spin-off titles do things better than the main series” (this isn’t just a Pokémon problem), there’s quite a few major battles I can think of that have left an impression on me. On the “standard RPG style” side of things, we have Evice from Pokémon Colloseum, a fight that gets a lot of slack because of the brutal difficulty curve but when me and a close friend tried to beat him for the first time not too long ago, I found that navigating this fight felt less like an unfair difficulty spike and more like a fun puzzle to complete. What strategies with Colloseum’s limited options were the best fit? What ways could we use to try and bridge that level gap with as little extra grinding as possible? By comparison, this isn’t like, say, the postgame of Black & White 1 where your team is in the low 50s and all these Trainers have stacked teams in the 60s or higher, or the battle with Red in the Johto games where the difficulty jump is arguably a bit too large, especially in Gen 2 with limited grinding options for that late in the game.
On the “action spin-off” side of things is where things get really interesting, though. The boss fights of the Pokémon Ranger games tend to be elevated by the surprisingly memorable characters who are sending these Pokémon out for you to calm down, and some of these across the trilogy can actually be deceptively challenging to go along with it. I would hardly consider these action games as much as something like Ranger, but some boss fights in the Pokémon Rumble games also come to mind, more specifically the Cobalion battles in the 2011 3DS installment Rumble Blast. You actually fight this Cobalion twice in the game, and the first fight is a very rare instance of a forced loss battle in an officially licensed Pokémon title, which combined with the unironic surprisingly deep lore of a game about chibi toy Pokémon creates a much welcomed desire for the player to continue playing and eventually come out on top later in the game’s main story.
I mention all of this because, for me, the difference between a good Pokémon battle and a great Pokémon battle is all within the buildup to the fight. The story writing, the implications left by the characters, how difficult it actually is to reach the battle in question; these are all factors that can make a fight more memorable if handled correctly. Well designed battles have a tendency to also be some of the most enjoyable and/or fun, and if I had to pick one battle from the core series games that does this the best… I’m going to be honest, I’m not sure I could. Simply because none of them have impressed me enough. That isn’t to say that some battles aren’t harder than others, of course. Gym Leaders that specialize in tricky Types to deal with in their respective games for their point in the game come to mind, but even then most main story battles throughout the entire core series don’t make use of stuff like EVs and competitive movesets. The one time that comes to mind when they did do this is unfortunately attached to the rest of BDSP being stupidly easy up to that point, though I suppose it beats Platinum’s Elite Four having no competitive movesets and lower levels at the same time.
But what about the spin-offs? In a sadly far too common case of “slept on spin-off titles do things better than the main series” (this isn’t just a Pokémon problem), there’s quite a few major battles I can think of that have left an impression on me. On the “standard RPG style” side of things, we have Evice from Pokémon Colloseum, a fight that gets a lot of slack because of the brutal difficulty curve but when me and a close friend tried to beat him for the first time not too long ago, I found that navigating this fight felt less like an unfair difficulty spike and more like a fun puzzle to complete. What strategies with Colloseum’s limited options were the best fit? What ways could we use to try and bridge that level gap with as little extra grinding as possible? By comparison, this isn’t like, say, the postgame of Black & White 1 where your team is in the low 50s and all these Trainers have stacked teams in the 60s or higher, or the battle with Red in the Johto games where the difficulty jump is arguably a bit too large, especially in Gen 2 with limited grinding options for that late in the game.
On the “action spin-off” side of things is where things get really interesting, though. The boss fights of the Pokémon Ranger games tend to be elevated by the surprisingly memorable characters who are sending these Pokémon out for you to calm down, and some of these across the trilogy can actually be deceptively challenging to go along with it. I would hardly consider these action games as much as something like Ranger, but some boss fights in the Pokémon Rumble games also come to mind, more specifically the Cobalion battles in the 2011 3DS installment Rumble Blast. You actually fight this Cobalion twice in the game, and the first fight is a very rare instance of a forced loss battle in an officially licensed Pokémon title, which combined with the unironic surprisingly deep lore of a game about chibi toy Pokémon creates a much welcomed desire for the player to continue playing and eventually come out on top later in the game’s main story.
I really enjoy the Hoenn Gym Leader fights.
The way I play those games with full teams of 6 Pokemon and fighting every available trainer, the level curve just works out perfectly, so that no grinding in random battles is required. You are never overleveled much and with Emerald's fine-tuned gym leader roasters, they often are a fair but still challenging fight. You have to know what you are doing or you can get stomped out of nowhere, and preparing for that and seeing it play out in practise with tons of different teams is really fun.
I honestly don't know how I managed to get through Emerald back as a child because most gym leaders are pretty brutal.
To me that magical sweet spot of challenge and fun among gym leaders is never repeated in the series. It just works out perfectly, no matter which team you use, as long as you plan ahead.
Though, if I had to choose one favorite NPC battle that I enjoyed the most, I would probably go for gen 2 Red. The difficulty is pretty artificial but the nostalgia I have for it back when I first encountered and beat Red on top of Mt. Silver is just too much. I am super biased here but that shit blew my mind as a kid.
The way I play those games with full teams of 6 Pokemon and fighting every available trainer, the level curve just works out perfectly, so that no grinding in random battles is required. You are never overleveled much and with Emerald's fine-tuned gym leader roasters, they often are a fair but still challenging fight. You have to know what you are doing or you can get stomped out of nowhere, and preparing for that and seeing it play out in practise with tons of different teams is really fun.
I honestly don't know how I managed to get through Emerald back as a child because most gym leaders are pretty brutal.
Nosepass is of course a pretty terrible Pokemon. But for a level 15 Pokemon with a strong enough STAB move for that point of the game that also makes you slower, so you take more hits, that also has good bulk and +attack nature, at a time where you really have to fight nearly every trainer if you want to raise two Pokemon to level 13 at least, it is a serious fight that you can't just blast through. If you didn't manage to evolve your starter before the gym fight, you could be in for a surprise defeat.
Brawly is also seriously messed up for such an early gym leader. There are basically almost no trainers between gym 1 and 2 unless you skip ahead to Slateport, so most of your team of 1-3 Pokemon will likely not reach level 19. All this Pokemon also have Bulk Up, and a setup move that boosts two very relevant stats this early is kind of broken. Not to mention all his Pokemon have fantastic STAB moves, with even a Pure Power Focus Punch user. The number of Pokemon that can seriously take on Brawly the first time you get to Dewford Town is really low.
Wattson is also a huge gate keeper for early game because of his Magneton. A Steel type Pokemon with one of the best defensive typings ever, 120 base special, status and a set damage attack that can ignore resists and immunities by gym 3 is messed up. Especially when there are only 2 Pokemon that you can get before him that even have Ground attacks available. It is not a hyperbole to say that Magneton invalidates like 90% of early game Pokemon by itself.
By Flannery you at least have a mostly competent team now. But her ace, Torkoal, is still super dangerous. It has a huge defenese stat, so Rock and Ground attacks don't do as much as you think, and Sunny Day can reduce its Water weakness while boosting up its base 140 STAB Overheats into absolute nukes. It even has a White Herb, so don't think the second Overheat will hurt less. Even some resists get melted by this. Flannery is not as difficult as Brawly or Wattson but she is also a decent challenge.
Norman is no slouche either. While his first Normal Pokemon aren't super stars, their STAB Slashes or Facades are still plently strong. But of course the star of the show is his Slaking, a Pokemon that is basically almost impossible to take on offensively. Literally box legendary stats, Counter to deliver OHKO with its good HP, Yawn so you can't sit on it, and even Faint Attack in case you thought you could wall it with the availble Ghosts you can get before him. Status is also really risky because if you didn't get OHKOed already by its strong STAB Facade, well now you certainly are.
Winona is strangly the only gym leader that is mostly a complete joke and doesn't fit the difficulty of the other gym leaders at all. Her team is so weak and even her ace, Altaria, is piss weak, even with Dragon Dance and Earthquake. You wouldn't belive the number of 2HKOs Altaria misses even at +1.
Tate & Liza are also fairly tough. The gen 3 spread move penality of 50% is absolutely brual and makes what seems to be one of your best weapons in Surf pathetically weak. Couple that with decently fast and strong Psychic types, that carry STAB Psychic, Earthquake that hits all Pokemon on the field for full power, really nastly immunities and typings as well as good support moves in Light Screen, Sunny Day and Hypnosis AND a fantastic setup move in Calm Mind to make it even harder. The number of Pokemon that, no questions asked, have a good Tate & Liza matchup is seriously low.
And then there is Juan, the wannabe Wallace. While most of his team isn't that strong, though STAB Earthquake on Whishcash is nice, his Kingdra is just a massive headache against basically every in-game team. It is only weak to Dragon, a type that close to no Pokemon carry attacks from and the strongest option by this point is the weak Dragon Breath. So basically this thing has on weaknesses, great bulk, Water Ice coverage and Rest. So unless you bring a Pokemon that can at least 3HKO Kingdra to the table, this thing just PP stalls you. It even has Double Team to make it even less likely you break through it. There are close to no Pokemon that do well against Kingdra. Most Pokemon just have to hope to not get screwed over by evasion. Very often there just isn't another strategy.
Brawly is also seriously messed up for such an early gym leader. There are basically almost no trainers between gym 1 and 2 unless you skip ahead to Slateport, so most of your team of 1-3 Pokemon will likely not reach level 19. All this Pokemon also have Bulk Up, and a setup move that boosts two very relevant stats this early is kind of broken. Not to mention all his Pokemon have fantastic STAB moves, with even a Pure Power Focus Punch user. The number of Pokemon that can seriously take on Brawly the first time you get to Dewford Town is really low.
Wattson is also a huge gate keeper for early game because of his Magneton. A Steel type Pokemon with one of the best defensive typings ever, 120 base special, status and a set damage attack that can ignore resists and immunities by gym 3 is messed up. Especially when there are only 2 Pokemon that you can get before him that even have Ground attacks available. It is not a hyperbole to say that Magneton invalidates like 90% of early game Pokemon by itself.
By Flannery you at least have a mostly competent team now. But her ace, Torkoal, is still super dangerous. It has a huge defenese stat, so Rock and Ground attacks don't do as much as you think, and Sunny Day can reduce its Water weakness while boosting up its base 140 STAB Overheats into absolute nukes. It even has a White Herb, so don't think the second Overheat will hurt less. Even some resists get melted by this. Flannery is not as difficult as Brawly or Wattson but she is also a decent challenge.
Norman is no slouche either. While his first Normal Pokemon aren't super stars, their STAB Slashes or Facades are still plently strong. But of course the star of the show is his Slaking, a Pokemon that is basically almost impossible to take on offensively. Literally box legendary stats, Counter to deliver OHKO with its good HP, Yawn so you can't sit on it, and even Faint Attack in case you thought you could wall it with the availble Ghosts you can get before him. Status is also really risky because if you didn't get OHKOed already by its strong STAB Facade, well now you certainly are.
Winona is strangly the only gym leader that is mostly a complete joke and doesn't fit the difficulty of the other gym leaders at all. Her team is so weak and even her ace, Altaria, is piss weak, even with Dragon Dance and Earthquake. You wouldn't belive the number of 2HKOs Altaria misses even at +1.
Tate & Liza are also fairly tough. The gen 3 spread move penality of 50% is absolutely brual and makes what seems to be one of your best weapons in Surf pathetically weak. Couple that with decently fast and strong Psychic types, that carry STAB Psychic, Earthquake that hits all Pokemon on the field for full power, really nastly immunities and typings as well as good support moves in Light Screen, Sunny Day and Hypnosis AND a fantastic setup move in Calm Mind to make it even harder. The number of Pokemon that, no questions asked, have a good Tate & Liza matchup is seriously low.
And then there is Juan, the wannabe Wallace. While most of his team isn't that strong, though STAB Earthquake on Whishcash is nice, his Kingdra is just a massive headache against basically every in-game team. It is only weak to Dragon, a type that close to no Pokemon carry attacks from and the strongest option by this point is the weak Dragon Breath. So basically this thing has on weaknesses, great bulk, Water Ice coverage and Rest. So unless you bring a Pokemon that can at least 3HKO Kingdra to the table, this thing just PP stalls you. It even has Double Team to make it even less likely you break through it. There are close to no Pokemon that do well against Kingdra. Most Pokemon just have to hope to not get screwed over by evasion. Very often there just isn't another strategy.
To me that magical sweet spot of challenge and fun among gym leaders is never repeated in the series. It just works out perfectly, no matter which team you use, as long as you plan ahead.
Though, if I had to choose one favorite NPC battle that I enjoyed the most, I would probably go for gen 2 Red. The difficulty is pretty artificial but the nostalgia I have for it back when I first encountered and beat Red on top of Mt. Silver is just too much. I am super biased here but that shit blew my mind as a kid.
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I respect your opinion on these games- on average I would argue Emerald probably has the hardest selection of eight Gym battles in the core series- but I’m not sure I agree on some of these eight being particularly well designed fights, or at least enough for me to want to play Emerald over ORAS, which to this day I believe to be the better, more underrated game but that’s beside the point. The problems come from Hoenn’s stingy availability for the best available counters for each Gym: there’s either too many options or nowhere near enough, and nowhere in between. After the once obligatory earlygame Rock-Type tutorial Gym, you’ve got an overrated Brawly fight that only uses Fighting-Type attacking moves and a Meditite with some of the worst Trainer AI on this side of Gen 1, an Electric-Type Gym with a difficulty spike not because of levels but because players that chose Mudkip get an unrealistic advantage, the return of Winona’s illegal Altaria carrying her otherwise weak team by Gym #6 standards, and a Water-Type Gym that lazily repeats the strongest Pokémon of the last generation’s final (main story) Gym battle in Kingdra. All four of those examples have the same problem of counters either being too available or not available enough, alongside the “lack of EVs or anything of the sort” problem I discussed in my post.
To Pokémon Emerald’s credit, however, the only three Gym battles I would consider well designed out of the main eight (that is to say, no rematches) are some of the best designed Gym battles in the series. The available counterplay to Flannery’s Fire-Types isn’t nearly as much of an issue as the disparity in how hard Wattson can be, and the inclusion of Sunny Day on some of her team and the fact that this fight is pre-Surf helps this fight not have some of the problems other Fire-Type specialists have with being swept by your in-game team’s obligatory Water Pokémon. Norman’s battle in all of the Hoenn games is built up as early as when the player first reaches Petalburg, and this iteration of the Norman Gym battle actually uses more than just the Slakoth family. Finally, the praises for Tate and Liza’s Emerald iteration(s) have been sung by many over the years, and while I personally think there are other better Double Battles in some of the newer games, this fight is basically as good as you’re going to get for what Gen 3’s main story offers to the player and to these NPCs alike.
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I don't think I have ever struggled so much against a NPC that against the already mentioned rival bsttle in Hoenn's cycling road, excluding the Battle Frontier. For a child, that fight can be brutal if you can't counter their starter.
In terms of enjoying the most, I usually like the ones that actually have somd build up, since, nostalgia aside, it's hard to impress me nowadays. Yet the ones I want to mention are fairly recent:
- Volo is how the BW2 battle with Ghetchis and Kyurem should have been. The second phase of Giratina is a welcomw twist, and all of the time yoy are listening to some kick-ass themes.
- Area Zero is so good that everything in that area was extremely interesting to me, even the forced battles. The very scripted Raidon vs Raidon showdown is still somehow the most hypest moment in the main series, even beating finally facing N with your own Legendary. And the previous battle, while not difficult, is a fun guessing game of what type the Paradoxes are.
- The entire Indigo Disk E4 for actually trying to be a challengue: while I didn't lose to them while self imposing a rule similar to Drayton's trial, they are tons of funs, specially because of the unusual in-game double battles that are not really seen outside of Emeraod. Ironically enough Kieran was the least interesting to me for some reason, bur still fun.
-Similarly, the final battle with Terapagos can be both challenging and fun, even if it's too scripted to my liking and seems to want to copy the fewling of the base game's climax without getting to these heights. Still very satisfying.
For nostalgia purpouses tho, I'm obligued to mention champion N and Ghetchis in BW1, champion Blue and, as badly designed as it is, HGSS Red. The mentioned Cobalion in Rumble Blast is also extremely memorable.
Interestingly, the last games made me realize the best battles for me are the ones with unorthodox bosses like the Titans or Starmobile, and if you combine them with a vanilla battle you gwt thw perfect recipe, like Volo or Arceus itself.
In terms of enjoying the most, I usually like the ones that actually have somd build up, since, nostalgia aside, it's hard to impress me nowadays. Yet the ones I want to mention are fairly recent:
- Volo is how the BW2 battle with Ghetchis and Kyurem should have been. The second phase of Giratina is a welcomw twist, and all of the time yoy are listening to some kick-ass themes.
- Area Zero is so good that everything in that area was extremely interesting to me, even the forced battles. The very scripted Raidon vs Raidon showdown is still somehow the most hypest moment in the main series, even beating finally facing N with your own Legendary. And the previous battle, while not difficult, is a fun guessing game of what type the Paradoxes are.
- The entire Indigo Disk E4 for actually trying to be a challengue: while I didn't lose to them while self imposing a rule similar to Drayton's trial, they are tons of funs, specially because of the unusual in-game double battles that are not really seen outside of Emeraod. Ironically enough Kieran was the least interesting to me for some reason, bur still fun.
-Similarly, the final battle with Terapagos can be both challenging and fun, even if it's too scripted to my liking and seems to want to copy the fewling of the base game's climax without getting to these heights. Still very satisfying.
For nostalgia purpouses tho, I'm obligued to mention champion N and Ghetchis in BW1, champion Blue and, as badly designed as it is, HGSS Red. The mentioned Cobalion in Rumble Blast is also extremely memorable.
Interestingly, the last games made me realize the best battles for me are the ones with unorthodox bosses like the Titans or Starmobile, and if you combine them with a vanilla battle you gwt thw perfect recipe, like Volo or Arceus itself.
I would probably agree that the design of the Hoenn gym leaders isn't among the best in the series. Pokemon as a game series wasn't at the point yet, where Game Freak took balance and "what made sense" for a Pokemon's gameplay performance all too seriously (or at all in some cases). It just happened to work out very well with my playstyle of Emerald that the gym leaders feel rather perfectly challenging to me.
Let it be known that I also played ORAS (was my last Pokemon game in fact), and thought that game was also pretty good. But ORAS is a lot easier with Mega Stones and Latios after gym 5 and offers not much of a challenge imo. It is still a fun game but I would not replay that game again if I wanted a more challenging game.
I am the first to admit that some early game Pokemon or even some parts of the early game entierly are somewhat janky. The Seadot and Lotad line come to mind. There certainly should have been something done about that. But to me there is some kind of charm about using these and trying to get the most out of unfortunate Pokemon. I played Black 1 for the first time this year and found it not fun because most Pokemon are so much more polished and functional now (among other issues). But that could certainly be the nostaliga speaking out of this old person now.
And I also think Juan is an unnecessary retcon. They tried to repeat the Red fight for gen 3 but that trick only works once and kicking Steven out of the Pokemon Leauge was a huge mistake. We didn't need three Water bosses in Archie, Juan and Wallace for the end game.
I don't consider the lack of EVs much of a problem because they basicaly did this anyway with natures and number of IVs on gym leader Pokemon. I don't think much more is needed for the main story. If that scratches you itch, then there was always the Battle Frontier.
Also don't bully Brawly's Meditite. It only has Focus Punch as an attacking move, so if it smells an OHKO it will constantly go for it. It is more the moveset than the AI. But I guess if the moveset were better than the fight would be even harder.
I also think Norman is the best designed gym leader for the story aspect. I find it curious that this idea was never attempted again when it worked out so well. I like how you have contact with him very early, but he also wasn't made the champion that waits for you at the end of the game, but rather a gym leader at the midpoint of the game. You now are stronger than your parents but there is still a long way to go. I like that aspect.
Funnily enough I actually think Flannery doesn't have that much good balance because Rock, Ground and Water attacks are mostly only available after you defeat her. The two Rock types available are Geodude and Aron. Aron gets melted because it doesn't resist Fire and even Geodude has to be careful with her Fire nukes. All the Ground types are locked in the desert which you can only enter after you cleared her gym. And without Surf, very few Pokemon have Water STAB before that (Lombre moment).
With how well Emerlad expaned the double battle concept across the region, Tate & Liza feel like a very well rounded sent off into the postgame. That is certainly only for this gen, though. I remember how much different the vibe of them in ORAS was because so many mechanics around them had changed.
I can see how you are much more story oriented and I can respect and understand your choice therefore. But to me the story of Pokemon games never really mattered that much. A decent background story was enoug for me because frankly Game Freak was never all that good in the story aspect imo.
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SV had several for me.
I wandered into Mela like a lot of people did, much earlier than the game 'expects' you to and despite only having 3 Pokemon hey turns out when things have level advantage on you stuff gets hairy in a hurry. For comedy, though, I didn't go back to get Fidough for my party until like a gym & a half after this and thus missed my only real opportunity to make use of well baked body.
All of the "end of route" fights had some nice teeth to them for me. It had just the right amount of friction for the most part, which is what I want out of these games (not surprisingly, the level bumps made that friction possible) but I want to highlight 2 of them:
Arven. He was the first one I did iirc, so the level difference was most noticeable though I wasn't SUPER far off or anything. His team on paper doesn't seem that great, but it's surprisingly bulky and can hit pretty hard. His mabosstiff in particular I had to cycle through for a bit, which felt very fitting. Arven never presents himself as a battler and his path as a whole isn't battle heavy by design, but he really makes a good showing of himself while also basically handicapping himself with a theme team. I took quite a bit of damage
And then Clavell, genuinely, almost wrecked me. I chose Skeledirge so I had to deal with his Quaquaval team. On paper this team doesnt seem thaaaaat threatening (lots of slow-ish Pokemon with various weaknesses) but by god he managed to just eat through a fair chunk of my team's health and then. The Quaquaval happened. This thing just started wrecking house, tera boosted aqua steps are no joke and the speed boost gets out of hand real quick. I had to spend some time with revives to intimidate it down to more manageable levels before finally taking it out.
Then as for DLC
End of TM Kieren (Post Game version). This is just a good team IMO. There was some brief back & forth here and everything. It's funny though, my friend just breezed through this fight and the next. I dunno, guess it just comes down to team composition of your own huh? I was about even with his levels, iirc.
The Ogerpon battle gave me some trouble. I think Arboliva did not help any, but Ogerpon was really able to run a small train on me for a fair chunk of the phases. A four phase boss fight is just really cool in general, incidentally. Very good vibes.
Indigo Disk had lots of nice fights in them but I want to skip ahead to the Terapagos battle which was just. Really really hard, for some reason. I cannot explain why I had trouble with this thing but I almost lost even once Kieren got into the battle. There was just something I couldn't get around, maybe it was type match ups, maybe it wasn't tera-ing at the right time, who knows. It definitely added to the threatening vibe of the battle ,at least.
Also for SWSH can I just shoutout to the inexpcliable double battle at the end of Route 8. Even with exp share (despite my best efforts otherwise) starting to roar these two...have such a bizarrely competent team that they may as well have been a gym leader?
Excadrill/Hippopotas Lead. Lucario & Perrserker in the back. I think I remember the trainer data saying the Perrserker even has Steely Spirit?
I didn't wipe out or anything but there was a definite step up here that got me off on the wrong foot and I had to actually readjust myself to deal with it. Generally rando trainers only give you trouble as a battle of attrition or you just chose your Pokemon very poorly; that doesn't just apply to SWSH (the other trainers on this route have Togedemaru, Dreepy, Vullaby, Roselia & Hattrem) it applies to every game, but not these two. There's exactly 3 random trainers I actively recall over the years and it's this duo and the random 2 random 6-team post game veterans in BW1(/2)
I wandered into Mela like a lot of people did, much earlier than the game 'expects' you to and despite only having 3 Pokemon hey turns out when things have level advantage on you stuff gets hairy in a hurry. For comedy, though, I didn't go back to get Fidough for my party until like a gym & a half after this and thus missed my only real opportunity to make use of well baked body.
All of the "end of route" fights had some nice teeth to them for me. It had just the right amount of friction for the most part, which is what I want out of these games (not surprisingly, the level bumps made that friction possible) but I want to highlight 2 of them:
Arven. He was the first one I did iirc, so the level difference was most noticeable though I wasn't SUPER far off or anything. His team on paper doesn't seem that great, but it's surprisingly bulky and can hit pretty hard. His mabosstiff in particular I had to cycle through for a bit, which felt very fitting. Arven never presents himself as a battler and his path as a whole isn't battle heavy by design, but he really makes a good showing of himself while also basically handicapping himself with a theme team. I took quite a bit of damage
And then Clavell, genuinely, almost wrecked me. I chose Skeledirge so I had to deal with his Quaquaval team. On paper this team doesnt seem thaaaaat threatening (lots of slow-ish Pokemon with various weaknesses) but by god he managed to just eat through a fair chunk of my team's health and then. The Quaquaval happened. This thing just started wrecking house, tera boosted aqua steps are no joke and the speed boost gets out of hand real quick. I had to spend some time with revives to intimidate it down to more manageable levels before finally taking it out.
Then as for DLC
End of TM Kieren (Post Game version). This is just a good team IMO. There was some brief back & forth here and everything. It's funny though, my friend just breezed through this fight and the next. I dunno, guess it just comes down to team composition of your own huh? I was about even with his levels, iirc.
The Ogerpon battle gave me some trouble. I think Arboliva did not help any, but Ogerpon was really able to run a small train on me for a fair chunk of the phases. A four phase boss fight is just really cool in general, incidentally. Very good vibes.
Indigo Disk had lots of nice fights in them but I want to skip ahead to the Terapagos battle which was just. Really really hard, for some reason. I cannot explain why I had trouble with this thing but I almost lost even once Kieren got into the battle. There was just something I couldn't get around, maybe it was type match ups, maybe it wasn't tera-ing at the right time, who knows. It definitely added to the threatening vibe of the battle ,at least.
Also for SWSH can I just shoutout to the inexpcliable double battle at the end of Route 8. Even with exp share (despite my best efforts otherwise) starting to roar these two...have such a bizarrely competent team that they may as well have been a gym leader?
Excadrill/Hippopotas Lead. Lucario & Perrserker in the back. I think I remember the trainer data saying the Perrserker even has Steely Spirit?
I didn't wipe out or anything but there was a definite step up here that got me off on the wrong foot and I had to actually readjust myself to deal with it. Generally rando trainers only give you trouble as a battle of attrition or you just chose your Pokemon very poorly; that doesn't just apply to SWSH (the other trainers on this route have Togedemaru, Dreepy, Vullaby, Roselia & Hattrem) it applies to every game, but not these two. There's exactly 3 random trainers I actively recall over the years and it's this duo and the random 2 random 6-team post game veterans in BW1(/2)
I’m saying what I’m about to say as someone who, like you said, has a soft spot for a good story in games and also really likes to write in my free time: this is a fantastic response on all fronts. Your post is teaching me things, too. That is to say, I can tell you have your own enthusiasm for the deeper understanding of gameplay in these Pokémon games, and I can absolutely see where Emerald’s appeal may come from for you. The great thing about Hoenn for me is that, while most regions try and decide between story and gameplay, Hoenn has strong moments in both categories in both Gen 3 and Gen 6. In regards to what your post went over: I also understand the appeal of the, quote, “actually difficult stuff” being saved for postgame in these games, more specifically that part you said about the Battle Frontier.
I’ll admit right here and now, much of my preference for ORAS over Gen 3 Hoenn comes from nostalgia, because they did significantly tone down the difficulty of those games and the major battles do feel noticeably less satisfying and memorable as a result. Tate and Liza in particular got severely nerfed in the generational transition, but at least Juan’s gone
Nonetheless I hope this post finds you well and that you continue to pursue whatever it is you enjoy in gaming. Incidentally, I’ve been trying to branch out to other story-driven games, taking the route of “following” them to study what I might like before considering actually playing them. It just so happens that some “kids games” can beat the lazy writing allegations, and even have engaging battles to boot.Edit: I would like to formally apologize to Brawly’s Meditite for my earlier comments, it was screwed over by the developers from the start and any issues I have with this Pokémon’s implementation are not its fault, especially from an in-universe perspective. Still not sure how I feel about Juan though; maybe there’s something I’m missing here but he’s missing that extra factor that makes him memorable for me. In his defense, it’s also not Juan’s fault that Kingdra might be one of my least favorite Pokémon just because of how obnoxious it was prior to Gen 6. There was a time when I was getting wiped by Kingdra frequently enough to where it reminded me of a specific YouTuber who once complained about the Pokémon in a Top 10 video, which successfully gaslit me into thinking I had an ongoing Kingdra Curse of some kind.
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Ok this is gonna be quite a cliché but Kieran in The Indigo Disc (Blueberry Academy). Period.
It was the only battle ever where it really felt like something personal and the difficulty was pretty high. I actually had to make use of my knowledge gained thanks to Showdown and Smogon in general to make an actual competitive team and that was what made it actually enjoyable for someone who has been around for decades now (I started with the original Diamond).
+ the theme is a banger
+ I brought Ogerpon to the battle without knowing the special interaction, so it was surprising and satisfying at the same time.
It was the only battle ever where it really felt like something personal and the difficulty was pretty high. I actually had to make use of my knowledge gained thanks to Showdown and Smogon in general to make an actual competitive team and that was what made it actually enjoyable for someone who has been around for decades now (I started with the original Diamond).
+ the theme is a banger
+ I brought Ogerpon to the battle without knowing the special interaction, so it was surprising and satisfying at the same time.
Kieran coincidentally reminds me of some of Unova’s younger, aspiring Trainers, fitting given the Blueberry Academy’s location. Unfortunately for him, my overall disappointment with The Indigo Disk may have overshadowed his character development for me. Not only is the battle pretty challenging especially if you opt to play with a level cap of your own accord, but thematically he reminds me of what Cheren could have been in the Unova games should the developers have taken his character in Black & White 1 down a different path on his initial journey to want to become the Champion. He also reminds me of that kind of “young prodigy” vibe I think the developers were going for with Iris in Black & White 2, albeit with different motivations for training. Kind of like what I said about Juan in that post edit, I just feel like he’s missing something to make him truly memorable. As it stands, he feels too similar to these other character examples to feel like his own person to me.
Path of Titans was the first if tge stories me and my then partner did and it was indeed kind of funny to see Arven of all people use high leveled mons. It's very cool that he uses a team that has been built during your adventure with him and he was indeed the hardest if the trio, as we didn't have any problems with Nemona and Penny is incredibly easy after Clavell, who can easily become a threat if you let his Pomteageist build up. The Quaquaval in particular can be a menace for inexperienced players, it surprised me and wrecked my little brother's team on his first try. I still love they did something interesting with the usually forgotten third starter *and* the actual Professor-like figure of the game.
Oh my god how did my dumb ass forget these two
If you need reminding, these two come right at the end of the long stretch of road that is Sinnoh Route 215 and they're positioned in such a way that it's extremely easy to blunder between them and have them take you on as a pair.
Glameow is mostly free experience, but Monferno is a brutally tough foe that will put the hurt on you. Then comes Gyarados! It's a truly unpleasant foe and even though this route is perpetually raining it's unlikely you have a Pokemon with Thunder. Even if you have a Luxio in your party Intimidate will blunt its Electric moves. Kadabra is either really tough or really easy, there's no middle ground with it.
It's a wickedly brutal fight to catch you unawares before you reach Veilstone City but I actually kinda like that they did this - it's rare that a route will end with a "boss" (though I liked the similar concept the Alola games did where you had to prove yourself by beating all the trainers on one route before the top trainer would agree to fight you).
Platinum actually nerfed these two pretty significantly: even though they've got three Pokemon each now, their new team compositions are far less threatening and the significantly better range of Pokemon available to you in Platinum mean you'll likely have a much easier time of it in general.
I'd also echo Norman's gym being far more fun and interesting in Emerald than it is in the other games. I already wrote a long bit on this in another thread ages ago so I'll repost it rather than regurgitate the same thoughts.
If you need reminding, these two come right at the end of the long stretch of road that is Sinnoh Route 215 and they're positioned in such a way that it's extremely easy to blunder between them and have them take you on as a pair.
Glameow is mostly free experience, but Monferno is a brutally tough foe that will put the hurt on you. Then comes Gyarados! It's a truly unpleasant foe and even though this route is perpetually raining it's unlikely you have a Pokemon with Thunder. Even if you have a Luxio in your party Intimidate will blunt its Electric moves. Kadabra is either really tough or really easy, there's no middle ground with it.
It's a wickedly brutal fight to catch you unawares before you reach Veilstone City but I actually kinda like that they did this - it's rare that a route will end with a "boss" (though I liked the similar concept the Alola games did where you had to prove yourself by beating all the trainers on one route before the top trainer would agree to fight you).
Platinum actually nerfed these two pretty significantly: even though they've got three Pokemon each now, their new team compositions are far less threatening and the significantly better range of Pokemon available to you in Platinum mean you'll likely have a much easier time of it in general.
I'd also echo Norman's gym being far more fun and interesting in Emerald than it is in the other games. I already wrote a long bit on this in another thread ages ago so I'll repost it rather than regurgitate the same thoughts.
I need to stand up for the rushed and outsourced piece made to advertise a game I don't want.
I was using a slower and grindier playstyle during BDSP. The fact that it was generally suboptimal and that I took frequent KOs ended up preventing the exp all and forced affection from being overbearing. I began the final battle with Cyrus much the same as with any other major fight: by setting up Stealth Rock. And then something unexpected happened: Honchkrow used defog to clear my hazard.
In addition to the AI being able to recognize hazards as a threat and how to deal with them, I was also hugely impressed by the dev team putting that in Honchkrow's moveset in the first place. At some level, they must have expected someone to be using hazards. And unlike a lot of RPG boss design, where going off the default path of just statchecking the player is arbitrarily shut down *cough*Starmobiles, for example*cough*, this was a completely fair method of giving an extra puzzle to those who did.
I was using a slower and grindier playstyle during BDSP. The fact that it was generally suboptimal and that I took frequent KOs ended up preventing the exp all and forced affection from being overbearing. I began the final battle with Cyrus much the same as with any other major fight: by setting up Stealth Rock. And then something unexpected happened: Honchkrow used defog to clear my hazard.
In addition to the AI being able to recognize hazards as a threat and how to deal with them, I was also hugely impressed by the dev team putting that in Honchkrow's moveset in the first place. At some level, they must have expected someone to be using hazards. And unlike a lot of RPG boss design, where going off the default path of just statchecking the player is arbitrarily shut down *cough*Starmobiles, for example*cough*, this was a completely fair method of giving an extra puzzle to those who did.
The 7 star tera raids of SV have been a pleasant surprise of making a single enemy encounter threatening for endgame optimized mons, especially compared to the SWSH equivalents with little solo agency. Instead of facing endless random opponents, you fight one fine tuned boss that doesn't immediately fall over to boosting and sweeping, rewarding having a mix of bulk/sustain through a long battle, debuffs, and overkill damage. The general concept of tera raids is also an interesting balance to considering the random type matchups, though most of the time they are simple enough to handle, but the standout fights that can naturally boost are still pretty infamous.
I do play modern games fully blind and on set (though no other restriction), and try to use whatever pokemon i feel like using rather than look for a specific team archetype, so *usually* I don't run into difficulties in the battles.
That said, off modern titles, 4 battles bonked my ass pretty notably
In BDSP, I went in blind as usual even though i knew that some trainers had romhack level comps. Having never played gen 4 games, i didn't actually know what to expect in general other than "Cynthia has a Garchomp", I struggled against several of the gym leaders, but as expected, Cynthia herself tore me a new behind. Her team in BDSP is *really* good, and unironically the only reason I even won was cause my Gastrodon decided to do a happiness "live with 1 hp" and actually was able to fire a second ice beam (I was NOT expecting the Yache berry at all).
Overally a fun game to play blind tbh, the actual challenge of difficult gym leaders is fun once in a while, actually had to turn on my brain for once.
In SV, that was actually 3 battles. Once more, I went blind, and for DLCs, I purposely "banked" my team after beating the main game story so I could use them right away without having to "make a new team from scratch" like I had to for SwSh.
My SV run had the extra self-imposure to not use any TM i'd get from raids, since obviously those could be gamebreakingly strong to obtain early and that'd have made the game a bit too much of a cakewalk. So I was mostly off just regularly caught pokemon (sometimes in raid) with nothing particularly fancy other than the occasional egg move passed via Mirror Herb or story-obtained TM. I also played on ""set"", aka i would not switch in battle after a KO since the Set option is no longer a thing.
First struggle was Atticus during the main story. After seeing he was poison type, I felt pretty confident going in with my couple psychic types. I did not have any ground type at the time, nor any real ground coverage unless you're accounting some random Bulldoze somewhere.
It was PAIN. I actually got KOd twice. I had absolutely nothing to hit his Skunktank and Revavroom supereffectively, and both had dark type attacks for my psychic mons (I don't quite remind *what* i had, but i did have 2 psychic types, and I definitely had Azumarill which also was not helping at all. Oh and I obviously had Meowscarada so that's another basically deadweight mon). I actually had to go back and catch something in the desert to beat it cause i just couldn't with my team. Ironically, I also had a Revavroom myself... which was also complete deadweight against him!
His team per se isnt anything special but 2 of his team nullifying Psychic types means that if you don't actually have a ground type, the fight is pretty rough, and the starmobile's Toxic Debris definitely was not helping. Giving the starmobile Flame Charge that both lets it deal with Steel types and make up for Spin Out speed drop was also a clever design, as my "plan" to deal with it was to just eat a couple of them and then KO it while outspeeding, which obviously was not a option.
The second struggle was in the first DLC, and specifically the battle against Ogerpon herself. I was not expecting the quadruple fight, so I blew tera and everything against the first form... and then was like "wdym different typing". With my team of lvl 60s, Ogerpon was not easy, I ended up having to live through it with potions until Grassy Terrain expired, use the recast to attack, repeat.
It's a good fight. It's actually not that rough, even though it's... well... Ogerpon, it's not exactly hard to wall and you can use items so nothing you can't stall. I really like the "emotional investment" of how every Mask also is linked to one of Ogerpon's fond memories, with the Teal Mask itself being the link to her original owner. Good music too.
And the final one... was against Crispin of all people, in the Indigo Disk. I used the same team of the other DLC, but actually carried Ogerpon with me as well, water Ogerpon cause I wanted a strong followme user for the double battles.
The Indigo Disk double battles are actually pretty good, all of them, both the gym leaders and the random battles you run into, most of them showcase doubles interactions or have an actual battle plan which, similarly to BDSP, is a nice breath of fresh air. Combined with the way higher level of this DLC, around 80, meaning every Pokemon would have full access to their arsenal compared to your usual regular playthrough, made for good battles.
But that cook... his team happened to basically almost hardcounter mine. Exeggutor expecially was a huge torn in my side cause I went in expecting a full sun team and what I was not expecting was a bulky grass type with Harvest that threw a massive middle finger to my ogerpon water. Nor I was expecting Talonflame to be a Sun setter made to kill itself after setting up sun (no seriously who let them cook). It was brutal, i got massacred and i loved it. The other E4 were also somewhat challenging (except Drayton, poor pal, my team had 2 fairies and i literally ran him over), the story as we know is kinda whatever but the battles themselves are good.
I wouldn't mind if GameFreaks keeps throwing those high level "good team" challenges in the DLC story. It's nice, though if you havent actually kept your team from the start or play through all the game + dlc in a row (which i did for Scarlet recently, as my first playthroughs were on Violet), you would just roll over them with lvl 100s.
Honorary mention: the 4 major story fights of SwSh and all of SV and its DLC, as in, the fight against Eternatus, the AI Professor, Ogerpon, and Terapagos.
These aren't particularly hard fights, in fact 2 of those have you on training wheels pretty much, but they're very well executed design wise, and are very hard to forget due to the long lasting impression (consider them my "this is what i pay for" moment).
I made a lenghty post about the Eternatus fight so I won't do it again, but tldr the build up of Leon failing but still protecting the player, the apparently impossible fight with the two legendary heroes coming to save the day and then be gone just as they came once their job was done, on top of a pretty memorable BGM to go with it, leave for a pretty amazing impression.
The AI professor battle follows a similar trend, once more the buildup of the descent into Area Zero, finding out the actually tragic story of the professor, and the AI itself that wants to amend to the errors of its creator but knows they will be forced to fight you, and then the fight (once more, with an epic soundtrack) with the AI literally pulling pokemon (some of which you know nothing about) from the other timeline in order to defeat you, and then the final bit where they go "fuck the rules and fuck your pokeballs" and you're left with your Agias (heh) and they finally accept that they are not weak, that they can fight, and save the day. Great moment, great music, i wish i could say great FPS but that's the one thing it didnt have but heh, 9 out of 10.
Ogerpon I mentioned above, it feels like a culmination of the travel toghether, and of Ogerpon herself showing you that she isn't playing around and that you have to earn her trust if you want her. Wish they did more with Kieran and Ogerpon though, all we got was a singular sentence in his fight in Indigo Disk if you bring over Ogerpon. Bit of a missed opportunity there.
And finally, Terapagos. I didn't include it in my list above, but I did actually struggle there, cause my pokemon team at that time was actually not well equipped to deal with the constant "attack a few time, terastal and bonk boss" it requires, but since I was rocking a Clefable, it was able to more or less just keep eating hits and healing back up and *eventually* win. It's once more a good closure for the story, albeith the story itself is... very forced and not as good as the other 3. Still, I love what they did with Carmine and Kieran *in the battle specifically*, even though nowadays I know that Carmine's turns are fully scripted, back when I played it blind the whole concept of Carmine being on her last pokemon and still trying her best to help you (which she consider the better trainer) and then give a massive wake up call to his brother that maybe he needs to stop sulking and actually show that he's capable, and Kieran finally coming to help (though by the time he comes you have basically already won).
What can I say I am a sucker for this kind of "story heavy" fights. I don't even care of their difficulty, these battles will always leave a longer memory and impression to me than "this boss had romhack level team". In the end, the only reason I still remind of the Cynthia episode was cause of the whole "i would have lost if Gastrodon didn't decide he loves me", it wasn't exactly the only battle I struggled against in that playthrough but was the only one that stuck cause of something that ironically was not related to the boss at all.
That said, off modern titles, 4 battles bonked my ass pretty notably
In BDSP, I went in blind as usual even though i knew that some trainers had romhack level comps. Having never played gen 4 games, i didn't actually know what to expect in general other than "Cynthia has a Garchomp", I struggled against several of the gym leaders, but as expected, Cynthia herself tore me a new behind. Her team in BDSP is *really* good, and unironically the only reason I even won was cause my Gastrodon decided to do a happiness "live with 1 hp" and actually was able to fire a second ice beam (I was NOT expecting the Yache berry at all).
Overally a fun game to play blind tbh, the actual challenge of difficult gym leaders is fun once in a while, actually had to turn on my brain for once.
In SV, that was actually 3 battles. Once more, I went blind, and for DLCs, I purposely "banked" my team after beating the main game story so I could use them right away without having to "make a new team from scratch" like I had to for SwSh.
My SV run had the extra self-imposure to not use any TM i'd get from raids, since obviously those could be gamebreakingly strong to obtain early and that'd have made the game a bit too much of a cakewalk. So I was mostly off just regularly caught pokemon (sometimes in raid) with nothing particularly fancy other than the occasional egg move passed via Mirror Herb or story-obtained TM. I also played on ""set"", aka i would not switch in battle after a KO since the Set option is no longer a thing.
First struggle was Atticus during the main story. After seeing he was poison type, I felt pretty confident going in with my couple psychic types. I did not have any ground type at the time, nor any real ground coverage unless you're accounting some random Bulldoze somewhere.
It was PAIN. I actually got KOd twice. I had absolutely nothing to hit his Skunktank and Revavroom supereffectively, and both had dark type attacks for my psychic mons (I don't quite remind *what* i had, but i did have 2 psychic types, and I definitely had Azumarill which also was not helping at all. Oh and I obviously had Meowscarada so that's another basically deadweight mon). I actually had to go back and catch something in the desert to beat it cause i just couldn't with my team. Ironically, I also had a Revavroom myself... which was also complete deadweight against him!
His team per se isnt anything special but 2 of his team nullifying Psychic types means that if you don't actually have a ground type, the fight is pretty rough, and the starmobile's Toxic Debris definitely was not helping. Giving the starmobile Flame Charge that both lets it deal with Steel types and make up for Spin Out speed drop was also a clever design, as my "plan" to deal with it was to just eat a couple of them and then KO it while outspeeding, which obviously was not a option.
The second struggle was in the first DLC, and specifically the battle against Ogerpon herself. I was not expecting the quadruple fight, so I blew tera and everything against the first form... and then was like "wdym different typing". With my team of lvl 60s, Ogerpon was not easy, I ended up having to live through it with potions until Grassy Terrain expired, use the recast to attack, repeat.
It's a good fight. It's actually not that rough, even though it's... well... Ogerpon, it's not exactly hard to wall and you can use items so nothing you can't stall. I really like the "emotional investment" of how every Mask also is linked to one of Ogerpon's fond memories, with the Teal Mask itself being the link to her original owner. Good music too.
And the final one... was against Crispin of all people, in the Indigo Disk. I used the same team of the other DLC, but actually carried Ogerpon with me as well, water Ogerpon cause I wanted a strong followme user for the double battles.
The Indigo Disk double battles are actually pretty good, all of them, both the gym leaders and the random battles you run into, most of them showcase doubles interactions or have an actual battle plan which, similarly to BDSP, is a nice breath of fresh air. Combined with the way higher level of this DLC, around 80, meaning every Pokemon would have full access to their arsenal compared to your usual regular playthrough, made for good battles.
But that cook... his team happened to basically almost hardcounter mine. Exeggutor expecially was a huge torn in my side cause I went in expecting a full sun team and what I was not expecting was a bulky grass type with Harvest that threw a massive middle finger to my ogerpon water. Nor I was expecting Talonflame to be a Sun setter made to kill itself after setting up sun (no seriously who let them cook). It was brutal, i got massacred and i loved it. The other E4 were also somewhat challenging (except Drayton, poor pal, my team had 2 fairies and i literally ran him over), the story as we know is kinda whatever but the battles themselves are good.
I wouldn't mind if GameFreaks keeps throwing those high level "good team" challenges in the DLC story. It's nice, though if you havent actually kept your team from the start or play through all the game + dlc in a row (which i did for Scarlet recently, as my first playthroughs were on Violet), you would just roll over them with lvl 100s.
Honorary mention: the 4 major story fights of SwSh and all of SV and its DLC, as in, the fight against Eternatus, the AI Professor, Ogerpon, and Terapagos.
These aren't particularly hard fights, in fact 2 of those have you on training wheels pretty much, but they're very well executed design wise, and are very hard to forget due to the long lasting impression (consider them my "this is what i pay for" moment).
I made a lenghty post about the Eternatus fight so I won't do it again, but tldr the build up of Leon failing but still protecting the player, the apparently impossible fight with the two legendary heroes coming to save the day and then be gone just as they came once their job was done, on top of a pretty memorable BGM to go with it, leave for a pretty amazing impression.
The AI professor battle follows a similar trend, once more the buildup of the descent into Area Zero, finding out the actually tragic story of the professor, and the AI itself that wants to amend to the errors of its creator but knows they will be forced to fight you, and then the fight (once more, with an epic soundtrack) with the AI literally pulling pokemon (some of which you know nothing about) from the other timeline in order to defeat you, and then the final bit where they go "fuck the rules and fuck your pokeballs" and you're left with your Agias (heh) and they finally accept that they are not weak, that they can fight, and save the day. Great moment, great music, i wish i could say great FPS but that's the one thing it didnt have but heh, 9 out of 10.
Ogerpon I mentioned above, it feels like a culmination of the travel toghether, and of Ogerpon herself showing you that she isn't playing around and that you have to earn her trust if you want her. Wish they did more with Kieran and Ogerpon though, all we got was a singular sentence in his fight in Indigo Disk if you bring over Ogerpon. Bit of a missed opportunity there.
And finally, Terapagos. I didn't include it in my list above, but I did actually struggle there, cause my pokemon team at that time was actually not well equipped to deal with the constant "attack a few time, terastal and bonk boss" it requires, but since I was rocking a Clefable, it was able to more or less just keep eating hits and healing back up and *eventually* win. It's once more a good closure for the story, albeith the story itself is... very forced and not as good as the other 3. Still, I love what they did with Carmine and Kieran *in the battle specifically*, even though nowadays I know that Carmine's turns are fully scripted, back when I played it blind the whole concept of Carmine being on her last pokemon and still trying her best to help you (which she consider the better trainer) and then give a massive wake up call to his brother that maybe he needs to stop sulking and actually show that he's capable, and Kieran finally coming to help (though by the time he comes you have basically already won).
What can I say I am a sucker for this kind of "story heavy" fights. I don't even care of their difficulty, these battles will always leave a longer memory and impression to me than "this boss had romhack level team". In the end, the only reason I still remind of the Cynthia episode was cause of the whole "i would have lost if Gastrodon didn't decide he loves me", it wasn't exactly the only battle I struggled against in that playthrough but was the only one that stuck cause of something that ironically was not related to the boss at all.
Oh yeah, I forgot these two Emerald exclusive trainers exist.
Try not getting stomped literally 10 steps before the end of Victory Road. Tate & Liza got some competition for the hardest double battle in the game. Thank god you can avoid them. I swear whoever redid the trainer battles for Emerald was out of blood.
Try not getting stomped literally 10 steps before the end of Victory Road. Tate & Liza got some competition for the hardest double battle in the game. Thank god you can avoid them. I swear whoever redid the trainer battles for Emerald was out of blood.
Literally my favorite NPC fight, so much so that I was going to put it in the OP. (I decided to leave it bare.)
It's also the most difficult NPC battle for me that isn't context-dependent (i.e. in-game trainers, etc.). Myth Trainers Infin and Inity? Got nothing on Mysterial. The Diamond-version fight is brutal. IIRC four of his Pokémon include Kyogre, Palkia, Lugia, and Mewtwo?
There's a couple of fights that have stuck in my memory for a while. For reference, before some of you may be thinking "this dude is ass how is he finding these difficult": I do use level caps but I can't be bothered to grind up to them for the most part so I usually come into gyms/E4 like 5 levels down. I'll go back and grind if I really need to.
Lucian legitimately feels trickier than Cynthia on some runs depending on my team — if I can't beat this guy I definitely can't beat her. Mr. Mime's screens mean you have to twiddle your thumbs for a while before you kill it, and the whole team is tricked out with coverage like Shadow Ball and Focus Blast. The main issue for me is that Espeon and Alakazam are just really fast and my "fast mons" typically get overrun by their coverage.
The BW final battle against N was the first "final boss" I ever played, and starting with a scripted Fusion Flare vs Fusion Bolt made it so cinematic in a way that blew my mind as a kid. In modern replays it still throws me for a loop because of that Zoroark disguised as a Klinklang — I remember seeing it as a kid and being like "what the fuck is that, I've never seen that before" and I feel like I forget about it every time I replay my copy of White. The use of Klinklang probably made it one of my favorite mons early on. Overall, a fittingly climactic battle for one of the best characters in the whole franchise. As an aside: everyone's heard N's iconic final battle music by now, Masuda and Ichinose's gloriously weird prime-number theme, but less people know about Minako Adachi's banger of an official remix, only heard on the SMC.
My favorite of the Alola starters is Decidueye, so whenever I pick Rowlet I run into the hardest and IMO most thematically appropriate of Kukui's SM teams. It's really just the Incineroar that gives me trouble, with all the support he's loaded onto the team with rocks+Safeguard+Tailwind. It hits just a little too hard and I can't switch around easily thanks to that first mon's fourth move. Beyond the battle itself, it's also the theme that made this battle so memorable to me. Go Ichinose's huge, bombastic, triumphant anthem interpolates the Pokemon main theme, and it feels like a celebration of all the decades of the franchise before. It's the soaring horns, the way you finally get to battle a Professor after the promise of fighting Oak in childhood rumors, the way you finally earn that title of Champion and start a league all your own.
Eri's first fight in SV wiped me twice before I figured out how to beat the Starmobile. I brought a Gardevoir specifically for this fight but she counterlead me, outsped and oneshot with Poison Jab lol. The dawning realization that "oh no, that's a mono-Fighting type with Stamina and it has infinite PP" told me how screwed I was. It helps that I love her design, this massive gentle giant in wrestler makeup, and Annihilape was also one of my favorites from the leaks. Teruo Taniguchi's battle theme is also an absolute banger.
I have minor issues with the relative lack of lore on Terapagos but the battle was incredibly cool. The semi-scripted nature of it being against the odds, with Carmine's mons being defeated trying to help us and Kieran having to convince himself he can do it and help us in the end. The extra neat part about it is the "what type is that" guessing game, where you have to figure out what you're supposed to hit it with super-effectively. I love this kind of encounter where something alien with an unknown type shows up (see also: Cynthia's Spiritomb, some of the Ultra Beast encounters, the AI Professors' Iron Moth/Slither Wing if I didn't get spoiled) and this was a really clever use of it. There's also the excellent battle theme by Rei Murayama, Toby Fox, and Go Ichinose, a sparkling and oddly playful climax fitting for a baby with massive power.
Lucian legitimately feels trickier than Cynthia on some runs depending on my team — if I can't beat this guy I definitely can't beat her. Mr. Mime's screens mean you have to twiddle your thumbs for a while before you kill it, and the whole team is tricked out with coverage like Shadow Ball and Focus Blast. The main issue for me is that Espeon and Alakazam are just really fast and my "fast mons" typically get overrun by their coverage.
The BW final battle against N was the first "final boss" I ever played, and starting with a scripted Fusion Flare vs Fusion Bolt made it so cinematic in a way that blew my mind as a kid. In modern replays it still throws me for a loop because of that Zoroark disguised as a Klinklang — I remember seeing it as a kid and being like "what the fuck is that, I've never seen that before" and I feel like I forget about it every time I replay my copy of White. The use of Klinklang probably made it one of my favorite mons early on. Overall, a fittingly climactic battle for one of the best characters in the whole franchise. As an aside: everyone's heard N's iconic final battle music by now, Masuda and Ichinose's gloriously weird prime-number theme, but less people know about Minako Adachi's banger of an official remix, only heard on the SMC.
My favorite of the Alola starters is Decidueye, so whenever I pick Rowlet I run into the hardest and IMO most thematically appropriate of Kukui's SM teams. It's really just the Incineroar that gives me trouble, with all the support he's loaded onto the team with rocks+Safeguard+Tailwind. It hits just a little too hard and I can't switch around easily thanks to that first mon's fourth move. Beyond the battle itself, it's also the theme that made this battle so memorable to me. Go Ichinose's huge, bombastic, triumphant anthem interpolates the Pokemon main theme, and it feels like a celebration of all the decades of the franchise before. It's the soaring horns, the way you finally get to battle a Professor after the promise of fighting Oak in childhood rumors, the way you finally earn that title of Champion and start a league all your own.
Eri's first fight in SV wiped me twice before I figured out how to beat the Starmobile. I brought a Gardevoir specifically for this fight but she counterlead me, outsped and oneshot with Poison Jab lol. The dawning realization that "oh no, that's a mono-Fighting type with Stamina and it has infinite PP" told me how screwed I was. It helps that I love her design, this massive gentle giant in wrestler makeup, and Annihilape was also one of my favorites from the leaks. Teruo Taniguchi's battle theme is also an absolute banger.
I have minor issues with the relative lack of lore on Terapagos but the battle was incredibly cool. The semi-scripted nature of it being against the odds, with Carmine's mons being defeated trying to help us and Kieran having to convince himself he can do it and help us in the end. The extra neat part about it is the "what type is that" guessing game, where you have to figure out what you're supposed to hit it with super-effectively. I love this kind of encounter where something alien with an unknown type shows up (see also: Cynthia's Spiritomb, some of the Ultra Beast encounters, the AI Professors' Iron Moth/Slither Wing if I didn't get spoiled) and this was a really clever use of it. There's also the excellent battle theme by Rei Murayama, Toby Fox, and Go Ichinose, a sparkling and oddly playful climax fitting for a baby with massive power.
Oh! Just thought of another fun one - the tag battle against Maxie and Tabitha in Emerald.
I always enjoy this fight. Emerald expanded the concept of tag battles massively - IIRC in RS it was only a thing in multiplayer - and while they're usually lopsided against the player I always enjoy the challenge of working with an NPC partner (I've devoted an unhealthy amount of time to the tag mode in Emerald's Battle Tower). There's a sense of ceremony to it as you're forced to choose three Pokemon only, which future battles with a partner don't force you to do.
And while Steven's certainly a powerful partner his team is very nicely balanced against Team Magma - as a Steel-type user he's at a disadvantage to both Ground and Fire, but this doesn't come into play as much as you'd expect since none of the opposing Pokemon know Fire moves and only one of the two Camerupt knows Earthquake. His lead Metang's Psychic moves are useless against Maxie's Mightyena, but it has Clear Body to block Intimidate and can counteract its weaknesses somewhat with Reflect and Light Screen (interestingly the reverse of this happens in HGSS, as Lance's Dragonite will instantly get nerfed thanks to Ariana's Arbok having Intimidate); his Skarmory is largely dead weight but does know some very useful moves in Toxic, Aerial Ace, and Protect; his Aggron isn't brilliant thanks to having an impractical special moveset, but only one of the six enemy Pokemon can hit it super-effectively so it's basically a giant tank.
It's one of those fights which can be tricky or fairly easy depending on your team. If you have a Water-type (and it's Hoenn so you probably do) you'll probably find it easy enough. On the other hand if your party doesn't have immediate counters to the opposing roster it can snowball somewhat and become reasonably difficult. It's not on the level of Tate&Liza, but the novelty and unusual setup make it fun enough that it doesn't matter to me.
I always enjoy this fight. Emerald expanded the concept of tag battles massively - IIRC in RS it was only a thing in multiplayer - and while they're usually lopsided against the player I always enjoy the challenge of working with an NPC partner (I've devoted an unhealthy amount of time to the tag mode in Emerald's Battle Tower). There's a sense of ceremony to it as you're forced to choose three Pokemon only, which future battles with a partner don't force you to do.
And while Steven's certainly a powerful partner his team is very nicely balanced against Team Magma - as a Steel-type user he's at a disadvantage to both Ground and Fire, but this doesn't come into play as much as you'd expect since none of the opposing Pokemon know Fire moves and only one of the two Camerupt knows Earthquake. His lead Metang's Psychic moves are useless against Maxie's Mightyena, but it has Clear Body to block Intimidate and can counteract its weaknesses somewhat with Reflect and Light Screen (interestingly the reverse of this happens in HGSS, as Lance's Dragonite will instantly get nerfed thanks to Ariana's Arbok having Intimidate); his Skarmory is largely dead weight but does know some very useful moves in Toxic, Aerial Ace, and Protect; his Aggron isn't brilliant thanks to having an impractical special moveset, but only one of the six enemy Pokemon can hit it super-effectively so it's basically a giant tank.
It's one of those fights which can be tricky or fairly easy depending on your team. If you have a Water-type (and it's Hoenn so you probably do) you'll probably find it easy enough. On the other hand if your party doesn't have immediate counters to the opposing roster it can snowball somewhat and become reasonably difficult. It's not on the level of Tate&Liza, but the novelty and unusual setup make it fun enough that it doesn't matter to me.
Generally, Emerald's gym battles and Platinum's villain and elite four + champion battles were some of my favorite in the series, due to their reasonable challenge and solid design. However, I'll provide a couple that haven't been stated yet.
Barry's last battle in Platinum - a nice capstone to the postgame even with how arduous it is to unlock. I've always felt he was an underrated rival and his final team has fairly solid move sets, mon selection, and the highest levels for an NPC we had ever seen up till that point.
Argenta's Silver Print battle - the Gold Prints/Symbols for the Frontiers feel a little too hard/annoying for me to unlock in a casual run. But the Silver Prints generally feel reachable, and this one in particular is pretty fun. I like the idea of a 1v1 battle where your final challenge is completely random. The suspense of what she'll send out and whatever you have as your ace for this challenge needing to come through in the clutch by itself... results in a pretty cool experience in my opinion.
Barry's last battle in Platinum - a nice capstone to the postgame even with how arduous it is to unlock. I've always felt he was an underrated rival and his final team has fairly solid move sets, mon selection, and the highest levels for an NPC we had ever seen up till that point.
Argenta's Silver Print battle - the Gold Prints/Symbols for the Frontiers feel a little too hard/annoying for me to unlock in a casual run. But the Silver Prints generally feel reachable, and this one in particular is pretty fun. I like the idea of a 1v1 battle where your final challenge is completely random. The suspense of what she'll send out and whatever you have as your ace for this challenge needing to come through in the clutch by itself... results in a pretty cool experience in my opinion.
If Romhacks count, then the final battles against N + Ghetchis in a Blaze Black Nuzlocke, the back to back 6 vs 6 was great, i screwed up hard in my plan and had to steer, lost 2 mons to N which were important to beat Ghetchis, i ended just going without making a new plan and somehow managed to win. Shoutout to Regenerator Slowbro and Dry skin Toxicroak that carried that fight.
I was actually just thinking earlier that Palmer's first battle is both fun and easy. 20 battles in is an absurdly low threshold for a competent team, and you can sweep his trio of Dragonite, Rhyperior, and Milotic with a single Starmie. It's an incredibly easy way to grind BP since you can just terminate your streak right afterward and start again.
Yeah, it's the main reason I prefer the Gen 4 Frontier to the Gen 3 one actually. The Silver Prints feel a little less gate kept than the Silver Symbols, which can feel oppressively difficult to get in a casual run.