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Why is Manaphy in Ubers?
- Thread starter OGsloane
- Start date
Try a Lapras with Thunder. Seriously, it 4x resists Ice Beam, is immune to Surf, and is bulky enough to take Grass Knots.
Lapras also gets to effectively use Thunder in the Rain, which is super effective against Manaphy.
Same for Lanturn/Starmie.
If Manaphy has Tail Glow, it probably doesn't have Rain Rest, so keep that in mind:
The Tail Glow set is usually
Ice Beam
Tail Glow
Surf
Grass Knot
Where is the Rain, where is Rest? It cannot recover...
Certainly u can have Rain Dance on another pokemon, but even then it will run out eventually.
Generally if you can take down Calmcune, you can take down Manaphy. Hell at least Calmcune has Roar.
Lapras also gets to effectively use Thunder in the Rain, which is super effective against Manaphy.
Same for Lanturn/Starmie.
If Manaphy has Tail Glow, it probably doesn't have Rain Rest, so keep that in mind:
The Tail Glow set is usually
Ice Beam
Tail Glow
Surf
Grass Knot
Where is the Rain, where is Rest? It cannot recover...
Certainly u can have Rain Dance on another pokemon, but even then it will run out eventually.
Generally if you can take down Calmcune, you can take down Manaphy. Hell at least Calmcune has Roar.
Like Garchomp is not a bit overcentralizing at all.
I don't see what the true issue with Manaphy is, when we have Pokemon without a large number of counters dominating the game as it stands.
Manaphy faces the prospect of carrying Rest+Tail Glow, but then only two attacks, making it walled by a lot more.. and not being able to support its own rain. If it tries to support its own rain, it has the same issues, and possibly the lack of Tail Glow. Thus you're using a bulky water, and Manaphy is great at it.. but it has counters in that case.
Then there's this..
If Manaphy runs its most dangerous set, Tail Glow+Grass Knot/Ice Beam/Surf(or insert random HP..), it has no recovery move, depends on others to setup Rain Dance, and is picked off by revenge killers.. just like say.. Garchomp; Which also has few counters, and possesses an absurd amount of power with Sword Dance? Garchomp of course does not as heavily depend on weather support to totally break its walls.
Over-centralizing is a ludicrous argument, in my opinion. Every team will carry a counter, or revenge killer for a powerful (over-centralizing?) Pokemon. Over-centralizing is not the same as too powerful for OU. Not every team would have to carry a Manaphy to win, just as not every team carries a Tyranitar, Lucario, or even Blissey to secure victory either. Yet teams would carry counters for all those.
If Manaphy is tested and starts running through every team insight, send it back to ubers. I think it deserves a shot if only to diversify the game, not limit it.
Lapras can't counter any Manaphy that carries Grass Knot, as was just discussed on the last page. Lapras is 485 lbs. (220kg).
Manaphy faces the prospect of carrying Rest+Tail Glow, but then only two attacks, making it walled by a lot more.. and not being able to support its own rain. If it tries to support its own rain, it has the same issues, and possibly the lack of Tail Glow. Thus you're using a bulky water, and Manaphy is great at it.. but it has counters in that case.
Then there's this..
If Manaphy runs its most dangerous set, Tail Glow+Grass Knot/Ice Beam/Surf(or insert random HP..), it has no recovery move, depends on others to setup Rain Dance, and is picked off by revenge killers.. just like say.. Garchomp; Which also has few counters, and possesses an absurd amount of power with Sword Dance? Garchomp of course does not as heavily depend on weather support to totally break its walls.
Over-centralizing is a ludicrous argument, in my opinion. Every team will carry a counter, or revenge killer for a powerful (over-centralizing?) Pokemon. Over-centralizing is not the same as too powerful for OU. Not every team would have to carry a Manaphy to win, just as not every team carries a Tyranitar, Lucario, or even Blissey to secure victory either. Yet teams would carry counters for all those.
If Manaphy is tested and starts running through every team insight, send it back to ubers. I think it deserves a shot if only to diversify the game, not limit it.
Lapras can't counter any Manaphy that carries Grass Knot, as was just discussed on the last page. Lapras is 485 lbs. (220kg).
It's ridiculous the way people are disposing of viable counters and such for Manaphy.
To use Manaphy well imo it would need to carry Rest and Rain Dance. I've run RD teams using Phione and not only is it a great RD'er because of Hydration but it can be semi self-sufficient after that.
To be status free, have a boosted surf then running Rain Dance is almost needed because of how quickly the rain ends. Rest in the Rain is completely awesome with Hydration.Surf is almost a definite third slot, good damage, STAB, Rain Boost.
One slot left for either HP Elect, GK, Ice Beam or whatever else you fancy. Only one! It can't have all three unless it wants to be Danceless, Restless, or Glowless which is silly imo. So how can it counter all these different things with those 3 attacks if it pretty much only gets to choose one to be quite efficient imo. If you don't run IB then Celebi, Roserade or any other grass type eats you for dinner.
Tail Glow just throws more into the equation because then you have to drop either Rest or/and RD and then it's a faster NP Slowking.
I can't see how another bulky water over-centralizes OU, if anything it would expand it because more people would run RD teams.
To use Manaphy well imo it would need to carry Rest and Rain Dance. I've run RD teams using Phione and not only is it a great RD'er because of Hydration but it can be semi self-sufficient after that.
To be status free, have a boosted surf then running Rain Dance is almost needed because of how quickly the rain ends. Rest in the Rain is completely awesome with Hydration.Surf is almost a definite third slot, good damage, STAB, Rain Boost.
One slot left for either HP Elect, GK, Ice Beam or whatever else you fancy. Only one! It can't have all three unless it wants to be Danceless, Restless, or Glowless which is silly imo. So how can it counter all these different things with those 3 attacks if it pretty much only gets to choose one to be quite efficient imo. If you don't run IB then Celebi, Roserade or any other grass type eats you for dinner.
Tail Glow just throws more into the equation because then you have to drop either Rest or/and RD and then it's a faster NP Slowking.
I can't see how another bulky water over-centralizes OU, if anything it would expand it because more people would run RD teams.
This thread is drifting off into pointlessness.
To determine Manaphy's counters, one has to consider the set which made it Uber in the first place, and thus clearly it's most threatening one :
Manaphy @ Leftovers / Life orb
Timid / Modest : Hydration
252 SA, 252 SP, 4 HP (feel free to change this around)
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
For the sake of this discussion, let us assume Manaphy will be Modest hoding a Life Orb, just to maximize his power - keep in mind that it risks being outsped by Specsmence in this case, among other disadvantages, and loses tons of survivability.
Let us now elaborate on all counters which could be found in the current metagame, naturally excluding the Uber Tier.
Calm Mind Blissey with Thunderbolt - Relatively straightforward.
Blissey with Thunder Wave - After one Tail Glow and equipped with a Life Orb, Modest Manaphy will deal :
33.89% - 39.78% to Max HP / 100 SD Calm Blissey. This is only a 3KO in a Sandstorm, and if we are assuming this, we assume Manaphy loses 18% of it's hp a turn. Blissey proceeds to take 2 hits, paralyses, and heals back as it watched the blue blob kill itself or have to switch out.
Ludicolo - An excellent counter which even has access to some self-recovery with Leech Seed. Taking a 252 HP / 252 SA neutral nature Ludicolo, Manaphy's best bet is Ice Beam, which does a max of :
34.34% - 40.38% , on which Ludicolo gets leftovers recovery and hits back with Energy Ball : 109.68% - 129.03% .
I don't have time to go on like this right now, but other potential examples would be CMRaikou, CMRegice, Abomasnow or Mantine / Tentacruel with Mirror Coat (Manaphy has a 0% chance to OHKO both after 6+ stages).
Now, does having these counters overcentralize the current metagame? That's the question.
To determine Manaphy's counters, one has to consider the set which made it Uber in the first place, and thus clearly it's most threatening one :
Manaphy @ Leftovers / Life orb
Timid / Modest : Hydration
252 SA, 252 SP, 4 HP (feel free to change this around)
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
For the sake of this discussion, let us assume Manaphy will be Modest hoding a Life Orb, just to maximize his power - keep in mind that it risks being outsped by Specsmence in this case, among other disadvantages, and loses tons of survivability.
Let us now elaborate on all counters which could be found in the current metagame, naturally excluding the Uber Tier.
Calm Mind Blissey with Thunderbolt - Relatively straightforward.
Blissey with Thunder Wave - After one Tail Glow and equipped with a Life Orb, Modest Manaphy will deal :
33.89% - 39.78% to Max HP / 100 SD Calm Blissey. This is only a 3KO in a Sandstorm, and if we are assuming this, we assume Manaphy loses 18% of it's hp a turn. Blissey proceeds to take 2 hits, paralyses, and heals back as it watched the blue blob kill itself or have to switch out.
Ludicolo - An excellent counter which even has access to some self-recovery with Leech Seed. Taking a 252 HP / 252 SA neutral nature Ludicolo, Manaphy's best bet is Ice Beam, which does a max of :
34.34% - 40.38% , on which Ludicolo gets leftovers recovery and hits back with Energy Ball : 109.68% - 129.03% .
I don't have time to go on like this right now, but other potential examples would be CMRaikou, CMRegice, Abomasnow or Mantine / Tentacruel with Mirror Coat (Manaphy has a 0% chance to OHKO both after 6+ stages).
Now, does having these counters overcentralize the current metagame? That's the question.
Yeah, cspecs lanturn is at all useful for anything other than countering manaphy. Having an existing counter that is 100% fucking useless in almost every other situation really isn't countering anything, by forcing you to have something as horribly worthless as a cspecs lanturn in your team Manaphy has already done its job. The only counter I've seen listed here that isn't mostly worthless otherwise is Tentacruel. CMers I don't count, because the idea that you will get manaphy to come in against a setup or that he will let you set up is ridiculous.
Oh yeah, the most exploitive manaphy set has rest to abuse hydration status cure. Manaphy destroys all on a raindance team, tyranitar or hippwo can come in and ruin his rain but he slaughters either of them with a boosted surf.
If you mean Garchomp, he's not doing it by himself.
On topic, I'd be up for testing Manaphy again. It'd be nice to see the possibility of Rain teams becoming as popular as Sandstorm teams.
I'd hardly call auto-SS from two very OU pokes set-up. What other support does he need?
Not at all does it seem like overcentralizing. Thats alot of pokemon there, but someone else thought it was so i respected their opinion. And alot of people don't seem to be able to understand that Manaphy can't do everything it has access to and does need to set up. Sweeper needs to devote ev's to speed and spatk so its easier to kill and its limited to a few attacking moves too. So what's the problem with Manaphy? I dont really know.
You shouldn't call a Pokemon worthless if it is viable. A Pokemon like Mantine is great insurance against a Manaphy or Suicune that has gained some stat boosts for some reason.
Not to derail this thread, but Garchomp's problem is that his "set-up" is pretty easy. Two pokemon give him sandstorm (and are good on their own) and Stealth Rocks help limit his available counters (and are set up by nearly every wall in this game).
Those help him out. Without them he's scary, but much easier to deal with. With Sand Veil on and residual Stealth Rock damage its GG.
We already are testing it...in the huge MDWL tourney that started a couple of weeks ago, I mentioned it earlier in the thread. Those are going to give us the results we need. We'll see how it went when the tournament's over.
You know, when I was glancing at how STalk DDDos worked (Rest / Sleep Talk / Dragon Dance / Waterfall), it got me thinking of something of a nasty combination of RainRest AND Tail Glow...
Manaphy @ Damp Rock
- Rain Dance
- Rest
- Tail Glow / Calm Mind
- Surf
Nature: Modest / Timid?
EVs: Not sure and such. Even unsure on Modest... but I guess standard 80 HP / 252 SAtk / 176 Spe.
Think of it like this: Manaphy is quite a threat in the rain to begin with. Combine RainRest AND Tail Glow and there's problems handling in the late game. AND, unlike Sleep Talking Gyarados, this thing gets double STAB thanks to the rain, which is easily set up. And the Blissey argument is almost tossed because you could easily set up your Tail Glows, set up the Rain, AND Rest off the damage and status done to it.
Also another option could be Calm Mind since it still does the job of Tail Glow but at a slower pace with the benefit of raising your Special Defense.
...Yes, the argument "Taunt stops it" would work, but I don't think a lot of teams would enjoy this set even in the Overused environment.
And, by the way, Regice doesn't learn Calm Mind. The closest argument is Amnesia or the ever-rare Psych Up. And your CMKou argument is, once again, barely considered since it can be 2HKO'd and lose its value of a counter. I'll agree on Ludicolo and I can agree on Abomosnow however because those would be counters. And finally what the hell is Tentacruel going to do to Manaphy? Mirror Coat? That's barely an argument since you have to sacrifice Rapid Spin or any other useful move to make use of it. And remember: Rapid Spin and Mirror Coat is illegal.
I'm neutral with Manaphy's placement. The tournament will help decide however what will happen.
Manaphy @ Damp Rock
- Rain Dance
- Rest
- Tail Glow / Calm Mind
- Surf
Nature: Modest / Timid?
EVs: Not sure and such. Even unsure on Modest... but I guess standard 80 HP / 252 SAtk / 176 Spe.
Think of it like this: Manaphy is quite a threat in the rain to begin with. Combine RainRest AND Tail Glow and there's problems handling in the late game. AND, unlike Sleep Talking Gyarados, this thing gets double STAB thanks to the rain, which is easily set up. And the Blissey argument is almost tossed because you could easily set up your Tail Glows, set up the Rain, AND Rest off the damage and status done to it.
Also another option could be Calm Mind since it still does the job of Tail Glow but at a slower pace with the benefit of raising your Special Defense.
...Yes, the argument "Taunt stops it" would work, but I don't think a lot of teams would enjoy this set even in the Overused environment.
And, by the way, Regice doesn't learn Calm Mind. The closest argument is Amnesia or the ever-rare Psych Up. And your CMKou argument is, once again, barely considered since it can be 2HKO'd and lose its value of a counter. I'll agree on Ludicolo and I can agree on Abomosnow however because those would be counters. And finally what the hell is Tentacruel going to do to Manaphy? Mirror Coat? That's barely an argument since you have to sacrifice Rapid Spin or any other useful move to make use of it. And remember: Rapid Spin and Mirror Coat is illegal.
I'm neutral with Manaphy's placement. The tournament will help decide however what will happen.