Why is Manaphy in Ubers?

X1NF1D3L said:
I can see why manaphy is in Ubers because it is so powerful, but specs jolteon's thunderbolt does 82-97% damage to a MAX HP/SDef positive SDef nature manaphy, and then you can just priority move it if manaphy kills jolt (Thunder is guaranteed OHKO, if it matters)

More damage calcs (using standard spreads to same manaphy ^):
0CM Raikou T-bolt: 68-80%
1CM Raikou T-bolt: 101-120%
CB Metagross Bullet Punch: 13-15% (eh, ~94% KO w/ Jolt)
Specs Deoxys-E T-bolt: 51-58%
Standard Gengar T-bolt: 37-44% (Timid Scarf same %)
Modest Scarf Gar T-bolt: 41-48%
Specs Gar T-bolt: 56-66%

Remember, this is to MAX HP/SDEF +SDEF nature Manaphy!
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A lot of their effectiveness will depend on how well they can handle the combination of rain/tailglow boosted Surfs, Grass Knot, or Ice Beam (or hidden power..). With Manaphy devoting everything to defenses, its offensive fire power is toned down.. but only a bit.

On the before mentioned defensive Manaphy Sleep Talking set, I think having Manaphy setup its own Rain Dance takes away from its versatility attacking wise. It leaves itself open to the like of Toxicroak, and Grass Pokemon if it fails to carry Ice Beams.. and struggles against against other waters if it lacks HP Electric/Grass Knot.
 
Manaphy is bearable in OU IMO, but the big problem with the Tail Glow version is that most of its counters are either UU, BL or just barely OU, which to some people, may be "over-centralizing".

Let's look at some of these counters:

Lanturn with 252 HP/252 SDef and a +SDef nature can take any +2 hit from a Timid Manaphy without the possibility of getting 2HKOed. The only thing that he fears is Life Orb + Modest Manaphy which not many people use. The only SE move that Manaphy has on Lanturn is Grass Knot which is only 40 BP before SE, because Lanturn is extremely light. Lanturn can then 2HKO easily with Thunder. UU.

Jumpluff is a good counter provided that Manaphy does not carry Ice Beam. The quickie Encore can force Manaphy to switch out, especially if it's caught on a Tail Glow. It resists Surf/Grass Knot which Manaphy commonly carries. UU.

Abomasnow, which was already mentioned in this thread resists anything that Manaphy can throw at it, cancels the Rain, and can easily KO with Wood Hammer/Seed Bomb, especially considering that Tail Glow Manaphy carries no defensive EVs. Barely OU.

Ludicolo, previously mentioned as well, has a 4x resist to Manaphy's STAB attacks, doesn't take much from Ice Beam, Grass Knot or HP Electric, benefits from the Rain and can KO pretty quickly with STAB Energy Ball. BL.

Bibarel, if it's Unaware and has 252 HP/252 SDef, and a +SDef nature if you choose, it can take anything that Manaphy can shoot at it with Grass Knot only being 60 BP before SE damage (HP Electric is a 4HKO with Leftovers on with a +SDef nature). Ignoring the +2 boost helps Bibarel a lot to screw Manaphy over with Super Fang and Return, especially when Bibarel can Taunt away any attempts to Rest off the damage. UU.

Those are the counters I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm going to stress this, because some moron always comes in and says this -

NO, I DO NOT EXPECT EVERY TEAM TO CARRY ONE OF THESE POKEMON FOR MANAPHY.
 
if manaphy goes down to ou, you will problly see more hail teams since their main staple is a counter (abomasnow). also there will be more rain dance teams since manaphy has two counters (ludicolo, lanturn) that could be potential team mates, which means rain dance teams facing each other should have a counter for the most commonly used rain dance team member (manaphy).
 
Though, I would love if Manaphy were OU, please don't do it. It's a personal reason! I would feel the need to add it to my Rain team and it would likely take Kingdra's spot! ;_;

On a more serious note, though, it would be nice to see more teams Rain-oriented instead of the ever-present Sand and occasional Hail teams. That isn't to say Rain (or even Sun!) teams aren't common, but we can all see how many more Sands there are. Manaphy would making switching over a little more appealing, I guess.
 
Actually Beck, Kingdra still has better sweeping potential than manaphy thanks to swift swim. Sure, Manaphy has tail glow, but when a Gengar or Jolteon come in they can pick it off if its weakened a little, where as kingdra will just manhandle their ass :-).
 
RaikouLover said:
Actually Beck, Kingdra still has better sweeping potential than manaphy thanks to swift swim. Sure, Manaphy has tail glow, but when a Gengar or Jolteon come in they can pick it off if its weakened a little, where as kingdra will just manhandle their ass :-).
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I never said that either of the two were better than one another. I only meant that I would feel obligated to add the little guy since he obviously fits well in a Rain team.
 
RaikouLover said:
Actually Beck, Kingdra still has better sweeping potential than manaphy thanks to swift swim. Sure, Manaphy has tail glow, but when a Gengar or Jolteon come in they can pick it off if its weakened a little, where as kingdra will just manhandle their ass :-).
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It's kind of a toss-up, really.

Manaphy has higher stats, one more resistance (but resistance to Ice is always bloody good), Tail Glow/HydraRest and very good type coverage. Kingdra has great mixed sweeping potential with Rain, STAB and Swift Swim (as well as Draco Meteor) but I think the kicker here is that Kingdra relies on the rain a lot more than Manaphy. For Manaphy, the rain is important on only half its sets, and even then it doesn't seriously hinder it from being a bit of a beast. If Kingdra loses the rain, it becomes a hell of a lot easier to wall (especially after a SpAtk drop) to the point where the complete averageness of its stats really begin to show.
 
I see alot of fear of manaphy being the trouble it can cause in the rain. If manaphy is the one setting up rain it can probably be 2hko'd seeing damage calculations earlier on a max spdef manaphy. There are alot of pokemon in the metagame where people are fine sacrificing a pokemon to get rid of. It certainly is trouble, but is not impossible to deal with in OU no?
 
Bologo said:
Manaphy is bearable in OU IMO, but the big problem with the Tail Glow version is that most of its counters are either UU, BL or just barely OU, which to some people, may be "over-centralizing".

(snip)

Abomasnow, which was already mentioned in this thread resists anything that Manaphy can throw at it, cancels the Rain, and can easily KO with Wood Hammer/Seed Bomb, especially considering that Tail Glow Manaphy carries no defensive EVs. Barely OU.
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Unless Abomasnow is packing some Sp. Def evs, it cannot counter Blizzard Life Orb Manaphy. I wouldn't consider Abomasnow really a counter... then again, if I were to use Manaphy I'd throw it into my hail team in a jiffy. A bulky sweeper with access to NP Blizzard? You betcha. <3 Blizzard.
 
Yea, the most powerful Manaphy set doesn't even use Rain Dance. Just tail glow and sweet coverage in Surf, Ice Beam / Blizzard (Hail), and Grass Knot.
 
Manaphy got a unresisted movepool, and in Rain Dance teams it's even immune to status. It doesn't have any 0.25 weaknesses and got amazing defences, which makes it pretty damn hard to take down. You can't even rely on a SpecsTBolt to take it down. If that's the most reliable way to take on Manaphy, people would probably begin to carry Wacan Berry.
Oh, and Manaphy is freaking light. Grass Knot is a 20 powered move against it (correct me if I'm wrong). o.O
 
For MY purposes manaphy can fit into both OU and Über.
There are after all quite a few things that can out class manaphy as an offensive threat. the main reason he is in the Über tier is because he has tail glow.
 
Folks are talking about Latias, Latios, Mew, etc already. Why not add Manaphy to the list?

We could do a mass unbanning and test it out. At this point why not?
 
Dr.Traveler said:
Folks are talking about Latias, Latios, Mew, etc already. Why not add Manaphy to the list?

We could do a mass unbanning and test it out. At this point why not?
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Manaphy is already being tested in the "Manaphy/Deoxys-S/Wobbuffet/Lati (MDWL)" tournament.
 
Whoever's running the tournament is getting logs of every battle sent to them, so I assume that after the tournament is over, those logs can be analyzed to see how well Manaphy did in the battles.

It's a pretty huge tournament, especially with the way the first round went with the separate divisions and such, so there will be lots of battles to analyze and hopefully get some kind of results. It's not as good as the ladder, but it's better than having people complain that their ladder experience is being ruined.
 
It's hard to know yet, because we can't look at the actual logs until the tournament is over, because that would spill people's teams that are in those logs, and scouting of teams is prohibited in tournaments. I'm afraid we'll have to wait until the tournament is over to look at any results. It's a 64-person tourney, so it's humongous. I'm sure that you can PM someone in the tournament on how their first round was if you really wanted to.
 
What about Starmie/Lapras?

Starmie resists Ice Beam and Surf, and packs either Thunder or T-bolt (and possibly Life Orb). Grass Knot has a weak Base Power on Starmie.

Lapras is immune to Water, 4x resistant to Ice, and also packs Thunder/Bolt. Lapras also has a high HP.
 
Resist said:
What about Starmie/Lapras?

Starmie resists Ice Beam and Surf, and packs either Thunder or T-bolt (and possibly Life Orb). Grass Knot has a weak Base Power on Starmie.

Lapras is immune to Water, 4x resistant to Ice, and also packs Thunder/Bolt. Lapras also has a high HP.
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Grass Knot is 80 BP on Starmie and 160 after SE damage. That's not a weak base power at all.

Lapras gets his by a 120 BP Grass Knot with 240 BP after SE damage. When you consider that Manaphy can easily get a Tail Glow off against them, they're not very good at all against him.
 
What about something like magnezone. Its pretty bulky and can give out stab thunderbolts with a 130 base special attack. It has the option for metal sound, which will allow a ohko for sure on the tail glow set or force a switch.
 
OGsloane said:
What about something like magnezone. Its pretty bulky and can give out stab thunderbolts with a 130 base special attack. It has the option for metal sound, which will allow a ohko for sure on the tail glow set or force a switch.
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Magnezone is annihilated by Surf. Even with absolute max special defense and HP, it gets OHKOed in the Rain by a +2 STAB Rain'd Surf.
 
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