OU Why we should suspect test No Guard, DynamicPunch, or Machamp

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Preface:

1. I think the DPP metagame is excellent as is. There is nothing wrong with zero action being taken.
2. Having said that, there are certainly elements whose removal would improve the game without completely changing it. I believe we should remove these where possible.
3. If I had my way, I would remove Iron Head. I believe Jirachi to be balanced / a positive for the metagame, but removing Iron Head would unquestionably improve the tier, because it rewards players too powerfully, too consistently, and often for making bad plays. However, we unfortunately do not have this as an option, and removing Jirachi from the tier entirely is not something I think we should do (for many reasons). This is why I am not focusing on it, despite it being the tier's most controversial Pokemon. (Having said that, if there was massive support for a Jirachi suspect, I would not be entirely opposed...but most people seem to feel similarly about wanting to remove Iron Head yet not wanting to remove Jirachi.)

Note the bolded part, and consider how it also applies to Machamp. The difference between Machamp and Jirachi is that Machamp is not one of the tier's most important defensive pieces, and I am not just talking the oft-cited ability to take on Latias here: even before its re-introduction, Rachi was almost single-handedly responsible for shutting down the powerful offensive teams that had given DPP its reputation for being a last-guessing variance fest with overwhelming levels of power a tier without team preview was insufficiently equipped to handle.

Speaking of DPP's reputation for being a variance fest, in recent years it is less "I got swept by an unrevealed Pokemon" and more literally about RNG excessively plaguing battles. Yes, Jirachi is largely responsible for this, but there is a reason why teams that only have Jirachi are much, MUCH less despised than the teams that pair it with Machamp (there is a reason DPP Cup threads have *clicks DynamicPunch* as their tier-describing blurb). Paraspam teams with Machamp have long since been the go-to team style for someone looking to "cheese" their way past an opponent by virtue of their high RNG.

Machamp's far greater power means your window for attempting to survive its hax is significantly lower than against Jirachi. Rachi's Iron Head flinches are higher in percentage, but it also often needs to chain ridiculous amounts of them together to try and RNG its way past something. Conversely often takes just one, maybe two confusions to lose the one-on-one against Champ, because it threatens huge damage against the entire tier, and its Fighting STAB has much, much better coverage than Jirachi's Steel.

This is too great a reward, one it receives too consistently, especially paired with paralysis, and because it comes in against some of the most necessary Pokemon in the tier. The consistency with which it receives this reward also enables bad play far more than should be acceptable. There will always be players who make worse moves, hoping RNG will bail them out. The RNG should not be so high that this becomes a reliable strategy, yet Machamp, especially with paralysis--a pairing so natural and common you may as well say "with Stealth Rock"--regularly becomes overbearing in this regard.

With paralysis support it is particularl egregious, but in case you think you'll be fine if you can simply dance around the status, recall the years and years of lead Machamp, or mid-game Champ on offensive teams not supported by para, ripping through things far too easily off DynamicPunch confusion alone. Machamp's response to Azelf running Colbur Berry wound up being to DynamicPunch it on the first turn and either force a switch or a coinflip. When tasked with actually switching into Champ, the move's only immunities are unable to take it out or hinder it reliably in return (the closest you get is Explosion / Destiny Bond Gengar which...still involves losing Gengar (we can consider Slowbro a pseudo-immunity, and it's a good Pokemon but extremely niche)), and anything coming into it holding a Lum Berry is taking enormous damage. Machamp hitting hard is not the issue--Machamp hitting hard and immediately ruining attempts at counterplay through high RNG is the issue. Like Jirachi's Iron Head, the metagame would be better without Machamp's DynamicPunch.

Now, the above is not really controversial, evidenced by, if nothing else, 75% of surveyed players finding Machamp not balanced. It is at this point I would remind you that Machamp offers very little to the tier defensively. It's a good secondary check to DD Tyranitar, and that's about it. Its bulk is sufficient to let it go one-on-one with something like Heatran, but it's not switching into much of anything; given its decidedly average physical bulk, vulnerability to Sand, and how much it loves spamming Substitute, it doesn't even like switching into Tyranitar's resisted STABs--it far prefers coming in on a Stealth Rock or after a teammate has been Pursuited. With this in mind, we can begin to approach the idea of a Machamp-less tier; we are certainly not relying on it defensively. Does it provide some sort of crucial offense?

Yes, Machamp is a fierce wallbreaker. Taken from the viewpoint of its lower defensive utility and great damage output, it is not dissimilar to fellow Fighters Lucario and Infernape, or even the niche picks of Gallade or Heracross. What this tells us is that we are not lacking in Fighting-type wallbreaking power. Where Machamp differs from these is that its method of overwhelming its checks is RNG. Of course, I only mentioned those Fighters first because they have comparably little defensive utility, and once we factor in the pre-eminent Fighter Breloom, who is equally as strong as Machamp (meaning stronger than all of the others) while packing far greater utility overall (even if you theoretically removed Spore), the case becomes even stronger. With this, we can conclude that DPP OU does not need Machamp. Machamp's greatest contribution to DPP's identity is its peerless abuse of paralysis. However, there are plenty of methods of abusing paralysis that do not excessively cross the threshold of acceptable RNG the way Machamp does--once again, Breloom is also a superb para abuser that is not relying on Substitutes and confusions. Therefore, we can reasonably consider a DPP metagame without Machamp.

Now, while I believe we would stand to gain quite a bit without losing much of value with a Machamp ban, I also believe it is wasteful. First of all, it has already been demonstrated that if one really is hell-bent on staking their games on dice rolls, as many do, Machoke is similarly capable of abusing No Guard DynamicPunch. Obviously, it is a much worse Pokemon overall. However, with paralysis and confusion backing it, it is going to pose the same kind of problematic threat. The fact that you will gain an extra turn or two against it by virtue of its lower power is not a point against this. It will still find turns in the same places, and live and die by parafusion. Whether or not it would be as consistent is similarly besides the point--it would be used in the same way someone would use Baton Pass, trying to cheese their way past the opponent, the same kind of problematic strategy enabled by Machamp now.

Thus, my preference would be that we consider No Guard or DynamicPunch instead (DPunch would be my preference to take the option away entirely). We did not ban Dugtrio, we banned Arena Trap. Diglett and Trapinch are utterly awful Pokemon--far worse than Machoke, anyway. I would much rather face Arena Trap Diglett than Machoke paraspam.

Furthermore, it is worth preserving Machamp if possible, because it DOES have potential legitimate uses that don't have to hinge on No Guard DPunch. You'd almost never use them now because DPunch is such a high percentage strategy in addition to the offensive threat it poses, but that offensive threat can potentially be legitimate in its own right. For example, last year, I used quite a few offensive Bulk Up three attacks Machamps in Jirachee's DPP Invitational. It was a very solid Pokemon, and its effiency was not entirely contingent on DynamicPunch confusion. It was used because it was a very powerful wallbreaker with decent bulk, the unique value of pure Fighting typing (i.e. no weakness to Fire/Ice unlike Breloom) and just the right Speed tier, capable of smashing through stall teams that'd otherwise potentially stall it out. The DPunch confusion, helped, of course, but if it were to run Guts instead, it would simply run Close Combat as that Fighting STAB, which would actually give it more power, and it could run Leftovers to counteract sand without fearing Rotom's Will-o-Wisp (I was running Lum Berry because of this).

I'm sure there are many other ways Machamp could contribute positively to the metagame without the uncompetitive element that is No Guard DynamicPunch. I'd prefer Machamp was banned over doing nothing, but I also think that would be a terrible waste.

Thank you for reading and I look forward to the discussion!
 
For a long time, I opposed any action on Machamp. I saw it as not broken and a fierce offensive threat that held greedy structures ignoring fighting resists accountable. While I never saw Machamp as primarily a stallbreaker, I liked that people couldn't get away with ignoring their fighting resists on any type of build, and felt that we had sufficient counterplay in Pokemon like Zapdos, RestTalk Rotom, and Skarmory, among others.

These days, I realize this thought process came from the wrong reasons. None of these checks are even close to reliable (Stealth Rock Weak, 2HKO by Payback even after Machamp takes a burn before the second hit, oftentimes slower). To reiterate my thoughts from the survey, I do not think Machamp is broken; however, I think it is uncompetitive. 100% accurate Dynamic Punch causing significant damage + confusion status, along with perfect coverage in just 3 moves, takes the game out of the player's hands if momentum is on Machamp's side, which it is too often. The paralysis inducers supporing it are diverse (Zapdos, Starmie, Jirachi, Clefable, Celebi, Breloom, and most notably, Thunder Wave Gyarados on offense). These are a tall order to account for. Speaking of Breloom, it punishes a lack of fighting resists even harder than Machamp does, and in a healthier way. We have many fighting types that can fill Machamp's niche without encouraging the unhealthy RNG that Machamp does.

While paralysis inducers will always diversely exist in DPP, it doesn't mean we have to allow egregious abusers that don't have notable metagame impact beyond para abuse to a degenerate degree. While I haven't bought into Machamp crossing that line before, I do now. We've seen the survey hint at a dissatisfaction with Machamp's balance. I will reiterate my closing sentence from the survey to conclude my thoughts: "Ultimately, Machamp just doesn't provide much to the tier defensively or offensively in comparison to the strain it puts both in builder and ingame. We don't need Machamp to bust stall -- we have so many other healthier options for that. I think Machamp should be banned."

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In terms of this thread, the DPP council wants it to stay on the topic of Machamp. Additionally, we do not wish to see this devolve into a tiering policy debate. If any action happens, it has to be on Machamp. If Machoke proves to abuse Dynamic Punch in similar ways to Machamp after a hypothetical ban, we can revise the ban to No Guard. Having peaked ladder with Machoke recently, I can say firsthand that it can abuse it similarly, so we should have no problems if the community wants that as a long-term goal. BKC is right that it is wasteful to ban Machamp instead of No Guard, but it also makes sense from a policy standpoint to act on Machamp first. We're in no rush, and it's not like Guts Machamp has had any relevant presence in the metagame. Hariyama is extremely similar and more consistent/usable than Guts Machamp, largely due to its significantly higher HP to contend with Clefable.

The one thing I will mention about Jirachi is that while it has similar controversy to Machamp, its metagame impact is far more substantial, in positive ways as well. For those who think DPP is in a solid place and don't want to drastically change it, wanting a smaller, QoL-esque change like a Machamp ban is a reasonable perspective to have, in my opinion.
 
"Ultimately, Machamp just doesn't provide much to the tier defensively or offensively in comparison to the strain it puts both in builder and ingame. We don't need Machamp to bust stall -- we have so many other healthier options for that. I think Machamp should be banned."

I heavily agree with this, Machamp makes me afraid to use otherwise solid teams because I know if I face Machamp there a 50% chance I do everything right but lose to something out of my control. DPP does not need Machamp, I simply think it makes the tier worse and that removing it wouldn't have a huge metagame impact since the role it fills (Clefable and DD Tar answer) isn't that unique or necessary. I dislike the unhealthy abuse of paralysis and forcing of too many 50/50s, yes this is an oversimplification but I still feel there is truth to it and that the negatives Machamp brings greatly outweigh the positives.

It's not like Machamp is doing anything new and it's usage in tournaments is pretty low since there's a lot of opportunity cost to fitting Machamp imo, because it's an all out attacker without much utility compared to other fighting types such as Infernape Mach + Jirachi punish, Breloom Mach Punch + Spore, Lucario Extreme Speed or even Hariyama's Guts.

That being said I really think Machamp is dumb and wins many games that it shouldn't. To me DPP is an excellent tier and I rather not see any major changes to it so this feels like a good quality of life improvement.

So yea very much in favor of a suspect test of No Guard, Dynamic Punch or Machamp if we have to (we really should be able to just suspect test No Guard though come on lol).
 
Spectator but I figure this is worth bringing. If we have to go forward, I think banning No Guard would be most ideal as that means we can keep Machamp around so that it can still be a solid fighting type with some unique tools at its disposal. But worse case scenario, say we ban Machamp entirely, we have other fighting types that could see more use including Breloom, Infernape, Lucario and even more niche options like Gallade, Heracross and even Hariyama. Machamp teams could still probably function, just with less RNG reliance which is a good thing.
 
machamp isn't even good, you just have know how to play it. literally just hit it once with any remotely strong attack and it's useless for the rest of the battle. it has like base 20 speed and a bad defensive typing. specs latias draco ohko. or any mon with pressure and/or protect and it'll run out of dpunches, unless you're a teambuilding jeezy like me and pair it with lunar dance cress but luckily no one does that yet. even if you wanna be lame and bring fat passive shit just use zapdos, glisc, rachi, uxie, cress, gyara, lickylicky, skarm, nidoqueen, starmie, celebi, rose, hippo, slowbro, etc whatever, there are so many combinations of mons that beat it as long as you know how to pivot, and understand the fundamental rule of beating machamp, just attack it!! seriously, if you click spike in front of it instead of brave birding u deserve to lose. also paraspam isn't even a good style, just use rotom or a few lum berries or tspikes, easywin every time.

so yeah, machamp isn't even close to banworthy, it's just occasionally annoying because of statistically improbable sequences of rng. but pokemon will never be this perfectly meritocratic rng-free utopia, so stop trying to make it that. if you really don't like rng that much and instead want to play an actually good game, go download TF2 for free on steam. i'll even be your dedicated pocket medic bf if it means i don't have to keep looking at these mickey mouse threads trying to ban random shit like acupressure or metal claw or whatever else is next.

to sum it up, here are some of the reasons why machamp is fine. first of all, i like using it and clicking the funny dpunch button so it should stay. second it's one of the best stallbreakers and stall is lame. third i just used it in game while playing platinum and i liked it. fourth, sometimes you won't hit yourself in confusion. fifth, the so called machamp "problem" is more than anything just a consequence of stealth rock being broken since 2006. but that's a separate conversation.. so basically just put a nidoqueen on your team and get over it.
 
machamp isn't even good, you just have know how to play it. literally just hit it once with any remotely strong attack and it's useless for the rest of the battle. it has like base 20 speed and a bad defensive typing. specs latias draco ohko. or any mon with pressure and/or protect and it'll run out of dpunches, unless you're a teambuilding jeezy like me and pair it with lunar dance cress but luckily no one does that yet. even if you wanna be lame and bring fat passive shit just use zapdos, glisc, rachi, uxie, cress, gyara, lickylicky, skarm, nidoqueen, starmie, celebi, rose, hippo, slowbro, etc whatever, there are so many combinations of mons that beat it as long as you know how to pivot, and understand the fundamental rule of beating machamp, just attack it!! seriously, if you click spike in front of it instead of brave birding u deserve to lose. also paraspam isn't even a good style, just use rotom or a few lum berries or tspikes, easywin every time.

so yeah, machamp isn't even close to banworthy, it's just occasionally annoying because of statistically improbable sequences of rng. but pokemon will never be this perfectly meritocratic rng-free utopia, so stop trying to make it that. if you really don't like rng that much and instead want to play an actually good game, go download TF2 for free on steam. i'll even be your dedicated pocket medic bf if it means i don't have to keep looking at these mickey mouse threads trying to ban random shit like acupressure or metal claw or whatever else is next.

to sum it up, here are some of the reasons why machamp is fine. first of all, i like using it and clicking the funny dpunch button so it should stay. second it's one of the best stallbreakers and stall is lame. third i just used it in game while playing platinum and i liked it. fourth, sometimes you won't hit yourself in confusion. fifth, the so called machamp "problem" is more than anything just a consequence of stealth rock being broken since 2006. but that's a separate conversation.. so basically just put a nidoqueen on your team and get over it.

some insane statements here but i agree with the overall sentiment, although not as strongly

machamp has been part of dpp for near 2 decades. there isn't anything that has made it suddenly go over the board in 2024. paraspam has had its time where it was genuinely everywhere, this hasn't been the case in a long time. it's a viable playstyle nowadays and that's really it.

i really don't understand why this gens community in particular feels the need to come up with something new to cry about every 5 months. this is not bw.

i personally like having dpunch machamp in the tier because it's kinda just part of the tier, so it wouldnt feel the same to me when im nostalgic and randomly boot up some ladder games while bored. but I get this is a weak argument and respect the idea that no guard dpunch is inherently not competitive which is why I don't feel strong about it and wouldn't care if it leaves the tier so much, i think that argument in itself is fair and if that's strictly why ur doing it then sure. just hope there's consistency to this and more shit can be removed like attract zam in gsc and sand attack in adv
 
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While I sympathize with the sentiment expressed by pro-ban posters in this thread, I feel like they are overlooking the positive influence Machamp has on DPP.

It's no secret that due to Latias's reintroduction, Stall's viability has rose exponentially. Stall cores that feature Clefable, Skarmory, Latias, and/or Hippowdon are extremely difficult to break. What Machamp offers is a tool to break those stalls without the support of Pursuit Tyranitar. The big reason why Machamp is so good against these teams is that it can afford to stay in on a Latias that's just switched into Dynamic Punch to follow up with a Payback: if Latias hits itself it's basically dead; if it doesn't, it's still confused and has to flip the same coin on the next turn. No other Fighting type has this trait, since Latias can just easily set up a Reflect, or cripple it with Thunder Wave. What Dynamic Punch does is stack the odds in Machamp's favor. That's not to say that Machamp completely roflstomps those teams though! It still requires good play to use DP's modest 8 PP to good efficiency. Multiple DPs are needed to get through the bulkier walls like Skarm and Hippo, so you can't afford to waste them.

It's very difficult to predict how tiering action will affect tiering in the long run. I (and many others) feel like the effects of Latias on the metagame were poorly understood at the time of both votes. For this reason I don't want to make grand predictions about the outcome of a Machamp ban. However I feel like saying that the archetype that would benefit the most for this would be Stall, since it would further centralize the tools we have to combat it.

Furthermore, it is worth preserving Machamp if possible, because it DOES have potential legitimate uses that don't have to hinge on No Guard DPunch. You'd almost never use them now because DPunch is such a high percentage strategy in addition to the offensive threat it poses, but that offensive threat can potentially be legitimate in its own right. For example, last year, I used quite a few offensive Bulk Up three attacks Machamps in Jirachee's DPP Invitational. It was a very solid Pokemon, and its effiency was not entirely contingent on DynamicPunch confusion. It was used because it was a very powerful wallbreaker with decent bulk, the unique value of pure Fighting typing (i.e. no weakness to Fire/Ice unlike Breloom) and just the right Speed tier, capable of smashing through stall teams that'd otherwise potentially stall it out. The DPunch confusion, helped, of course, but if it were to run Guts instead, it would simply run Close Combat as that Fighting STAB, which would actually give it more power, and it could run Leftovers to counteract sand without fearing Rotom's Will-o-Wisp (I was running Lum Berry because of this).

I want to push back on this point a bit. First, I'm not sure Machamp is better than Hariyama (a UU Pokémon) if it doesn't have Dynamic Punch. Hariyama is a lot bulkier, and has a better movepool (Fake Out, everyone's favourite Knock Off.) Hariyama has seen some use but it's been very minimal, and quite frankly if Machamp were to get usage post DP ban, I assume it would be around the same level. Second, while Close Combat is more powerful than Dynamic Punch, the drawbacks are pretty severe. It completely changes the Latias interaction I mentioned before: not only would the SpDef drop turn Dragon Pulse into a 2HKO, but Latias is also completely free to set up a Reflect before Machamp's next attack. This makes it paramount for the Machamp user NOT TO use Close Combat as Latias comes in, a complete reversal of the previous situation. At the same time, CC still comes with DP's 8 PP restriction, so great play would still be needed to conserve that resource -- with a worse end result.

I voted that Machamp was borderline but did not warrant tiering action on the survey. While I understand the negatives (confusion IS dumb sometimes), I feel like a lot of very good players choose to overlook the good Machamp does to the tier. After all, DPP is a beautiful ecosystem full of varied playstyles, and I feel like we should preserve that.
 
I am overall indifferent on whether Machamp is acted on or not, because in my opinion it is not problematic enough to warrant action but it is annoying to deal with and I absolutely wouldn't mind it gone. I can however provide some additional perspectives for those less informed about the tier.

Machamp is uncompetitive full stop, but losing it takes away a tool against defensive teams, which can be especially unsavoury for those who think Clefable is too much and should be dealt with first before taking out tools against it (same goes for spore which is pretty much a breloom ban, even if breloom maintains a niche without spore it'll be significantly less prevalent where currently breloom is the most common way to deal with clef because it's the only mon that can switch into knock off with no penalty and also threatens to ohko it).

That said I would like to echo that there are more consistent ways to pressure defensive teams, most prominently breloom which are usually interchangeable with machamp on "paraspam" cores (with members such as starmie, zapdos, jirachi, clefable and latias as spreaders that also provides defensive utility).

Machamp relies on para + confusion to get past certain targets which gives a 70% of immobilization, but provides very little defensively due to its pure fighting type lacking meaningful resistances. Breloom on the other hand provides sleep and has significantly better longevity than Machamp overall due to poison heal, especially under sand where Machamp cannot heal with its lefties. The grass type gives it additional stab and a handy water and ground resist and helps dealing with swampert which is usually bothersome for typical paraspam teams due to being immune to twave and doing well against the spreaders overall.

Mach Punch access can also be helpful especially against ddtar which is also threatening to typical paraspams. Machamp is actually arguably more consistent as a ddtar check because it can hard in on dd and threaten ohko with dpunch while tar can't ko it in return. Mach Punch Breloom fails to ohko full health tar and chople tar and gets ohkoed in return. However, Machamp may be rendered useless after checking ddtar as it really tries to leverage its bulk to force progress, while breloom's mach punch is much easier to switch into compared to dpunch if the opponent so wishes to but lets loom stay healthy after checking ddtar.

The use of Machamp in these kinds of para-oriented balance teams are its only significantly use case in high-level play, usually with substitute to further abuse the dicerolling, as the inconsistency of Machamp doesn't warrant extensive usage anywhere else. Paralysis takes its antics to a new degree. Lead Machamp is a relatively popular set but not seen in high-level play because, for instance, if your opponent switches to lefties Gyarados or a ghost and then pivots to Jirachi on your coverage move to force a chance game with Iron Head vs DPunch, then your machamp could potentially go out or be forced to switch doing nothing and you want more than that with your lead typically.

The big issue with Machamp and why it is potentially problematic is that there is virtually 0 reliable counterplay against it outside from the extremely niche Slowbro. Machamp is literally what it is because it is unwallable. Any “walls” you can throw at it can suddenly not work anymore 50% of the time. You can go into a ghost to block dpunch but payback ohkos all of them aside from max defensive wisp rotom which gets outsped by machamp, ignoring payback's power boost. However, this is a set that is exclusively on defensive teams and not all of them wants to fit it and Machamp can play around it perfectly fine. One of the very few ways to actually OHKO a Machamp from full is Latia's Specs Draco Meteor, but going into DPunch directly meant 50% of the time you hit yourself and proceed to get KO'd back by Payback. And if you can't OHKO it with something, then you're rolling the die with DPunch the next turn. That's its problem really, it forces the opponent to roll the die at least once during any given game and that one (or few) diceroll(s) could very well determine the outcome of the game.

It's unproblematic overall simply because it's not a very good mon at the baseline. If we were to ban no guard or dpunch, it would be virtually the same mon as Hariyama (worse actually because no option for thick fat), which is already extremely sparsely used. The reason being, while it is perfectly capable of dishing out a lot of pain, it is both slow and provides very little defensive merit due to its bad typing and mediocre at best bulk (which also applies to Machamp). This is also why nobody minds banning it because it being gone changes the meta in a very low degree overall, defensively it provides nothing and you don't have reliable answers to it regardless as well that its role in a team can be replicated easily so it doesn't make anyone more or less viable. You usually want more from a team member, and Machamp "provides more" due to being unwallable by virtue of the forced dicerolling but can be considered still not consistent enough to warrant having this very exploitable weakness. While Machamp provides a good tool against defensive teams, much of its competency is associated with the luck of the die. It can be argued that Machamp does do better against slower teams due to having many more opportunities to exploit it but faster offensive teams also lack the defensive strength to weather the battering repeatedly unlike the defensive teams so each turn of confusion gives more significant pressure. In the end, either way Machamp can be extremely strong or not do much of anything and a big part of it is outside of the player's control (you can still outplay and decisions with these mons still matter but the same goes for any broken / uncompetitive mons that has already been deemed too much).

So, do we want to ban a mon that is arguably not op or broken or even that relevant but extremely annoying to go up against, and does it align with the overall tiering philosophy?
 
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I've had a lot of fun playing with and against machamp lead on ladder as I enjoy the mindgames and "trend", depending on such lead, should I payback directly or punch, though I've often seen people thinking 0 of it and just d punch vs everything zap and gyara alike and payback on ghost only and destroying people with good luck and zero optimisations, it's definitely cheezy and I remember when I started playing dpp and weren't very good at it, my wins against "good players" (1600+) were mostly with cheezy confusion from lead champ.
champ in paraspam needs good plays in order to put yourself in the good positions to abuse para confusion, but that still pretty dumb to beat def skarm like half of the time (didn't do the math) with para confusion.

I understand that people see it as a Mon that is here since a long time and doesn't appear that often in high stakes tournament, but it does appear and it adds rng that u can't play around + cheeze which suck when the game matters.

I'm for a no guard ban, but banning champ is fine too, especially if we're looking into banning no guard later, since we're taking out cheeze of the game, champ has no defensive use, and the replacements of champ in paraspam (breloom, rhyperior) will not buff stall.
 
so yeah, machamp isn't even close to banworthy, it's just occasionally annoying because of statistically improbable sequences of rng. but pokemon will never be this perfectly meritocratic rng-free utopia, so stop trying to make it that. if you really don't like rng that much and instead want to play an actually good game, go download TF2 for free on steam. i'll even be your dedicated pocket medic bf if it means i don't have to keep looking at these mickey mouse threads trying to ban random shit like acupressure or metal claw or whatever else is next.

Completely disagree with this perspective on tiering, and hope this isn't a commonplace feeling - I believe the goal of our rulesets should be to create as competitive of an environment as possible within the constraints the metagame we're playing in provides us (a deconstructive ruleset if you ever watched this Rishi video about Melee rulesets - though the point of that video is the punchline joke ruleset, I think a lot of what he discusses in the first half is pretty prevalent in ruleset discussion here). I wholeheartedly believe Competitiveness should be the primary focus in every decision made on Smogon.

And as someone who values competitiveness above all else (though I also value keeping the identity of an old gen intact, since I think that's important in decade old metagames that people have chosen to play for said unique identity), I most certainly sympathize with wanting to get rid of Machamp. It gives people the opportunity to cheese wins, and playing people in early rounds of these tournaments who don't expect to make it deep try and squeeze a win over you by loading Machamp paraspam is lame. Getting rid of stuff like this with no collateral should be an absolute no brainer.

I'm not sure that getting rid of Machamp would have no collateral, though. It's a very potent punish to passive teams, making them run mons like Zapdos and RestTalk Rotom (which then can get momentum generated on them from Heatran, etc.) As is, I think the state of DPP is better than ever, with a plethora of viable playstyles that allow people to make styles unique to them. I think there's playstyles associated with players that have proven to be repeatedly successful (BKC, Kristyl, and twash all come to mind) and the fact there's so many different ways to consistently win in the tier is a great thing, in my opinion. I don't feel that's true for all OUs. The past 2 SPLs had the best regular season record in the metagame's history set by bruno, which was then followed up by the first 9-0 DPP season from Void. The tier is playing more consistent than ever and the "variance gen" mantra is antiquated and outdated.

I do sympathize with the idea that "there's never a bad time to make something better", but I do truly feel that these paraspam styles that use Machamp are worse than they've ever been in my time playing DPP OU. There's tons of consistent tools to help mitigate Machamp and these teams from cheesing you without sacrificing other matchups heavily - I do think there's a reason BKC was able to run through DPP Invitational using a lot of offenses with Lum Superrachi, for example. I am not vehemently opposed to banning Machamp because I do think it has degenerate aspects that I would feel happy seeing leave the tier, but as of now I would vote No Ban on a Machamp suspect. I absolutely love the state of the metagame and think it's rewarding consistent smart plays and smart builds, and I don't want to potentially rock the boat. Enjoyment of the tier is at the highest it's been in surveys since Latias has been unbanned, so I don't think I'm alone in loving the tier, either. Echoing the statements in Jirachee's post completely.
 
"DPP OU does not need Machamp."

Overhanded tiering actions are just as likely to hurt a tier as they are to help it. If the argument for action on Machamp surmises to, "DPP can exist without X pokemon in an equivalent state," then I would argue that this is a slippery slope. How easily can that line of logic be applied to other elements of DPP?

Reversing past decisions has been difficult historically despite there being multiple cases across multiple generations. The meta game shifts over time so that new answers are found to old problems, which is why this surgical attitude toward tier action gives me pause. If we can't reliably restore the meta once/if solutions are found, then we should be careful in what we remove. I think it's important to recognize that satisfaction with the tier is very high, both for ladder gremlins such as myself and established tournament players. Removing a pokemon entirely really should be the final option on the table. Maybe Dynamic Punch could go, but again I think that where we draw the line between acceptable rng and unacceptable RNG matters, as it can quickly lead to a slippery slope of edits.

Also, your post seems to oversimplify the necessary conditions required for champ to pop off in the way you're describing, like it's just free. But, establishing multiple paralyses over the course of a game, chipping pokemon into range, and then winning multiple parafusion interactions is not an easy game state to establish. I don't think it's all that common. At most, in my experience, Machamp is annoying at the cost of a mon or two, but is usually threatened out or KOd by a faster switch-in/revenge mon. I've seen you make a similar argument for Jirachi: yes, iron head is annoying, but it's very unlikely to make a huge impact. I think Machamp is very similar, with the difference being the trade off of defense and speed for power. And because it can't establish both components of parafusion itself, I don't think it's overbearing.

Also, slowbro is real.
 
Firmly Pro Machamp ban here. if machamp is in on a mon it beats- you either forfeit that mon or accept that you might be about to get haxed into losing something else with a very realistic chance. say for example, they have a machamp in on your hippowdon, rocks are up, and you have a gliscor wishtect jirachi and defensive latias in the back. by all means, this should be a fantastic situation for you to be in. dynamic punch does 30-and then it does 40 thanks to the confusion damage. and you also lost a turn, so that unimpressive 30 becomes a 70, in a situation you were alright in. thats a real possibility if you stay in and eq, and heaven forbid you do anything else with the hippowdon than attack. the other option is switching- but no matter who you switch to, latias, gliscor, skarm, all mons that should absolutely beat the thing- theres the 50% chance that you just get fucked over, in comes payback/ice punch/ dpunch 2, and your answer is down, especially with rocks up. these cores should be punished- i agree, but it should be done reliably. in that situation, theres an equal chance that the hippowdon didnt get confused and now the machamp- a stallbreaker vs a stall team- is fucked over.

switching around machamp feels so, so bad. if you can outpredict your opponent and shit you could maybe switch to latias and then to skarm on the payback, but theres always the chance of another dynamic punch. Theres never an "inbetween move" against a machamp with momentum, your options are always to gamble with prediction, to gamble with rng or to just be in a good situation. I dont think that dealing with machamp is unreasonable- i think doing it without relying on decent amounts of luck is unreasonable. the best move (bar switching a ton which hurts with rocks up) against machamp is always an attacking move, and it just... feels so bad because you dont even have options to deal with an rng threat

dont take anybody who says slowbro exists as an argument against machamp seriously
 
I won’t argue that Slowbro existing is a good argument against Machamp, however I want to address the ideas presented in your post above Sevenor3, which I found interesting even if I don’t agree.

In your arguments, the way you are describing Machamp’s brokenness can be attributed to RNG. If so, Would your position change if No Guard was on the table? If confusion wasn’t an option, would people be as afraid of switching around Machamp’s moves? I have a hard time saying so, as there is an argument to be made that if your team can’t handle a physical attacker with paralysis support then a team weak to Machamp is probably just as weak to something like say, Offensive Metagross, or Lucario or even offensive Swampert. The only difference comes down to how Machamp has a move that prevents you from taking a turn half the time? I mean, a team with paralysis support could be just as terrifying when facing against Breloom who lacks confusion but abuses Sleep instead.

Right now I don’t see a reason why we should ban Machamp itself when the resounding problem is Dynamic Punch. If it were how teams that can handle No Guard Machamp are completely screwed by Guts Machamp then sure, something is probably wrong. But that isn’t being said. Machamp itself doesn’t seem to be the issue. If we had No Guard Zap Cannon Magnezone as a theoretical Pokémon, would we really blame Magnezone for being busted or say that the combination of Zap Cannon and No Guard is busted?

We aren’t talking about a metagame in a state of chaos. We’re talking about one of the greatest metagames of all time and I think we should have a little more faith in the community to make the best game we can make.
 
I don't chime in often on these but I'll try to keep it to a reasonable length wrt Machamp and paraspam as a whole. I have mixed opinions on Machamp although I can understand where both sides are coming from. It's not really at the top of my priority list for what DPP needs to ban if you were to ban something to improve the tier (Sleep, Clef or even the Tiering Policy Paradox known as DPP Iron Head Rachi because PR mainers treat it like it's Pandora's box but I digress)

Some aspects should prob be addressed such as Dynamic Punch. 8 PP is quite frankly not a whole lot and generally the paraspam player has to work for the ideal conditions to be fulfilled before being able to bring in Machamp so getting entry for Machamp can be pretty dull at times given it is pretty slow. Stuff like sub zap, rt wisp rotom or protect pert can put a lot of burden on the Machamp player to get the correct read on say whether to click Dynamic Punch or payback. (Stone Edge in cases like against gyara but on paraspam teams that's not really more situational cuz the PP hella matters hence why Ice Punch is used more.) Every DPunch matters in game as the Champ player to say the least.

Machamp's positives is that it can also be a temporary stopgap answer for DD Tyranitar which has been commonly cited as a positive influence although it's not like Rhyperior or Breloom with mach punch can't fulfill similar functions to some degree and those are common alternatives for abusers on paraspam teams. The latter is sometimes paired with Champ on paraspam, also a mon that can punish Clef is nice. That's where it's positive influences on the tier end.

The negatives: Dynamic Punch. Dynamic Punch on it's own already is a pretty coinflippy move when it comes to confusion hax, and pair it with say paralysis and those odds suddenly become a lot more reasonable for the Machamp player to fish for and defensive counterplay can be kinda boned. There was that whole 8pp thing but like let's be real, that's about the closest if not only thing remotely "skillful" abt the move and maybe I was stretching it a bit too hard. Dynamic Punch with No Guard on its own is uncompetitive which is hilarious irony. Having games come down to ur defensive answer trying to fight through confuse and if you really fucked up or got unlucky, also fighting through paralysis on top of that. It is easy to see why pro-ban players want it gone.

As I stated in my opening statement, it would not be fair to talk about Machamp's presence in the tier without mentioning paraspam. Paraspam teams I find while building often have to account for the DD Trinity of TTar, Gyara and DNite where being able to answer all 3 in some capacity can be a challenge given these mons often run Lum and in Gyara's case Sub sometimes. It serves as a way to punish passive teams but has a dubious MU into something like an Infernape with HWish support, throw on a scarf suit tar for mie for good measure since mie can somewhat help with the ape MU. This also doesn't factor in magnet pull mons which both help with paraspam teams to facilitate their gameplan but also can be a bane if on the other team.

For Offensive teams, however, it often does not have particularly great means of being able to withstand machamp or has to make awkward trades to get rid of it, this does not include the fact that say u hv a scarf rotom on offense and you'd realistically have to awkwardly pivot around dpunch and payback which puts u in an awkward position, other variants of paraspam give offensive teams their own challenges like Breloom getting a free spore off after an RK or choice locked mon and having to fear sub (applicable to rhyperior variants), Machamp being gone would still have these kinda dynamics wrt paraspam abuser into offense and its opportunities for entry etc albeit in different manners.

I do earnestly believe that the community deserves the right to have Machamp suspected as ppl are sometimes unwilling to suspect something unless they're certain it'd be ban to a fault. The fucking point of a suspect is so people can decide on whether it should be banned or not which I find that point sometimes goes over people's heads on this site. Machamp is a pretty divisive pokemon as this thread has shown. Whether or not I think it should be banned is a separate matter for me.

I would need more time to reflect on where I stand on Pro-ban or Anti-ban on Machamp before I can truly come to a decision.

TLDR: Machamp has blatant uncompetitive elements with some positive elements for the tier, but please actually suspect it for the love of god even if you do not truly agree it should be banned.

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honestly I'm hard pressed to find real reasons to keep machamp around upon further review. Lol we should just ban this shit.
 
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I won’t argue that Slowbro existing is a good argument against Machamp, however I want to address the ideas presented in your post above Sevenor3, which I found interesting even if I don’t agree.

In your arguments, the way you are describing Machamp’s brokenness can be attributed to RNG. If so, Would your position change if No Guard was on the table? If confusion wasn’t an option, would people be as afraid of switching around Machamp’s moves? I have a hard time saying so, as there is an argument to be made that if your team can’t handle a physical attacker with paralysis support then a team weak to Machamp is probably just as weak to something like say, Offensive Metagross, or Lucario or even offensive Swampert. The only difference comes down to how Machamp has a move that prevents you from taking a turn half the time? I mean, a team with paralysis support could be just as terrifying when facing against Breloom who lacks confusion but abuses Sleep instead.

Right now I don’t see a reason why we should ban Machamp itself when the resounding problem is Dynamic Punch. If it were how teams that can handle No Guard Machamp are completely screwed by Guts Machamp then sure, something is probably wrong. But that isn’t being said. Machamp itself doesn’t seem to be the issue. If we had No Guard Zap Cannon Magnezone as a theoretical Pokémon, would we really blame Magnezone for being busted or say that the combination of Zap Cannon and No Guard is busted?

We aren’t talking about a metagame in a state of chaos. We’re talking about one of the greatest metagames of all time and I think we should have a little more faith in the community to make the best game we can make.
yes, the entirety of my distaste for machamp comes from its variance and rng. i would personally find machamp more palatable if dynamic punch dealt double damage to any pokemon slower than it (or switching in) instead of inflicting confusion. yes, i think that if confusion wasn't an option people would be less afraid of switching around, because machamp cant ever go for a 50/50 to something that outspeeds and ohkos it. yes, my stance would change if no guard was an option, and i would ban no guard. i would actually order my preference for bans as;
1. dynamic punch
2. no guard
3. machamp
even just no dynamic punch machamp with no guard would be fine. i differ from you because i think machamp is unpalatable *even without paralysis*. its less so a case of "can i deal with this" and moreso a case of "i find playing against and using this pokemon to be significantly less fun and significantly less competitively rewarding than any other mon, and people agree with me". i am in favour of machoke being banned alongside machamp. dpp ou is my favourite metagame and machamp dynamic punch detracts from that.

if you're looking for support on your dynamic punch argument; i 100% support dynamic punch being banned over machamp or no guard. hell, ill go further. i support the ban of *any move than inflicts confusion upon the opponent*. its not a case of viability, and being able to handle it, its a case of being rewarded for the computer saying "1" instead of "0" rather than skill. if froslass can be banned, if swagger klefki can be banned in later generations, then i hope this can be banned. i approach this whole thing as a "should this be rewarded reliably" and a lot of the counter arguments are "can this be rewarded reliably, so i dont think i can change my mind on this unless they take a different angle
 
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Arguments about what exactly would/should get banned between Machamp/No Guard/Dynamic Punch are pointless and only distractions from the main point of contention. It's not up to the council, tiering admins or whoever will tell them what they can or can't ban for whatever reason. Though I think in the end if Machamp got banned people would start using Machoke then No Guard would get banned the next week lol.
While I sympathize with the sentiment expressed by pro-ban posters in this thread, I feel like they are overlooking the positive influence Machamp has on DPP.

It's no secret that due to Latias's reintroduction, Stall's viability has rose exponentially. Stall cores that feature Clefable, Skarmory, Latias, and/or Hippowdon are extremely difficult to break. What Machamp offers is a tool to break those stalls without the support of Pursuit Tyranitar. The big reason why Machamp is so good against these teams is that it can afford to stay in on a Latias that's just switched into Dynamic Punch to follow up with a Payback: if Latias hits itself it's basically dead; if it doesn't, it's still confused and has to flip the same coin on the next turn. No other Fighting type has this trait, since Latias can just easily set up a Reflect, or cripple it with Thunder Wave. What Dynamic Punch does is stack the odds in Machamp's favor. That's not to say that Machamp completely roflstomps those teams though! It still requires good play to use DP's modest 8 PP to good efficiency. Multiple DPs are needed to get through the bulkier walls like Skarm and Hippo, so you can't afford to waste them.

It's very difficult to predict how tiering action will affect tiering in the long run. I (and many others) feel like the effects of Latias on the metagame were poorly understood at the time of both votes. For this reason I don't want to make grand predictions about the outcome of a Machamp ban. However I feel like saying that the archetype that would benefit the most for this would be Stall, since it would further centralize the tools we have to combat it.
You are right that stall would benefit of course, so would balance teams, I'd say those are the teams that struggle the most with Machamp. Though I'd say offense can struggle a lot vs Machamp too, particularly when its paired with paralysis. It's not uncommon to see a line like Azelf or Starmie click TWave vs Tyranitar, die, then Machamp comes in and spams sub with pretty good odds to get a full para then gets 2 KOs, sometimes 1 and a half. Other Pokemon can do this too but not the same degree as Machamp imo and the other Pokemon that can do it are simply less good.

Anyway my main point is that the dynamic of stall/balance vs Machamp is unhealthy and not worth preserving even if it does make stall/balance a bit better (I don't think this is an inherently bad thing btw, stall often has to fish I feel and removing some strain on the builder would be good). There's plenty ways of dealing with stall and Machamp doesn't even do it the most reliably, I much rather have something like Breloom (which doesn't need Pursuit Tyranitar support either, DD Tyranitar is good with it too) or even Infernape.

Maybe some examples will make my point more clear:
1719811413787.png

I really like these 2 teams I think they're great and reliable, but whenever I load them I feel like I have to pray vs Machamp to not get unlucky. I just think that's lame. Look at this replay as an example, I had to avoid many confusions to not get decimated by Machamp lmao, of course there's more nuance since Pokemon is complex but I think you get the point. I'd point to this replay too, Pideous loads a totally fine team but gets punished for it because Machamp is dumb. I don't even think the teams Void and Soulwind used are particularly good, I feel like they rely on their luck a lot to win some match ups, unlike other more reliable forms of "paraspam" (Mie Zap CB Tar Jira + 2) which have much more player agency and reliability imo, they're a good team first with the bonus of paralysis rather than relying on it and confusion to win. I know people will point to these replays and say "Jirachi does the same thing" and yeah sometimes Pokemon is dumb but as BKC established, Jirachi is a more integral part of DPP OU than Machamp is.

Your points aren't wrong I just don't think they're sufficient enough reason to keep this mon in the tier and I disagree with the premise that making stall/balance a bit better or reliable is a bad thing and as I said I think a Machamp ban does also benefit offense too. Maybe I could have explained better but at the end of the day I simply think No Guard Dynamic punch is broken and uncompetitive and the tier would be better without it, that's all really.
 

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While I sympathize with the sentiment expressed by pro-ban posters in this thread, I feel like they are overlooking the positive influence Machamp has on DPP.

It's no secret that due to Latias's reintroduction, Stall's viability has rose exponentially. Stall cores that feature Clefable, Skarmory, Latias, and/or Hippowdon are extremely difficult to break. What Machamp offers is a tool to break those stalls without the support of Pursuit Tyranitar. The big reason why Machamp is so good against these teams is that it can afford to stay in on a Latias that's just switched into Dynamic Punch to follow up with a Payback: if Latias hits itself it's basically dead; if it doesn't, it's still confused and has to flip the same coin on the next turn. No other Fighting type has this trait, since Latias can just easily set up a Reflect, or cripple it with Thunder Wave. What Dynamic Punch does is stack the odds in Machamp's favor. That's not to say that Machamp completely roflstomps those teams though! It still requires good play to use DP's modest 8 PP to good efficiency. Multiple DPs are needed to get through the bulkier walls like Skarm and Hippo, so you can't afford to waste them.

It's very difficult to predict how tiering action will affect tiering in the long run. I (and many others) feel like the effects of Latias on the metagame were poorly understood at the time of both votes. For this reason I don't want to make grand predictions about the outcome of a Machamp ban. However I feel like saying that the archetype that would benefit the most for this would be Stall, since it would further centralize the tools we have to combat it
I think other fighting types offer the trait of being able to break stalls and Latias without Tyranitar's Pursuit support. Hariyama (Guts Bulk Up, sets up on Latias), Heracross (Bug STAB/SD + Night Slash), Infernape (strong U-turn), Lucario (Jolly SD Crunch), and Breloom (Swords Dance 3 Attacks/Spore Focus Punch) are examples of other Fighting-types that can effectively break common stall cores without Pursuit support/similar support that Machamp wants (Healing Wish/Wish, paralysis support).

I agree that DP's 8 PP can require good play to use effectively, but I want to push back on this being healthy. You reference Skarm/Hippo as needing multiple DP to break through, but it's not exactly the case. At most, Machamp needs 2 to break through Skarm and 1 to break through Hippo (it induces confusion on Hippo and spams ice punch/random moves to try to catch predicts). Additionally, Lunar Dance strategies can be effectively used to mitigate Machamp's PP loss, which from my experience renders Dynamic Punch PP management to not matter. Take a look at this replay and see for yourself. Is this really a healthy Pokemon to have in the metagame? I know this strategy is rare but it's been used for years (think BKC's old HO) so it's worth mentioning. But in the end I think Machamp has enough PP to where its PP is not an issue; and if it's used its PP, it has probably done significant damage in doing so.

I agree that we should not make grand predictions about how the tier will be after a Machamp ban. However, I want to reiterate that I don't think Machamp is even especially great against stall. Breloom is an example of a Pokemon with significantly more longevity, better typing, access to Spore, Stun Spore, Swords Dance, and other valuable moves that is much more consistent against defensive teams than Machamp. I believe Machamp is just as good against offense as it is against stall, and equally restricts both playstyles. Machamp with paralysis support and momentum will destroy anything in its path with good dice rolls, and if anything it doesn't have to deal with PP issues against teams with less longevity!

Ultimately, I think Jirachee's post is a good one and his conclusions are reasonable. I just feel differently about the positives he describes and wanted to explain why I feel they are not positives worth hanging on to at the expense of the negatives.

---

Annoying moderation note but posts solely focusing on the No Guard/Dpunch/Machamp policy debacle will be deleted from this thread. My previous post and Kristyl's above describe the situation and if you want to focus on policy, this is not the forum to do so. Please use Policy Review for those types of discussions, thanks!
 
I had a great w-e, I posted a pic of me during sat night on dpp serv ( I even sang in french ):boi:. Anyway :


Ban No Guard. We don't need to wait to discuss about banning Jirachi to ban No Guard. Priority argument makes no sense. We have an occasion to ban an unfair mech that doesn't add anything POSITIVE to this tier. Just go for it ? What do you want to wait ?
We can keep Champ cause it pressures Clef and slow builds esp with Guts and Bulk Up. Hariyama will maybe get more usages.

Maybe then Jirachi ( not really in favor but since a lot of players want it, the majority wins. I would love to ban IHead but yeah we can't ! ) / Togekiss / Confuse Ray will be the next ones.
 
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I can see an argument between a Machamp ban and a Dynamic Punch ban, but I think we should really rule out a no guard ban.

Like, what is the thing that actually breaks the game here? Is it the trait that stops stone edge from missing, or is it the coin toss move that causes even more coin tosses?
echo this af

dpunch is stupid without no guard
no guard is not stupid without dpunch

banning no guard is hella backwards and makes no sense whatsoever, in fact it makes the game more competitive

I don’t really care about no guard because it’s not gonna be that significant either way but I think the philosophy here is so wrong because you’re objectively removing more (healthy) options for no reason at all

if you ban machamp, sure because machamp is stupid but if you ban no guard I see no reason to not axe dpunch first considering it’s literally swagger with less accuracy
 
echo this af

dpunch is stupid without no guard
no guard is not stupid without dpunch

banning no guard is hella backwards and makes no sense whatsoever, in fact it makes the game more competitive

I don’t really care about no guard because it’s not gonna be that significant either way but I think the philosophy here is so wrong because you’re objectively removing more (healthy) options for no reason at all

if you ban machamp, sure because machamp is stupid but if you ban no guard I see no reason to not axe dpunch first considering it’s literally swagger with less accuracy
I completely agree, I've never been a fan of the ban on Pokemon in general. I prefer a meta with a wide variety of options, not just limited to Jirachee, Latios, TTar, and a few others. It's frustrating to see over 100 Pokemon being overshadowed by a "big 5". The recent surge in Machamp's popularity is solely due to this ongoing debate. Before this, no one really paid much attention to him or had any complaints.
 
I completely agree, I've never been a fan of the ban on Pokemon in general. I prefer a meta with a wide variety of options, not just limited to Jirachee, Latios, TTar, and a few others. It's frustrating to see over 100 Pokemon being overshadowed by a "big 5". The recent surge in Machamp's popularity is solely due to this ongoing debate. Before this, no one really paid much attention to him or had any complaints.
Hugo's comment isn't about the philosophy on removing entire pokemon.
It's about removing 1 piece of the DP + NG combo.

And for some reason there are people (like Excal) who are convinced that NG is the culprit (it's not).
Altho it probably doesn't matter which piece of exodia gets banned, I'd prefer to see the real evildoer go (DP).

DP is stupid without NG
NG is not stupid without DP
therefore DP should be banned (if possible because TC lelelelele)
like Kristyl highlighted, TC will probably decide what our options are (YIPPIE we love TC) so we probably shouldn't spend too much time discussing what to ban between NG/DP.
 
DPP is one of my favorite metagame of all time, and it is the generation where a lot people got introduced to Smogon / competitive pokemon

With that being said, Paralysis spam is probably the worst aspect about this gen. It rewards "bad" play by people spamming Twave, hoping for a paralysis and not get punished. This, in conjunction with many para abusers like Jirachi, Machamp, Gya etc, made the game an RNGfest and can reduce the effect of a player choice to an extreme degree. Machamp is not broken, but it is uncompetitive and often encourages "bad" play by just spam clicking Dynamic Punch hoping for a confusion (very similar to Iron Head Jirachi).

I do not think that Machamp should be the #1 priority on the ban list. Pokemon like Jirachi or maybe even Clefable are way more centralizing and restrictive to teambuilding. But because Jirachi and Clef are so centralizing, banning these mons straight out could lead to a worse and undesirable meta, or it could be a better and healthier meta. It is impossible to predict. One of the reason people played old gens is for the stability, familiarity, and they don't want big sweeping changes every 6 months. Machamp is a lot less prominent than those 2 mons, so it is reasonable to assume that banning Machamp would result in a smaller meta shift.

In an ideal world, I would support suspecting Iron Head first, and No Guard Machamp. These two are clearly the two standout uncompetitive elements in the tier. But due to Smogon ridiculous tiering policy, we have to suspect the pokemon itself. The tier would probably change too much without Jirachi, so I support a Machamp / No Guard / Dynamic Punch suspect, whichever is fine.

Plus, this would just be a suspect test. It does not necessarily mean Machamp will definitely get ban. And I would also propose if Machamp does get ban, we re-visit it in the future (1 year). Machamp does function as a defensive check against some threats, and more importantly, punished greedy slow bulky Clefable team. If stall became too over-bearing because of Machamp ban, we do have an option to reverse the decision.
 
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