Rejected Wrap in RBY OU

[ABR]

I am posting this to gauge RBY community input on Wrap, as it often just takes the game out of players' hands and turns everything into un-interactive dice rolls. I think Wrap is the only move worthy of tiering action, as Clamp / Fire Spin are plagued by worse pp and accuracy. Dragonite / Victreebel are the most common Wrap users but not the only ones.

Common counterplay basically includes
- Gengar (still can't move and punished by eq bull / rhydon)
- Consecutive dodges (as you can miss wrap on switch and just use it again, especially stacked with para odds)
- Critting the Wrap user (pretty much the only way to ohko nite vic)
- PP stall (it's tough to take 32-64 wraps and not be in a losing position after)

Counterplay is obviously possible and sometimes Wrap teams totally fall flat - but I'm of the opinion that the outcome of these games don't really involve how well people play. Either way I would like to see how more people feel on the matter.

I welcome anyone to post replays of Wrap winning or losing, here are some of mine from the past few months:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-719377 (cup finals, win)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-719382 (cup finals, win)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-707136 (invitational, loss)

Cheers

 

[Sabelette]

Not to post a one liner throwaway but I feel like this conversation has been had over and over even as we see Wrap really only work when it catches people unready. Most teams have multiple fast psychics that can paralyze Wrap users

 

[Heroic Troller]

My take has not changed over the years, it doesn't matter how much counter play there is, or misses, whatever. Wrap doesn't do any good for the tier, literally not one thing besides enforcing game on dice rolling that can go either way. There are a lot of things in rby that can be classified as fishing, but each and any of them serve their purpose besides it. Ice attacks can freeze, but are also key coverage for everything that gets them, par status is speed control and something that greatly limits how much you can be reckless with your best sweepers and so on. If anyone cares about the health of the metagame wrap will be banned, but then again, everyone seems afraid to touch anything in this tier. I bet ohko moves would not get banned if they were still around. I have given up on this, but i still wonder, why are we the most behind in term of tiering? Why is every other tier striving to do better but not us?

Also limiting wrap to "just carry a fast psychic" is such a ridicolous reply, way to hit the point really.

 

[Sabelette]

Also limiting wrap to "just carry a fast psychic" is such a ridicolous reply, way to hit the point really.

Not what I’m saying and obviously there’s more to it but people never play like the opposing team could have wrap until a victreebel comes out and then they get rolled by it, you can say it’s uninteractive but i have my doubts about “broken”

I included fast psychics because that wasn’t listed as counterplay by ABR

Edit: also it’s really clear wrap alone isn’t a problem or we’d see tentacruel, it’s wrap + para so by tiering standards sorry but you’re arguing to ban vic nite and bok, not wrap as a whole. if you wanna send those 3 to ubers be my guest

 

[gastlies]

If you let everything get paralyzed such that you get 6-0ed by Wrap, that's on you. Status management is a big part of RBY, and if you lose to Wrap because you let your entire team take para, you would probably end up losing to other things such as Snorlax or Rhydon anyway. Therefore, the main issue I can see with Wrap is that it forces mons who don't like para to stay in on a para move, like how Alakazam was forced to take Thunder Wave from Dragonite on turn 49 of your first replay. In that case, the issue is paralysis + wrap, not the move itself, since a good player would easily be able to play around a Wrap team where the wrappers can't spread para. Cloyster is a non-issue because it has no way to paralyze the opponent, not because of Clamp's accuracy or PP. Also, Smogon's tiering policy has always been "ban the mon first then the move if it's problematic on all users" and I doubt anyone has issues with Lickitung or Tentacruel, so we should really go after Victreebel/Dragonite if we take action (which i don't think we should)

 

[ABR]

I would be content with the ban of all partial trapping moves, I just know they’re less urgent than wrap so I don’t want to push for them.

We have banned things like Swagger and Baton Pass even though they only break “some” mons and not all.

I’m aware this conversation itself has been had but I don’t recall a vote being had among qualified RBY’ers, so that feels like an important step. If it’s voted on and a majority wants Wrap unbanned then yea there’s nothing else to say.

 

[Sabelette]

Baton Pass breaks any reasonable mon and Swagger has no use in singles beyond luck fishing, that is very different from partial trapping which allows safe pivots into threats. We’re really just talking about the Wrap users with paralysis moves, and only 2 of those at that (I don’t think anyone is gonna argue Arbok is too good). There is no way there is a case to ban the move.

 

[Excal]

I disagree with the notion of having to ban all partial trapping moves as opposed to Wrap alone. Like Troller alluded to above, moves like Clamp and Fire Spin function very differently compared to wrap due to accuracy, type, the Pokemon using them, as well as the PP limitations. Additionally, I think the cartridge accurate mechanics conversation is a different one to be had and shouldn't derail this thread. We can't die on that hill while Counter still remains patched, and this should not stop us from taking action on Wrap in the meanwhile.

ABR's game against Serpi in RBY Cup Finals concerned me. Given the structure ABR revealed (Alakazam / Starmie / Snorlax / Tauros), I don't think Serpi could have done anything to account for Wrap abusers in the back. It's not as simple as "fast Psychics can paralyze wrap users". This puts a strain on playing that I feel will be more prominently felt as Wrap continues its resurgence in light of ABR's strong performance with it in high stakes matches.

I don't have a strong basis on the history behind Wrap discussions, but I support suspecting/banning it for a healthier RBY OU metagame. If we have to send Victreebel/Dragonite/whoever else to Ubers instead to adhere to strict tiering policy, then that's better than no possibility of a test. These Pokemon would not be worth using without Wrap in their toolkit.

 

[Amaranth]

Wrap is not uninteractive. It is not a Swagger-type situation where its only purpose is lucking through stuff.

Wrap is one of very few tools to pressure the slow dominant pieces of RBY OU (Snorlax, Chansey). It has competitive merits and it really doesn't introduce inconsistency to games any more than the vast majority of elements in RBY.

I liken Wrap to something like modern gens Focus Blasts. You don't love that you have to click it, but sometimes you gotta roll that 70%. That's just not a problem in the slightest to me, it's part of Pokémon.

I am seriously unconvinced of arguments that anything Wrap does is particularly unhealthy. The Wrap user has to (1) build extremely creatively, as simply sticking Victreebel or Dragonite as 6th in a normal structure usually falls completely flat, (2) risk negative match ups (and I don't mean Gengar, who does nothing and lets Tauros in, I mean things like Zapdos who outspeed and twave and completely outtrade), and (3) pilot correctly to force paralysis on would-be Wrap answers, and (4) get the luck required. I think 1-3 are very healthy parts of the metagame, and 4 can be applied to basically any pokemon in RBY lol.

Are we really going after the 15% Wrap miss when Tauros is running around every game with a 20% to crit OHKO pretty much every pokemon in the tier, Ice Beam is often just used as a 10% OHKO move, and everything is paralyzed with a 25% to straight up do nothing every turn? The RNG introduced by Wrap is really not any more significant than the RNG that is already everywhere in RBY. It is an unavoidable and inherent part of our game. And dismissing the strategic merits of Wrap altogether is really silly.

I’m aware this conversation itself has been had but I don’t recall a vote being had among qualified RBY’ers, so that feels like an important step. If it’s voted on and a majority wants Wrap unbanned then yea there’s nothing else to say.

2019 Survey showed 18 out of 40 voters have interest in "some kind of Wrap ban", while 22 did not; in Peasounay's breakdown of the votes he mentions that 12 were strongly pro-ban, 3 were interested in nuanced restrictions moreso than a full ban, and the other 3 presumably did not elaborate on it. This was at the peak of Victreebel's viability, when it rose to OU and was #12 in usage in SPL (7.33% usage, above Jolteon, Gengar, and Slowbro). It's been a few years, but the metagame imo has only shifted towards making Wrap even less problematic, since the dominant structures are generally way sturdier against it today than they were back then.



Zapdos is at its lowest point in a few years, people are punishing that with Victreebel occasionally. People will realize everyone's underprepping for Zapdos, it will rise again, Victreebel will be bad again. This to me is a perfectly normal and healthy metagame dynamic, indicative of a pokemon with a healthy but narrow niche in the metagame.
Sometimes people are weak to Victreebel and it hits all the wraps and wins. Sometimes people are weak to Slowbro and they don't crit it enough and it wins. Sometimes Tauros goes for Hyper Beam 3 times and fucking mauls everything lol. This is just part of the game, not nearly egregious enough to warrant tiering action

 

[ABR]

Can we have a vote? Again, it would be easy to accept any result but seems harmless to actually vote on it.

I would also like to see the SPL playerbase vote on bo1, and 255s be patched, but one step at a time.

 

[HANTSUKI]

I've been saying to ban Wrap for more than a decade but for some reason people still keep it in the game despite not adding anything good to the tier. I doubt something will be done at this point........

But for real why do we keep it? It's not a matter of being broken or not, it's just not fun and competitive at all. Just remove it. No one will cry about it, no one will start some riot about Smogon Policy or anything, the reasoning is pretty fair and don't break any rules. Just get it done, hello.

 

[Karxrida]

255s should only be patched if we use the Stadium version of 1/65,536 so misses will be infinitely funnier.

Real talk though, don't touch it. You know what luck bullshit you're signing up for when you play RBY with its insta-death freezes and jank crit rates. The random chance to miss is just another part of that RNG.

 

[Hipmonlee]

First game was awesome, G2 you were way ahead long before wrap came out (admittedly, because you had two pokemon that beat up surfmie, but that isnt so much an issue with wrap), and G3 your early advantage got you into the situation where you had a zam crit chance to take out Gengar, but not getting it left you with your very matchup fishy team catching a terrible matchup. What's broken here?

It's really not that hard to take 32 wraps and still be able to win, it's roughly a Pokemon and a half's worth of damage. Yeah, with matchups, sometimes that will cost you the game, _if_ your opponent hits them all. But a crit KO can easily give you a half pokemon advantage as well. With 64 wraps its actually really quite unlikely you'll take them all, and there are _big_ drawbacks to wrap users. Having two of them on a team is a serious cost.

The issue with Wrap to me still seems to just be that it's slow. Yeah, it means you get a lot of turns where you don't have to think much, mostly because it takes a lot of turns to do any damage. But that slowness is really the only way that it's substantively different to Zapdos or Slowbro.

And a big upside of wrap is that Nite and Vic are big punishes to surfmie. Which I personally think is a pretty positive addition to the Meta.