XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]

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  1. Do nothing and keep the metagame as it is;
Well, I think that Baton Pass doesn't ruin, but kinda dents the metagame from being completely fair/full of skill. Baton Pass is kinda of unfair, the average player can work a Baton Pass strategy without any skill, which really isn't something honorable. Baton Pass can be stopped in quite a few ways, but it sorta forces us to use thing as mad as Musharna or Topsy Turvy Malamar to counter them. At the moment, the only good way to counter Baton Pass is by using Taunt on a Prankster user, and that's bounced back by Espeon, which is a pretty common Baton Pass user. Really, Baton Pass should have some sort of change to it, because at the moment, it's causing games that are one-sided.
  1. Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team (complex ban);
Probably not too much of a good idea, because Pokemon such as Scolipede can pass Speed, Defense, and Attack boosts, all of which can cause a sweep. 3 Pokemon themself with Baton Pass are already are hell, so no to this.
  1. Ban the combination of the move Baton Pass in conjunction with the ability Magic Bounce and the ability Speed Boost (complex ban).
Yes, probably the best idea here. Magic Bounce blocks Taunt, which is basically why BP is such a threat. Speed Boost makes everything hell, really, which makes it so that you basically look at getting swept, which sucks, Speed Boost and Magic Bounce should be banned imo.
 
The Shellder Smuggler said:
  1. Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team (complex ban);
Probably not too much of a good idea, because Pokemon such as Scolipede can pass Speed, Defense, and Attack boosts, all of which can cause a sweep. 3 Pokemon themself with Baton Pass are already are hell, so no to this.
Click to expand...
are you trying to say quickpassing is broken? because quickpassing isn't broken
 
Delibird is Amazing said:
are you trying to say quickpassing is broken? because quickpassing isn't broken
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Well, in my eyes, it just kinda fucks you over. It's not really broken, but you don't know how to counter it really because most baton pass teams pack and espeon with magic bounce (lol fuck u taunt), but idk, I don't think it's broken, that's not what I meant.
 
My issue with option #3 is that while it deals with baton pass chains as a whole, it also eliminates another rare but still viable playstyle in quickpass. Given that the point of a complex ban is to deal with broken threats while attempting to circumvent the non-immediate effects of the ban (in terms of the nondesired impact on other playstyles and pokemon), I believe that #2 is the best option. #3 as a whole seems counterproductive to this purpose.
 
Smog Frog said:
Ok

Was the team Scolipede/Espeon/Sylveon/Vaporeon/Smeargle/Mr.Mime or Zapdos? Because that shit is EVERYWHERE at the top of the ladder, and it takes A LOT of preparation to beat.(I'll give its overprepared for, but that just shows how unhealthy it is.) And a crit is LITERALLY the only way an unprepared team beats BP, its so fucking broken. I ask that you look at http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/genius-pass-standard-baton-pass-chain.3506272/ , it shows how you are SUPPOSED to build BP. Not going to bother laddering for reqs because I KNOW its going to be nerfed its so blatantly broken. it's so incredibly match up reliant, and thus halts the development of the metagame. Please, reconsider your option.
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I haven't been to the top of the OU tier, haven't been playing it for that long. I mainly frequent random battles and doubles, so I didn't realise it was so widespread at the top of the OU ladder.

I still don't think it should be banned but I know it will. Can only try to prevent it lol.
 
You are not going to counter entire BP teams with a single move. Forget it. If that was easy, not one would use bp teams.

You don't counter entire teams. You use things that have a decent chance of winning. Things like Haze Quagsire, Mega Pinsir, Mega Zard Y, Belly Drum Azumarill, Thundurus, Mega Gardevoir, stallbreaker Gengar... they don't have 100% chance of winning against bp, but they have a good fighting chance. It's a matter of putting enough offensive pressure.

Now, I've tried to use a BP team in the last few days. I think it's probably overpowered. But it's nowhere nearly as invincible as some people are saying. It can be beaten. There are many OU pokemon who threat the chain from the beginning and stop it from getting the boosts. The problem is that the bp team has so many tools to work with, and so many defensive options, that they can stall the threat and eventually eliminate it.

If you recuce the number of bp mons, you reduce the room they have to survive attacks, since there is less HP to work with. You also reduce the number of available tools. It becomes a one-shot thing, you have to get those boosts in the first try without having the chance toi switch out every time a new threat appears.
 
Obviously the council knows what it's doing and the options he decided upon are here to stay.
One point I want to mention regarding them is that any decision made should be kept as affecting OU and attending OU's broken aspects, which most agree are combination of Espeon and Scolipede on full Baton Pass teams. The tiers below OU should experience the decision made here as less as possible. Although I believe in all of current UU, RU and the newly NU there are no full baton pass teams, some might emerge that will prove to be viable and not overly powerful. If option n. 2 is selected, these kind of ok strategy in lower teams would be unjustifiably banned because of non-related issues in a different (but higher) tier. Option n. 3 is also tricky since upon its execution, Espeon and Scolipede will most likely drop to UU (the later is already in UU range). There, one of them might be perfectly fine as a Baton Pass user on non-full BP teams but will not get the chance to run it, thus majorly nerfing them (Espeon can viably use it to escape Pursuit users as RotomPoison mentioned). A more specific negative outcome is nerfing Ninjask immensely as it won't be able, in any tier, use it's own Speed Boost + Baton Speed strategy although it isn't anywhere near being overpowered. I guess I'm just posting this to give some food for thought.
 
Well what can I say, its been a few weeks since the discussion topic closed, and some more weeks since it was opened, and even back when it was opened I wasnt sure if a BP nerf is needed and with the time passing I came more and more to the conclusion that its not.

I play like 5 games a day and during the whole last week I had a whooping 3 encounters with BP (~1800 region on the ladder), looking at the names of the pokemon 2 of those encounters were probably against Denisss himself and I won 2 out of those 3. That basicly represents my experience against BP as a whole. Its not very common, like 1 out of 10 at most, and even if i run into it I cant say that i feel helpless against it. In fact I can safely say that i win more games against it than i lose and i have nothing on my teams thats even close to beeing a BP counter. If I play my cards right i have a good chance of winning and even if i get outplayed there is always the chance that i get the one crit needed to win and thats not even that unlikely given that BP needs a while to accumulate enough boosts for a sweep. If i get outplayed and unlucky I lose but i cant say i feel bad about that, its no different from losing to other archetypes.
I guess i would be thinking differently if i were a stall player as that would make it alot harder to beat BP and would require questionable choices like Haze Quag to have any chance but i am not and since i dislike stall as a playstyle even more than BP, i dont realy care and stall is certainly not going to die from using Clearfog on Amungoos or Haze on Quagsire. Certainly not ideal but not a big issue either. Balanced teams have to dedicate a whole teamslot to have a good chance against stall and nobody complains about that, but using a single moveslot on stall to deal with BP kills the meta? Doubt it.

However, with the majority of players here wanting it banned i guess i wont even bother getting voting reqs. It will be banned anyway even if i were to vote against it and i dont realy care if it does so why bother. Imo it isnt needed but if everybody wants it gone... why not.
 
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Also, has anyone taken into account that alot of BP team victories are ragequits? I get 7/10 people rage quitting as soon as I sub my scolipede.

I think I've gained at least a good 1000 points from people quitting as soon as they see the BP team, but I guess theres no way of recording or knowing what the percentage of that happening is.
 
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I'm close to the voting reqs and I've successfully used both a BP team and anti-BP team featuring Mega Pinsir and BD Azu. The funny thing is, even though almost every single person I've faced has been prepared for it, my Baton Pass team has been winning about every 3 out of 4 games (excluding first/second turn forfeits). It isn't a matter of simply running Haze Quagsire, Greninja, or something along those lines. To successfully have a chance at combating BP teams without relying on hax, you have to have multiple moves/teamslots to counter it. For this reason, I'm probably going to go with option #2.
 
Frankly, I think quick passing speed and defense is in fact broken. Speed and defense are startlingly synergistic stats as speed allows you to always go first except for priority, but all priority is physical, and +2 defense neuters all but the absolute strongest forms of priority.

Here is a highish level replay showing how a couple of early game misplays against scoli can easily lead to an unstoppable sweep.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-116105693

This replay does NOT prove that scolipede is op, it DOES prove that quick pass can easily sweep even prepared teams without any difficulty when given a chance.

While not my absolute preferred option, I'm going to vote option 3 (I don't think espeon is what's breaking BP versus stall).

*edit*

Sleepless It's worth noting that scolipede was quick banned during the UU NP stage. While it will prolly get retested if it drops down, I kind of doubt that it will be let back in (it's basically a better venomoth at the absolute least). Dunno what'll happen to espeon if/when it drops, but it'll prolly be fine in UU. I don't see it breaking anything.
 
Do we need to use a new alt for this ladder? I think that the points I got on the Swagplay ladder got carried over to this one.
 
Mowtom said:
Do we need to use a new alt for this ladder? I think that the points I got on the Swagplay ladder got carried over to this one.
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The Ladder will be resetted soon as stated in the op so no you dont need a new alt.

MikeDawg look at post 7 from Haunter, Zarel will reset the ladder as soon as he comes online, so yes you wasted your time^^
 
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I can't believe we're going to ban baton pass. Seriously?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-123784800

These strategies are so bloody transparent it's disgusting. Does no one carry priority taunt, perish song, whirlwind, unaware, et cetera? Baton Pass hasn't changed at all this gen, if Scoliopede is the problem, ban him, but baton pass itself has been a strategy for multiple generations now and its abuse has never been a workable strategy -- ever. Baton Pass teams are the most predictable teams in existence, as shown in my replay above. They are also a weak-link team - if a single pokemon in the chain gets bested the team falls apart, it's more gimmicky than durant+truant; I can't believe people are still entertaining this discussion.

Stealth Rock is more constraining than fucking Baton Pass at this point; how many pokemon are made invalid with a single move that takes a single turn to set-up? If we're going to ban a move as fundamental as baton pass I think I'm just going to give up on OU and smogon in general - quite frankly, you shouldn't be able to remove fundamental strategies like baton pass, it's baffling people are even discussing this seriously. It's a FOTM, it will pass, and it's easy to predict and counter, even with pokemon like Mr. Mime and Espeon on teams -- they're transparently easy to predict and defeat.

Nothing good comes from a ban like this, it will just reduce the quality and variety of strategies available in the long run for all tiers.

The common suspects are as follows:

Espeon - Countered hard by Perish Song and physical dark attacks
Scoliopede - Countered hard by Perish song, special psychic/ground attacks
Mr. Mime - Countered hard by Entrain+Perish Song, Whirlwind, taunt, roar
Smeargle - Countered hard by sleep talk, magic coat, taunt, whirlwind, roar, any attacking move

All you really need is someone with Unaware and a baton pass team is fucked. But if you carry Perish Song, you can probably use it and shut down their whole team -- and if they have Mr. Mime, you'll probably see that baton pass coming a mile away, so you can easily throw a taunt in there.

If you don't have perish song, you must have roar or whirlwind or something -- use it. If you know they will respond with Espeon, which they will, don't use it, predict the switch and go for a dark attack. If you do this intelligently, they will have NO CHOICE but to switch to espeon to take a hit.

Toxic Spikes is also an alternative counter, or red card, or hell, numerous other things you should probably have on your team anyway. I've always had taunt or perish song or ww in my team since the moves came out -- I thought this was OU, where it was assumed people would use these old tools that have never become ineffective at destroying these cheese strategies.

I swear, banning baton pass would be like banning zerg rushes, or something.
 
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anubite said:
I can't believe we're going to ban baton pass. Seriously?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-123784800

These strategies are so bloody transparent it's disgusting. Does no one carry priority taunt, perish song, whirlwind, unaware, et cetera? Baton Pass hasn't changed at all this gen, if Scoliopede is the problem, ban him, but baton pass itself has been a strategy for multiple generations now and its abuse has never been a workable strategy -- ever. Baton Pass teams are the most predictable teams in existence, as shown in my replay above. They are also a weak-link team - if a single pokemon in the chain gets bested the team falls apart, it's more gimmicky than durant+truant; I can't believe people are still entertaining this discussion.
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That was a horrible replay. Firstly, if you have to resort to Perish trapping to beat a Baton Pass team, BP is clearly over centralizing and very hard if not impossible to beat. Second, why on Earth would anyone use a non-Drizzle Politoed? Neither player was skilled in that match. Third, Mr. Mime is common on BP teams and is immune to Perish Song.

Also, you do not present a good argument. It has been shown over and over that Quagsire cannot stop BP teams, nor can phasing, and even early offensive pressure can fail. Please don't post here if you are only going to spout nonsense.
 
Mowtom said:
and even early offensive pressure can fail.
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Like I said before "can fail" is different from "will always fail". No method is guaranteed to win against bp, but there are a lot of things who can give you a good fighting chance. It all boils down to player skill.

Look, I know that doesn't prove bp is not broken, but please stop with the absolutes. Baton Pass is not 100% invincible. Nor it 100% loses against anything.
 
WebBowser said:
Frankly, I think quick passing speed and defense is in fact broken. Speed and defense are startlingly synergistic stats as speed allows you to always go first except for priority, but all priority is physical, and +2 defense neuters all but the absolute strongest forms of priority.

Here is a highish level replay showing how a couple of early game misplays against scoli can easily lead to an unstoppable sweep.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-116105693

This replay does NOT prove that scolipede is op, it DOES prove that quick pass can easily sweep even prepared teams without any difficulty when given a chance.

While not my absolute preferred option, I'm going to vote option 3 (I don't think espeon is what's breaking BP versus stall).

*edit*

Sleepless It's worth noting that scolipede was quick banned during the UU NP stage. While it will prolly get retested if it drops down, I kind of doubt that it will be let back in (it's basically a better venomoth at the absolute least). Dunno what'll happen to espeon if/when it drops, but it'll prolly be fine in UU. I don't see it breaking anything.
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It's hardly relevant to post a replay of someone who has no clue how to play against BP playing against BP. The point here is that all top players know the exact format of Dennis' team, and yet can't do anything against it unprepared, and even prepared have less chance winning than losing unless the preparation is something which is otherwise not effective in OU.
 
If it wasn't clear, the ladder has not been resetted yet. Don't waste your time laddering until it's resetted (waiting for Zarel to log on PS! to do it).

Also, we don't care if you don't like this suspect test. Complaining about our tiering policies will just result into your post being deleted and infracted (see rule #4 in my OP). If you think Baton Pass shouldn't get any nerf, then qualify for voting and vote for option #1.
 
anubite said:
I can't believe we're going to ban baton pass. Seriously?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-123784800

These strategies are so bloody transparent it's disgusting. Does no one carry priority taunt, perish song, whirlwind, unaware, et cetera? Baton Pass hasn't changed at all this gen, if Scoliopede is the problem, ban him, but baton pass itself has been a strategy for multiple generations now and its abuse has never been a workable strategy -- ever. Baton Pass teams are the most predictable teams in existence, as shown in my replay above. They are also a weak-link team - if a single pokemon in the chain gets bested the team falls apart, it's more gimmicky than durant+truant; I can't believe people are still entertaining this discussion.

Stealth Rock is more constraining than fucking Baton Pass at this point; how many pokemon are made invalid with a single move that takes a single turn to set-up? If we're going to ban a move as fundamental as baton pass I think I'm just going to give up on OU and smogon in general - quite frankly, you shouldn't be able to remove fundamental strategies like baton pass, it's baffling people are even discussing this seriously. It's a FOTM, it will pass, and it's easy to predict and counter, even with pokemon like Mr. Mime and Espeon on teams -- they're transparently easy to predict and defeat.

Nothing good comes from a ban like this, it will just reduce the quality and variety of strategies available in the long run for all tiers.

The common suspects are as follows:

Espeon - Countered hard by Perish Song and physical dark attacks
Scoliopede - Countered hard by Perish song, special psychic/ground attacks
Mr. Mime - Countered hard by Entrain+Perish Song, Whirlwind, taunt, roar
Smeargle - Countered hard by sleep talk, magic coat, taunt, whirlwind, roar, any attacking move

All you really need is someone with Unaware and a baton pass team is fucked. But if you carry Perish Song, you can probably use it and shut down their whole team -- and if they have Mr. Mime, you'll probably see that baton pass coming a mile away, so you can easily throw a taunt in there.

If you don't have perish song, you must have roar or whirlwind or something -- use it. If you know they will respond with Espeon, which they will, don't use it, predict the switch and go for a dark attack. If you do this intelligently, they will have NO CHOICE but to switch to espeon to take a hit.

Toxic Spikes is also an alternative counter, or red card, or hell, numerous other things you should probably have on your team anyway. I've always had taunt or perish song or ww in my team since the moves came out -- I thought this was OU, where it was assumed people would use these old tools that have never become ineffective at destroying these cheese strategies.

I swear, banning baton pass would be like banning zerg rushes, or something.
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No offence but it's clear that you haven't been following the Baton Pass debate at all over the past few months. If you had, you would know that pretty much every counter you mentioned either doesn't work, isn't reasonable to fit on a standard team or can easily be played around.

Unaware doesn't work because it doesn't block the rising BP of Stored Power.
Your point about using Roar and a Dark move implies that there are viable Pokémon that use both of these things on the same moveset, which really there aren't (and they can just be shut down by Spore anyway).
Toxic Spikes can be bounced back and absorbed by Scolipede.
Who runs Perish Song and Taunt on the same moveset?
Red Card doesn't work when the Pokémon holding it is OHKO'd.

Watch some of Denissss's replays. This guy has been at the top of the ladder for months on end using the same Baton Pass team and you're seriously trying to argue that his playstyle is a gimmick and that everyone's just too dumb to beat it. It's kinda embarrassing.

Also read the first post, as it's stated quite clearly that the move Baton Pass itself isn't what's being banned here.
 
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If you're going to say that Baton Pass shouldn't be banned or nerfed, make a good case for that position rather than whining about it and saying "this is just a formality." The council hasn't decided on what should happen to Baton Pass, if that was the case they would have done something themselves rather than holding a suspect test. If your going to post be specific with your examples rather than saying there are or aren't ways to beat it and not mentioning any of them because that isn't helping the discussion at all. The final decision isn't even in the council's hands at this point its the community, if you really feel strongly about this sway the community's opinion and qualify vote.

Disagreeing and saying that Baton Pass won't get you or anyone banned. If you can't post intelligently or in a civil manner you will be banned under the zero tolerance rule.

I don't want to have to make more posts like this, so just follow the rules and be civil, otherwise I will ban or infract you.

----------------

To those saying that Unaware users stop Baton Pass cold, you're wrong. Unaware ignores the stat boosts of the stored power user, but not stored power's boosted Base Power. Meaning that you can still run through the chain, get the boosts you need and still OHKO Quagsire since Stored Power's Base Power is still absurdly high.

0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 268-316 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's Espeon with +2 in three stats. This isn't a stop to it at all.
 
anubite said:
You don't need me to list for you all the moves and abilities that counter baton pass, do you? I won't be that insulting.

We had six pokemon with rapid spin for the longest time. Stealth Rock itself makes most bug/fire/ice pokemon utterly worthless. For a long time, the entire metagame revolved around sharp pebbles -- and I never saw any serious talk of banning it.

We've had baton pass for just as long, and well, I guess I will belabor the fact you can counter it:

http://www.serebii.net/abilitydex/unaware.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/abilitydex/prankster.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/taunt.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/leechseed.shtml -- not a direct counter, but obviously fucks with any baton pass team
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex/haze.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/clearsmog.shtml
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Punishment_(move)
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-xy/perishsong.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/whirlwind.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/roar.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/toxicspikes.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/abilitydex/infiltrator.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/psychup.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/taunt.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/snatch.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/destinybond.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex/seismictoss.shtml -- great at damaging people with high defense boosts and low HP
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/entrainment.shtml -- nullifies abilities that attempt to block counters or provide boosts
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/worryseed.shtml
http://serebii.net/itemdex/redcard.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/powerswap.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/guardswap.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/powersplit.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/endeavor.shtml -- how many bp teams deal with level 1 aaron effectively? or focus sash + endeavor?
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/confuseray.shtml

Do try to say some of these things "don't count", but it doesn't matter, there's way more than "six" here, so I'd say baton pass is far less over centralizing than SR used to be (well, SR still is very over centralizing for OU, but defog helped a bit). This isn't even going into the number of pokemon that can, even with iron defense up, OHKO and threaten Scoliopede and anyone he might baton pass to. I mean, come on, even a +2 defense Mr. Mime is about as sturdy as paper to any solid Crunch of Knock Off, and he can't do any damage right away either.

And when you can admit that baton pass teams fall apart when they lose 1-2 of their pokemon, it's easy to see how victory can be obtained if all you need to do is corner two pokemon with a few of the above tricks. It is not hard to incorporate these moves into your team -- and you already should be using a lot of these already.
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All this is just theory, and shows lack of practical experience against Baton Pass teams (at least ones backed by decent players). Full Baton Pass chains have ways to deal with nearly everything you mentioned, and the ones which may work are unviable against any team that's not BP.

Edit: After taking the time to read your list, BP teams can in fact deal with every single thing you mentioned.
 
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quickscopenoscope said:
Priority Taunt -> Espeon
Perish Song -> Mr. Mime
Whirlwind -> Espeon
Unaware -> An Espeon that's already set up murders Quagsire and Clefable due to the mechanics.
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Espeon doesn't completely work against priority taunt because it's forced to lose the boost to come in, since the Taunt ousteepds the bp.

So it forces the chain to start over, which may be possible, but may also mean gg to the baton pass player.
 
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