Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Aragorn the King]

Aww... too bad about Venusaur-M. Anyway, here are my thoughts on A/A- Pokemon:

: A

: A

: A

: I think this should go A+. Its mixed bulk is incredible, and its speed is great for a supportive pokemon. Its red card set can reliable get 2+ hazards up, and it has a fast Taunt to discourage set up and Defog.

: I think this should go A+. It's very versatile, and yet has one role that it excels at, Dragon Dance Sweeper. It, in my opinion, is one of the best DDancers. Add on one of the best defensive abilities in the game, and you have a top A+ threat.

: A

: A

: A

/: I think both should go A+. They, along with Dragonite, are fantastic Dragon Dancers. It can reliable set up in base form with Intimidate, and can threaten Pokemon in its mega form reliant on their ability with Mold Breaker.

: I think this should go down to A-. Keldeo simply isn't great this generation. It only has 2 powerful moves, and while they are powerful, it gets walled by a lot of things. In addition to its 2 moves, it only gets Hidden Power and Icy Wind for coverage. It's powerful, but not that effective.

/

: I'm not sure. On the + side, they both can defog. Latias is more defensive and Latios is more offensive, but overall I think they have the same utility. They are easy Pursuit bait, but still are effective. I'm torn between A and A-, so I think I'll just say A. Especially with their Megas coming soon, I think discussion on them is important.

: A

: A

: It's a fearsome wallbreaker, but has two main flaws: Fire types and ground types. I'm torn between A and A+, but I think A suits it more.

/: A

: I think this should be A-. See Doughboy's post for reasoning.

: A
: Its bulky is massive, and its Dragon Dance Set is amazing. I think it should move to A+

: A-
: A-


EDIT: alexwolf when can we nominate Pokemon again? Will it be after we do this cycle until the D ranked Pokemon? There are two BL Pokemon, with analyses, that haven't been ranked.

 

[Red Cat]

And here are the results:

Thundurus: A+ ---> S
Venusaur (Mega): S ---> A+

Everything else has stayed were it was. Now let's discuss about A and A- rank Pokemon.

Thanks for completely disregarding my previous post :) Let the floodgates open!

Anyway, here is my previously deleted post about Deoxys-D:

I think Deoxys-D should be moved up to A+ rank. Unlike its faster counterpart which has trouble setting up hazards with all of the priority in OU, Deoxys-D can reliably set up both SR and Spikes. Unless you have a fast taunter or CB TTar, both of which are very uncommon, you are not going to stop Deoxys-D from getting its hazards up. Most defoggers can't do anything against Deoxys-D because of Taunt and its incredible bulk, which means you just have to hope you can find a turn to Defog after it is dead which is easier said than done against HO teams. It can also stay alive throughout the match with Recover if you don't just want to sac it at the beginning of the game. Deoxys-D is the best hazard setter in OU right now, even better than Deoxys-S. It also does not need much team support at all to do its job.

 

[doughboy]

Terrakion: A- or B+

Terrakion has really fallen from grace compared to what it was in gen 5. Nothing about it inherently has gotten worse, but the metagame around it has evolved so that it isn't as effective. The only mechanic that made it "worse" was the Hidden Power nerf from 70 to 60 base power, which makes it HP Ice a lot weaker for those all-out attacking sets. That isn't the biggest deal though.

First is that there is a high amount of priority in tier, and it is priority that can hit Terrakion hard. This is significant for Terrakion because it relies upon Close Combat to deal the majority of its damage (accurate+most powerful STAB) to wallbreak or sweep. Since Terrakion uses Close Combat often and gets defense drops, it is forced out much more easily by priority compared to other offensive Pokemon. This is why SD Terrakion is nowhere to be seen.

Second, Aegislash and Landorus-T are everywhere. Both are good and realistic options that offensive teams use as pivots, and Terrakion has a lot of trouble with both of them. A mispredicted Stone Edge or Close Combat vs Earthquake can be an heavily punished by Aegislash. In Landorus-T's case, Terrakion provides a good opportunity to gain momentum with U-turn or get down SR. Fairy-types, primarily Azumarill, make it a bit more difficult for Terrakion to throw out Close Combat compared to the past. Outside of Azumarill, it is a pretty small problem.

Terrakion's explosive power and great speed still make it a good offensive Pokemon that can cause teams some trouble. Also it makes a good offensive SR setter and a good lure for Aegislash with Life Orb Earthquake. So a spot at A- or B+ describes it as a good Pokemon, but not quite there.

There are other pokes but this is the most obvious change to me.

edit: oh yeah deo-d to A+ for sure

 

[Chou Toshio]

I will also back Dragonite for A+. I think that Dragonite is arguably as effective if not more effective than threats like Kyurem-B or Garchomp. Weakness Policy and other Dragon Dance sets are dangerous, but the real yolk of this fried Egg is that the metagame is laughably weak to CB Extreme Speed.

Like, seriously-- just make an offensive team with CB Dragonite and try it out for yourself. Teams all rely on their precious priority attackers and frail Pokes like Talonflame, Thundurus, and Greninja; and CB Dragonite can overcome things like Pinsir and Charizard with E-Speed too. With Genesect gone, Dragonite's late game CB sweep is even harder to handle. It's the meta's best answer to "checking" all these ridiculous offensive threats that all are used to having the first move-- not while Dragonite's on duty.

Plus CB Outrage is so f'ing devastating to this meta-- when NO one expects to be having to deal with continuous outrage spamming. Seriously, almost all teams are unprepared for it; and it's the most valuable member on ever team I've used it on-- and I've used in on both STALL and Hyper Offense! lol

Watching it 2HKO all these Hippowdon, Gliscor, and Lando-T foolishly not investing in max defense is a riot. Nite smashes everything!

And then they breath a sigh of relief after breaking its multiscale and forcing it out-- only to realize in the late game-- holy FUCK it's Extreme Speed hits THAT hard??? I got NOTHING to stop it!!!

The only thing that rains on CB Dnite's E-Speed Parade is... an enemy DD Dragonite with Extreme Speed... gdamn it

 

[Lcs865]

Said this just before the S/A+ rank discussion lock so it got a bit overshadowed, but I'll restart the convorsation

Here goes nothing

Bisharp for A+/S Rank
With the massive shift in the metagame, Bisharp did nothing but gain. It's premier counter, Mega-Lucario, was banned, and Genesect, a check, was as well. Now, not much is stopping Bisharp from tearing through the entire tier.

 

[BenTheDemon]

Aww... too bad about Venusaur-M. Anyway, here are my thoughts on A/A- Pokemon:

: A

: A

: A

: I think this should go A+. Its mixed bulk is incredible, and its speed is great for a supportive pokemon. Its red card set can reliable get 2+ hazards up, and it has a fast Taunt to discourage set up and Defog.

: I think this should go A+. It's very versatile, and yet has one role that it excels at, Dragon Dance Sweeper. It, in my opinion, is one of the best DDancers. Add on one of the best defensive abilities in the game, and you have a top A+ threat.

: A

: A

: A

/: I think both should go A+. They, along with Dragonite, are fantastic Dragon Dancers. It can reliable set up in base form with Intimidate, and can threaten Pokemon in its mega form reliant on their ability with Mold Breaker.

: I think this should go down to A-. Keldeo simply isn't great this generation. It only has 2 powerful moves, and while they are powerful, it gets walled by a lot of things. In addition to its 2 moves, it only gets Hidden Power and Icy Wind for coverage. It's powerful, but not that effective.

/

: I'm not sure. On the + side, they both can defog. Latias is more defensive and Latios is more offensive, but overall I think they have the same utility. They are easy Pursuit bait, but still are effective. I'm torn between A and A-, so I think I'll just say A. Especially with their Megas coming soon, I think discussion on them is important.

: A

: A

: It's a fearsome wallbreaker, but has two main flaws: Fire types and ground types. I'm torn between A and A+, but I think A suits it more.

/: A

: I think this should be A-. See Doughboy's post for reasoning.

: A
: Its bulky is massive, and its Dragon Dance Set is amazing. I think it should move to A+

: A-
: A-

EDIT: alexwolf when can we nominate Pokemon again? Will it be after we do this cycle until the D ranked Pokemon? There are two BL Pokemon, with analyses, that haven't been ranked.

I agree 90%.

Both Gyarados are perfect in A. That's the only promotion I think that wouldn't be deserved.
Conkeldurr should move up to A+ because that thing is THE Bulky Attacker. Even Air Slash from a Max Special Attack Mega Charizard Y is a 2HKO, and Conkeldurr can run Stone Edge if it so chooses. The pseudo-instant recovery in Drain Punch is just the icing on the cake. Hell, I think it would be fine in S rank, but A+ seems better to me.

Mega Mawile should move up to A+ because it, like Dragonite is almost guaranteed a turn of Setup and unless you have something really bulky or can whittle it down with Burn damage (or my unorthodox Sash-Counter Gengar), it's going to be doing a lot of damage with those Sucker Punches. Also almost S worthy, but A+ makes more sense.

Terrakion should be moved down to B or lower. Out of over 200 battles, I've LITERALLY never seen in in XY OU. Plus it's just easy fodder for Dragonite, Conkeldurr, Scizor, Alakazam, Azumarill, and many, many others.

Also, to reiterate what I said earlier:

One Pokemon that does deserve a promotion is Dragonite. I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but it's clearly on par with Garchomp and Kyurem-B (both A+).
With Multiscale, you are almost guaranteed at least one Dragon Dance. And with Weakness Policy, getting +3 Attack and +1 Speed is extremely common. I have swept many teams with this set (1500+ ranks), and if you want me to start recording replays, I can do that.

In fact, the only things that are effective at holding Dragonite back from a sweep are: 1. Stealth Rock 2. Clefable 3. Kyurem-B if it's out before a Dragon Dance
And all of those can be Easily dealt with using just one partner: Excadrill.
Excadrill's Iron Head Annihilates Clefable and Kyurem-B. It also has Rapid Spin to spin away Rocks. And even then, Rocks aren't as common as they were in Gen 5, and with Defog being everywhere, Rocks are easier than ever to remove.

Also, as for Kyurem-B, if it doesn't hit Dragonite before a Dragon Dance or isn't holding a Scarf on the switch, it can kiss its icy ass goodbye.

And this is slightly off topic, but Chansey and Blissey should be in the same rank regardless of what that rank is, because even though Chansey has better Physical defense, it's prone to the now common Knock Off. Blissey doesn't mind Knock Off as much.
I believe that is enough to put them equal.

 

[alexwolf]

EDIT: alexwolf when can we nominate Pokemon again? Will it be after we do this cycle until the D ranked Pokemon? There are two BL Pokemon, with analyses, that haven't been ranked.

You can nominate unranked Pokemon whenever you want, as long as the rank for which you want to nominate them for is the one we are discussing currently each time.

 

[Aragorn the King]

I agree 90%.

Both Gyarados are perfect in A. That's the only promotion I think that wouldn't be deserved.
Conkeldurr should move up to A+ because that thing is THE Bulky Attacker. Even Air Slash from a Max Special Attack is a 2HKO, and Conkeldurr can run Stone Edge if it so chooses. The pseudo-instant recovery in Drain Punch is just the icing on the cake. Hell, I think it would be fine in S rank, but A+ seems better to me.

Mega Mawile should move up to A+ because it, like Dragonite is almost guaranteed a turn of Setup and unless you have something really bulky or can whittle it down with Burn damage (or my unorthodox Sash-Counter Gengar), it's going to be doing a lot of damage with those Sucker Punches. Also almost S worthy, but A+ makes more sense.

Terrakion should be moved down to B or lower. Out of over 200 battles, I've LITERALLY never seen in in XY OU. Plus it's just easy fodder for Dragonite, Conkeldurr, Scizor, Alakazam, Azumarill, and many, many others.

• Air Slash from...? I assume you mean Togekiss.
• I think Gyarados could go up, but maybe not.
• Conkeldurr I'd agree with you on, if Talonflame and Pinsir weren't so popular. They wreck Conk, and imo leave him in A rank, which is still good.
• I'm on the fence about Mawile. As you can tell from my signature, I love it, but its "distaste" for Fire moves à la Charizard and ground moves à la everything make me hesitant. However, the Sub/Punch set is a monster, and may allow it to be A+.
• I think you're too tough on Terrak. Usage isn't enough to say something is bad (and plus, it's in the 50's in usage, so it's weird that you haven't seen it once. The scarf set is a monster (it certainly isn't fodder for Alakazam or multiscale-broken Dragonite). The banded set also hits like a truck (while sacrificing speed). Terrakion has hard hitting STAB, Earthquake, and (weak) priority, so I think A- is right.

You can nominate unranked Pokemon whenever you want, as long as the rank for which you want to nominate them for is the one we are discussing currently each time.

Okay, sounds good. Thanks!

 

[doughboy]

The only thing that rains on CB Dnite's E-Speed Parade is... an enemy DD Dragonite with Extreme Speed... gdamn it

Sorry to rain on your parade Chou Toshio but I HO does have some good options for dealing with Dragonite Extreme Speed spam. Aegislash is #1 on this list because it is annoying as hell when you want to revenge kill with Extreme Speed having to face the possibility of giving it a free switch-in. Next we have Gengar, which is still a pretty good choice on HO teams because of its high speed, good power behind Life Orb, great STAB's, and overall unpredictability. Scarf Tyranitar and Scarf Heatran also are good options. Both deal with priority based Pokemon pretty well (BIRRDSSS) and are for some offensive teams are the only options to switch in on big threats: ex. Charizard -Y and Latios. You can still find at least one offensive Steel-type on HO teams that can prevent Extreme Speed from steam rolling. The type of teams you described in your post would seem to have a similar difficulty with Talonflame, it isn't exclusive to Dnite. I can't deny that powerful Extreme Speed has been very good.

Also Outrage can be hard to use against HO teams if they pack an Aegislash, Azumarill, or Mawile. It is annoying when your main STAB not only has an immunity, but locks you in as well. A key for a CB user is to have a strong reliable STAB and Dragonite as a CB user fails here. It has the raw power, but it can risky to release. Multiscale kinda of relieves but not enough IMO. I've consider putting Dragon Claw over Fire Punch and just have something else remove Skarmory and Scizor, but it is so hard to let go :(

I see it tettering on A+, my opinion changed on it from before, but I still see it more fitting in A.

edit: forgot to say this finncent1 keldeo is one of the only fighting types that can immediately 2HKO Aegislash safely with +1 hydro pump, which makes it a good against teams that rely on aegislash for fighting types. keldeo+aegislash core = delicious

 

[LightningLuxray]

Terrak shouldn't fall any lower than B+ right now. It's Choice Scarf set is a lot more powerful than you may think, and Terrak doesn't have all that hard of a time cleaning late game once all it's counters are removed. It's dual STABS are also great, and with Earthquake for Pokemon like Aegislash, you can actually hit those threats that normally wall you. I personally feel it should be A-, but if people feel it needs to go lower, then don't let it go past A-.

Also, I second all post recommending Deo-D, Dragonite, and Mega Tyranitar for A+. I think Conkeldurr, Mega Mawile, and (Mega) Gyara (all Pokemon I frequently use) should stay A rank, however.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Yeah, obviously it's not invincible-- and my post definitely over-dramatized it (for which I would like to apologize). However, Dragonite is undoubtedly very useful.

To be fair though, Fairies are not that a big problem for Outrage Spam in terms of reliability. The only time Outrage keeps you locked in against a fairy is when it's already started-- meaning you've likely already killed something with it, and they're just bringing their fairy in after-the-fact. Otherwise, if they switch a fairy directly into it, you can switch out-- so it's no different from Dragon Claw on that front.

You just have to be clever with the timing of outrage-- but from my experience, waning on the side of "reckless" pays off a lot with Dragonite.

 

[Salt]

This post will be brief because I'm on mobile. I'll probably elaborate when I have access to a computer in the morning.

First off, gonna simply throw out support for moving Dragonite and Deoxys-D to A+, and moving Terrakion down to A-. I would put my own spin on it, but I can't right now. So just sayin I support these ranks.

Bisharp should be moved to A+. It's extemely anti-meta, being the best Defog "blocker" around thanks to Defiant. It also gained massively from the Dark buff, making its STABs have excellent coverage, and they're some of the best moves available. It has priority in Sucker Punch, an extremely powerful Knock Off, Pursuit to trap Ghosts and other Dark-weak mons like Lati@s, and STAB Iron Head to eliminate Dark resists, particularly Faries. Bisharp only improved with the generation shift, and the improvments are so numerous and significant that it deserves A+.

Conkeldurr should move down to A- or B+. Assault Vest and the Knock Off buff are cool for Conkeldurr but he does have some significant flaws. First off, his power is somewhat disappointing. Running Assault Vest means no boosting item, and when you combine that with the relatively low BP of its moves, Conkeldurr doesn't hit hard enough much of the time. For example, Conk's Mach Punch couldn't even OHKO Mega Lucario before it was banned. His abilities are also inconsistent; Guts won't activate every match, but using another ability takes away the ability to switch in to Rotom-W and Heatran. Finally, the metagame adapting for Mega Venusaur affects Conkeldurr as well. If anything, Conk hates those Flying/Psychic attacks even more than MegaSaur does. Conk just doesn't quite make A imo.

That's all for now. Will elaborate and reply to potential responses in the morning. This took forever to type -.-

 

[Giometry]

Now that 2 of its main offensive checks are gone here goes.
Nominating Greninja for A+
With genesect gone the role of a fast strong momentum grabber is up in the air with only four Pokemon who stand a chance at even slightly comparing to genesect, the genies and greninja.
Greninja is the best suited to the job however as it outspeeds the entire unboosted tier sans alakazam and the rare mega manectric, Greninja also has the ability to maintain this great speed tier whilst also running life orb for power (genesect needed scarf) making it actually stronger than genesect. Greninja also has protean which gives STAB to every attack it runs making things like HP Fire/Electric stronger than Genesects Flamethrower/Thunderbolt
Greninja also gets U-turn allowing it to get almost the same free momentum Genesect did. However Greninja is cursed with frailty and gets destroyed by talonflames Brave Bird, Conkeldurrs Mach Punch,Mega Pinsirs Quick Attack, and Dragonites E-Speed.
This sounds worse than it is however as D-nite should only stay in if at full health, Pinsir needs to have greninja weakened first, and Genesect actually had more issues with the flaming falcon. Overall Greninja feels almost like a less broken Genesect

Dragonite for A+
Big friendly dragon was borderline A+ Before but I think that the banning of Genesect pushes it over the edge as it no longer has to worry about lightning fast powerful ice beams coming at it. It is strong, bulky, and extremely versatile and now it has one less major issue to worry about.

Bringing this back up alongside Gyarados for A+ we all know what mega does but honestly the bulky dd set is probably his best as teams just aren't prepared for it ( I run eq and stone edge alongside waterfall) and for me whenever it got to set up it usually won the match or took out 3-4 mons. Gyarados has ludicrous amounts of setup opportunities due to intimidate and good bulk as well as being able to run a good fast dd moxie set. Phaser and resttank are just the icing on the cake. This thing gets almost as easy a setup as dragonite.

 

[sidakarya]

To be fair though, Fairies are not that a big problem for Outrage Spam in terms of reliability. The only time Outrage keeps you locked in against a fairy is when it's already started-- meaning you've likely already killed something with it, and they're just bringing their fairy in after-the-fact. Otherwise, if they switch a fairy directly into it, you can switch out-- so it's no different from Dragon Claw on that front.

You just have to be clever with the timing of outrage-- but from my experience, waning on the side of "reckless" pays off a lot with Dragonite.

Choice-locked Outrage is actually worse than you make it as, especially as a primary STAB. It means, you've given up your free turn to a team with Aegislash or a fairy, whereas with, say DDance, you still have the chance to answer accordingly. If you kill something with it, you're locked in, and this is the big reason, that you can't spam Outrage recklessly against any team, especially if you're choiced. You'll just end up having unleashed a +4 M-Mawile or a +6 Azumarill, and yes, sacking something to ensure the set-up is completely doable.

Aegislash is an even bigger problem, as you don't get freed from the lock, then it uses King's Shield, and probably breaks your Multiscale too.

This is one reason, that Scarf Moxiemence has fallen out of favour. Its main method of killing things is extremely explotable. Garchomp is an exception to this rule, but keep in mind, it has more than one STAB with useful coverage between both, and plenty of coverage to handle resists (Fire Blast, Stone Edge)

 

[sidakarya]

We're only talking about A and A- at the moment, just saying.

 

[Sweep]

Sorry about that, I can't read.

Anyway, I agree with Conkeldurr being dropped a little, perhaps to A-. Its power is fairly disappointing and though Knock Off can punish switches, it cannot do anything to its (fairly common) checks besides that. It's still a really good Pokemon but A is stretching it IMO.

 

[sidakarya]

On another note, I'll definitely agree, that Deoxys-D should move to A+. It's a more reliable and even better hazard-setter than Deoxys-S, because of its bulk. Honestly it almost appears to reach up to S for me, there is so little opportunity for counterplay. Taunters don't help because of Magic Coat, and Red Card Deo-D forces Excadrill and most things just trying to outright kill it out.

Conkeldurr does seems more A- these days. Besides Pinsir and Talonflame being ever-popular, the metagame adapting to Venusaur means, it adapts too to Conkeldurr. For example, it can no longer reliably check Greninja because of Extrasensory.

 

[114]

Conk to A- for sure. It can't wall all too well, and doesn't hit hard enough most of the time either. It's not good for much.

Greninja to A- too because it's rather one dimensional and not very effective. I suppose spikes is cool.. but moreso in theory methinks

Terrakion to B+ because the meta its in sucks for it.

Deo-D to A+ for reasons said

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I dunno, this may just be me but I think Greninja is fine where it is, if not be able to be moved up a little. Its Speed is pretty awesome, and with its access to STAB on everything along with its good power and movepool make it pretty solid, and it can pose a pretty strong threat to offense; Hydro Pump and Ice Beam are most definitely non negotiable, and with other cool moves like Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, and Hidden Power Fire, Greninja has some way to hit certain Pokemon pretty hard. It also has U-turn to gain momentum, and with its great speed it shouldn't have trouble doing so. Its great coverage is awesome imo, and with a Life Orb set it can do quite a bit of damage. Spikes is also a fun option; Greninja can support its team and also gamble with Rotom-W and halt Volt Switch. Toxic Spikes is also viable. It's pretty frail, but its combination of Speed, coverage, and power make it quite good.

I dunno really, I may be biased since I do really well with fast mons, but I personally don't think Greninja should be moved down, it's always been quite solid for me for those reasons.

I'd also second Bisharp and Deoxys-D for A+, it's been explained well before.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

Venusaur's sprite is in A instead of A+. EDIT: That was fixed.

And ok, now that we're on the topic of A ranks, as I've said, Dragonite deserves to be in A+ with Kyurem-B and Garchomp. With the combination of Multiscale, Weakness Policy, immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock being much easier to deal with, getting Dragonite to +3 Attack and +1 Speed is extremely easy, and is arguably the best setup sweeper in OU.

Here's a replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-90108890

Notice how he turned a very bad situation into a a late-game sweep.

Looked more like excadrill did the hard work. And your opponent made a big mistake by taking out tartar.

 

[alexwolf]

Changes that should happen:

Terrakion: A ---> A-
Deoxys-D: A ---> A+
Conkeldurr: A ---> A-
Tyranitar (Mega): A ---> A+
Gyarados: A ---> A-

The DoughBoy explained very well why Terrakion is not A rank so no need for me to say a lot. However, B+ is too low, as a well played Terrakion is still impossible to wall and can wear down basically any team for other sweepers, while also checking many dangerous Pokemon, such as Mega Mawile, BU Talonfalme (with a bulky spread, which is perfectly viable), Kyurem-B, Mega Char Y, Mega Pinsir, and Bisharp. It is also a great SR setter, having the offensive presence to scare away most Defog and Rapid Spin users, and it even has Taunt for the few Defog users it can't 2HKO (Mega Scizor and Skarmory).

Deoxys-D has been talked to death so no need for much talk here too. The face of HO, which is a great playstyle right now, sets up hazards incredibly easy and reliably, which are very easy to keep up with those teams, and on top of it, often paralyzes something with Thunder Wave or wears down with hazards the opposing team a bit if it has Red Card, supporting its team even more. And all those while being almost impossible to set up on. Solid A+ material.

AV Conkeldurr is not A rank anymore for the same reason that Mega Venusaur is not S rank, the metagame adapted to play against it. Mega Mawile, Mega Venusaur, Clefable, Roost Mega Charizard Y, Roost Talonflame, Azumarill, and Mega Scizor are just some of the best Pokemon that can check it very well, if not completely shut it down, with only Knock Off's side effect being an annoyance for some of those Pokemon. Flying and Psychic attacks have become much more common too, and many of the Pokemon that AV Conk could check before now usually 2HKO it, such as Greninja and Thundurus. It's still good, but not great, so A- is where it should be.

I have argued again about Mega Tyranitar for A+, so read the past pages if you are interested.

Finally, regular Gyarados is quite obviously not A rank but it got away with it for so long just because of the good reputation of its big brother Mega Gyarados. Waterfall + Bounce is still great coverage, but without Mold Breaker Earthquake Rotom-W becomes problematic, and you can't troll it anymore with Sub, as Rotom-W can easily bring in Talonflame after it breaks the Sub with Volt Switch, which can OHKO Gyarados. Aegislash fucks you up too, especially with both oh Gyarados's moves making contact. Furthermore, rain is not as easy to provide as in 5th gen, so Gyarados is really not that strong even after a DD, and thus not that hard to check. A- is way better for it, maybe even B+, but let's go with A- for now.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Blah blah words and GO DRAGONITE GO

This is perhaps the best description of CB Dragonite I've ever seen.

On the Terrakion subject, I honestly think that I could see it dropping to A- Rank, but no lower. If anything, I think the recent bans have actually worked in Terrakion's favor. Mega Lucario and Genesect (Scarf Iron Head variants, at least) were two of Terrakion's most popular checks, with Mega Lucario also being some of its main competition in the "Fast Physical Fighting-type" department. Even now, Terrakion is still a huge offensive threat that few things really want to switch into. Even pivot Landorus-T can only switch into the Choice Band set once since, if it gets hit by Stone Edge the first time, it'll be 2HKOed the next time it comes in. The fact that Landorus-T is often used as a switch in to other physical threats besides just Terrakion and may get damage along the way also works in Terrakion's favor (at ~50% health, even a CB Close Combat 2HKOs after Stealth Rock). Aegislash can take on either of Terrakion's STABs, but one wrong switch into Earthquake and it's over. Its CB Close Combat is also still insane. With Stealth Rock down, 252/0 Azumarill can only switch into it once and force Terrakion out, but the next time, it will be KOed. A few other Fairy-types can take the Close Combat, but all of them are destroyed by Stone Edge, so none of them are truly safe.

In fact, the Life Orb set really needs to be highlighted since, in my opinion, it's arguably Terrakion's best set right now. So many things that rely on predicting the right move fall flat when faced with the ability for Terrakion to switch moves. Pivot Landorus-T has a solid chance of being KOed by switching into Stone Edge with Stealth Rock down, followed by HP Ice the next turn. Similarly, if 252/0 Aegislash switches into Stone Edge with Stealth Rock down, then it has a small chance of being KOed by Earthquake the next turn, while Aegislash without HP investment will always fall to this combination. Needless to say, this makes Terrakion much harder to handle when you can't just rely on guessing the right STAB or coverage move and forcing it out.

It's true that Terrakion is hit hard by priority, and this does put a lot of pressure on sweeping sets, but that's about it. That's why I emphasize Terrakion's wallbreaking/all-out attacking sets. Most dangerous priority users would really rather not switch into these sets for fear of either of Terrakion's STABs, which means that they generally have to wait until something else has died before switching in, which is perfectly fine for a wallbreaker whose main goal is to kill stuff.

Terrakion also makes a surprisingly good check to so many of the top offensive threats in the metagame. It's capable of checking currently the two most powerful offensive Mega Pokemon. It can outspeed Mega Pinsir and Mega Charizard Y and KO with Stone Edge (it can take Mega Pinsir's +2 Quick Attack with a little health to spare), and it can at least offer enough offensive pressure to keep Mega Charizard X from getting free boosts, while Scarf sets can revenge kill those that already have a Dragon Dance. Wallbreaking sets (Life Orb and Choice Band) can also check Pokemon such as Garchomp, Heatran, Kyurem-B, Excadrill, Goodra, Tyranitar, Mega Mawile, Bisharp, Bullet Punch-less Lucario, and a whole mess of others (including several defensive Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Togekiss), while the Scarf set still makes a great check to things like DD Mega Charizard X, QD Volcarona, DD Gyarados (both forms), DD Mega Tyranitar, DD Dragonite, DD and Scarf Salamence, Thundurus (although Thunder Wave will cripple Terrakion), Greninja, and Infernape. This makes Terrakion not only a dangerous offensive Pokemon in its own right, but also a valuable team player who is capable of threatening a large portion of the metagame and preventing clean sweeps. Let's also not forget the Stealth Rock sets, which can utilize Terrakion's natural strength to not only get up Stealth Rock on forced switches, but also to keep opposing Defog and Rapid Spin users from getting easy switch-ins.

All things considered, Terrakion is still a fantastic offensive threat in this metagame. The recent bans have only helped from what I've seen, so the lowest I could see it dropping is A- Rank.

EDIT: Darn it, alexwolf.

 

[epicdrill]

Aegislash is an even bigger problem, as you don't get freed from the lock, then it uses King's Shield, and probably breaks your Multiscale too.

Just a minor nitpick, but if Aegislash uses King's Shield Dragonite does get freed from Outrage due to Outrage's mechanics ending 3-turn Outrages if Protected against on the second turn.

 

[Srn]

Snip

I basically agree with everything here, although CB close combat deserves a little bit more mention here. But LO is still the best set around, great wallbreaker with few safe switch-ins. Solid A-

Azumarill is just so damn godly this generation, Azumarill for A+
(here goes)

There are a lot of effective sets it can run, ranging from Leftovers and Assault Vest to the mighty CB and Bellyjet behemoths.

Let's see. His water/fairy typing is outstanding, getting you resists to fighting and dark (and immunity to dragon!!!1!), while keeping resist to fire and ice, while only gaining a neutrality to steel and weakness to poison. Dark resist might not look like it matters at first, but this guy is pretty good at soaking up knock offs and foul plays.
This great typing with resistances to the common attacking moves lets him function as a great offensive pivot, and seriously, this guy has strong checks and stuff but if the opponent mispredicts a CB azumarill can punch gigantic holes. See that Rotom-W? Play Rough does an easy 60% See that Aegislash? Knock Off OHKO's See that Mawile over there? Waterfall 2HKO's, even at -1. That Ferrothorn? It dies to Superpower. There is literally no totally safe switch-in to the CB set outside of Mega Venusaur as long as you predict the right move.
What's best, about the CB set, I'd say, is that when you have pokemon like Rotom-W and Aegislash, it easily gives a player the illusion that you're covered against it. Thus, they build their team with a weak CB azu check and 5 other pokemon that can't handle it. Then, when they bring in aegislash expecting to eat a play rough, they just straight up die to a knock off, even the tank sets. Azumarill actually lures in aegislash like it's nobody's business, its fabulous.

Assault Vest functions a lot like CB, but instead you get a cool toy named PuP to play with. This turns you into something frightening if you get it off safely. AV Azu is still a pivot in my eyes, but its built more defensively rather than forcing opponents out. Other than that, it works a lot like CB. Same goes for leftovers, although leftovers greatly increases its general survivability. Also note that you can just go mystic water to feign the CB, just remember you're play rough is a lot weaker.

But oh god, the bellyjet sets. It's so incredibly threatening that it's practically the only reason Rotom-W even runs 44 speed evs. It's tough to get a boost, I admit, but if you do it's literally the scariest little thing. +6 aqua jets are nothing to mess around with and if you're slower, well, you're dead. Bellyjet sets are something that every team must prepare for and constant pressure needs to be applied to prevent a skilled player from getting a BD off. It's downright scary, possibly its most threatening (but least practical) set.

This isn't too valid, but its worth noting that a specially defensive azumarill with sap sipper is the only true counter to both charizard forms.
Pretty cool.

So let's see.
Amazing typing, offensively and defensively.
Superb ability.
Relatively threatening presence even without boosts.
Solid Bulk.
Reliable and Powerful STABs
Strong Priority.
No crippling case 4MSS.

That's a damn solid A+ in my eyes.

 

[LoDart210]

I remember when I nominated mega tyranitar for A+ and got shot down for not voting tyranitar up with it. Anyway, my opinion still stands

Mega tyranitar for A+ because that dragon dance set is very powerful AND not commonly used, making it a surprise threat everytime.

I also think conkeldurr should move down to A- rank. While assault vest is amazing, it's only really good against neutral hits. Otherwise conkeldurr struggles to keep himself alive. Also, relying on drain punch as a stab, while it is a great move, but its not very strong and conk can be overwhelmed.

Terrakion shouldn't go below A-. He can deal with a lot of top tier threats (ahem the zards and pinsir) with his scarf set making it a very useful revenge killer. Usage doesn't determine viability, for those saying they don't see it often. That doesn't matter.

Dragonite I absolutely agree with Chou and the others. CB dragonite is one of the best sets, requiring no set up and taking advantage of the turn multi scale is broken to do some damage. Weakness policy is a given, its good but it can be worked around. Point is, A+ it is.


Bisharp is amazing but I think it needs a drop to A-. It's really anti meta and dark is an amazing stab along with defiant. But no doubt about it, fire, fighting, ground weaknesses in a meta more than willing to provide makes those sucker punches suddenly not as awe worthy as one might expect.

Azumarill I'm on the fence with because the belly drum set is one tough cookie to crack for an unprepared team, otherwise the CB set is powerful but not extremely threatening. A is good for this guy.

Clefable is a Pokemon I think deserves the full A rank. It's so bulky finding out which defense its invested into to hit from the other side is a chore. And by then its got a few cosmic guards up. With two fantastic abilities in magic guard and unaware, clefable is a great wall with more than enough offensive presence and utility.