Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[rachet67]

One thing that I'm surprised is not on the list and has not even been nominated yet is Victini. It has solid defenses and a decent defensive typing that allow it to switch into an occasional attack (such as Mega Zard-Y's sun-boosted Fire Blast), a brutal movepool that includes the coveted V-Create and Bolt Strike, and nearly unparalleled immediate power with a Choice Band. For these reasons, I think it's B Rank.

I agree that Victini is a absolute terror once in the sun, but thats easier said than done seeing that Charzard-Y and Victini share nearly identical counters and checks (even have the same speed benchmark) and because sun only lasts 5 turns, its very difficult to get a safe transition. Though placing it in B rank seems to take this into account. If you want to pass the torch of a sacrificed Charzard-Y to something that can outspeed whatever it is that KO'd Charzard, Scarf Darmatian seems to be the best choice.

Edit: I misread your post (its like 2:30, I need to go to bed) and thought you were suggesting to use it in conjuncture with Charzard-Y

 

[perplexingpool]

I agree that Victini is a absolute terror once in the sun, but thats easier said than done seeing that Charzard-Y and Victini share nearly identical counters and checks (even have the same speed benchmark) and because sun only lasts 5 turns, its very difficult to get a safe transition. Though placing it in B rank seems to take this into account. If you want to pass the torch of a sacrificed Charzard-Y to something that can outspeed whatever it is that KO'd Charzard, Scarf Darmatian seems to be the best choice.

Victini doesnt need sun up to be a threat; Stab V-Create off a solid base 100 Atk stat hits like a truck.

 

[rachet67]

Victini doesnt need sun up to be a threat; Stab V-Create off a solid base 100 Atk stat hits like a truck.

Though Darmanitan hits harder with Flare Blitz, with less of a drawback

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 364-430 (90 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 402-474 (99.5 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 348-411 (86.1 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Admittedly, Darmanitan has a slightly lower speed, but there really isn't a whole lot of mons occupying the 95-100 Speed tier anyways. Its frailer than Victini, but V-create lowers Victini's defenses. I guess Victini does have the advantage of being able to switch into at least some attacks. B or B- rank seems fine to me.

 

[SJCrew]

Actually, if you look at the list of base 100 speed Pokemon, a full-health Victini can check some major threats sitting in that tier, ranging from Manaphy to Charizard-Y, Mega Medicham, and Mega Gardevoir. It can also tie Staraptor and Zapdos, which are rising in popularity, and both switch into Entei's Sacred Fire and shrug off the subsequent Extremespeed (unlike Darmanitan). Victini not only speed ties with these Pokemon, but in the event that it loses, it has defenses to survive a hit from any of those Pokemon, barring Staraptor with CB.

Darmanitan is checked by all of those Pokemon, and wouldn't be able to survive their hits even with the same speed.

 

[Punchshroom]

Actually, if you look at the list of base 100 speed Pokemon, a full-health Victini can check some major threats sitting in that tier, ranging from Manaphy to Charizard-Y, Mega Medicham, and Mega Gardevoir. It can also tie Staraptor and Zapdos, which are rising in popularity, and both switch into Entei's Sacred Fire and shrug off the subsequent Extremespeed (unlike Darmanitan). Victini not only speed ties with these Pokemon, but in the event that it loses, it has defenses to survive a hit from any of those Pokemon, barring Staraptor with CB.

Darmanitan is checked by all of those Pokemon, and wouldn't be able to survive their hits even with the same speed.

I wasn't aware of any Zapdos that runs max Speed, considering the presence of Thundurus, unless max HP + max Speed Timid Zapdos is an uncommon set I overlooked.

 

[Rotosect]

Though Darmanitan hits harder with Flare Blitz, with less of a drawback

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 364-430 (90 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 402-474 (99.5 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 348-411 (86.1 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Admittedly, Darmanitan has a slightly lower speed, but there really isn't a whole lot of mons occupying the 95-100 Speed tier anyways. Its frailer than Victini, but V-create lowers Victini's defenses. I guess Victini does have the advantage of being able to switch into at least some attacks. B or B- rank seems fine to me.

What? 100 is by far the most crowded speed tier in the game. Those extra 5 speed points are a huge advantage over Darmanitan.

 

[Baharoth]

Take a look at all the pokemon in A+ rank. None of those pokemon are set up bait what so ever for a good majority of the meta. A- is perfectly fitting

Thats an interesting point id like to pick up. None of the pokemon in A+ and S are set up bait because they are offensive pokemon/sweepers with the only exception of Mega Venu. For a while now i have been under the impression that defensive mons are considered to be less viable in general compared to offensive mons. Mega Venu is the best mixed wall in the game and was demoted to A+, Hippowdon and Chansey are also extremly strong mixed walls and had to dwell in a pathetic B+ ranking for quite a while now.

Seeing it from the perspektive that the best pokemon in their respective aspect (ofc given that its a highly viable aspect) Venu should be S and Hippowdon and Chansey would deserve A+. Its mainly because offensive mons are overrated here while defensive mons are underrated in comparison. Pretty much every lightly specialy oriented wall/tank stops Thundurus-I dead in its tracks, yet its S, while against Chansey ur using the argument that some things can set up on it.

 

[Kay [Old]]

Pretty much every lightly specialy oriented wall/tank stops Thundurus-I dead in its tracks, yet its S, while against Chansey ur using the argument that some things can set up on it.

What the heck are you talking about? Chansey struggles to handle Thundurus, much less lighter special walls. It can't kill Thundurus fast enough - Thundurus will just NP twice, and start slamming it with TBolt. Chansey will win barring parahax or crits, but it'll still be at something like less than 20% health, which is even more problematic on a mon with no passive recovery.

 

[SJCrew]

Knock Off into Superpower KOs after rocks with Life Orb and no Attack EVs. GG Chansey.

 

[Baharoth]

What the heck are you talking about? Chansey struggles to handle Thundurus, much less lighter special walls. It can't kill Thundurus fast enough - Thundurus will just NP twice, and start slamming it with TBolt. Chansey will win barring parahax or crits, but it'll still be at something like less than 20% health, which is even more problematic on a mon with no passive recovery.

Well got to admit, Chansey can get into trouble against the NP Set because she doesnt do much damage. I had stuff with more offensive presence in mind when i wrote that. Hippowdon, Mega Venu (against variants without psychic) and AV users like Goodra and Conk. Still was probably not the best example.

 

[RufflesPro]

While Hippo and Chansey are great and all, I definitely do not see them A+. Speaking of which, supporting Ferrothorn to A-

Also supporting Victini to B rank, as the scarf set makes Victini one of the best revenge killers and can spam V-Create twice, while CB set makes Victini one of the best wallbreakers ever.

Sub-3 attack is also amazing, and I'd argue that special set is very usable due to the lack of very powerful special attackers, especially when you can use Thunder and Focus Blast w/ 77% accuracy instead of 70%.

Victini is very versatile, I've even seen him in TR spamming V-Create.

It also has good bulk to survive a hit unlike darmanitan, better speed, and generally better coverage.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Thats an interesting point id like to pick up. None of the pokemon in A+ and S are set up bait because they are offensive pokemon/sweepers with the only exception of Mega Venu. For a while now i have been under the impression that defensive mons are considered to be less viable in general compared to offensive mons. Mega Venu is the best mixed wall in the game and was demoted to A+, Hippowdon and Chansey are also extremly strong mixed walls and had to dwell in a pathetic B+ ranking for quite a while now.

Seeing it from the perspektive that the best pokemon in their respective aspect (ofc given that its a highly viable aspect) Venu should be S and Hippowdon and Chansey would deserve A+. Its mainly because offensive mons are overrated here while defensive mons are underrated in comparison. Pretty much every lightly specialy oriented wall/tank stops Thundurus-I dead in its tracks, yet its S, while against Chansey ur using the argument that some things can set up on it.

Imo it's mostly because:

-Just going by the ranking definitions: it's really easy to sweep through a "significant portion of the metagame." It's very hard to wall a significant portion of the metagame. There's just too much crazy powerful offensive threats.

-Hyper Offensive is easy to use. Deosharp teams are letting complete shitters get above 1800 rating. On the other hand, defensive teams have a much higher skill ceiling. Deosharp is literally the name of the game on the upper ladder but in SPL there's a good amount of balanced, defensive and even full stall teams. It's really easy to throw together Deo-D+Bisharp+Aegishlash+3 sweepers and be able to tear through everything, it's much harder to make a defensive team that can counter or check all the insane offensive threats.

-Gamefreak likes offense. This gen, defensive teams got were pretty much Mega Venusaur, Mega Scizor, Chesnaught, Sylveon, Gourgeist, and that's about it, unless you count Mega Aggron and Avalugg who are way too flawed to be used on most serious defensive teams. Meanwhile, we got Mega Kangaskhan whose absurd power eclipsed that of gen 4 Garchomp, Mega Lucario and Mega Gengar who were also absolutely insane, Mega Zards, Mega Pinsir, Aegislash, Mega T-Tar, Mega Mawile, and a bunch of other threats that defensive teams can struggle to handle without niche stuff.
Offensive threats are just outpacing defensive threats, is all.

So that's probably why defensive mons are being "underrated." You just can't wall a significant portion of the metagame, but it's not hard to sweep it. HO teams are just easier to use. And if you'll notice, every S-rank threat right now is a stupid powerful thing Gamefreak gave us this gen, with the exception of Thundurus.

 

[rachet67]

What? 100 is by far the most crowded speed tier in the game. Those extra 5 speed points are a huge advantage over Darmanitan.

I more meant in-between 95-100 Spe. 100 is the most crowded speed tier, but Victini is also base 100 spe so it does take the risk of being speed tied with other base 100 Spe. There's not a whole lot of common OU pokes with 95-99 base speed (besides a few notable ones like Kyruem-B). Because both are wall breakers, all they really need is adaquate speed to outrun a lot of the metagame and hit ridiculously hard.

Personally, I think that the reason you would want to use victini over darmanitan is more because of its much better bulk, and access to volt-strike. On the other hand darmanitan hits much harder with its other moves due to its insane Attack, and has the liberty to run life orb and switch moves. It also has access to superpower to get past Tyranitar. Finally Darmanitan has the advantage of not lowering its speed (as well as SpD and Def) after using its stab, allowing it to get 2HKO's easier.

 

[114]

Actually, if you look at the list of base 100 speed Pokemon, a full-health Victini can check some major threats sitting in that tier, ranging from Manaphy to Charizard-Y, Mega Medicham, and Mega Gardevoir. It can also tie Staraptor and Zapdos, which are rising in popularity, and both switch into Entei's Sacred Fire and shrug off the subsequent Extremespeed (unlike Darmanitan). Victini not only speed ties with these Pokemon, but in the event that it loses, it has defenses to survive a hit from any of those Pokemon, barring Staraptor with CB.

Darmanitan is checked by all of those Pokemon, and wouldn't be able to survive their hits even with the same speed.

While your point is true, I think its moot because these guys aren't really switching into anything anytime soon. You shouldn't be switching either into Entei, unless it's an emergency situation (i.e you're totally fucked). They are wall breakers (or hard hitting scarfers) and darmanitan probably does the job better. Victini is interesting because it can run a special set too, but looking at the main sets, darmanitan is just better. It can 2HKO and outspeed the two most common physical walls in the game: landorus-T and rotom-W. (It takes a band to do it to Rotom though, which is a damn good set IMO). It also has much stronger U-turns, and access to superpower and a boosted rockslide, while victini can only boast zen headbutt and volt strike (which is admittedly good). Honestly Darmanitan should NOT be sitting in C+ right now, more like B or B+, but we'll have to wait. Bottom line I don't think victini should be ranked above darmanitan, so maybe B-. At most they should be equal just because victini can bluff and run a special attacking set (searing shot is awesome). When it comes to wall breaking, darmanitan is stronger, better coverage, and doesn't take LO damage.

On another note: can we discuss torn-t and how it should be way higher

 

[Chou Toshio]

-Gamefreak likes offense. This gen, defensive teams got were pretty much Mega Venusaur, Mega Scizor, Chesnaught, Sylveon, Gourgeist, and that's about it, unless you count Mega Aggron and Avalugg who are way too flawed to be used on most serious defensive teams. Meanwhile, we got Mega Kangaskhan whose absurd power eclipsed that of gen 4 Garchomp, Mega Lucario and Mega Gengar who were also absolutely insane, Mega Zards, Mega Pinsir, Aegislash, Mega T-Tar, Mega Mawile, and a bunch of other threats that defensive teams can struggle to handle without niche stuff.
Offensive threats are just outpacing defensive threats, is all.

Offensive monsters bring in more money. A Mega Charizard gets a lot more elementary school boy purchases than a Mega Blissey...

To be fair though, Aegislash and Mega Heracross also have plenty of defensive value while being offensive mons, and we have some mons soon to be released that look like they will add even more defensive value. Fairy-type has also balanced the game more towards defense than offense, and we got Assault Vest (though I guess this is more of a bulky offense item, it's still giving us more defensive options).

W-o-W + Roost Mega Charizard X is also really good, and a definite asset for stall teams that can afford not to use Mega Venusaur.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I'll further that point by saying that Pokemon are rarely purely offensive. The highest any stereotypical fast'n'frail glass cannon is on the list is A with gengar and greninja. All A+ and higher may be known for giving hits, but they're at least able to take one or two as well.

Likewise, it's difficult for a Pokemon to be purely defensive. If it weren't for flat damage sources like toxic and seismic toss, would chansey work at all? The key is to kill them faster than they can kill you, and without a decent mix of both 'fences, you can't do that enough to make it to the top

 

[Max Carvalho]

I would like to nominate gliscor for A-. He has a good defensive typing with only two weakness, basically immunity to any status after poisoned, can use a lot of support options, pivot, stealth rock and so on. He is a very good option to most OU teams.

 

[VanGru]

So, I guess I'm the first person to bring up the newly BL Weavile. It is solid B, it can perform multiple roles, most noticeably revenge-killing. The reason to use it in OU though is as a fast and relatively powerful knock-off spammer.

 

[VanGru]

Actually, there was a Weavile discussion on page 195. It seemed like the consensus was for C+/B-, but honestly I think I agree with you. Knock Off is such a good move, and Weavile's hits very hard.

I see, I started at 196ish to read.

 

[janesasha22]

I personally think Gothitelle should be B rank, for its fantastic trapping abilities.
I also think Weavile could go to B rank, but it may not be powerful enough for that rank. It may be be better fit in B-, or maybe even C+.
However, I think Hydreigon is not a B pokemon. Its speed tier is not good, its typing leaves much to be desired, and its other stats, while potentially considered well rounded, are also very average. It's similar to Weavile, but it has a tad more power and coverage, in exchange for a ton of speed. I know it isn't the best comparison, but still. Hopefully someone with more Smogon experience will back me up. It's more like B- to me.

 

[Petrico94]

For god sake, just take Mawile off the D list. Who the hell is using Mawile without the mega? Donphan might be outclassed by other hazard removers and a little easy to find counters for but putting him next to Mawile like that is just mean.

 

[Magcargo]

alexwolf Remove Donphan from the list, as it was recently rejected for an OU analysis.

 

[Magnemite]

Forretress's analysis was also recently rejected after it fell to UU, and Rotom-C has never had an OU analysis at any point, so they should be removed as well.

 

[alexwolf]

Once again, something not having an analysis is not a reason to not give it a ranking. However, a Pokemon getting rejected is a perfectly valid reason, so removing both Forretress and Donphan.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

For god sake, just take Mawile off the D list. Who the hell is using Mawile without the mega? Donphan might be outclassed by other hazard removers and a little easy to find counters for but putting him next to Mawile like that is just mean.

Non-mega Mawile has a niche on Baton Pass teams or some shit, that's why it was put there. I mean it's a really super ultra small niche, but ehhhhhh.

(If it's staying, I guess I'll suggest Aromatisse once we get to C-/D. Because it's great [on Trick Room teams and not much else.])