I'm gonna second this. The only things that happened in XY to disadvantage Reuniclus were Bisharp and Aegislash, but it really benefited from the overall shift to bulky offense by being one of the best bulky sweepers in existence. I would put it in B- at first glance because Aegislash is a pretty crippling weakness, but given that it can completely screw stall with one set (CM) and HO without Aegislash with another (OTR), I think it shouldn't be any lower than that.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
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Can it really screw Aegislash with OTR? Aegi still has priority and has his 60/150 Spedef backing vs Reun's unboosted shadow ball? In all reality, the shift to a bulky system disadvantages Reuniculus, who liked the fast/frail threats that it made really slow and picked off no issue in OTR. Now, TF and priority is rampart, Aegi is everywhere and an easy switch on a first turn to force it back out. The meta is slower and the assault vest still exists. Even pokemon like heatran, AV Slowbro on stall can shoulder different sets (depending on SB or FB in that fourth slot). Tyranitar/Aegi/Bisharp pursuit trap is everywhere, and people gear up well to stop the defog lati twins, who share three weaknesses with reun. I can't imagine this being a very healthy meta for Reun.
Update time:
Most of the changes from the VR thread
Greninja: A ---> A+
Manaphy: A+ ---> A
Landorus-T: A+ ---> A
Dragonite: A- ---> A
Mega Garchomp: A ---> A-
Scizor: A ---> A-
Scolipede: B ---> B+
Chesnaught: B- ---> B
Breloom: B- ---> B
New changes
Empoleon: C ---> D
Klefki: B- ---> C+
Togekiss: B- ---> C+
Empoleon was dropped because its analysis was rejected, Klefki is simply not that good now that Swagger has been banned, and Togekiss struggles against most popular offensive threats while being weak to SR.
The OP will be updated in a few minutes.
Most of the changes from the VR thread
Greninja: A ---> A+
Manaphy: A+ ---> A
Landorus-T: A+ ---> A
Dragonite: A- ---> A
Mega Garchomp: A ---> A-
Scizor: A ---> A-
Scolipede: B ---> B+
Chesnaught: B- ---> B
Breloom: B- ---> B
New changes
Empoleon: C ---> D
Klefki: B- ---> C+
Togekiss: B- ---> C+
Empoleon was dropped because its analysis was rejected, Klefki is simply not that good now that Swagger has been banned, and Togekiss struggles against most popular offensive threats while being weak to SR.
The OP will be updated in a few minutes.
Only thing I can think of is that nominations are hidden underneath under topics (like I think I saw Whimsicott nominated....but can't tell with Pinsir topics) and thus are ignored. That's my guess anyway.
I'd also like to contest the Kfeki drop as I remembered swagger being regarded as one of its worse sets in its thread...are its other options (screens, hazards) that much worse to consider it dropping?
Nothing is being ignored, i only made the obvious changes, anything else needs to be discussed from the whole OU mod team, and we haven't had the chance to set up a meeting yet.
As for Klefki, yeah Swagger was big enough to make it a better Pokemon in general. Also, the Swagger set wasn't considered to be the worst, just the most luck based and rage inducing.
Ah so easiest set to abuse fone, drops a bit. I wouldn't think so far as two rank though. B- seemed alright but to each their own.
EDIT: ALSO, looking at C+ reminded me of something that was one of the larger injustices of the old thread (outside of Hippowdon of course).
Tangrowth for B Rank!
This is the Grass Hippowdon, with pure emphasis on Physical Defense where Hippowdon could go mixed if needed...except that changed this Gen. With the utility of being a Physical wall on the same scale as Hippowdon and capable of going mixed with AV, he surely secures a spot in B to B- ranking easily.
While mono grass is not neccesarily a stellar typing, with weaknesses to Fire, Ice, Flying, Bug, and Poison, it carries a few amazing resistances in tow in Ground, Electric, Water and Grass that help it sponge attacks from predominant threats (taking little from the Edgequake combo is quite glorious, no?).
This is further enhanced by his phenomenal Physical Bulk, being only rivaled by Hippowdon's in that department, as his bulk is capable of shrugging off Outrages when necessary and surviving the CB Close Combat of Terrakion. Yet Tangrowth also comes with one of the best defensive abilities; Regenrator. With a way to recover Residual damage outside of Leftovers, one may wonder why we aren't going for A- rank, and the answer lies in his paltry Special Bulk.
With a base stat of 50 for his Sp. Def, one may wonder why he should be considered for anything when he takes moderate damage from even resisted special attacks, but the answer lies in this Gens new toy, Assault Vest. He is capable of a great many feats, but now he can assume the role of a mixed tank. With his standard set, he is capable of bulk of 404 HP / 315 Def / 298 Sp Def, which allows the checking of so many threats. Now while he sacrifices his Physical Bulk, he does not sacrifice his healing abilities with AV as he can use either Giga Drain or Regenerator to patch that area up.
He is not set up bait for anyone really, as Base 100 Attacking stats make him very usable to retaliate with, and his coverage is quite great for Grass Type, with Earthquake, Power Whip, and Giga Drain with the mighty Knock Off. He is able to threaten so much and counter so many, that him being in C+ rank seems like an insult to his capabilities.
So once more, Tangrowth for B Rank!
EDIT: ALSO, looking at C+ reminded me of something that was one of the larger injustices of the old thread (outside of Hippowdon of course).
Tangrowth for B Rank!
This is the Grass Hippowdon, with pure emphasis on Physical Defense where Hippowdon could go mixed if needed...except that changed this Gen. With the utility of being a Physical wall on the same scale as Hippowdon and capable of going mixed with AV, he surely secures a spot in B to B- ranking easily.
While mono grass is not neccesarily a stellar typing, with weaknesses to Fire, Ice, Flying, Bug, and Poison, it carries a few amazing resistances in tow in Ground, Electric, Water and Grass that help it sponge attacks from predominant threats (taking little from the Edgequake combo is quite glorious, no?).
This is further enhanced by his phenomenal Physical Bulk, being only rivaled by Hippowdon's in that department, as his bulk is capable of shrugging off Outrages when necessary and surviving the CB Close Combat of Terrakion. Yet Tangrowth also comes with one of the best defensive abilities; Regenrator. With a way to recover Residual damage outside of Leftovers, one may wonder why we aren't going for A- rank, and the answer lies in his paltry Special Bulk.
With a base stat of 50 for his Sp. Def, one may wonder why he should be considered for anything when he takes moderate damage from even resisted special attacks, but the answer lies in this Gens new toy, Assault Vest. He is capable of a great many feats, but now he can assume the role of a mixed tank. With his standard set, he is capable of bulk of 404 HP / 315 Def / 298 Sp Def, which allows the checking of so many threats. Now while he sacrifices his Physical Bulk, he does not sacrifice his healing abilities with AV as he can use either Giga Drain or Regenerator to patch that area up.
He is not set up bait for anyone really, as Base 100 Attacking stats make him very usable to retaliate with, and his coverage is quite great for Grass Type, with Earthquake, Power Whip, and Giga Drain with the mighty Knock Off. He is able to threaten so much and counter so many, that him being in C+ rank seems like an insult to his capabilities.
So once more, Tangrowth for B Rank!
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was there any discussion on mega chomp? seriously I even went out of my way to make a post about bulky chomp. Speed is a crappy argument in a lando t meta. I feel like noboy has even used the thing and is being judged on theorymon
It was dropped because it was dropped in the VR thread too, and i already mentioned that whatever change takes place there will happen here too.
From what I can see from the VR thread, the posts concerning Mega-Chomp are its mega slot, reliance on sand, and all. Most detailed argument was this post:
While I understand the arguments, I do not think that they are enough to be brought down to A-.
I love how Galvantula was being compared to Shuckle because they both have Sticky Web
Life Orb Galvantula is a great asset to a HO team, providing both offensive and defensive advantages while keeping the momentum going with Volt Switch. 91% Accurate thunders are not to be sniffed at (especially if you predict right) and Sticky Web speaks for itself (Not every team has all Levitate/Flying types). It may be frail and weak to one of the most common types in the tier, but if used correctly, it can be quite the threat.
Galvantula to stay at its current rank. (B-?)
Life Orb Galvantula is a great asset to a HO team, providing both offensive and defensive advantages while keeping the momentum going with Volt Switch. 91% Accurate thunders are not to be sniffed at (especially if you predict right) and Sticky Web speaks for itself (Not every team has all Levitate/Flying types). It may be frail and weak to one of the most common types in the tier, but if used correctly, it can be quite the threat.
Galvantula to stay at its current rank. (B-?)
Mega Chomp doesn't even rely on sand, that's the thing, being as strong or stronger than Lo chomp w/o recoil is already freaking amazing, that's another huge misconception of Mega Chomp
Believe me, I know, but its one of the things people cite as their arguments and that's why I showed them. Mega Chomp is a great Pokémon, one of the best Wall Breakers with taking out multiple foes in just three moves (Dragon, Ground, Fire Coverage) and last slot for picks (Iron Head for reliabl Sand support Damage or more utility in STone Edge) make him one of the scariest foes to fight. I would love to see him stick at least A as A- seems a bit silly to me if Clefable is getting discussed to A+.
But it could be one of those things like Dragonite moving down and then back up. Opinions opinions
The problem with that is as soon as you attack you reveal the fact that you don't have a Sash, and your opponent can just murder you with Talonflame anyway. You'll probably get one kill before you're forced out.
Updated the list with the changes that happened in this post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...thread-re-ranking.3502268/page-3#post-5371575
Or you could Sticky Web then Volt Switch? Granted there are a few problems with that (Lightningrod, Ground types). Oh and of course, don't lead with it if you see Talonflame (Or Bisharp, Defiant hurts). Of course that isn't really good for a Hazard Setter, but it still carries momentum through the team thanks to Volt Switch, and being able break through Subs with Bug Buzz is good too. And again, STAB Thunder, it hurts.
I'm a bit confused at Politoed being moved to A-.
While it's undeniable that rain is a powerful playstyle, Politoed itself is a liability no matter how you look at it. There's a reason many rain teams run Rain Dance Deoxys-S over that sitting frog.
If you run Damp Rock Toed then it's a momentum killer whenever you bring it in, and if you don't then rain can be stalled out with Protect and/on intelligent switching.
On top of that it actually has a bad match-up against Charizard Y (especially if both lead) despite a type advantage.
Politoed is in a very unique position, being both the best form of support a rain team could ask for, but at the same time being flawed enough to be considered a liability - let's be honest, Politoed is always "the worst team member" in a rain team, to the same degree Ninetales was for sun teams in the past generation.
I think it's a bit too flawed to be placed in A- rank.
While it's undeniable that rain is a powerful playstyle, Politoed itself is a liability no matter how you look at it. There's a reason many rain teams run Rain Dance Deoxys-S over that sitting frog.
If you run Damp Rock Toed then it's a momentum killer whenever you bring it in, and if you don't then rain can be stalled out with Protect and/on intelligent switching.
On top of that it actually has a bad match-up against Charizard Y (especially if both lead) despite a type advantage.
Politoed is in a very unique position, being both the best form of support a rain team could ask for, but at the same time being flawed enough to be considered a liability - let's be honest, Politoed is always "the worst team member" in a rain team, to the same degree Ninetales was for sun teams in the past generation.
I think it's a bit too flawed to be placed in A- rank.
You're so negative u.u Yes, Politoed has flaws, but what it provides for its team is instant Rain whenever it comes in, meaning its teammates won't have to waste a turn using Rain Dance or give up a slot for Rain Dance, it just comes in and it is there. I tested Politoed a bit and I love the Specs set specifically because it OHKOes M-Zard Y after Rocks in Sun, while doing (68.4 - 80.5%), leaving it prone to being killed. I am intrigued with an EV Spread that has worked wonders, and that is Modest Specs 156 HP / 216 SpA / 136 Spe or 160 HP / 212 SpA / 136 Spe. The Speed EVs are designed to outspeed 252 Adamant Crawdaunt, which absolutely loves the rain you instantly provide for it, while 216 SpA EVs ensure the OHKO on it without Rocks, while with 212 you have a 93.8% chance to OHKO without Rocks. 160 HP EVs ensures you live one Solar Beam from M-Zard Y, while with 156 HP 6.3% chance to be OHKO'ed by Charizard's Solar Beam. You can also just run 252 SpA / 116 SpD / 136 Spe which gives you the same Special Bulk with more power, but you become more frail on the physical side. Ok, so basically the point I am trying to get across is that a good Politoed player will not let it be a 'liability' and it should not just be disregarded as one, as it has access to a plethora of support moves such as Scald, Haze, Encore, and Perish Song.
Politoad is amazing with a pair of specs and is unquestionably the best rain setter in OU. I've been recently been using a rain team and I guarantee that it isn't a liability with damp rock.
I think that Mega Charizard Y should be moved down to A+. To begin, I would like to revisit the definition of an S-rank:
the pink blobs Blissey (Chansey can still Wish+Protect or Softboiled off the damage). Depending on what they come in on, it is very easy to guess those two moves. For example, if they ever have a choice and come in on SR, they almost certainly have Roost. If they come in on one of the conditional checks, then they carry a move for that particular check. Now, I would like to revisit the definition. "If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths." Charizard Y has one strength. It hits hard. It has subpar Speed, limited bulk (78/78/115 is pretty poor uninvested), and a crippling Stealth Rock weakness combined with a need to switch in and out to fulfill its role. The combination of these factors results in it being worn down very quickly. Due to the combination of these factors, I believe that Zard Y does not fit the S rank definition and should be moved down to A+.
Zard Y cannot sweep a majority of the metagame. Or wall a majority of the metagame. I think we can all agree on that. Therefore, for it to be S-rank, it would need to either be incredibly versatile (it has ONE set) or be able to support other pokemon with very little opportunity cost (I wouldn't call being setup fodder for Zard X, Gyarados if it plays smart, and Mega Tyranitar, 3 of the best setup sweepers in the tier, all of which only need the one turn of setup you get by coming in on Zard Y, very little opportunity cost). In addition, Zard Y has tremendous 4MSS. Fire Blast/Flamethrower and Solarbeam are mandatory, then for the last two slots you have a choice between Roost, Dragon Pulse, Focus Blast, Earthquake, and Flare Blitz (lol). Without Roost, you get destroyed by Stealth Rock and even weaker attacks hurt due to the lack of survivability. Without Dragon Pulse, Lati@s can switch in and kill you. Without Focus Blast, Tyranitar beats you. Without Earthquake or Focus Blast, Heatran walls you all day long. Without Flare Blitz, you don't have a hope of getting past
The S rank definition is simply flawed in that point as it doesnt consider wall breakers like Charizard. He isnt a sweeper or a wall so those 2 points cant be used on him, but his massiv power certainly makes him a decent wall breaker powerful enough to break every wall in the game with the right move. The only things that can take his special attacks are the blobs and they get busted by flare blitz. His case of 4mss is a minor one as he doesnt realy need dragon pulse all that much. Fireblast/Flareblitz, Solarbeam, Focus Blast, Roost is a perfectly fine set.
Good luck battling Lati@s with that set though.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 144-171 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 126-148 (41.7 - 49%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
You can't have zardY and zardX in separate tiers. Both are S imo mainly because of the unpredictability factor and one bad switch can lose the game making it incredibly hard and important to make the right move. You can usually get an idea of which version you are facing by team preview but zardX and zardY both have a wide variety of moves to choose from.
like earthquake or a speed boosting move on zardY to break though counters or clean offensive teams. zardX can be running a defensive WoW set or dd set with 3 attacks or even two with roost.
And don't say 4mss is a bad thing because it's not... It just means zard has a lot of options.
like earthquake or a speed boosting move on zardY to break though counters or clean offensive teams. zardX can be running a defensive WoW set or dd set with 3 attacks or even two with roost.
And don't say 4mss is a bad thing because it's not... It just means zard has a lot of options.
First off I've been trying to get Reuniclus ranked for like forever. Reuniclus is a very solid pokemon despite its lackluster typing and the metagame shifts recently towards faster wallbreakers like keldeo and away from voltturna and priority really benefit it. Reuniclus OTR set still destroys HO while Aegislash can be an issue Shadow Ball, Focus Blast Psyshock can cover it and since Trick Room is in effect "faster" pokemon such as Raikou can deal with Aegislash incredibly well in Trick Room. Reuniclus' CM stallbreaker set is still good yet outclassed by Clefable in most areas except the added unpredictability that Reuniclus brings being both a stop to HO and stall depending on the set. Reuniclus' offensive power combined with excellent bulk make it a B/B- rank pokemon IMO.
A pokemon that I would like to see bumped up is Escavalier at least to C+ as looking at the C rankings Escavalier clearly does not belong. Assualt Vest Escavalier can fit a large variety of teams because of his excellent typing and requires very little support just a pokemon to absorb burns and fire moves. Pursuit Trapper Escavalier fits really well in a very common team structure as of late: Keldeo, Zard Y + pursuit trapper. Drill Run makes Fire types such as Heatran much more wary of switching in while Knock Off makes Escavalier excellent utility. Escavalier is not outclassed by Scizor as it is more powerful with STAB megahorn and is more bulky with an Assault Vest.
A pokemon that I would like to see bumped up is Escavalier at least to C+ as looking at the C rankings Escavalier clearly does not belong. Assualt Vest Escavalier can fit a large variety of teams because of his excellent typing and requires very little support just a pokemon to absorb burns and fire moves. Pursuit Trapper Escavalier fits really well in a very common team structure as of late: Keldeo, Zard Y + pursuit trapper. Drill Run makes Fire types such as Heatran much more wary of switching in while Knock Off makes Escavalier excellent utility. Escavalier is not outclassed by Scizor as it is more powerful with STAB megahorn and is more bulky with an Assault Vest.
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