MilkyWay01 Are you actually serious about dropping Fable, literally one of the most useful and easy to slap on mons in the current meta. This guy is pretty much a catch all check to so many dangerous mons, much akin to Ferrothorn in that regard. In fact, the only reason it isn't S rank is the fact that its stats aren't amazing, they still do the job well enough and after 2 CM boosts, which are really fucking easy to get, it has no issues with its lacklustre stats.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Imo the only thing that keeps Clef from S rank are its mediocre stats. + 100 BST on it and it would shoot straight up to S rank or even übers.
Its by far the most versatile pokemon in the tier, needs basicly zero support while providing support itself, even without heal bell/Wish its still supporting the team as a status absorber a very important thing for balanced teams. It checks a shitload of stuff because only the strongest attackers can break through it. Even with Calm nature and the SpD EVs it still has enough physical bulk to hold its own against most unboosted physical attackers and checks many dangerous special attackers perfectly. The most important beeing Greninja who can be a pain for balance to deal with. And with all that defensive and support potential it can also work as a win condition with calm mind. It usually has a field day setting up calm mind boosts and gets very dangerous after 1 or 2 of them and there are only a handfull things that can stop it reliably as things like Exca/Scizor/Bisharp can only switch in once due to flamethrower. Faster taunters are the only reliable stops to it and even some of them get into trouble if clef got a boost while they switched in.
Its without a doubt one of the best mons in A+ and imo a borderline S rank mon. Nothing else does so many things so well with just one set, and it has tons of sets to fullfil almost every role you want it to.
Its by far the most versatile pokemon in the tier, needs basicly zero support while providing support itself, even without heal bell/Wish its still supporting the team as a status absorber a very important thing for balanced teams. It checks a shitload of stuff because only the strongest attackers can break through it. Even with Calm nature and the SpD EVs it still has enough physical bulk to hold its own against most unboosted physical attackers and checks many dangerous special attackers perfectly. The most important beeing Greninja who can be a pain for balance to deal with. And with all that defensive and support potential it can also work as a win condition with calm mind. It usually has a field day setting up calm mind boosts and gets very dangerous after 1 or 2 of them and there are only a handfull things that can stop it reliably as things like Exca/Scizor/Bisharp can only switch in once due to flamethrower. Faster taunters are the only reliable stops to it and even some of them get into trouble if clef got a boost while they switched in.
Its without a doubt one of the best mons in A+ and imo a borderline S rank mon. Nothing else does so many things so well with just one set, and it has tons of sets to fullfil almost every role you want it to.
Mew: A ---> A+ I agree with this one, it can break stall extremely well and has the right bulk and moveset to cause problems, It also has a great set of moves to use which makes it extremely versatile.
Mega Charizard X: S ---> A+ Disagree, at current despite the way the meta is going I feel like Char X can still easily hold its own and sweep a good portion of the meta after just one boost, although it's checks and counters are becoming more popular at present.
Tyranitar (Mega): A+ ---> A This one I can agree with, the mega in my opinion is a waste of a mega slot as it's main set seems to be Dragon Dance, however Char X does it much better and tyranitar as a non mega has much better team support which makes the non mega the favorable choice.
Venusaur (Mega): A+ ---> A Sand is making Venusaur's life miserable, the hit synthesis takes is enough to cause Venusaur to have a serious disadvantage at present with it being a defensive pokemon. When sand dies down it can easily go back up a rank but for now A suits better.
Suicune: B+ ---> A- Simple answer to this is if you don't have something that can counter the calm mind set, you are in a lot of trouble and for that it definitely deserves A-.
Mega Charizard X: S ---> A+ Disagree, at current despite the way the meta is going I feel like Char X can still easily hold its own and sweep a good portion of the meta after just one boost, although it's checks and counters are becoming more popular at present.
Tyranitar (Mega): A+ ---> A This one I can agree with, the mega in my opinion is a waste of a mega slot as it's main set seems to be Dragon Dance, however Char X does it much better and tyranitar as a non mega has much better team support which makes the non mega the favorable choice.
Venusaur (Mega): A+ ---> A Sand is making Venusaur's life miserable, the hit synthesis takes is enough to cause Venusaur to have a serious disadvantage at present with it being a defensive pokemon. When sand dies down it can easily go back up a rank but for now A suits better.
Suicune: B+ ---> A- Simple answer to this is if you don't have something that can counter the calm mind set, you are in a lot of trouble and for that it definitely deserves A-.
I'm not sure if you're a troll or just new to battling, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not a troll. Mega Venusaur will not be going to ubers any time soon due to the fact that both of its sets can be checked or countered by a large number of A-ranked mons alone, including but not limited to Heatran, the Latis, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, Skarmory and Kyurem-B. To top it off, sand has become more popular, which slows its healing down and increases the number of reliable checks. It's by no means a bad Mon, but I doubt anyone even wants it going to S-Rank, let alone ubers.
Suicune doesn't deserve the A- rank imo.. it has just 1 viable set (which is the CroCune one) so it's predictable as fuck. In addition to that it's great against just few stall teams (because some runs Clear Smog Amoonguss which it can't break) because against offensive teams, hard hitters like Thundurus or Pinsir won't let it setup more than 1 Calm Mind. Also as I already said on the other discussion, stall teams rly won't be as much as popular as before because of how Gardevoir, Heracross and Medicham are in the current metagame. Def not A- rank material TBH
yeah mew needs to be A+, I was sitting there one game thinking about the best way to kill mew and then I realized that you are not going to beat it with attacks
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 104+ SpD Mew: 273-322 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I mean hydreigon isnt common but it speaks to mews bulkiness, the only way I could think of beating mew is with a stallbreaking heatran that speed creeps it so it can taunt it and not get willoed, etc... but yeah mew is very difficult to take down and perfectly fits into the A+ rank.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 104+ SpD Mew: 273-322 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I mean hydreigon isnt common but it speaks to mews bulkiness, the only way I could think of beating mew is with a stallbreaking heatran that speed creeps it so it can taunt it and not get willoed, etc... but yeah mew is very difficult to take down and perfectly fits into the A+ rank.
It sure is predictable but similar to Pinsir and Char Y it doesnt realy care about it because knowing whats coming is often not enough to stop it. Yes there are a few things, like Thundurus, that can stop it but most of them are very offensive and cant take more than 2 or 3 Scalds and after they are gone Cune can just set up without caring at all. And Cune is not only a good win option, it can also serve as a status absorber and physical wall/tank capable of beating a good number of physical threats in the meta. Just to give you an idea of its bulk, Mega Gyarados needs +3 to be able to 2hko it and after 1 cm Mega Manetric fails to 2hko. And with Scald you dont want to face it at all as a physical attacker unless your name is Charizard X. And like thats not enough, it can also check some dangerous special attackers as well. Namely Greninja without HP Grass and Keldeo. So yeah i totaly agree with Cune for A- or higher, that thing is awesome and hopelessly underrated.
Suicune definitely deserves A-, Baharoth summed it up nicely. Predictability is one thing, until you realize that despite Suicune being simplistic in nature, it isn't simple taking it down. Suicune functions as a Sleep/Status Absorber, a win condition similar to CM Clefable sets, except it's bulky as fuck and easily sets up on quite a bit of the meta. Thundurus and Landorus etc. have the strength to defeat it, but if CroCune gets 2 calm minds up, neither can 2HKO anymore. While Suicune's biggest weakness is offensive pressure, most physical attackers lose or risk a burn, and one of the go to Special Wallbreakers for most teams, Keldeo can't break it without relying on an HP. Functioning as a wall, a win condition, status absorber, and being able to offer scald support are definite traits that could go into A-.
The point that it won't ever get 2 CMs up against offense because of Thundurus, HP Grass Greninja, and the other hard hitters. Against Stall it has a good matchup for sure, but Clear Smog Amoonguss is a thing. Also, stall teams now rly wants to run Slowbro / Alomomola to check Medicham which is becoming a threat so it isn't very common as well. I just feel that it's a mediocre mon, but if you guys feel like that it deserves the A- rank, I don't really care too much.
Will probably add something later, I gotta other stuff to do now
Will probably add something later, I gotta other stuff to do now
Mega Pinsir has only one viable set too and this doesn't stop it from being in A+ rank. Hell it didn't stop Mega Char Y from getting to S rank before a few months, when the only set that was being used was Roost +3 attacks. Amoonguss is a really shitty answer to Suicune because Clear Smog has only 12 PPs against Suicune, so it's very easy to stall out, and Amoonguss is so weak that it can't even 2HKO Suicune with two Giga Drain crits. Amoonguss only works as a check if paired with Chansey, so that you don't need to use Clear Smog as often and can eventually PP stall Suicune. Almost any offensive Pokemon that checks Suicune has trouble switching in, such as Thundurus, Breloom, Mega Manectric, Kyurem-B, and even Mega Venusaur, because they all hate getting burned and become very easy to wear down, which often results to Suicune outlasting them and being able to sweep late-game. Of course Suicune can be overwhelmed with sheer offensive pressure, but this is assuming the Cune player is stupid and starts setting up against random Pokemon that can 2HKO / 2HKO Suicune, instead of setting up on things like choice locked Keldeo to Scald / Hydro Pump, AV Azumarill, WoW Charizard X, SR Clefable, Sharp Beak Talonflame without SD, etc., at least one of which can be found on every single team.
All in all, teams hardly pack more than one answer to Suicune, which makes it very easy for Suicune to sweep without too much support in the late-game. However, Suicune does rely a lot on Scald burning its checks to outlast them and if this doesn't happen Suicune will most likely fail to sweep, and offensive teams with a lot of strong attackers can usually make Cune's presence insignificant, not to mention the unreliability of RestTalk's mechanics, which make Suicune far from an ideal sweeper. Still though, Cune is a very dangerous and underprepared for threat that is worthy of A- imo.
EDIT: Ninja'd
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responses to a few things zzz...
mew -> a. mew is one of my favorite pokemon to use in the tier, and it's definitely very solid, as the taunt + knock off + will-o-wisp combo can be very threatening, plus mew is very threatening to many archetypes, especially defensive and sand offense. it's just kind of hard for me to see in a+ rank. it might as well not even exist against every team with a charizard or talonflame and can often be broken down with sheer force through things like mega gardevoir. things like heatran and gliscor are also very annoying for it, and anything that can get up a sub pretty much is screwing it over. while certainly a very effective pokemon, it's also hard to compare with many of the a+ rank pokemon, which are so metagame-defining and prominent. while it has gained some popularity, i don't think mew is as threatening overall as, say, mega gyarados or mega charizard y or clefable or excadrill. kinda struggling to put all of the 'why' in words but mew just doesn't feel like an a+ rank pokemon to me.
garchomp -> a. originally i kinda thought this was crazy but it makes sense the more i think about it. garchomp is great. it has a threatening stab combo, it has nice utility when it sets up rocks, scarf revenge kills a lot of things, checks a lot of big threats, and bulky enough that it can be damn hard to ko. it can set up sd or use fire blast to bypass skarm. it can run a cool rocky helmet defensive set to take advantage of that nice bulk and set up rocks as well as check a bunch of things. however, the meta has shifted away from it, especially with the rise of landorus-t. landorus-t, especially scarf, directly competes with garchomp for a teamslot. they overlap in a lot of ways, but landorus-t has intimidate and more importantly u-turn, which allows it to keep momentum and gets rid of the crazy mindgames you have to deal with every time the opponent has a ground immunity and something to tank an outrage if you're using scarfchomp. especially with excadrill in the metagame, a big thing landt deals with better, plus then you have knock off which is so useful... it's becoming more difficult to justify using chomp over landt, and with that in mind, it should drop.
mega charizard x -> a+. i've already talked about a bunch in the other thread. tldr can't sweep with all the sand/scarf landt/other stuff around, wisp set is great but even combined zard x isn't s rank-worthy.
mega gyarados moving down is lolworthy. it is probably the most consistent mega pokemon in the ou tier. neither scarf landt, nor sand excadrill, nor any priority is capable of revenge killing it, which is enormous, and it always manages to do something. great power, excellent coverage, and enormous flexibility afforded by the typing switch from its normal to mega form that lets it check or counter many pokemon, such as keldeo, greninja, and landorus, and gives it lots of setup opportunities that can spell the end for many teams. the only real issue for it is that ferrothorn is on a lot of teams, and is a hard stop to it, but this can be rectified via support of teammates like hp fire latis, magnezone, or whatever, and it's definitely not the end of the world. mega gyarados is a solid, safe choice in this metagame that it has the perfect traits to succeed in.
i don't think any of the wallbreaking megas (gard, hera, cham) should move up to a+. the biggest issue i have is that they are easily revenge killed and do have a good amount of checks/can be played around. sure, they are incredible nukes and can break down a lot of defensive pokemon, but they are very one-sided in this respect. none of these pokemon provide much defensive utility for the team, forcing teams to compensate in that they have to cover all the normal things in 5 slots plus the things these pokemon have trouble with like extra coverage for birds, all that, and have very few actual switch-in opportunities which means they rely on double switches and voltturning teammates in many instances, a major limitation. teams built for them can be very effective, but that's the key -- teams must be built around them for them to succeed. these limitations lend me to believe none of the three should rise any higher.
quoting alexander for truth about suicune:
mew -> a. mew is one of my favorite pokemon to use in the tier, and it's definitely very solid, as the taunt + knock off + will-o-wisp combo can be very threatening, plus mew is very threatening to many archetypes, especially defensive and sand offense. it's just kind of hard for me to see in a+ rank. it might as well not even exist against every team with a charizard or talonflame and can often be broken down with sheer force through things like mega gardevoir. things like heatran and gliscor are also very annoying for it, and anything that can get up a sub pretty much is screwing it over. while certainly a very effective pokemon, it's also hard to compare with many of the a+ rank pokemon, which are so metagame-defining and prominent. while it has gained some popularity, i don't think mew is as threatening overall as, say, mega gyarados or mega charizard y or clefable or excadrill. kinda struggling to put all of the 'why' in words but mew just doesn't feel like an a+ rank pokemon to me.
garchomp -> a. originally i kinda thought this was crazy but it makes sense the more i think about it. garchomp is great. it has a threatening stab combo, it has nice utility when it sets up rocks, scarf revenge kills a lot of things, checks a lot of big threats, and bulky enough that it can be damn hard to ko. it can set up sd or use fire blast to bypass skarm. it can run a cool rocky helmet defensive set to take advantage of that nice bulk and set up rocks as well as check a bunch of things. however, the meta has shifted away from it, especially with the rise of landorus-t. landorus-t, especially scarf, directly competes with garchomp for a teamslot. they overlap in a lot of ways, but landorus-t has intimidate and more importantly u-turn, which allows it to keep momentum and gets rid of the crazy mindgames you have to deal with every time the opponent has a ground immunity and something to tank an outrage if you're using scarfchomp. especially with excadrill in the metagame, a big thing landt deals with better, plus then you have knock off which is so useful... it's becoming more difficult to justify using chomp over landt, and with that in mind, it should drop.
mega charizard x -> a+. i've already talked about a bunch in the other thread. tldr can't sweep with all the sand/scarf landt/other stuff around, wisp set is great but even combined zard x isn't s rank-worthy.
mega gyarados moving down is lolworthy. it is probably the most consistent mega pokemon in the ou tier. neither scarf landt, nor sand excadrill, nor any priority is capable of revenge killing it, which is enormous, and it always manages to do something. great power, excellent coverage, and enormous flexibility afforded by the typing switch from its normal to mega form that lets it check or counter many pokemon, such as keldeo, greninja, and landorus, and gives it lots of setup opportunities that can spell the end for many teams. the only real issue for it is that ferrothorn is on a lot of teams, and is a hard stop to it, but this can be rectified via support of teammates like hp fire latis, magnezone, or whatever, and it's definitely not the end of the world. mega gyarados is a solid, safe choice in this metagame that it has the perfect traits to succeed in.
i don't think any of the wallbreaking megas (gard, hera, cham) should move up to a+. the biggest issue i have is that they are easily revenge killed and do have a good amount of checks/can be played around. sure, they are incredible nukes and can break down a lot of defensive pokemon, but they are very one-sided in this respect. none of these pokemon provide much defensive utility for the team, forcing teams to compensate in that they have to cover all the normal things in 5 slots plus the things these pokemon have trouble with like extra coverage for birds, all that, and have very few actual switch-in opportunities which means they rely on double switches and voltturning teammates in many instances, a major limitation. teams built for them can be very effective, but that's the key -- teams must be built around them for them to succeed. these limitations lend me to believe none of the three should rise any higher.
quoting alexander for truth about suicune:
alexwolf, what you said also holds true:
suicune primarily excels against more defensive archetypes that are significantly less prominent in this metagame. very strong attackers being so common and able to power right through it, and its reliance on chances (scald burn, resttalk to pick the right moves) definitely limit its effectiveness. it is kind of underprepared for, but i've never found it that difficult to account for when building a team, that i need to make such big shifts because suicune is a problem. plenty of good pokemon like keldeo, mega venusaur, thundurus, kyurem-b, amoonguss, psong celebi, mega medicham, mega heracross, latios, cm sp clefable, gk greninja, sub gyarados, mew, breloom, as well as just combinations of multiple hard hitters are often enough to break past it or serve as full stops to it. suicune is pretty good, but b+ is as high as it should go.
If Suicune moves up I think Manaphy could go to A as it can not only pull off Crocune more reliably, it can get to pseudo +7 allowing it to 2HKO Chansey which is something Suicune can't do. The only advantage Suicune has over it is slightly more bulk and Pressure. Now this isn't the only reason I think it should move up but it can also run Tail Glow for a more offensive approach and even run things like Wacan Berry to get past Thundurus and common electric types. This is only if Suicune moves up though.
Manaphy is not really worthy of the A rank, (not saying cune is worthy of a- though) it can run a great defensive set with calm mind, and a decent offensive set with tailgrow, its immunity to status in rain is also good as gold against stall. it often have a bad time against offense, mainly because of its lacking base 100 spa, where it have to get up a tailglow or a few cm's before doing very much. A- is just fine for manaphy, and B+ is for cune
Also, in rain it actually gets a pseudo +10...
While I don't disagree that Manaphy should be a sub-rank higher than Suicune, I won't be so sure to say Manaphy is more reliable when sand storm is on every other team on the ladder.
I kinda agree, but on the other hand, it can just set up the rain whenever ttar/hippo comes in
Though you cannot use Rest as liberally as Suicune can.
Manaphy is held back by average at best speed and a weak offense without Tail Glow. Wacan Berry Manaphy is very good at preventing Thundy-I etc, but the fact that giving up leftovers severely hampers its bulk and without LO it isn't as strong. Combine that with the fact that it is easily RKed, Manaphy going for A because of it's TG set doesn't make any sense. Even it's bulky Hydration-Rest set suffers from the same things that were mentioned for Suicune, only in this case you are not as bulky and rely on Scald, though with Sand becoming more prominent, being able to swap weather to Rain is very nice.
Edit: Not even gonna read the above posts, I'm pretty sure I got ninja'd hard
Edit: Not even gonna read the above posts, I'm pretty sure I got ninja'd hard
I think this is the biggest downside to using Manaphy, and it's not just sand. If you fail for any reason to have rain up when Manaphy uses Rest (for instance, if you Rest on the turn that the rain disappears), it is a sitting duck, making Suicune's RestTalk more reliable in several situations.
That said, being able to take out Chansey and Mega Charizard Y (unless Sunny Day Charizard Y ever becomes a thing) means that if it has to be below Suicune, it shouldn't be by more than one rank.
Better defenses and Pressure give a whole different dimension to Suicune and allow it to be both a wall and a sweeper, unlike Manaphy, which struggles to avoid the 2HKO from Pokemon such as LO Terrakion and LO Excadrill, unlike CM Suicune, which in the end matters a lot, especially against offensive teams. Also, Pressure gives much less time to Pokemon such as Mega Venusaur to fish for a crit, as they have only 8 tries, which means that the chances are on Suicune's side.
But anyway, i had totally forgot about CM Stored Power Clefable and GK Greninja (still in the HP Grass Greninja era, but honestly GK is amazing), two major players in both offensive and defensive teams that fuck up Suicune pretty badly, so thanks Jukain for bringing it up, i now agree that Suicune should stay in B+.
Jukain said:
- 252+ Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 288-340 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 222-263 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 217-256 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 182-216 (54.9 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yep Suicune really needs to burn its counters / checks with Scald, and if it doesn't do that it's a mediocre pokèmon. I have to admit though that if it does that, it starts to become a very pain so yeah I agree that Suicune can suit the A-rank as well after all but B+ rank fits anyway well I guess.
this goes back to the flexibility with your mega typing. first of all, jolly landt (aka the only one you should be using) doesn't even have an ohko with superpower. you also have to force the evo for it to even do anything. most sand rush excadrill are not life orb, and for good reason, which does significantly less, plus the fact that it's a toss-up whether or not it evovles. gyara has to be evo'd for loom's mach to even do shit and even then, that's not even /that/ much damage. cb talon is valid, though.
From my experience, Gyarados does have to MEvolve when attacking, because it usually wants the extra power to get past some bulky stuff that could check it otherwise. It might not MEvolve on turn one as it sets up, but by the time it gets a kill, it usually has already MEvolved, though this depends on the team you face i guess. Also, i was taking into account SR for Scarf Lando-T to revenge kill Gyarados, so nature doesn't really matter. All in all though, it's true that all of those Pokemon have a bit more difficulty revenge killing Mega Gyarados than Mega Tyranitar, so that's another pro of Mega Gyarados.
Both moves are excellent and we all know that usage does not equal viability. CM + Stored Power allows Clefable to build up offensive pressure much faster, in order to get past Chansey and Unaware users for example, while also countering CM Suicune, a huge threat to stall teams. Grass Knot > Hidden Power Grass because all that HP Grass hits harder is Rotom-W, which is already 2HKOed by Extrasensory after SR, and also allows Greninja to use Hidden Power Fire to get past Ferrothorn.
Ladder always is a little bit late on catching up to latest trends, this doesn't mean that those trends aren't good.
Not sure if anyone has brought this up, but I think Whimsicott might deserve a D rank for its niche in dedicated troll teams. It can run Prankster Taunt and Memento to provide an opportunity for Smeargle to set up.
Edit: Sorry I didn't read post #90 before this. My bad.
Edit: Sorry I didn't read post #90 before this. My bad.
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