I don't care if char-Y moves down or not but, like mega char-y loves to have pursuit support, mega garde loves to have magnezone support so it doesn't need to rely on focus blast and use HP Ground instead.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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If Gardy is at +0, she needs to pray Focus Miss hits twice in a row (~50% chance), and if she runs HP Ground or Thunderbolt (those exist), she won't do shit to Air Balloon Heatran especially if it has Flash Cannon. She has 4MSS because she'd really like to use Hyper Voice, Psyshock, Thunderbolt, Focus Miss, Calm Mind, WoW and Taunt on the same moveset... but she can't.
Are we seriously discussing moving Landorus-I down? He's THE bane to stall teams, can take care of Chansey with Knock Off and literally forces stall to use Cress or Ice Fang Gliscor (and the latter can fall to HP Ice variants). He also does pretty well against offense thanks to its trolly base 101 speed and okayish bulk for a sweeper. Keep Lando S.
Lets see garde's switch-ins that it needs to use focus blast to hit:
Heatran, ferro, zor, rachi, bronzong, Excadrill, Sp. def Skarm, Magnezone.
What Char-y needs to hit with focus blast:
Heatran, tyranitar.
Char-y can also use eq too if you're more concerned about accuracy and can handle tyranitar (not hard), mega garde has no other options bar.....hp fighting lol
As far as switching into skarm/chansey, i mean everything switches into those so I wouldn't really take that into account lol. Also....
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 118-139 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (107 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 126-148 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 141-166 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 124-147 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 132-156 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 135-159 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 135-160 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
44+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 118-141 (45.2 - 54%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 118-139 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (107 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 126-148 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 141-166 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 124-147 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 132-156 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 135-159 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 135-160 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
44+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 118-141 (45.2 - 54%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 118-139 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Seriously mega medicham just does not switch into attacks lmao.
Of the switch-ins you posted, some are rly uncommon/niche like Sp. def Skarm, and Exca isn't trying to take Hyper Voice. Why would Mega-Garde run HP Fighting... if it REALLY didn't want to use Focus Blast it'd run HP ground and use Magnezone support, which it doesn't really need to do, unlike Char Y who needs Pursuit support. If a Focus Blast doesn't hit on the switch , you can switch out and try again later, which is hard to do for Char Y because SR. For Medicham, you should be able to predict when to switch in by predicting healing moves and the like. If you're switching in to random stall attacks I can see from your calcs that you're taking more or less the same as Char Y takes just by switching in on SR anyway. I'm sure Char Y doesn't enjoy Venusaurs Sludge Bombs and Zapdos' Thunderbolts either. Char-Y's main advantage in my eyes is its spammable Fire Blast, but it requires 2 forms of support while Garde and Medicham don't really need anything but free switches to nuke.
Time for a probably unpopular opinion, but I'm going to suggest mass dropping, first I would drop Char X, Keldeo and Landorus from S rank, because IMO in this meta Azumarill and Thundurus are overall better mons, and since I always felt S rank should be as exclusive as it can get a S rank composed from 2 mon makes more sense at least for me.
However if we drop those 3, some A+ rank mons simple don't deserve do be in the same rank as those powerhouses, I'd then drop at least Char Y, MegaGyarados and MegaTyranitar, because I really can't see those guys in the same rank as CharX or Lando, and of course I would not up anyting from A+ to S, because I really fell S should be a rank as exclusive as possible.
As for the Mega Breakers situation I think they should all share the same rank because they have some advantages over each other so IMO Char-Y, MegaCham, MegaGard and MegaCross should be all either A or A+, I'd personally prefer A but if one of them is considered A+ I think all should share this destiny.
However if we drop those 3, some A+ rank mons simple don't deserve do be in the same rank as those powerhouses, I'd then drop at least Char Y, MegaGyarados and MegaTyranitar, because I really can't see those guys in the same rank as CharX or Lando, and of course I would not up anyting from A+ to S, because I really fell S should be a rank as exclusive as possible.
As for the Mega Breakers situation I think they should all share the same rank because they have some advantages over each other so IMO Char-Y, MegaCham, MegaGard and MegaCross should be all either A or A+, I'd personally prefer A but if one of them is considered A+ I think all should share this destiny.
I'm going to nominate Granbull for C rank. I've used this thing a few times on a Stall team and it works great as a intimidate pivot. It's Fairy typing is a blessing. The biggest problems stall teams face are Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir, Landorus-I, and Terrakion. While he can't beat all of them straight up, he does a great job at checking the physical threats. STAB Play Rough is an awesome move coming off of a base 120 Attack, even though it's uninvested. It's a great cleric and it is awesome at checking set-up sweepers thanks to T-wave. I does need support but definitely not as much support as one would think. He needs wish support but with Alomomola or Chansey, he's great for them. He fills the "Intimidate pivoting, physical attacking, Fairy-type pivot" niche if you ever need such a thing. Am I saying he's amazing? No. But he fits very well on a stall team and definitely pulls his weight against many different teams. He's more of a useful niche than a specific niche, like Arcanine was for Mega Mawile. He checks a bunch of things that can definitely give stall trouble.
Nominating Weezing for D rank again.
Ok I can see why this thing got removed from the viability ranking. I's main niche is that it was one of the most safe counters to Mega Mawile out there and now that it is banned that is irrelevant. However Weezing has the ability to counter another important threat to stall teams, Mega Heracross. Mega Heracross usually 6 - 0's stall teams pretty easily, even moreso than Mega Mawile. Even what could be counters like Skarmory get 2 hit KO'd by CC while Gliscor is used as a setup fodder. However unlike those Weezing actually beats Mega Heracross in most cases. Weezing can switch into every of Heracross his moves as even Rock Blast doesn't 2 hit KO.
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 130-155 (38.9 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
After Weezing has switched in he is free to burn Mega Heracross and hit it with super effective albeit weak Flamethrower's.
252+ Atk burned Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 65-75 (19.4 - 22.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Black Sludge recovery
4 SpA Weezing Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 110-130 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
Weezing also has Pain Split to keep itself at decent health when facing Heracross. Usually it is Weezing switches into Mega Heracross to take a Rock Blast if worst case scenario, Weezing then either burns or uses Pain Split depending on if he ate a Rock Blast or not. Then Weezing just wears down Mega Heracross with Flamethrower, Pain Split and burn damage so it can win against him.
Since Mega Heracross is such a big threat to stall Weezing his niche can be quite useful needed on certain stall teams, however besides that it isn't completely useless. Weezing has a nice typing and it's ability that work well for it, Weezing his stat distribution is also pretty good as Poison types are good for walling most Fighting types. It can still act as a physical wall to other hard to counter threats like Mamoswine and Terrakion which is also useful and it can also spread burns around easily with Will-O-Wisp.
Atmiddetly Weezing is far from perfect though for quite a few reasons. Pain Split is a less than stellar way to recover health whch means you will need a cleric. Now for me this isn't a problem since every stall team ( The only playstyle where you would ever use Weezing ) has a cleric, however it canstill be annoying. There are also a lot of other Pokemon competing for a role as a physical wall like Skarmory, Gliscor, Slowbro and usually these Pokemon are better. Still though Weezing still has a niche in the metagame and I think he deserves to be ranked.
Ok I can see why this thing got removed from the viability ranking. I's main niche is that it was one of the most safe counters to Mega Mawile out there and now that it is banned that is irrelevant. However Weezing has the ability to counter another important threat to stall teams, Mega Heracross. Mega Heracross usually 6 - 0's stall teams pretty easily, even moreso than Mega Mawile. Even what could be counters like Skarmory get 2 hit KO'd by CC while Gliscor is used as a setup fodder. However unlike those Weezing actually beats Mega Heracross in most cases. Weezing can switch into every of Heracross his moves as even Rock Blast doesn't 2 hit KO.
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 130-155 (38.9 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
After Weezing has switched in he is free to burn Mega Heracross and hit it with super effective albeit weak Flamethrower's.
252+ Atk burned Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 65-75 (19.4 - 22.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Black Sludge recovery
4 SpA Weezing Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 110-130 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
Weezing also has Pain Split to keep itself at decent health when facing Heracross. Usually it is Weezing switches into Mega Heracross to take a Rock Blast if worst case scenario, Weezing then either burns or uses Pain Split depending on if he ate a Rock Blast or not. Then Weezing just wears down Mega Heracross with Flamethrower, Pain Split and burn damage so it can win against him.
Since Mega Heracross is such a big threat to stall Weezing his niche can be quite useful needed on certain stall teams, however besides that it isn't completely useless. Weezing has a nice typing and it's ability that work well for it, Weezing his stat distribution is also pretty good as Poison types are good for walling most Fighting types. It can still act as a physical wall to other hard to counter threats like Mamoswine and Terrakion which is also useful and it can also spread burns around easily with Will-O-Wisp.
Atmiddetly Weezing is far from perfect though for quite a few reasons. Pain Split is a less than stellar way to recover health whch means you will need a cleric. Now for me this isn't a problem since every stall team ( The only playstyle where you would ever use Weezing ) has a cleric, however it canstill be annoying. There are also a lot of other Pokemon competing for a role as a physical wall like Skarmory, Gliscor, Slowbro and usually these Pokemon are better. Still though Weezing still has a niche in the metagame and I think he deserves to be ranked.
Alexander., Celebi actually can't check Azumarill because its best set is Assault Vest and it runs Knock Off. Uninvested Giga Drain barely even scratches it.
I also don't think Mega Gardevoir should rise fucking again. It still has a horrible time against offense due to its bulk and is very easy for them to check. Even though it'll kill something, most of the time your opponent is going to choose what's getting KO'd and if you mispredict the switch-in you're really fucked.
I also don't think Mega Gardevoir should rise fucking again. It still has a horrible time against offense due to its bulk and is very easy for them to check. Even though it'll kill something, most of the time your opponent is going to choose what's getting KO'd and if you mispredict the switch-in you're really fucked.
Thunderbolt is useless on Mega Gardevoir, since a neutral Pixilate Hyper Voice almost reaches the same amount of BP and bypasses Substitutes. As pointed out in the V2 thread, running HP Ground on Mega Gardevoir is pointless when Focus Blast hits Heatran for pretty much the same amount of damage and that way it doesn't have to deal with Air Balloon bullshit.
As I've pointed out before, Mega Gardevoir doesn't suffer from 4MSS, since the final moveslot decides what Mega Gardevoir does: with Will-O-Wisp, Mega Scizor is toast; with Taunt, Stall is its bitch and with Calm Mind, it can just about 2HKO or OHKO the whole metagame. Its coverage is good enough between Hyper Voice, Psyshock and Focus Blast. Really, it's quite the opposite of 4MSS; the final moveslot can perfectly be adjusted to whatever the team needs Mega Gardevoir to do.
I doubt you've ever used Mega Gardevoir, since what you're saying really makes no sense.
Also, about Landorus-I: Ice Fang Mega Aerodactyl can deal with it pretty well.
so basically, mega gardy has a 70% chance to get past its counters. and the bulkier ones, such as heatran, can take a focus miss anyway.
I see.
I see.
okay just making a post really quick to dispel a common illusion people seem to be facing: charizard y does not need pursuit support. it's appreciated, but since when has it ever been needed? latios needs to run roost to even have a shot and even then it's probably one of the easier mons to wear down just because there are so many pokemon it wants to handle at once. whats stopping you from just running knock off landorus-i since lati@s are apparently oh-so threatening to it and the undisputed best offensive check to it? saying it absolutely needs pursuit support is a fallacious assumption and about as valid as saying pinsir absolutely needs magnezone support for skarmory or azumarill absolutely needs gothitelle support for mega venusaur and amoonguss. latios and latias are not on every team. if they are, latios doesn't run roost every time and latias has trouble fitting it on too, with there being healing wish and defog and all. that's seriously one of the dumbest and onesided ways to look at a pokemon quite a while and I've read dice's post about moving slowbro down 3 ranks because it "overlaps with lati@s and azumarill in what it counters" because they're apparently really good checks to terrakion and mega gyarados. there's more ways to kill lati@s (and chansey) than just pursuit and anyone implying otherwise is honestly being outright ridiculous.
oh and as for "defog/spin support", that's on every competent team nowadays. every single one of them. if it's not, it's probably the easiest thing to fit on ever. if you can't remove rocks for some reason then charizard doesn't just roll over and die instantly either. it's like people are looking for ways to make charizard look bad jesus lol. it should not move back down to A, its defensive set wasn't more than a fun gimmick for the most part anyway.
more stuff soon just felt the need to chime in on this issue.
oh and as for "defog/spin support", that's on every competent team nowadays. every single one of them. if it's not, it's probably the easiest thing to fit on ever. if you can't remove rocks for some reason then charizard doesn't just roll over and die instantly either. it's like people are looking for ways to make charizard look bad jesus lol. it should not move back down to A, its defensive set wasn't more than a fun gimmick for the most part anyway.
more stuff soon just felt the need to chime in on this issue.
If its physical defense it can pretty easily and I think there is no rly reason to run specially defensive when Keldeo's Specs Hydro Pump does 30-35 and you wall Rotom-W anyway. Some calcs:
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Celebi: 188-222 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Celebi: 126-150 (31.1 - 37.1%) -- 80.7% chance to 3HKO
Which means that between a combination of Giga Drain + Recover Celebi can beat AV Azu in the 1v1 or force it out. I wouldn't call it a counter in any way because Knock Off CB still hurts, but it's definitely a decent check.
Also didnt want to be so rude about Victini. Its defensive set can be useful to check some threat in stall teams and the choice as well some mix ones with something with Glaciate aren't that bad I guess. B rank is fine.
*Focus Blast (Joke's old, please come up with something new.)
And besides, Heatran's not taking a Focus Blast on the switch, since it's KOed by Psyshock afterwards. I'd also like to point out that Mega Gardevoir has no real counters and its best check is Mega Scizor, who's fucked over by Will-O-Wisp. If you've actually read the post on the previous page with the calcs on Mega Gardevoir, you should know Heatran is a shaky check at best. By the way, 70% to beat a counter is better than having a move that only hits one target and leaves it susceptible to many others.
While it may not be technically necessary, it is still something that should be noted when ranking. Hazard support is not a problem like it was before, but an SR weakness as big as Charizard's can't just be ignored like that because you cannot have rocks off your side of the field at any given time and SR damage puts you into KO range for Keldeo, Lati@s, and Greninja.
Ok, time to clear up the low ranks so we can focus on the upper, more important ranks:
Banette (Mega): D ---> Unranked
Sharpedo: D ---> Unranked
Roserade: D ---> Unranked
Seismitoad: C ---> D
Krookodile: C ---> Unranked
Venomoth: C ---> C-
Doublade: D ---> C-
Dugtrio: C- ---> D
Diancie: C ---> C- / D
Exploud: C ---> C-
Tentacruel: Unranked ---> D
Absol (Mega) ---> B- ---> C+
Hawlucha: C ---> C+
Conkeldurr: C+ ---> B-
Torterra: Stays unranked
Pokemon to discuss:
Mew: A ---> A+
Garchomp: A+ ---> A
Mega Charizard X: S ---> A+
Tyranitar (Mega): A+ ---> A
Gyarados (Mega): A+ ---> A
Heracross (Mega): A ---> A+
Gardevoir (Mega): A ---> A+
Venusaur (Mega): A+ ---> A (sand nerfing its healing abilities is the main reason for this, as well as increased competition with Mega Garde, Mega Medi, and Mega Hera for a teamslot)
Ferrothorn: A ---> A+
Hippowdon: A ---> A-
Landorus-T: A ---> A+
Suicune: B+ ---> A-
Raikou: B ---> B+
Manectric (Mega): B ---> B+
Aerodactyl (Mega): B ---> B+
Scizor: B+ ---> B
Manaphy: A- ---> B+
Alakazam (Mega): B ---> B+
Lucario: B ---> B-
Starmie: B ---> B+
Celebi: B- ---> B
Staraptor: B- ---> B
Victini: B ---> B+
Magnezone: B ---> B+
Garchomp (Mega): B+ ---> B
I know that this is a pretty huge list of changes to discuss, but it has to be done. You can post about other rank changes but chances are i will ignore your post because we already have a ton of things in need of discussion and we need some focus. So yeah, let's figure out what to do with this huge ass list before going to other nominations.
EDIT: Forgot to add that Gourgeist dropped to C- and Bronzong rose to C. Gourgeist is not on par with the rest of C Pokemon and Bronzong is better than any C- Pokemon, so this is why this happened.
EDIT 2: Added Mega Garchomp falling to B and Garchomp falling to A in the changes to discuss.
Banette (Mega): D ---> Unranked
Sharpedo: D ---> Unranked
Roserade: D ---> Unranked
Seismitoad: C ---> D
Krookodile: C ---> Unranked
Venomoth: C ---> C-
Doublade: D ---> C-
Dugtrio: C- ---> D
Diancie: C ---> C- / D
Exploud: C ---> C-
Tentacruel: Unranked ---> D
Absol (Mega) ---> B- ---> C+
Hawlucha: C ---> C+
Conkeldurr: C+ ---> B-
Torterra: Stays unranked
Banette (Mega): Good enough for D rank on its own but it takes up your Mega slot, making it completely worthless.
Sharpedo: Hates priority, has a ton of checks everywhere (Ferrothorn, Azumarill, Keldeo, Mega Venusaur, Dragonite, Breloom, Mega Gyarados, Rotom-W, Mega Scizor, Amoonguss), provides zero defensive synergy on a team due to frailty, outclassed at late-game cleaning.
Roserade: Toxic Spikes and Spikes are very easy to remove with Excadrill, Latios, and Latias, all of which beat Rade 1 on 1, and they are not good entry hazards in OU to begin with. Also, Rade is mostly outclassed by other Grass-type in OU, such as Ferro, Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, and Celebi. The only set i could see making Roserade D rank worthy is an offensive set with Leaf Storm / Sludge Bomb / Hidden Power Fire / Sleep Powder and Technician, which is a faster and stronger Mega Venusaur with way less bulk and more weaknesses that doesn't occypy your Mega slot. However, i haven't seen anyone using that set effectively, so until i do, it stays unranked.
Seismitoad: Checking Electric-types is nice, but rain offense usually likes using Ferro, Latios, Mega Amphy, etc anyway, and outside of this Seismitoad is garbage. It can also be an offensive SR setter i guess, but there are way better SR setters as well.
Krookodile: Krookodile is not worth using anymore. Aegislash is gone, Mega Mawile is gone (Krookodile was one of the few offensive Pokemon able tank one +2 Sucker Punch and OHKO back), and the metagame has become much more favorable to Fighting and Fairy-types, as evidenced by the increased usage of Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, and Mega Gardevoir, all of which make Krook's life miserable, and Lando-T / Gliscor always better as far as defensive Ground-types go. There is no reason to use this thing anymore, so off it goes.
Venomoth: QD passing has become way worse with Sand Rush Exca being everywhere, as every single recipient is revenge killed by Excadrill. This, in combination with the support that Venomoth needs to function properly (a team filled with special sweepers and possibly Dual Screens support), and the unreliability of the strategy itself (Sleep Powder misses. revenge killers, sturdy walls with phazing) means that Venomoth is worse than it used to be.
Doublade: Just better than any D rank Pokemon, has a respectable niche on stall teams.
Dugtrio: This thing is worthless and outclassed by every other single trapper in the list, namely Magnezone, Gothitelle, and Wobbuffet. Unless i see some good justification to keep it in D rank, Dugtrio will get removed in a few days.
Diancie: Don't know how to explain this as i haven't used it at all, but everyone who has, told me it sucks ass. Putting it to C- rank for now and may drop it to D, depending on what people post in this thread.
Exploud: The reasoning is simple, Porygon 2 is in C and Exploud is inferior to it. Exploud requires a whole TR team to function where P2 can even function in mini Trick Room cores or as a standalone wall on some defensive teams. Both are Pokemon mainly used on TR teams, but P2 is a must on TR teams where Exploud isn't, and P2 can also be used outside of TR teams, making it much more versatile and effective than Exploud.
Tentacruel: First, Tentacruel can spin reliably thanks to Aegislash leaving. Second, Tentacruel has a good match-up against some common SR users, such as Clefable, Heatran, support Tyranitar, and SR Terrakion. Finally, with a Scald / Rain Dance / Acid Spray / Rapid Spin set it can counter CM Clefable and neuter sand teams by removing sand, giving it a significant niche.
Absol (Mega): This has already been explain, but Mega Absol's low initial Speed, lack of power to OHKO a lot of offensive Pokemon, inability to cover most relevant threat in 4 slots, and frailty mean that it's not worthy of B- rank.
Hawlucha: Hawlucha is an great cleaner and one of the few Speed boosting sweepers able to outspeed and KO Sand Rush Excadrill, which is pretty important. Hawlucha also has great coverage and power after setting up, so cleaning up against offensive teams is not hard at all. However, weakness to priority, difficulty setting up, and the fact that it struggles with physical walls are all very significant flaws that prevent it from being reliable enough for B rank. Oh and relying on High Jump Kick to hit Pokemon that commonly use Protect, such as Heatran and Ferrothorn, is bad too.
Conkeldurr: I didn't account for the increased usage of Mew when dropping Conk to C+, which was my mistake, as Conk is a great offensive response to it, even though Mew can just Knock Off its item and switch into one of the dozen Pokemon that wall it without Guts activated. B- is better when taking into account how big of a threat Mew is becoming.
Torterra: Handling Azumarill, Breloom, and Kabutops is nice, but there are much better Pokemon for this job, and the fact that Torterra lack reliable recovery against sand teams is what seals the deal for me, as being unable to counter Excadrill reliable sucks.
Sharpedo: Hates priority, has a ton of checks everywhere (Ferrothorn, Azumarill, Keldeo, Mega Venusaur, Dragonite, Breloom, Mega Gyarados, Rotom-W, Mega Scizor, Amoonguss), provides zero defensive synergy on a team due to frailty, outclassed at late-game cleaning.
Roserade: Toxic Spikes and Spikes are very easy to remove with Excadrill, Latios, and Latias, all of which beat Rade 1 on 1, and they are not good entry hazards in OU to begin with. Also, Rade is mostly outclassed by other Grass-type in OU, such as Ferro, Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, and Celebi. The only set i could see making Roserade D rank worthy is an offensive set with Leaf Storm / Sludge Bomb / Hidden Power Fire / Sleep Powder and Technician, which is a faster and stronger Mega Venusaur with way less bulk and more weaknesses that doesn't occypy your Mega slot. However, i haven't seen anyone using that set effectively, so until i do, it stays unranked.
Seismitoad: Checking Electric-types is nice, but rain offense usually likes using Ferro, Latios, Mega Amphy, etc anyway, and outside of this Seismitoad is garbage. It can also be an offensive SR setter i guess, but there are way better SR setters as well.
Krookodile: Krookodile is not worth using anymore. Aegislash is gone, Mega Mawile is gone (Krookodile was one of the few offensive Pokemon able tank one +2 Sucker Punch and OHKO back), and the metagame has become much more favorable to Fighting and Fairy-types, as evidenced by the increased usage of Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, and Mega Gardevoir, all of which make Krook's life miserable, and Lando-T / Gliscor always better as far as defensive Ground-types go. There is no reason to use this thing anymore, so off it goes.
Venomoth: QD passing has become way worse with Sand Rush Exca being everywhere, as every single recipient is revenge killed by Excadrill. This, in combination with the support that Venomoth needs to function properly (a team filled with special sweepers and possibly Dual Screens support), and the unreliability of the strategy itself (Sleep Powder misses. revenge killers, sturdy walls with phazing) means that Venomoth is worse than it used to be.
Doublade: Just better than any D rank Pokemon, has a respectable niche on stall teams.
Dugtrio: This thing is worthless and outclassed by every other single trapper in the list, namely Magnezone, Gothitelle, and Wobbuffet. Unless i see some good justification to keep it in D rank, Dugtrio will get removed in a few days.
Diancie: Don't know how to explain this as i haven't used it at all, but everyone who has, told me it sucks ass. Putting it to C- rank for now and may drop it to D, depending on what people post in this thread.
Exploud: The reasoning is simple, Porygon 2 is in C and Exploud is inferior to it. Exploud requires a whole TR team to function where P2 can even function in mini Trick Room cores or as a standalone wall on some defensive teams. Both are Pokemon mainly used on TR teams, but P2 is a must on TR teams where Exploud isn't, and P2 can also be used outside of TR teams, making it much more versatile and effective than Exploud.
Tentacruel: First, Tentacruel can spin reliably thanks to Aegislash leaving. Second, Tentacruel has a good match-up against some common SR users, such as Clefable, Heatran, support Tyranitar, and SR Terrakion. Finally, with a Scald / Rain Dance / Acid Spray / Rapid Spin set it can counter CM Clefable and neuter sand teams by removing sand, giving it a significant niche.
Absol (Mega): This has already been explain, but Mega Absol's low initial Speed, lack of power to OHKO a lot of offensive Pokemon, inability to cover most relevant threat in 4 slots, and frailty mean that it's not worthy of B- rank.
Hawlucha: Hawlucha is an great cleaner and one of the few Speed boosting sweepers able to outspeed and KO Sand Rush Excadrill, which is pretty important. Hawlucha also has great coverage and power after setting up, so cleaning up against offensive teams is not hard at all. However, weakness to priority, difficulty setting up, and the fact that it struggles with physical walls are all very significant flaws that prevent it from being reliable enough for B rank. Oh and relying on High Jump Kick to hit Pokemon that commonly use Protect, such as Heatran and Ferrothorn, is bad too.
Conkeldurr: I didn't account for the increased usage of Mew when dropping Conk to C+, which was my mistake, as Conk is a great offensive response to it, even though Mew can just Knock Off its item and switch into one of the dozen Pokemon that wall it without Guts activated. B- is better when taking into account how big of a threat Mew is becoming.
Torterra: Handling Azumarill, Breloom, and Kabutops is nice, but there are much better Pokemon for this job, and the fact that Torterra lack reliable recovery against sand teams is what seals the deal for me, as being unable to counter Excadrill reliable sucks.
Mew: A ---> A+
Garchomp: A+ ---> A
Mega Charizard X: S ---> A+
Tyranitar (Mega): A+ ---> A
Gyarados (Mega): A+ ---> A
Heracross (Mega): A ---> A+
Gardevoir (Mega): A ---> A+
Venusaur (Mega): A+ ---> A (sand nerfing its healing abilities is the main reason for this, as well as increased competition with Mega Garde, Mega Medi, and Mega Hera for a teamslot)
Ferrothorn: A ---> A+
Hippowdon: A ---> A-
Landorus-T: A ---> A+
Suicune: B+ ---> A-
Raikou: B ---> B+
Manectric (Mega): B ---> B+
Aerodactyl (Mega): B ---> B+
Scizor: B+ ---> B
Manaphy: A- ---> B+
Alakazam (Mega): B ---> B+
Lucario: B ---> B-
Starmie: B ---> B+
Celebi: B- ---> B
Staraptor: B- ---> B
Victini: B ---> B+
Magnezone: B ---> B+
Garchomp (Mega): B+ ---> B
I know that this is a pretty huge list of changes to discuss, but it has to be done. You can post about other rank changes but chances are i will ignore your post because we already have a ton of things in need of discussion and we need some focus. So yeah, let's figure out what to do with this huge ass list before going to other nominations.
EDIT: Forgot to add that Gourgeist dropped to C- and Bronzong rose to C. Gourgeist is not on par with the rest of C Pokemon and Bronzong is better than any C- Pokemon, so this is why this happened.
EDIT 2: Added Mega Garchomp falling to B and Garchomp falling to A in the changes to discuss.
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oh it definitely shouldn't be ignored, but people are acting like stealth rock is the end-all to every charizard y. like, they're acting as if stealth rocks are up and charizard switches into them it just automatically dies. of course stealth rocks hinder it but people are really overstating how much it cripples charizard and how much "support" defog really is compared to some other forms of support. it's annoying and definitely its biggest issue, but that's why it's A+ and not S rank. it's A+ because you get a LOT out of providing that, comparatively, small amount of support it requires, especially with mega gardevoir/heracross/medicham and a lot of other trends having a hard time dealing with charizard y at all. hell, I'd argue that pretty much every other mega in A+ (except Venusaur who is a form of support himself really) and maybe even charizard X needs just as much support as charizard Y, if not more.
Speaking of Pursuit, I'm nominating Weavile for B+. It can't switch on anything, but it's really the only Pursuit user bar ScarfTar able to trap Lati@s, and when paired with Keldeo it can trap a Greninja that used Extrasensory and changed it's type to Psychic. On top of that, Weavile got a great buff with the Mega Mawile ban, meaning it no longer becomes free set up bait. Then there's stuff like being the fastest Knock Off abuser with STAB on it, a great dragon slayer if you can't fit Mamoswine on your team, and Low Kick to threaten Tyranitar, Heatran and Terrakion.
I also disagree with Manaphy dropping. Tail Glow sets can be a huge pain in the ass to stall, especially if Chansey is weakened. Manaphy can also do decent work against offense as it has excellent 100 / 100 / 100 bulk. It has trouble with Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn (although it can ohko the latter with +3 HP Fire) but other than that, it's very hard to counter. Keep Manaphy A-
I also disagree with Manaphy dropping. Tail Glow sets can be a huge pain in the ass to stall, especially if Chansey is weakened. Manaphy can also do decent work against offense as it has excellent 100 / 100 / 100 bulk. It has trouble with Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn (although it can ohko the latter with +3 HP Fire) but other than that, it's very hard to counter. Keep Manaphy A-
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That's a lot of conditions for a B+ pokemon...
I totaly agree with Srn on Chary to stay in A+. Yes, it wants quite alot of support, without Pursuit and Defog/Rapid spin support it isnt going to work all that well. But if you provide the support its just incredibly powerful. Not only that its so hard to switch into it, it also beats so much stuff 1on1. Lando-I, Keldeo, Greninja, Non AV Azu, Garde, Hera, Gyara and every steal type in the tier. With rocks removed its also extremely easy to switch in as many things cant realy touch it like Mega Scizor, Mew, Clefable, Suicune, defensive mons in general and with bulk investment even Lando-I. As a lead hes a nobrainer because he can force out so many mons and hits hard no matter what comes in.
With Mews massive rise in usage and viability there are 2 more reasons to use it, the first is that its one of the few things that can handle mew well and the second is that mew is such an amazing defoger making it soooo much easier to keep hazards of the field. Its not pursuit bait like the Latis, not weak to SR like Zapdos and Mandy and is acutally useful outside of Defog unlike Skarm. Slap Bisharp and Mew on the team and any team is hardpressed to deal with Chary and its not like those 2 are bad in their own right.
That beeing said i agree with Mew for A+. He is simply amazing as a Stallbreaker and Defogger and many teams struggle alot to take it down. It can also beat so much in the meta, starting with all kinds of defensiv mons as well as many offensive threats due to wow and its solid special bulk (it avoids the 2hko from timid Mega Gardes Hypervoice and Lando-Is Earthpower).
I also think that Mega Scizor should move back up to A+. He might not be the most amazing sweeper out there but he is a solid check/counter to lots of things like Azumaril, Terrakion, Excadrill and most other physical attackers that dont have fire coverage. Beeing able to set up on Azumaril is quite a feat and with so much things to set up on he can become very difficult to deal with once Heatran and his other counters are gone. Beeing the only save switch in for Mega Garde is another notable thing.
/edit after seeing the discussion list from Alexwolf:
Suicune deserves A- imo and should move up, he is very difficult to deal with for most teams and is basicly a wall, statusabsorber and win condition in one mon.
Charizard X, Mega Gyara, and Mega Venu should stay in their respective ranks. The 3 DD megas are still very dangerous sweepers and hard to deal with. Chari X also has its WoW set in addition to DD screwing up most of his normal counters and making it a perfect choice for balanced and more defensive teams.
Gyarados is lacking power compared to the other 2 but his ability to run taunt and his bulk compensate for that. Its always nice to DD on something he can force out, taunt skarm when he comes in, and then go for +2 before sweeping the opponents team.
Mega Venu is a bit handycapd with sand up but with Giga Drain and its massiv bulk it can still hold its own against sand rush teams. Not to mention how much stuff it can check/counter overall.
With Mews massive rise in usage and viability there are 2 more reasons to use it, the first is that its one of the few things that can handle mew well and the second is that mew is such an amazing defoger making it soooo much easier to keep hazards of the field. Its not pursuit bait like the Latis, not weak to SR like Zapdos and Mandy and is acutally useful outside of Defog unlike Skarm. Slap Bisharp and Mew on the team and any team is hardpressed to deal with Chary and its not like those 2 are bad in their own right.
That beeing said i agree with Mew for A+. He is simply amazing as a Stallbreaker and Defogger and many teams struggle alot to take it down. It can also beat so much in the meta, starting with all kinds of defensiv mons as well as many offensive threats due to wow and its solid special bulk (it avoids the 2hko from timid Mega Gardes Hypervoice and Lando-Is Earthpower).
I also think that Mega Scizor should move back up to A+. He might not be the most amazing sweeper out there but he is a solid check/counter to lots of things like Azumaril, Terrakion, Excadrill and most other physical attackers that dont have fire coverage. Beeing able to set up on Azumaril is quite a feat and with so much things to set up on he can become very difficult to deal with once Heatran and his other counters are gone. Beeing the only save switch in for Mega Garde is another notable thing.
/edit after seeing the discussion list from Alexwolf:
Suicune deserves A- imo and should move up, he is very difficult to deal with for most teams and is basicly a wall, statusabsorber and win condition in one mon.
Charizard X, Mega Gyara, and Mega Venu should stay in their respective ranks. The 3 DD megas are still very dangerous sweepers and hard to deal with. Chari X also has its WoW set in addition to DD screwing up most of his normal counters and making it a perfect choice for balanced and more defensive teams.
Gyarados is lacking power compared to the other 2 but his ability to run taunt and his bulk compensate for that. Its always nice to DD on something he can force out, taunt skarm when he comes in, and then go for +2 before sweeping the opponents team.
Mega Venu is a bit handycapd with sand up but with Giga Drain and its massiv bulk it can still hold its own against sand rush teams. Not to mention how much stuff it can check/counter overall.
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Yeah Mega zam to b+ is a no brainer to me imo.
Amazing speed and special attack just makes this guy really strong against both offense and defense, and basically everything in between. Only scarfers (not tar), mega man, and sand rush exca can even outspeed and sand rush exca is jsut revenge killed (!!!!!) by zam on the switch-in; this is without priority and bulk as well.
Standard set is basically just Psychic/Focus Blast/Shadow ball/ and then some random support filler move which really makes zam shine. Sub is stupidly good against offense, honestly a mega zam behind a sub is just gg to most HO. Taunt is fantastic against balanced and stall teams, as zam can take some slightly weaker hits whilst preventing healing (looking at you chansey) and still throw around gigantic attacks coming off of 175 base special attack.
Bulk is where things start to get bad, but honestly, mega zam just shouldn't be taking any hits anyways. It plays kinda like mega medicham, just weaker but a fuckton faster. Against offense it just comes in against something slower (90% of the meta) and revenge kills with psychic or following coverage. Against stall just get it in for free and throw around attacks to weaken whilst taunting to prevent healing and just switch out against chansey :P
We haven't even gotten into the utility trace offers yet. Mega zam becomes the ultimate revenge killer against weather teams (bar kabu's jet), cleanly OHKO'ing excadrill with a focus blast and only needing 15%~ residual to kill kingdra. Tracing protean really makes this thing pretty scary, especially since you (obviously) revenge kill greninja, but man tracing sheer force from landorus is just soo ridiculously powerful. As an additional buff, bisharp's heavy decline in usage and mega mawile's ban basically eliminates sucker punch out of the equation, meaning that CB talon is really the only priority mega zam has to be scared of.
Mega zam even wins 1v1 vs thundurus, you can switch in to trace prankster and avoid the t-wave by taunting or subbing down and then killing. It kills so much of the HO meta with a simple psychic after just rocks and sand damage, its incredibly strong.
TL; DR mega zam is good against both offense and defense and has some great utility in trace; B+ ez
Amazing speed and special attack just makes this guy really strong against both offense and defense, and basically everything in between. Only scarfers (not tar), mega man, and sand rush exca can even outspeed and sand rush exca is jsut revenge killed (!!!!!) by zam on the switch-in; this is without priority and bulk as well.
Standard set is basically just Psychic/Focus Blast/Shadow ball/ and then some random support filler move which really makes zam shine. Sub is stupidly good against offense, honestly a mega zam behind a sub is just gg to most HO. Taunt is fantastic against balanced and stall teams, as zam can take some slightly weaker hits whilst preventing healing (looking at you chansey) and still throw around gigantic attacks coming off of 175 base special attack.
Bulk is where things start to get bad, but honestly, mega zam just shouldn't be taking any hits anyways. It plays kinda like mega medicham, just weaker but a fuckton faster. Against offense it just comes in against something slower (90% of the meta) and revenge kills with psychic or following coverage. Against stall just get it in for free and throw around attacks to weaken whilst taunting to prevent healing and just switch out against chansey :P
We haven't even gotten into the utility trace offers yet. Mega zam becomes the ultimate revenge killer against weather teams (bar kabu's jet), cleanly OHKO'ing excadrill with a focus blast and only needing 15%~ residual to kill kingdra. Tracing protean really makes this thing pretty scary, especially since you (obviously) revenge kill greninja, but man tracing sheer force from landorus is just soo ridiculously powerful. As an additional buff, bisharp's heavy decline in usage and mega mawile's ban basically eliminates sucker punch out of the equation, meaning that CB talon is really the only priority mega zam has to be scared of.
Mega zam even wins 1v1 vs thundurus, you can switch in to trace prankster and avoid the t-wave by taunting or subbing down and then killing. It kills so much of the HO meta with a simple psychic after just rocks and sand damage, its incredibly strong.
TL; DR mega zam is good against both offense and defense and has some great utility in trace; B+ ez
MVenu should not drop. It's still pretty much the best glue there is besides maybe Azumarill, and although it has trouble with Sand Offense and Magnesir, both of which are really popular atm, the sheer amount of stuff it's able to deal with still makes it well worthy of A+. For starters, it's a solid anwser to 3 out of the 5 S-ranks besides lure moves like HP Flying or Jolly BD Return (lol), and if you go down the list you'll find a large amount of stuff it's able to keep in check namely MGyara, Clefable, Rotom-W Breloom, Ferrothorn, etc. It's also a fantastic anwser to Water types that are becoming increasingly common in this metagame. MVenu is able to cover weaknesses to really big threats, which makes it a very good pick on a lot of teams and easily A+ worthy.
Once again, I'd like to nominate Crawdaunt => B- from C+
The only thing taking Crawdaunt on stall is Chesnaught. Everything else can be obliterated by 2 moves. Remember how I said Azumarill was the only thing switching in on offense?
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-209 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I was wrong... nothing except for Chesnaught. Crawdaunt is frail and slow, but get this thing in safely and not even resists are switching in.
I also agree with Suicune => A- aaaaand Staraptor => B
The only thing taking Crawdaunt on stall is Chesnaught. Everything else can be obliterated by 2 moves. Remember how I said Azumarill was the only thing switching in on offense?
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-209 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I was wrong... nothing except for Chesnaught. Crawdaunt is frail and slow, but get this thing in safely and not even resists are switching in.
I also agree with Suicune => A- aaaaand Staraptor => B
Going from unranked to B- is a pretty sharp increase if you ask me. I won't argue Forretress' worth in OU (I'll let others do that), but I'm just saying that you should take baby steps when nominating an unranked Pokemon. C- sounds like a good start.Nominating Forretress to be moved from unranked--->B-
Forretress is yet another mon that has become alot more effective with the banning of Aegislash. Ghost types are virtually non-existent in the current metagame, making spinning for Forretress not too difficult in most scenarios.
I also have always found most players utilizing Forretress incorrectly by not spamming the living shit out of volt switch to in pursuit of gaining offensive momentum. Yes, rapid spinning and hazards are the primary reason for using this mon but the pure amount of mons that can safely switch into Forretress make volt switch amazing on it when used on more offensive-oriented, or even balanced teams.
Forretress is a great utility mon that is no longer unviable in XY OU and believe it should be firmly sitting in B-
That's more of a reference point for me so I won't have to keep scrolling back and forth. So I'll speak on the stuff I know of for sure. Anyways...
Mew A -> A+ I'll admit, every time I've used Mew I seem to be absolutely terrible at using it. However it doesn't change the fact that I've seen this thing put in a ridiculous amount of work in games around solid cores by more competent players. Very efficient stall breaker, solid bulk allows it to check a number of offensive threats, and if necessary it has other tools to work with that can help the team function more from an offensive or defensive perspective. I'm for this moving up.Already went into detail on Char X so just going to repost it here.
CharX S -> S Ok so while I do agree that Zard X has gotten worse as the meta has changed in the past several months, I don't agree with these particular statements to the point that it should drop to A+. One of the main common traits that the S ranked tier members hold is their ability to adapt to the meta game and or are able to cater its particular move set to suit the individual mons needs or the teams need. The only check I feel is consistent is Sand Offense, which we all know requires two mons to accomplish this, Sand Setter + Excadrill. The fact that two mons are forced to handle one single variant of its set shows that CharX is still a threat in the meta game. With this being said every other "check" is handled with a simple move variation or minimal support by Char X's teammates, which is a basic necessity of any mon, no different than that of the S ranked mons believe it or not. The notable flaws of Charizard X are mitigated by the previous points mentioned, its fantastic typing which contributes to its defensive traits in the form of Roost and Will-O-Wisp in particular, and the fact that new sets are coming into play just shows Char X's ability to adapt to such a hostile environment. Even with all of these traits taken into consideration, somehow it's less effective? To a degree as the time has passed yes, but to the level of A+, I can't agree with that.
Already talked about Suicune moving up in an old post on like page 2.
I advocated Celebi earlier so I'll repost it here. I think B is more appropriate but I don't mind B+ cause maybe I'm missing that it's even more effective than what I'm making it out to be.
Celebi B- -> B I think Celebi is underrated. Like it's not the greatest of great, but I think Celebi excels in the OU environment primarily as a solid support mon. It has a good pool of options such as Thunder Wave to help slow down some faster threats, makes for a decent SR setter, Status absorber with Natural Cure and has access to some clerical options such as Healing Wish which as we all know is pretty damn nice. It's actually got a decent scarf set that allows it to check a plethora of things such as Lando-I, Keldeo, Greninja, + 1 M-Gyarados, the usual stuff a base 100 speed tier mon can revenge kill. Trick's also nice to help stall break a bit or just screw something over if using the set. Keldeo and Lando-I checks are always in high demand anyways and I think it deserves a bump up at this point in time when I consider how the meta is right now.
Everything else I have no opinion on either due to experience from using it or because I think the placement is fine where I don't need to state an opinion on it.
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Nominating Forretress to be moved from unranked--->B-
Forretress is yet another mon that has become alot more effective with the banning of Aegislash. Ghost types are virtually non-existent in the current metagame, making spinning for Forretress not too difficult in most scenarios.
I also have always found most players utilizing Forretress incorrectly by not spamming the living shit out of volt switch to in pursuit of gaining offensive momentum. Yes, rapid spinning and hazards are the primary reason for using this mon but the pure amount of mons that can safely switch into Forretress make volt switch amazing on it when used on more offensive-oriented, or even balanced teams.
Forretress is a great utility mon that is no longer unviable in XY OU and believe it should be firmly sitting in B-
Imo Forretress shouldnt be ranked, especially not that high. Its just sub par in every way. No offensive presence what so ever, i mean even Greninja takes less than 40% from volt switch. Groundtypes like Garchomp and Lando can come in on it for absolute free, block the volt switch and do what ever they want. There are so many hazard removers around in the tier and every single one of them is a million times better than forretress. Spinning and setting up rocks is kind of a niche i guess but there are other, better mons with that ability and even if there wasnt, it would not compensate for Forretress flaws.
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