actually, it was more like he didn't expect naughty scarf mence(only scarf mence imo)and didn't play according to the fact that mence was naughty natured.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
Hydreigon==> Unranked
Hydreigon is garbage in the current metagame. Its completely eclipsed by Lati@s, as its slower, lacks defog, and has a worse defensive typing, is easily checked by some of the best pokemon in the tier (Clefable, Azumarill, Lati@s, Garchomp, keldeo, etc.) and its honestly a fairly shitty wallbreaker due to the fact that its walled by both clefable and azumarill as well as its main STAB move lowering its special attack by 2 stages. It really does not have a notable niche thats makes it worth using over other Dragon-Types such as Lati@s and Mega Garchomp.
Salamence should also be unranked for the reasons WECAMEASROMANS mentioned in his earlier post.
Hydreigon is garbage in the current metagame. Its completely eclipsed by Lati@s, as its slower, lacks defog, and has a worse defensive typing, is easily checked by some of the best pokemon in the tier (Clefable, Azumarill, Lati@s, Garchomp, keldeo, etc.) and its honestly a fairly shitty wallbreaker due to the fact that its walled by both clefable and azumarill as well as its main STAB move lowering its special attack by 2 stages. It really does not have a notable niche thats makes it worth using over other Dragon-Types such as Lati@s and Mega Garchomp.
Salamence should also be unranked for the reasons WECAMEASROMANS mentioned in his earlier post.
me and jukain were discussion this earlier, and we thought it's a pretty terrible pokemon due its main niche being removed after the aegi / mawile bans, but we tried to find a way to use this to victimise the plethora of psychic-types on balance teams (mew, jirachi, slowbro, celebi, etc). it's pretty bad though but it could definitely have some use on a competent team.
Lol, Salamence gets pretty fucked by Fairy types.
Seriously, Albacore is a good player, and even though I never battled him, I know he's good. Sure, the. MoxieScarf combo is good, but with your plays (Staying in on Lando after Intimidate and staying in with Gyara with Mag out when you could of switched to mag...) menace really saved you. Since Mence is by no means a threat, even with that ScarfMoxie set, Albacore didn't think carrying a Mence counter was necessary. Although I think he should replace Breloom or something for Azu, Fairys aren't necessary on every team.
Don't wanna sound like a dick, but you shouldn't say Mence was good to a Mence weak team.
Also, there is no way Salamence is as good as any of the C- rank pokemon. I'd rather nominate sunkern to C-
if anything this just shows how good mence is (compared to other d ranks) because it saved my ass that game
also dragmag teams completely overload fairy types, they get reduced to kill range in next to no time.
also, if you look at the rest of d rank(whimsicott, blissey, jellicent, granbull and tons of other shit i wouldn't ever consider using on a serious team) you'll see that mence is nowhere near as bad as they are.
I too think Victini deserves A-. I was testing out the pup sub set and it's really stupidly good. The only 100% reliable answers to it are Zard X, Quagsire and Rhyperior. Alexwolf's post on the creative sets victory road thread has all the details on it so I'm not going to make this a long post. If they hadn't came up with this set I would think B+ is fine but this new set just adds a whole new level of versatility.
I've actually had extreme troubles with d rank pokemon. Not Mence, Mence was always easy to me. Whimsicott is a HUGE threat so some of my teams cause it's so damn annoying. Blissey is an overrated Chansey, but it's still like Chansey... And Granbull is also p fucking annoying.
It's funny how people focus on just countering A and B rank pokemon when they are easily hurt by d rank pokemon, in this case albacore was weak to Mence.
All in all, Mence is definetly underestimated, but it's still not good. I think it should stay in d.
Whilst Pokemon like Whimsicott and Granbull are annoying, they are by no means threats. Their jobs involve countering specific Pokemon which may not be found on every team, making them more of a liability in certain match ups. Salamence is capable of sweeping when given the right support. It at least belongs in the same leagues as Haxorus, so I agree with pushing Salamence to C-
First of all he didn't play it badly, identifying the only 2 checks to Salamence and weakening them enough such that mence can clean up is pretty much how DragSpam is supposed to work. Secondly did you just imply that a Pokemon needs to be able to sweep a team that contains its counter to be C- rank worthy? (last time I checked Keldeo cannot sweep a team that contains its counter) And even considering Albacore didn't carry a check to mence, the fact that mence can clean up a team when given enough support is a testament of its ability. C- is pretty fine for it.
But either is fine at the end of the day, don't really have much of an opinion on it. Mostly just wanted to point out the flawed arguments. And I just feeel like supporting the side with fewer flawed arguments. (even though that's pretty fallacious too)
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WECAMEASROMANS made a very good point in that there's no reason to use Scarf Salamence when better Dragon Scarfers exist who do better with about the same amount of support. I'd rather use Scarf Garchomp, Scarf Kyurem-B, or Band Dragonite for late-game Outrage shenanigans since they can do shit early- or mid-game much more efficiently.
Turn 5: He gave up a free Spore against Haxorus since Breloom's Sash was still intact.
Turn 7: Went for SR when it wasn't that important when U-turn was a win-win.
Turn 10: Sent in Lando so it couldn't Intimidate Salamence or Azumarill anymore since it would die after switching into SR again. This probably cost him the game.
He might have not played badly, but his opponent did.
Turn 5: He gave up a free Spore against Haxorus since Breloom's Sash was still intact.
Turn 7: Went for SR when it wasn't that important when U-turn was a win-win.
Turn 10: Sent in Lando so it couldn't Intimidate Salamence or Azumarill anymore since it would die after switching into SR again. This probably cost him the game.
Oh yeah that battle. Yeah, I did play pretty badly all things considered (forgot Haxorus resisted Bullet Seed and didn't Mach Punch it instead fsr, must've confused it with Garchomp lol, couldn't spore it b/c lum berry so I at least got that right, and I honestly thought Mag would live DClaw from that range) but at the time I didn't know people were going to be discussing it to great length like this. Please stop putting it under such scrutiny, it's just one battle and I wasn't really thinking.
In the light of all that has been said, I agree with Doubalde moving to C+. Yes, it's kinda deadweight outside of beating a pool of around 10 Pokemon, but these 10 Pokemon are so hugely treatening to Stall that Doublade has pretty much become a necessity for many teams.
In the light of all that has been said, I agree with Doubalde moving to C+. Yes, it's kinda deadweight outside of beating a pool of around 10 Pokemon, but these 10 Pokemon are so hugely treatening to Stall that Doublade has pretty much become a necessity for many teams.
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Doublade is a ghost type and cannot be trapped by Shadow Tag / Magnet Pull / Arena Trap. You can only trap it via Pursuit.
We are moving Doublade to C+, and people know why. It has a very strong niche, but why is C+ seen as a bad ranking. The thing is, it's not. Things with a very strong niche used on handful of select teams whould use C+ 'mons, and we need to express that. These changes need to happen.
What should leave C+ Rank right now and what should stay?
Mega Absol and Mega Aggron need to be bumped down. Mega Absol was solid B Rank in the past because it completely demolished HO Deoxys-D / Bisharp / Aegislash + Mega 'Mon core and it's ability Magic Bounce let it safely MEvo on it because it could set up on Deo-D. The mixed set was an amazing lure as well with Mega Scizor, Genesect, and all those Steel-types all over the place. Sucker Punch and Knock Off were so good at the time as well, but sadly the metagame changed drastically. The lure set lost effectiveness - things it beat became less popular aka Mega Scizor. Things got banned and Azumarill increased in usage. B to B- to C+, and even then, it is not at the level as other C+ 'mons nor even C 'mons! C- Rank imo. Also, the question WECAMEASROMANS said. Why would I use Mega Aggron when Rhyperior is available? Drop it to C Rank. Shuckle, Goodra, and Crawdaunt are fine. They are super useful. Shuckle is the reason why sticky Web Offense is threatening. Crawdaunt is the best Trick Room 'mon available and demolishes stall without the use of a mega slot like Mega Heracross, but has bad bulk and super slow + bad typing which is why Mega Heracross is used. Goodra is a nice tank. Can pivot around on strong special attackers not to mention Mega Charizard Y became really popular.
Not giving a reaso because I am lazy, but Baton Pass gone now, and Espeon outside of Trol Pass which is non existent is garbage. It should drop or be unlisted. Sylveon and Togekiss will be bumped up, so lets ignore that. Smeargle is obviously fine. I am neutral 'bout klefki
Then what is C+ Rank material?
Doublade: super strong niche on stall teams. Can beat non FPunch Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, can take Mega Gardevoir here and there. Really strong niche. c+
Empoleon: underrated but it checks so many powerful threats in the metagame: Greninja, Lati@s, Azumarill, Heatran, Mega Gardeovoir, and nonSP Mega Scizor non-cm clefable. Note that all these threats are A Rank higher. It can either SR or Defog (both together sucks pls dont use it) or it can nuke something with Modest, Specs 11 SpA HPump or do massive damage Scald while possibly fishing a burn. It beats Clefable too actually because of Flash Cannon, but i didn't run that on main list because thats only if your specs. otherwise, clef sets up with cm on the sr set. but specs beats it. super strong niche. no reliable recovery and being screwed by eq + thundy sucks but it is C+ Rank worthy
2 things i am thinking about moving to c+, gastrodon + mienshao. i havent used kung fu enough to justify it but i would be ok with c+. gastro im leaning more v. c then c+ because empoleon genrally has better typing that checks more things and mostly deadly things and gastro cant really do anything against the things it check unlike empoleon which can destroy them ex. ice beam v. latios, flash v. clef + weakened azu, scald v. tran etc.
What needs to be unlisted / D Rank?
Venomoth should leave the thread. It is 90% outclassed by smeargle and gorebyss which can pass better boost. if you want a strong special attacker, np bp togekiss works really well. not the best bp mon atm. plus bp is non existent so it loses niche on those teams.
Ludicolo should leave as well. rain teams dont have the room for ludicolo and even if they did, kingdra is a superior choice. seismitoad is also a way better swift swim alternative over ludicolo if you have room because it laughs at priority thunder wave. plus it gets wrecked by talon and mega pinsir which is horrible
slowking lol, d rank / unlisted
gourgeist: unlist. why would you use this thing anyways? there is a spinblocker called sableye which can burn exca before it does crap back. plus sableye is so much more useful. buly grass? mega venu, ammoonguss, chesnaught, etc.
blissey: lol has been discussed needs to leave
blastoise mega: way more useful in early xy. drop to D rank / c-
The C Rank is being clustered with useless 'mons which people barely use. We need to pay attention to things that deserve to be ranke d because the are used enough to justify there use on slect team for c and c- rank.
What should leave C+ Rank right now and what should stay?
Mega Absol and Mega Aggron need to be bumped down. Mega Absol was solid B Rank in the past because it completely demolished HO Deoxys-D / Bisharp / Aegislash + Mega 'Mon core and it's ability Magic Bounce let it safely MEvo on it because it could set up on Deo-D. The mixed set was an amazing lure as well with Mega Scizor, Genesect, and all those Steel-types all over the place. Sucker Punch and Knock Off were so good at the time as well, but sadly the metagame changed drastically. The lure set lost effectiveness - things it beat became less popular aka Mega Scizor. Things got banned and Azumarill increased in usage. B to B- to C+, and even then, it is not at the level as other C+ 'mons nor even C 'mons! C- Rank imo. Also, the question WECAMEASROMANS said. Why would I use Mega Aggron when Rhyperior is available? Drop it to C Rank. Shuckle, Goodra, and Crawdaunt are fine. They are super useful. Shuckle is the reason why sticky Web Offense is threatening. Crawdaunt is the best Trick Room 'mon available and demolishes stall without the use of a mega slot like Mega Heracross, but has bad bulk and super slow + bad typing which is why Mega Heracross is used. Goodra is a nice tank. Can pivot around on strong special attackers not to mention Mega Charizard Y became really popular.
Not giving a reaso because I am lazy, but Baton Pass gone now, and Espeon outside of Trol Pass which is non existent is garbage. It should drop or be unlisted. Sylveon and Togekiss will be bumped up, so lets ignore that. Smeargle is obviously fine. I am neutral 'bout klefki
Then what is C+ Rank material?
Doublade: super strong niche on stall teams. Can beat non FPunch Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, can take Mega Gardevoir here and there. Really strong niche. c+
Empoleon: underrated but it checks so many powerful threats in the metagame: Greninja, Lati@s, Azumarill, Heatran, Mega Gardeovoir, and nonSP Mega Scizor non-cm clefable. Note that all these threats are A Rank higher. It can either SR or Defog (both together sucks pls dont use it) or it can nuke something with Modest, Specs 11 SpA HPump or do massive damage Scald while possibly fishing a burn. It beats Clefable too actually because of Flash Cannon, but i didn't run that on main list because thats only if your specs. otherwise, clef sets up with cm on the sr set. but specs beats it. super strong niche. no reliable recovery and being screwed by eq + thundy sucks but it is C+ Rank worthy
2 things i am thinking about moving to c+, gastrodon + mienshao. i havent used kung fu enough to justify it but i would be ok with c+. gastro im leaning more v. c then c+ because empoleon genrally has better typing that checks more things and mostly deadly things and gastro cant really do anything against the things it check unlike empoleon which can destroy them ex. ice beam v. latios, flash v. clef + weakened azu, scald v. tran etc.
What needs to be unlisted / D Rank?
Venomoth should leave the thread. It is 90% outclassed by smeargle and gorebyss which can pass better boost. if you want a strong special attacker, np bp togekiss works really well. not the best bp mon atm. plus bp is non existent so it loses niche on those teams.
Ludicolo should leave as well. rain teams dont have the room for ludicolo and even if they did, kingdra is a superior choice. seismitoad is also a way better swift swim alternative over ludicolo if you have room because it laughs at priority thunder wave. plus it gets wrecked by talon and mega pinsir which is horrible
slowking lol, d rank / unlisted
gourgeist: unlist. why would you use this thing anyways? there is a spinblocker called sableye which can burn exca before it does crap back. plus sableye is so much more useful. buly grass? mega venu, ammoonguss, chesnaught, etc.
blissey: lol has been discussed needs to leave
blastoise mega: way more useful in early xy. drop to D rank / c-
The C Rank is being clustered with useless 'mons which people barely use. We need to pay attention to things that deserve to be ranke d because the are used enough to justify there use on slect team for c and c- rank.
C+ Rank
Shuckle
Ditto
Crawdaunt
Empoleon
Doublade
Goodra
Klefki
Infernape
C Rank
Mega Absol
Mega Aggron
Chandelure
Alakazam
Porygon2
Thundurus-T
Volcarona
Wobbefutt
C- Rank
really know one uses things here (except mantine which should be C but im not going to talk because it is conclusion reached) or below bar they are troll lol
Sylveon, Togekiss go to B- Rank.
Shuckle
Ditto
Crawdaunt
Empoleon
Doublade
Goodra
Klefki
Infernape
C Rank
Mega Absol
Mega Aggron
Chandelure
Alakazam
Porygon2
Thundurus-T
Volcarona
Wobbefutt
C- Rank
really know one uses things here (except mantine which should be C but im not going to talk because it is conclusion reached) or below bar they are troll lol
Sylveon, Togekiss go to B- Rank.
Update time:
Mega Houndoom: C ---> C+
Mega Absol: C+ ---> C
Doublade: C ---> C+
Blissey: Stays in D
Ferrothorn: A+ ---> A
Landorus-T: Stays in A+
Magnezone: B+ ---> A-
Landorus: S ---> A+
Breloom: A- ---> B+
Mandibuzz: B+ ---> B
Salamence: Stays in D
Tangrowth: C- ---> C
Celebi: B ---> B+
Politoed: B+ ---> A-
Sylveon: C+ ---> B-
Espeon: C+ ---> C
Smeargle: C+ ---> C
Mega Aggron: C+ ---> C
Lanturn: Unranked ---> D
Changes that need more discussion (changes that have been supported but haven't had a lot of talk or are controversial)
Victini: B+ ---> A-
This got a lot of support, with SubPuP getting more common and everything, which functions a lot like Sub Kyu-B did at one point, taking advantage of common defensive Pokemon and pivots to set up a Sub and start breaking team in half. However, not many people discussed about it and a few of the people i talked with dsiagreed, due to Victinit's plethora of weaknesses, SR weakness, and Pursuit weakness.
Jirachi: B+ ---> A-
While a case could certainly be made for Jirachi rising, it's still a bit underused and not as common as it should be, which means that the metagame hasn't yet adapted to deal with it. Once this happens, and if Jirachi is still as effective, i will move it up.
Weavile: B- ---> B
Some wanted this to happen, some didn't. Dicuss more.
Mega Houndoom: C+ ---> B-
Vertex proposed this iirc and he got a lot of likes, so let's see what you guys think.
Kyurem-B: A- ---> B+
Same as Weavile.
Togekiss: C+ ---> B-
Are offensive Nasty Plot and defensive NastyPass sets good enough to justify this raise?
Tangrowth: C ---> C+
Albacore and ben gay want this, so let's see some more opinions.
Crawdaunt: C+ ---> B-
Breaks defensive cores in half while not being useless against offense.
New changes for discussion (entirely new changes or recently proposed changes that haven't received any significant support or opposition)
Venomoth: C- ---> D / Unranked (outclassed by other SmashPass users, mainly Smeargle and Gorebyss)
Amoonguss: A- ---> B+ (being too easy to take advantage of after putting something to Sleep)
Rain sweepers for a one sub-rank raise (rain teams being more viable and all)
Gastrodon: C ---> C+ (rain is becoming more common, and this guy checks it really well)
Mega Houndoom: C ---> C+
Mega Absol: C+ ---> C
Doublade: C ---> C+
Blissey: Stays in D
Ferrothorn: A+ ---> A
Landorus-T: Stays in A+
Magnezone: B+ ---> A-
Landorus: S ---> A+
Breloom: A- ---> B+
Mandibuzz: B+ ---> B
Salamence: Stays in D
Tangrowth: C- ---> C
Celebi: B ---> B+
Politoed: B+ ---> A-
Sylveon: C+ ---> B-
Espeon: C+ ---> C
Smeargle: C+ ---> C
Mega Aggron: C+ ---> C
Lanturn: Unranked ---> D
Mega Houndoum moved because it's a good way to take advantage of the rise in Psychic-types and Gengar, as it checks both, while being a 100% counter to SubWoW Gengar and Mew, which is great. It also has a fantastic Speed tier that lets it outspeed most of the tier and hits pretty hard with just its STABs and Nasty Plot.
Mega Absol is too frail and easy to check to be in C+, while also struggling to switch unMEvolved into the threats that Mega Houndoom can, such as Gengar and Mew, because it's afraid of WoW. Landorus-T, Fighting, and Fairy-types make Absols' life harder (Azumarill, Clefable, Keldeo, Terrakion), where Mega Houndoom covers most of them between Fire Blast and Hidden Power Grass / Fighting.
Already explained Doublde in C+.
Ferrothorn dropped because the metagame is prepared for it, with magnezone and special attackers using HP Fire being everywhere.
Landorus dropped because it's hard hitting ability is less needed as the metagame becomes more offensive, while its only good Speed becomes a bigger flaw. Also, it competes for a teamslot with Landorus-T, adding a significant opportunity cost.
Magnezone moved because it can trap most relevant Steel-types between its Scarf and Air Balloon sets, while also providing defensive utility by checking birdpsam, Mega Gardevoir, Clefable, and SD Mega Scizor.
Landorus-T stayed in A+ because it doesn't excell in a single role as much as the other Pokemon in S rank do and lacks versatility in comparison with the Pokemon that are in S rank mainly because of their versatility, such as Mega Charizard X. Both of Landorus-T's sets are dead weight against stall teams outside of the U-turn chip damage, and none of them is especially good offensively or defensively in general, at least not enough for S rank. Scarf Landorus-T is the best scarfer true, but it lacks a spammable STAB and needs to predict correctly between the move that KOes the opponent and U-turn to not give up momentum, a problem many of the S rank Pokemon don't have (Specs Keldeo has Scald, Azumarill and Thundurus's most effective sets are not choice locked). And of course there is the opportunity cost in being unable to run Landorus-I.
Blissey stays in D because of this:
Mandibuzz moved for reasons that i already mentioned, and everyone agrees with this so i won't say anything else.
Mega Aggron moved because it's quite a bit inferior to Rhyperior outside of checking Fairy-types, such as Azumarill, Mega Gardevoir, and Clefable. Rhyperior has a much better typing for a physical tank, better STABs, Lefties, and doesn't occupy your moveslot. Mega Aggron is more or less one whole rank less viable than Rhyperior in this metagame, and i would only use it over it if my team was Fairy-weak.
Salamence stays in D because nobody has presented a really good reason to use it over other Dragon-types with late-game cleaning abilities. Moxie Outrage is cool and all in theory, but i would prefer a much initially stronger Outrage, useful resistances, and the ability to fuck up physical Ground-types with Ice Beam that Scarf Kyurem-B provides. Or, Scarf Garchomp's superior STABs, bulk, and typing. Or, CB Dragonite's superior wallbreaking, defensive, and revenge killing abilities. Almost completely outclassed, stays in D.
Albacore made a pretty good case for Tangrowth rising somewhere in the last pages, and so it did. Ben gay also vouched for it, so that's all i need.
Celebi moved because most of you guys seemed to agree about it, plus its Speed, Nasty Plot, ability, support movepool, and Psychic typing are big pros over Amoonguss, Ferrothorn, and Mega Venusaur.
Politoed move because rain teams benefit from the increase in offensive teams, against which rain teams fare really good. Also, rain teams are getting more versatile, which helps.
Sylveon moved because it's defensive set fares better than Clefable against offensive stat boosters and Sub users (Sub Mega Hera, Mega Gyarados, NP Thundurus, Sub Kyu-B, SD Garchomp, SubCM Keldeo, Sub + SD Terrakion, Sub Mega Medicham), and because its Specs set is good enough for B-.
I only posted the decisions that were agreed on by the majority of the people that posted in this thread and the people i talk with outside of this thread. Everything else was included in the list below.
Mega Absol is too frail and easy to check to be in C+, while also struggling to switch unMEvolved into the threats that Mega Houndoom can, such as Gengar and Mew, because it's afraid of WoW. Landorus-T, Fighting, and Fairy-types make Absols' life harder (Azumarill, Clefable, Keldeo, Terrakion), where Mega Houndoom covers most of them between Fire Blast and Hidden Power Grass / Fighting.
Already explained Doublde in C+.
Ferrothorn dropped because the metagame is prepared for it, with magnezone and special attackers using HP Fire being everywhere.
Landorus dropped because it's hard hitting ability is less needed as the metagame becomes more offensive, while its only good Speed becomes a bigger flaw. Also, it competes for a teamslot with Landorus-T, adding a significant opportunity cost.
Magnezone moved because it can trap most relevant Steel-types between its Scarf and Air Balloon sets, while also providing defensive utility by checking birdpsam, Mega Gardevoir, Clefable, and SD Mega Scizor.
Landorus-T stayed in A+ because it doesn't excell in a single role as much as the other Pokemon in S rank do and lacks versatility in comparison with the Pokemon that are in S rank mainly because of their versatility, such as Mega Charizard X. Both of Landorus-T's sets are dead weight against stall teams outside of the U-turn chip damage, and none of them is especially good offensively or defensively in general, at least not enough for S rank. Scarf Landorus-T is the best scarfer true, but it lacks a spammable STAB and needs to predict correctly between the move that KOes the opponent and U-turn to not give up momentum, a problem many of the S rank Pokemon don't have (Specs Keldeo has Scald, Azumarill and Thundurus's most effective sets are not choice locked). And of course there is the opportunity cost in being unable to run Landorus-I.
Blissey stays in D because of this:
Breloom moved because it's getting easier and easier to check after sleep has been activated, as outside of Amoonguss and Mega Vevusaur, Pokemon such as Mega Heracross and Mew, that have risen a lot in usage over the past months, easily wall it. It's also much easier to anti-lead, with Jolly Mega Heracross and Fake Out Mega Medicham rising in usage. SD + LO is potent but the metagame hasn't adapted to this set yet, so it will stay in B+ until we see how the SD set fares in a metagame prepared for it.ben gay said:
Mandibuzz moved for reasons that i already mentioned, and everyone agrees with this so i won't say anything else.
Mega Aggron moved because it's quite a bit inferior to Rhyperior outside of checking Fairy-types, such as Azumarill, Mega Gardevoir, and Clefable. Rhyperior has a much better typing for a physical tank, better STABs, Lefties, and doesn't occupy your moveslot. Mega Aggron is more or less one whole rank less viable than Rhyperior in this metagame, and i would only use it over it if my team was Fairy-weak.
Salamence stays in D because nobody has presented a really good reason to use it over other Dragon-types with late-game cleaning abilities. Moxie Outrage is cool and all in theory, but i would prefer a much initially stronger Outrage, useful resistances, and the ability to fuck up physical Ground-types with Ice Beam that Scarf Kyurem-B provides. Or, Scarf Garchomp's superior STABs, bulk, and typing. Or, CB Dragonite's superior wallbreaking, defensive, and revenge killing abilities. Almost completely outclassed, stays in D.
Albacore made a pretty good case for Tangrowth rising somewhere in the last pages, and so it did. Ben gay also vouched for it, so that's all i need.
Celebi moved because most of you guys seemed to agree about it, plus its Speed, Nasty Plot, ability, support movepool, and Psychic typing are big pros over Amoonguss, Ferrothorn, and Mega Venusaur.
Politoed move because rain teams benefit from the increase in offensive teams, against which rain teams fare really good. Also, rain teams are getting more versatile, which helps.
Sylveon moved because it's defensive set fares better than Clefable against offensive stat boosters and Sub users (Sub Mega Hera, Mega Gyarados, NP Thundurus, Sub Kyu-B, SD Garchomp, SubCM Keldeo, Sub + SD Terrakion, Sub Mega Medicham), and because its Specs set is good enough for B-.
I only posted the decisions that were agreed on by the majority of the people that posted in this thread and the people i talk with outside of this thread. Everything else was included in the list below.
Changes that need more discussion (changes that have been supported but haven't had a lot of talk or are controversial)
Victini: B+ ---> A-
This got a lot of support, with SubPuP getting more common and everything, which functions a lot like Sub Kyu-B did at one point, taking advantage of common defensive Pokemon and pivots to set up a Sub and start breaking team in half. However, not many people discussed about it and a few of the people i talked with dsiagreed, due to Victinit's plethora of weaknesses, SR weakness, and Pursuit weakness.
Jirachi: B+ ---> A-
While a case could certainly be made for Jirachi rising, it's still a bit underused and not as common as it should be, which means that the metagame hasn't yet adapted to deal with it. Once this happens, and if Jirachi is still as effective, i will move it up.
Weavile: B- ---> B
Some wanted this to happen, some didn't. Dicuss more.
Mega Houndoom: C+ ---> B-
Vertex proposed this iirc and he got a lot of likes, so let's see what you guys think.
Kyurem-B: A- ---> B+
Same as Weavile.
Togekiss: C+ ---> B-
Are offensive Nasty Plot and defensive NastyPass sets good enough to justify this raise?
Tangrowth: C ---> C+
Albacore and ben gay want this, so let's see some more opinions.
Crawdaunt: C+ ---> B-
Breaks defensive cores in half while not being useless against offense.
New changes for discussion (entirely new changes or recently proposed changes that haven't received any significant support or opposition)
Venomoth: C- ---> D / Unranked (outclassed by other SmashPass users, mainly Smeargle and Gorebyss)
Amoonguss: A- ---> B+ (being too easy to take advantage of after putting something to Sleep)
Rain sweepers for a one sub-rank raise (rain teams being more viable and all)
Gastrodon: C ---> C+ (rain is becoming more common, and this guy checks it really well)
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I never used Slowking / Ludicolo / Gourgeist, but I think alexwolf made a good point on them:
EDIT: alexwolf Do we need more discussion on Wobbuffet before you will consider bringing it up?
Ludicolo is absolute crap and should drop to D Rank. First of all, rain teams barely have room for it. You want Politoed / Swift Swim User 1 / Swift Swim User 2 / Support 'mon to have good offensive support. Kabutops beats Azumarill while Kingdra beats Keldeo, so beating each other's checks is so good about it. Stealth Rock is manadatory. Obviously, most teams with rain will use Mega Scizor or Mega Gyarados because they are so good on rain teams. Also, Ludicolo while Ferrothorn can't do anything to it, Ludicolo also can't do crap back making the Ferrothorn weakness more. I hope you guys realize there is something called Magnezone which on Ferrothorn with Specs Hidden Power [Fire] (which still 2HKOes Ferrothorn in Rain after Stealth Rock) and gets to use Thunder in Rain. Ludicolo is complete crap versus Seismitoad. Seismitoad can beat Thundurus-I which annoys the crap out of Rain Offense. Seismitoad's ability to beat it makes it valuable for Rain Offense and actaully being able to 2HKO Ferrothorn with Focus Blast makes it so much better, and we have Seismitoad in D Rank. Extra Mega Gyarados crap? Kingdra can tank +1 Earthquake and do massive damage with Draco Meteor. If you weaken Mega Gyardos / sack something doing damage, Seismitoad can KO it. And you are forgetting the fact that Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor is like on every Rain HO team. The former hard walls it. No extra whatever is needed. Okay, I know you said that if it is paired with Magnezone, but Mega gyardos also can't set up on crap with out getting 2HKOed by Kingdra's Draco Meteor, Sismitoad's Focus Blast + Earth Power combo, Kabutop's Low Kick / Stone Edge, Politoed's Perish Song, Tornadus-T's Hurricane, etc. Rain Offense is such a powerful play style that most sweepers cant' even set up.
Also, AV Azumarill 99% outclases Sloking in every aspect especially considering its way better typing that doesn't get mauled by Dragon-types / powerful physical attackers. There is no reason for it to exist. Salamence is balls because every DD user outclasses bar Intimidate. Sure it has Regenerator, but it is way less of a threat than Azumarill which hits harder and has priority. Unrank / D Please. If it was that great like how you are making it seem, why would people not use it? Answer. AV Tangrowth and AV Azumarill.
You made a good point for Gourgeist. Okay.
Also, AV Azumarill 99% outclases Sloking in every aspect especially considering its way better typing that doesn't get mauled by Dragon-types / powerful physical attackers. There is no reason for it to exist. Salamence is balls because every DD user outclasses bar Intimidate. Sure it has Regenerator, but it is way less of a threat than Azumarill which hits harder and has priority. Unrank / D Please. If it was that great like how you are making it seem, why would people not use it? Answer. AV Tangrowth and AV Azumarill.
You made a good point for Gourgeist. Okay.
Honestly, Kyurem-B has lost a lot of his viability these days. Its defensive typing is terrible, not only cursing it with a Stealth Rock weakness, but also crippling it with weaknesses to common Dragon- and Fairy-type moves. The Mega wallbreakers have also taken its role as a wallbreaker away, since they pose a bigger threat to the metagame, and honestly, Kyurem-B isn't even that good of a wallbreaker in general. it does poorly against the likes of Mega Scizor, Sand Rush Excadrill, Tyranitar, Clefable, Mew, Mega Gardevoir, Slowbro... I could go on. I really could, but you get the picture. I'll give Kyurem-B props for being able to hold an item like Leftovers or Choice Scarf, but that's really the only thing it has over the Mega wallbreakers, and it just isn't enough. The metagame has shifted in a way that doesn't bode well for Kyurem-B, and I'm honestly surprised by the fact that it's only now being suspected for being unworthy of A rank. Drop Kyurem-B to B+.
Ludicolo is an okay alternative to Kingdra, given that Azumarill is pretty much the best Pokemon in the meta, and AV Azu is a pretty big dick to Kingdra. With its Grass STAB, Ludicolo is the swimmer most capable of handling Azumarill (Kabutops does a lot with Stone Edge but Kabu takes like half from Aqua Jet, while Ludi 4x res.) It also has Focus Blast for Ferrothorn, and is in general a good check to bulky waters. It also makes Gastrodon its bitch; I don't know if Gastrodon has dramatically increased in popularity or anything but a few people have been talking about it, and it's an enormous headache when it can shut down half your team.
But Seismitoad is so bad. I know that it's immune to T-wave/Electric moves in general but that is it only advantage, and in return he has a bunch of downsides (compared to Kingdra, Omastar and Ludicolo):
-Just by the numbers, Seismitoad is slightly weaker than Kingdra and Ludicolo, and significantly weaker than Omastar.
-Kingdra uses Draco Meteor much better than Seismitoad uses Earth Power; Draco's power is great for taking chunks out of water resists, while Earth Power is just too weak. Ludi's Grass STAB is very helpful against bulky waters, and Omastar doesn't need no stinking secondary STAB cause god why does it hit so hard.
-Seismitoad is slower than Kingdra. I know it's not exactly a fair comparison because Kingdra is disgustingly fast, but neutral 252 Seismitoad is outspeed by any scarfer over base 100ish which includes Garchomp and Keldeo.
-It's equally bulky as Kingdra, but Kingdra's higher speed allows it run HP EVs and still hit the desired speed tier (so enough to outspeed scarf Keldeo or maybe Scarf Latios.)
You're much better off running a good swift swimmer+a good Thundurus/Electrics check in two slots than a mediocre swift swimmer+a medicore Thundurus/Electrics check in one slot. I know Thundurus is a huge dick to Swift Swimmers but I can't recall a time I ever thought "gee Thundurus fucks over my whole team I'd better use Seismitoad" because Rain teams should carry dedicated Thundy check anyway, and there's plenty of good ones to use.
Ludicolo gets Focus Blast, which usually OHKOes Ferrothorn if it switches into rain-boosted Hydro Pump.
Also, Azumarill can't check or struggles to check a lot of Pokemon that AV Slokwing deals with much better, such as Mega Charizard Y, Landorus, Manaphy, Gengar, Greninja (all of them are using a Grass move noawdays), CM Suicune (Azu is set up bait for it, while King phazes with D-Tail), Latios, and Latias (the last two 2HKO Azumarill with Psyshock / Thunderbolt). And obviously, Slowking stays alive much longer, making it a huge pain in the ass to rain teams for example, as long as you have something to handle Kabutops, while AV Azumarill is very easy to wear down.
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I'm surprised Lando-i dropped, but then again, the playstyle it excels against isn't the most effective atm.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Crawdaunt for B-. This thing is impossible to switch into, and it's taking sizable chunks of health off offense with Aqua Jet. It's probably the most reliable revenge killer vs. Excadrill too. So not only does this thing DESTROY every time it gets a good switch in, but it's possibly the best TR sweeper, as now the speed issues are solved, and the only things revenge killing you in the whole game is Breloom!
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Crawdaunt for B-. This thing is impossible to switch into, and it's taking sizable chunks of health off offense with Aqua Jet. It's probably the most reliable revenge killer vs. Excadrill too. So not only does this thing DESTROY every time it gets a good switch in, but it's possibly the best TR sweeper, as now the speed issues are solved, and the only things revenge killing you in the whole game is Breloom!
I agree that neither leftovers nor substitute are good sets in the metagame, but I believe that Kyurem-black finds its utility in the actual metagame by using Life Orb, it is also kyub most used item at the moment.
Life orbs allows you to:
ohko max hp azumarill with stealth rocks on the field 100% of the time with Fusion Bolt without even atk evs, this is something that leftovers and choice scarf cannot do.
Can 2hko stallbreaker mew with a combination of ice beam and outrage, while he's also faster than him.
Allows the use of novelty moves like Iron Head in order to ohko mega gardevoir before she mega evolves or on a predicted switch and 2hko every clefable's variant with a combination of ice beam and iron head, oh and I guess iron head is okay too as a move choice if you don't like to get locked on outrage against tyranitar.
Can take a stone edge from 252 lan-therian and ko him back with ice beam, while earth power will 2hko even sdef rotom-wash (pdef rotom-w has a 63% chance to be ohkoed by earth power with sr), so it's also an okay answer to volturn cores (I guess that assault vest also is one of the best non-ground answers to manectric.)
Can still take a bullet punch from 252+ mscizor and lure him out with hp fire, if kyurem-black has a rash/ naive nature bullet punch from 252+ mscizor will never ohko him, even after sr, needless to say, without life orb kyub isn't able to ohko offensive megazor, while he has an 100% chance to ohko defensive 248/100 mega zor after sr (63% without sr) with life orb, so while hp fire is kinda rare (sits at 10% usage) can still be used to act as a mega scizor lure, it does also greatly weaken ferrothorn (252 hp 252+ def also has a 31% chance to be ohkoed at full health).
also: 0 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 203-239 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery slowbro isn't safe against kyurem too.
Oh, and
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 338-400 (94.1 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO without stealth rocks.
Kyub itself especially assault vest is also an okay-ish check for greninja on hyper offensive teams without them losing too much momentum, and while a mild/rash nature will make you lose speed you still have enough speed to outspeed key stuff like adamant diggersby, jolly bisharp, jolly megahera, adamant exca under normal weather max speed adamant lantherian jolly mamoswine timid gardevoir before she mega evolves, and timid heatran if you plan to directly max out speed, adamant/modest 252 nite/togekiss/mamoswine and so on.
Also, while the other "wallbreaking" mega might have more "skill" in destroying stuff kyub does not take a mega slot, so I can use say mega manectric with volt switch easeing switch ins for kyurem itself, or maybe venusaur if I'm building a balanced team, and I notice that say stall teams kills me, but I need venusaur utility I can slap Kyurem-black as a powerful wallbreaker, or if I use mega gyarados i can find Kyurem wallbreaking abilities useful in order to set up an easier sweep with him.
So, all in all I believe that Kyub still deserves the a- spot, while they are many wallbreakers in the tier atm, kyub does not take a mega slot, and it's pretty effective in what he does.
I discussed Weavile before for B rank, so ill bring up its points again. It does have two equally bad abilities, pickpocket being gimmicky and stupid, and pressure, which its too frail to PP stall, but it does have redeeming factors. It has access to priority in Ice Shard. It checks both Landorus forms, Landorus-T being the bigger problem, but both big threats. Landorus is too slow to hit Weavile, which OHKOs with ice punch, Landorus-T is a bit of an issue for it. If it comes in and intimidates Weavile, Weavile can't OHKO it, the tricky part is finding out the set. Full physical sets can survive an ice punch, while the scarf set cannot, but Weavile can't outspeed the scarf sets, and risks being killed, so Landorus-T is a solid check to him surprisingly. Weavile OHKOs fully defensive Tyranitars with Low kick. It can outspeed Greninja and can 2HKO with Low Kick, but no one switches Greninja into attacks. It can kill Heatran and Ferrothorn on the switch with low kick, but i don't recommend trying to hit ferrothorn as with LO recoil, Weavile looses a ton of health. Weavile also has about an 80% chance to OHKO D-Nite THROUGH multiscale which is part of the main reason for him to move up. But the best attribute is his strong Knock Offs. Both Latis are OHKO by Knock off, the tiers star defoggers atm, and no defense Mew has a good chance to be OHKO plus switching into something to take a Knock Off and try and hit Weavile back is tough, since the only thing to outspeed Weavile would be priority or Scarfers, which loose their item on the switch. Gengar and Gliscor are two other high tier threats killed by Knock off or Ice Punch. All of these threat above were A ranked, so Weavile can check a majority of common threats, however, Weavile does come with its flaws though, which is expected in B Rank. It has a terrible defensive typing along with a SR weakness. It struggles to get passed other top tier threats, and is usually forced out by them. These include Both Zard forms, Clefable, Scarfed Excadrill, Mega Gyara(can set up in its normal form then mega evolve) and Cross, Mega Venasaur, Rotom-W and both Scizor forms. Terrakion is OHKO by Low Kick, but if its scarfed it outspeeds, so you can decide if Weavile is checked by that or checks Terrakion. In total it has about the same number of counters as pokemon it checks. Weavile is suppose hit hard and quick then get out until another free switch comes. In all though i do think Weavile is something to watch out for when facing it and is fitting for the B rank.
Victini: B+ ---> A-
This thing is p darn amazing with many sets like sub pup, and stalltiniand other sets i don't care about.
good stuff:
stalltini is very guud. it's able to check cham + garde for stall , which is AMAZING, while revenging cross and beating stall with Taunt + WoW. I don't play stall, but it is certainly smth notable after the aegi ban.
sub pup just hits like a truck and can do a signifigant to bulky waters with bolt strike. sub pup helps this thing break through tran,bro,ttar, and mola. this thing also sets up substitute and protects it from taking lots of dmg from pursuit unlike other psychic types and can play mind games with sucker punch users like sharp which is p big.
hits like a truck: p self explanatory
bad stuff:
-stalltini gets killed by pursuit
-weak to rocks
-gets rekt by water types
-rekt by rain and sand (to a certain degree because of will-o)
-knock off weakness
overall, tini is a very guud poke and definitely deserves a-.
This thing is p darn amazing with many sets like sub pup, and stalltini
good stuff:
stalltini is very guud. it's able to check cham + garde for stall , which is AMAZING, while revenging cross and beating stall with Taunt + WoW. I don't play stall, but it is certainly smth notable after the aegi ban.
sub pup just hits like a truck and can do a signifigant to bulky waters with bolt strike. sub pup helps this thing break through tran,bro,ttar, and mola. this thing also sets up substitute and protects it from taking lots of dmg from pursuit unlike other psychic types and can play mind games with sucker punch users like sharp which is p big.
hits like a truck: p self explanatory
bad stuff:
-stalltini gets killed by pursuit
-weak to rocks
-gets rekt by water types
-rekt by rain and sand (to a certain degree because of will-o)
-knock off weakness
overall, tini is a very guud poke and definitely deserves a-.
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