XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[X5Dragon]

There is a lot of new comers so naturally a lot of wrong assumptions and approaches are posted, one of them being "ban it now cause we'll just ban it later".

So just to make a few points clear:

1) There is no rule saying if the pokemon is suspected and doesn't get banned it can't be suspected again. So if a pokemon is not a threat now but you believe it to be so once enough broken stuff get banned, vote for it then.

2) Likewise, if a pokemon has been banned to Ubers or was already Ubers in the first place, but enough arguments/people have been made there is no rule saying we can't have a (reverse) suspect testing to see if it can return/brought down to OU.

3) Usage =/= Brokenness, unless you want to toss our only washing machine and the Smogon Bird (tm) into the ban train.

=====

As for megas, I tend to view them as upgrades and that's what they really are. If you upgrade near useless mon and make it OU worthy where is the complaint? However stuff like Gengar and Lucario were already OU as is and instead of just give them a stat upgrade they also gave them the best abilities and as such they became Uber materials. What broke Kangaskhan was arguably Parental Bond more than anything, an ability so damn good it may even be banned from balanced hackamons.

So no I don't see every single Mega being banned (that's just ridiculous), while people might "flock" to the next available Mega and it's usage will raise, that shouldn't be a concern as long as said "next big thing" is balanced where OU is concerned.

 

[mertyville]

All three have respectable to insane speed, extremely good movepool they can take advantage off, can go offensively on both sides or mixed and have access to at least to one priority, and in that case one of the most prefered one, Extremespeed, which can be used to outspeed the main arguement people are using as an argument, Talonflame.

What some people don't realise of M-Lucario is, that, though it cannot hold an item, it has basicly a choice item without drawbacks on all its STAB moves. Not to mention its insane offensive Stats and access to 4 priority moves that make out for the lack of using choice scarf. Not only good offensive Typing but an great enough defensive typing to make up for its "frail" defenses.

Off all 3 that are suspect tested, I could see that Deoxys-S would stay, just for the insane amount of ghost and dark (priotities) moves running around. But Deoxys-S, though it has very low HP, its defenses are good enough to take at least one priotiry and depending on what set it is using, it can do at least one of its tasks. With that speed, it is a more unique version of Talonflame, which can go mixed and has coverage. Agains priority, it can use its own one to make up for it.

About Genesect I already said, what is needed to be said. As much as I enjoy using it, it is unhealthy for this meta.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

How prevalent were the Shift Gear/Rock Polish sets in Gen 5 on OU Genesect relative to this Gen? Certainly, a good player can exploit metagame trends and wreak havoc with a Shift Gear set, heck it can just use Iron Head as the sole Physical STAB, while getting Download boost for its Special moves on a good switch in and then Sweep. It can also bluff Scarf early and use one its coverage moves on something and then switch out

I am less concerned about the theoretical potential of the Shift Gear/Rock Polish set (and it acknowledge that it seems high) or its effectiveness when wielded by skilled player, but more of its current impact on the metagame and how it affects common decision making during the course of the battle. Indeed, the increased prevalence would make it extraordinarily unpredictable since it would fundamentally change the nature of Genesect as it could really complicate one's decision tree when facing it.

The prevalence (not necessarily "viability" but be synonymous with it) of the Scarf, Expert Belt, and Band sets seem manageable. The nature of their item has significant opportunity costs: the Scarf set will give away its Scarf if it outspeeds a positive natured 100+ and cannot switch moves; the EB set is liberated from its Scarf and can wreak defensive teams with its coverage, but it dramatically loses its revenge killing power; and the Band set will give away its item through the damage it does and like the EB set loses its speed (and ExtremeSpeed is quite circumscribed as a revenge killing tool since it has no coverage and dependent on a situational Download boost and cannot touch Ghosts; in most cases, it is about as effective as an Iron Head on the Scarf set.) Like all Pokemon movesets and items, Genesect does generate some information asymmetry, and competent players can manage this, but it does not seem to be diverse enough yet.

And perhaps historical precedent, which is a relevant consideration if one wants evaluate the merits of the unpredictability or "vast movepool" argument.

 

[Rotten Seagull]

What makes Genesect generally so good is that it can provide lots of sweepers free switch-ins while at the same time softening the enemy team. With a choice scarf Genesect does its job very well, which is thre reason why it is the most used set.

What makes Genesect particularly scary is that it is not confined to a choice scarf role. It can hop between many roles of which have been mentioned in this thread previously. Genesect's speed is perfect for a bluff set especially because few pokes faster than Genesect are sturdy enough to take a (possibly +1) u-turn, and as such players will naturally switch to their slower, bulkier mon to absorb the hit.

Overall Genesect is very versatile, and can easily support with u-turn, attack with a life orb, or sweep with shift gear/rock polish

I personally have not had too many problems with Genesect (yeah because I carry Heatran >_<), but I suppose that the choice scarf set especially can be a pain for more offensive teams that lack something bulky to take the u-turn.

 

[haunter]

How prevalent were the Shift Gear/Rock Polish sets in Gen 5 on OU Genesect relative to this Gen? Certainly, a good player can exploit metagame trends and wreak havoc with a Shift Gear set, heck it can just use Iron Head as the sole Physical STAB, while getting Download boost for its Special moves on a good switch in and then Sweep. It can also bluff Scarf early and use one its coverage moves on something and then switch out

I am less concerned about the theoretical potential of the Shift Gear/Rock Polish set (and it indeed seems high) or its effectiveness when wielded by skilled player, but more of its current impact on the metagame and how it affects common decision making during the course of the battle. Indeed, the increased prevalence would make it extraordinarily unpredictable since it would fundamentally change the nature of Genesect as it could really complicate one's decision tree when facing it.

And perhaps historical precedent, which is a relevant consideration if one wants evaluate the merits of the unpredictability or "vast movepool" argument.

Shift gear Genesect was released in mid 2013, while Smogon banned Genesect in late 2012. Therefore SG Genesect had no impact at all in Gen V OU. For the short time it was OU, Genesect's most common sets were choice scarf and rock polish. Choice scarf was absolutely dominant at the beginning, but then people started to realize that with a +1 boost in SpA and +2 Spe from rock polish, Genesect became a deadly special sweeper and I'm pretty sure RP was Genesect's most used set when its ban occurred.

Unpredictability and vast movepool which are, more often than not, related concepts, have always been relevant in regards to Genesect's tiering. RP Genesect could run virtually any combination of special moves: bolt/beam+bugbuzz, ice beam/flamethrower/bugbuzz, giga drain to fuck with Gastrodon and to keep itself healthy and compensate life orb recoil.

Needless to say, from a comparative viewpoint, RP Genesect is less effective in Gen VI. Genesect lost 2 important resistances, most of its coverage moves got nerfed and the metagame has become much more bulky offense oriented than it was in Gen V. Add onto that that now Talonflame exists and that every team packs multiple priority users. Assault vest also discourages people from running pure special sweeping Genesect (AV Conkeldurr in particular).

That being said, Genesect is still a great Pokémon and maintains massive unpredictability. It can effectively attack from both the ends of the offensive spectrum and, with the exception of Heatran, it has no "safe" switch ins. I've noticed an increase in choice band sets, but I'd say that scarf sets are still the most popular (both physical and special based ones).

 

[Ash Borer]

I would not go so far as to say that heatran is totally safe. The Sash lead/lure set featuring HP ground is tragically underused, and its ability to draw in Heatran, and safely 2HKO should your focus sash be in tact gives teams that very much enjoy Heatran being dead, such as a team whose main sweeper is Mega Mawile. No pokemon does this better than Gene in that it is so threatening it can draw in Heatran prety easily, as well thanks to download it's very strong despite a lack of a boosting item getting that 2HKO on SDef tran with the right d/l boost is pretty big. This ubiquity of lead genesect is part of what makes this focus sash set so good as there are countless valid lead sets Genesect can run, and the unprectability will cause the opponent to back track to their safest switch in.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

What makes Genesect generally so good is that it can provide lots of sweepers free switch-ins while at the same time softening the enemy team. With a choice scarf Genesect does its job very well, which is thre reason why it is the most used set.

What type of sweepers? It certainly cannot be Mega Lucario. And arguments concerning Genesect's ban should not involve that. Asides from Mega Lucario, which seems almost impossible to deal with regardless of Genesect's ability to enhance its efficacy, the other sweepers can be dealt with by checking them through good team building. There has to be extraordinary synergy with Genesect and these sweepers that it becomes centralizing. It is not like the historical Lando-I, TTar, and Keldeo triumvirate.

Personally, I did not use Genesect as U-Turner, but I saw its primary asset as revenge killer and cleaner, or EBelt bluff with great coverage against defensive teams. To ensure its ability to revenge kill, I seldom bring it in during the course of the middlegame so it would not suffer residual damage.

I like it because it can accommodate multiple playing styles, mine admittedly more conservative and less prediction reliant.

What makes Genesect particularly scary is that it is not confined to a choice scarf role. It can hop between many roles of which have been mentioned in this thread previously. Genesect's speed is perfect for a bluff set especially because few pokes faster than Genesect are sturdy enough to take a (possibly +1) u-turn, and as such players will naturally switch to their slower, bulkier mon to absorb the hit.

Keldeo when Lando-I was banished last gen wasn't prohibited from using EBelt and having to choose between using a Scarf, Specs, or Life Orb and also has a really good tier, almost certainly better than Genesect's tier in this Gen. Rain can be seen as its "Download" boost.

Overall Genesect is very versatile, and can easily support with u-turn, attack with a life orb, or sweep with shift gear/rock polish

I personally have not had too many problems with Genesect (yeah because I carry Heatran >_<), but I suppose that the choice scarf set especially can be a pain for more offensive teams that lack something bulky to take the u-turn.

That's because you are a good team builder and competent player who can account for a relevant metagame threat. :) But certainly if you carry Heatran for the primary reason of dealing with Genesect, then that is a good reason why you would adamantly support its ban. I use an AV Conkeldurr, not necessarily to deal with Genesect but primarily Rotom-W and its access to Knock Off to potential punish Ghost switch-ins.

 

[Pridy]

I would not go so far as to say that heatran is totally safe. The Sash lead/lure set featuring HP ground is tragically underused, and its ability to draw in Heatran, and safely 2HKO should your focus sash be in tact gives teams that very much enjoy Heatran being dead, such as a team whose main sweeper is Mega Mawile. No pokemon does this better than Gene in that it is so threatening it can draw in Heatran prety easily, as well thanks to download it's very strong despite a lack of a boosting item getting that 2HKO on SDef tran with the right d/l boost is pretty big. This ubiquity of lead genesect is part of what makes this focus sash set so good as there are countless valid lead sets Genesect can run, and the unprectability will cause the opponent to back track to their safest switch in.

While this is in fact a pretty neat trick should you manage to pull it off, I fail to see how this proves that heatran isn't a pretty near fool-proof counter to Genesect as it requires you to have picked up a download boost in order to do enough to SDef Heatran and most offensive Heatrans pack an Air Balloon. Heatran can literally tank ANYTHING Genesect throws at it repeatedly throughout a match (aside form that hp ground and I guess Douse Drive, but if you actually pay close enough attention to TP, it makes it pretty obvious)

I think by the Gen 6 metagame we have come to an understanding that many threats can run some niche sets to try and bypass traditional counters, and though they may sometimes work, causing these pokemon to technically have "no counters", I don't think it's much of evidence to prove a Pokemon's brokenness

 

[Ash Borer]

While this is in fact a pretty neat trick should you manage to pull it off, I fail to see how this proves that heatran isn't a pretty near fool-proof counter to Genesect as it requires you to have picked up a download boost in order to do enough to SDef Heatran and most offensive Heatrans pack an Air Balloon. Heatran can literally tank ANYTHING Genesect throws at it repeatedly throughout a match (aside form that hp ground and I guess Douse Drive, but if you actually pay close enough attention to TP, it makes it pretty obvious)

I suggest you try the set, it's remarkable. Although it is true that heatran is still a great counter to nearly all sets, and although it is true that nearly any of what Heatran counters can run hp ground to try and muscle through it, Genesect's extreme unpredictability is why this set thrives far better than nearly any other lure in the game. It is capable of leading far better than any sash lures, thanks to Genesect's natural lead ability making its sash far more reliable, as well, its offensive presence and wide movepool often forces opponents to rely on defensive counters to Genesect if they have one.

The point im trying to make is that GEnesect's ability to run so many sets puts it on another level compared to the rest of the tier and is one of the reasons it is pretty worthy of the uber tier.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I suggest you try the set, it's remarkable. Although it is true that heatran is still a great counter to nearly all sets, and although it is true that nearly any of what Heatran counters can run hp ground to try and muscle through it, Genesect's extreme unpredictability is why this set thrives far better than nearly any other lure in the game. It is capable of leading far better than any sash lures, thanks to Genesect's natural lead ability making its sash far more reliable, as well, its offensive presence and wide movepool often forces opponents to rely on defensive counters to Genesect if they have one.

Ironically, it is actually Genesect's predictability that makes it effective. Genesect can be reasonably expected not to run HP Ground, and that why it is an effectively lure in that situation.

Also, that Heatran might be a Stealth Rock setter with Air Balloon and could just get up Rocks and now you have to safely get a defogger/spinner in and use a turn to clear the hazards.

 

[Rotten Seagull]

What type of sweepers? It certainly cannot be Mega Lucario.

From my experience, if a genesect lands a u-turn on a poke with little offensive presence, any sweeper can set up easily. Then again, I don't know if this is a problem for anybody else.

And, I am not basing Genesect's banning on u-turn in that respect. U-turn in general is a very good move and is an invaluable tool for offensive teams.

I am on the fence regarding Genesect's ban. It is good at what it does but I am not sure if that warrants a ban.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

From my experience, if a genesect lands a u-turn on a poke with little offensive presence, any sweeper can set up easily. Then again, I don't know if this is a problem for anybody else.

And, I am not basing Genesect's banning on u-turn in that respect. U-turn in general is a very good move and is an invaluable tool for offensive teams.

I am on the fence regarding Genesect's ban. It is good at what it does but I am not sure if that warrants a ban.

That seems applicable to almost any Volt-Turn tactic and user when used in conjunction with a sweeper(s), and it is indeed a strength of Volt-turn tactic. In this case, you are not exploiting U-Turn's damage but the fact that your sweeper got a "free" switch (barring hazards) and a turn to set up.

 

[LoDart210]

There are numerous other factors in play about Genesect, one of the biggest I think is download. despite Genesect not commonly running STAB other than U-Turn, +1 is equal to it having STAB on either all of it's physical or special moves. Many variants are either mixed with Iron Head, or almost completely physical, meaning those last 4 evs in spec d can screw you over.

Now with that in mind, try to find a way to adapt to something like that with it spamming U-Turn. Trapping can work after it revenges something, but 1.) this implies Genesect has already partially completed it's job and 2.) perfect, unless it's the expert belt set. If it's only SE attacks would have KO'd the target anyway (and unless you've frisked or scouted it with a slower scarfer), it can be impossible to tell the difference. You bring Wob in after an unboosted T-Bolt kills your Gyrados, only for Wob to eat a +1 U-Turn and end up mirror coating for nothing at the switch in. Since Steel lost it's dark resistance, pursuiting becomes a viable option... but most pursuiters are dark types, and as such won't like taking U-Turns. Two of the most relevant, weavile and T-Tar will be destroyed by Iron Head from an E-Belt set anyway. Faster fire scarfers can safely eliminate any Genesect, except banded E-Speed variants.

The issue is, if you adapt to Genesect, it'll adapt to you. When everyone can handle one set, another will become popular to compensate. And because Genesect's sets are so varied and numerous, you can never be on top of them all. I was looking at the Ou Viabillity rankings, and noticed Entei is ranked as a B. the same Entei that couldn't find four moves for a physical set in RU last generation. Did I miss Entei getting like wild charge, earthquake or close combat or something, or is it only OU viable because scarf variants beat Genesect?

I agree with you. I think you sort of proved my point. True, genesect is very strong and powerful with varied sets but the key factor that would determine if it is ban worthy is that u turn allows it almost completely unhindered movement.

What I meant by adapting was finding out what set it had, although due to u turn is only the first step in taking it out, which is why I argue that if anything is going to get genesect banned its u turn.

As for entei it. Got sacred fire this gen making it a great status spreader and hole puncher, making it easy for a cleanup sweeper to take charge. Additionally, assault vest gives it good survivability.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I agree with you. I think you sort of proved my point. True, genesect is very strong and powerful with varied sets but the key factor that would determine if it is ban worthy is that u turn allows it almost completely unhindered movement.

What I meant by adapting was finding out what set it had, although due to u turn is only the first step in taking it out, which is why I argue that if anything is going to get genesect banned its u turn.

As for entei it. Got sacred fire this gen making it a great status spreader and hole puncher, making it easy for a cleanup sweeper to take charge. Additionally, assault vest gives it good survivability.

Like you, I do not like arguments that resting on its role as a U-Turner as it could apply to any other U-Turner. Unlike Gen-5, Rocky Helmet is more prevalent, but there are more reliable means of hazard control this Gen. Pokemon like Gliscor can shut down Volt-Turn with its access to Sub and Protect, as it is able to force Genesect to use its coverage moves to break its Sub or use Protect to make its Choice item a liability (and not to mention safely activate Toxic Orb). Gliscor seems to be more prevalent this Gen due to the Rain and special nerf, and that it is not weak to most common priority moves with the exception of Azumarill's Aqua Jet (Mamoswine lost viability as a Dragon check due to the presence of Fairies deterring the use of Outrage on Dragon movesets and Excadrill's Iron Head) in the meta. It has a good chance of surviving a Rotom-W Hydro Pump, even without Special Defense investment, due to the Special nerf and can switch out later on and its mere presence deters the use of Earthquake.

I am now much more receptive to the unpredictability argument, which involve the identity of Genesect's "fourth move" (which is fundamentally Iron Head or a special move mainly Bug Buzz and Iron Head) and the item it is holding.

Based on the usage statistics from January 2013 from Pokemon Online, I would say Genesect is just as unpredictable in the early Gen 6 meta as it was in early 2013. The past distribution of moves and items is similar to the current usage statistics of Genesect. If unpredictability was a valid argument then, it is a valid argument now.

 

[RedBomberX]

It's not frail, though. Seriously.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 168-200 (59.7 - 71.1%)
That's super-effective STAB priority from a max attack Conkeldurr. It is not frail. It's not a tank, it doesn't have Arceus-esque defences, but 70/88/70 is not bad at all for an offensive 'mon, particularly given Lucario's nice defensive typing.

What are you talking about..... A mach Punch from Conkeldur is an easy one hit KO.
It's defenses are not bad as you stated 70/88/70 but when using Mega Lucario it usually gets one shotted by attackers it's weak to.
I one shot a Mega Lucaro with Hp Fire from a Greninja... Mega Lucario is definitely frail..

So can we please keep this discussion logical...this isn't Mega Mom :P
If Mega Lucario is gonna be banned it's gonna be for it's variety of options and power...

Terrakion a common physical attacker in OU has 91/90/90 defenses and most people run the choice bad set not many Pokemon can take a close combat from Terrakion...

As for Genesect it's similar to Mega Lucario because it also has a variety of different options at it's disposal...but should a Pokemon really be banned because of it's versatility... I'm in a tough kind of spot because I made my OU team in a way that I can handle both Genesect and Mega Lucario with not that much trouble.

 

[Albacore]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-82817005

Enough said on Mega-Skywalker?

That replay doesn't prove anything. The team that got swept was completely unprepared for MLucario, handled it very badly, and just wasn't even remotely OU-viable, Lucarionite banned or not.

That being said, I agree that we have said enough about MLucario. There's no point in discussing it anymore. We should move on to Genesect and especially Deo-S, which I'm completely on the fence about

What are you talking about..... A mach Punch from Conkeldurr is an easy one hit KO.

No it's not. He just posted a calc. You can't argue with numbers. You're essentially disputing facts here.

Although that calc didn't take Choice Band or Iron Fist into account.

252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 254-300 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 204-242 (72.5 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 306-360 (108.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Although I believe we're taking about AV Conkeldurr here.

Also, why are we still discussing Mega-Lucario? It's clearly broken, whether or not Conkeldurr can counter it. We should move on.

 

[Photofluid]

Concerning the "unpredictablity" of genesect, its data is not quite showing the same, basically everyone should know what to be expected. It does have vast movepool, but very few of them can be used in a realistic manner when you consider those useful one tends to be unSTABed thanks to its horrible offensive typing, which is why we are seeing the dominating usage of fire/ice because of their SE coverage, and thunderbolt to prevent them from being completely walled by water type.

By far, anything that can take neutral special hits and u-turn morderately well(rare, but certainly more than that of Rotom-W thanks to WoW) can switch in without having significant issues, it certainly loses you quite some momentum but that is what Voltturn is existing for, and will always exist unless we decides to ban it. This may have been an issue in the generally frail GenV, but when the Meta gets significantly bulky, such kind of damage is more of a form of passive damage regardless.

Another fact that people misses about genesect is that it does not have that much switch in oppotunity, neutral SR hurts, and its undefensive stats are medicro at best. Steels are also a lot easier to be dealt with in this generation, being hit neutrally in a whole lot more manner after so many dragons are gone and replaced by the now unresisted ghost and dark.

Also, I think we are kinda skipping the positive impact of Genesect in the meta. It is not like those powerful sweepers, genesect with its unique present shapes the meta with more than just sheer power, and the later is what it was never known for regardless.

While I am sorry that I have yet to play in the suspect test and have to do some theorymoning(and there are some time before we can see the January stats), one thing I can immediately realise is that the leading and revenge killing of Genesect is what effectively checks most scarf users below 100 speed(Landorus-T) and many non-scarf users above that(Greninjar, Terroskion). It also forces scarf users with above 100 speed to run timid/jolly nature. It just in a lot of ways keeping effectively keeps HO teams in checks, which have not really lost that much viablity as compared to Gen V. This, should be considered healthy to the meta for anyone who do not particular miss Gen V.

On the other hand, the massive prevalence of Genesect also helps defensive pokemon quite a bit, as they can easily pick up a protect which really disturbs choice-locked Genesects, the unSTABed moves from Genesect also have a hard time wall breaking even with possible SE, which encourages the usage of more defensive pokemon. And unlike Gen V, defensive pokemons are much usable now with the insane wall breakers in the form of Rain Hydro Pump and Sun Fire Blast gone(405BP with STAB,weather and choice item stacked), which were arguably better than even Lucario in our discussion.

 

[Martin]

Deoxys-S will probably not get banned although it's Life Orb set is pretty damn terrifying this gen coupled with its rediculous base speed. However, Deoxys-S has to face opposing Talonflame and Speed Boost Scolipede now, so it will not go uber.

Lucario is solid without it's mega, and the mega is just too damn unpredictable to stay in OU. Sure you could argue that any super effective prioroty will deal with it, but then you see Bullet Punch and Vaccum Wave and you get KOd. The only thing that you could say even sort of checks it is specially based Toxicroak with Vaccum Wave, but that's too frail to deal with a STAB Adaptabiliy boosted Bullet Punch or Flash Canon. Assault Vest Conkeldurr is an even better answer, but why would you leave a Mega Lucario in to take a Drain Punch or Mach Punch anyway. Sure non assault vest sets could bulk up, but then if Lucario is specially based it will pry on the lack of assault vest to deal a hefty chunk with any move (depending on what you predict). This thing will definitely be banned.

Genesect is broken. Hands down. And now that it gets ExtremeSpeed through event, the Choice Band sets are now even more viable than before, and due to the now increased physical movepool that it gets, it can run a physical scarf more effectively and the special scarf is still perfectly viable. The only thing that it has that might put the votes against being banned up is the introduction of Talonflame who will usually die after not too many attacks due to it's reliance on recoil moves. In a nutshell, Genesect is broken enough for ubers (at least Scizor will get a bit more use now).

 

[RedBomberX]

I'm sorry but the team that got annihilated looked like it was just built to lose against a Mega Lucario.

Ya and some of the Pokemon that were used don't do that well in an OU environment.
Umbreon, Delphox, and Empoleon.

Also Metagross's new dark weakness it's helping the big lovable psychic robot :P


Deoxys-S is probably staying in OU hasn't made much of an impact compared to Mega Lucario and Genesect.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

On the other hand, the massive prevalence of Genesect also helps defensive pokemon quite a bit, as they can easily pick up a protect which really disturbs choice-locked Genesects, the unSTABed moves from Genesect also have a hard time wall breaking even with possible SE, which encourages the usage of more defensive pokemon. And unlike Gen V, defensive pokemons are much usable now with the insane wall breakers in the form of Rain Hydro Pump and Sun Fire Blast gone(405BP with STAB,weather and choice item stacked), which were arguably better than even Lucario in our discussion.

I want to see how Genesect would perform in a meta without Mega Lucario.

There are viable tactics against Genesect and Volt-Turn in general that hampers its effectiveness. These tactics do not seem "centralizing" to the metagame. Really, is Genesect (not just Volt-Turners in general) the sole or major reason people use Rocky Helmet on Skarmory and Ferrothorn now? Knock Off is part of it too, and Knock Off indirectly (and directly if it is hit by it) hampers the effectiveness of Genesect or any other U-Turn user for that matter. Talonflame also contributes to Rocky Helmet's increased usage, and Talonflame's net influence on the metagame decreases Genesect's efficacy (although it can run Extreme Speed to beat it).

Off topic... and yes, Choiced weather boosted attacks are definitely more possess brute power than a +2 Mega Lucario base 80 move. (80 x 2 STAdaptibility X 2 from Nasty Plot = 320). Mega Luc has fewer deterrents against its use (inaccuracy, choice lock, and reliance on weather) compared to the weather users.

 

[Albacore]

I want to see how Genesect would perform in a meta without Mega Lucario.

I don't think Genesect would be any different with or without M-Lucario. In fact, Genesect seems do pretty well against any kind of team. It can whittle down both stall and bulky offense by U-Turning out of its counters, and thanks to Choice Scarf and a lack of weakness to common priority, it can mess around with hyper offense pretty efficently, provided hazards are kept down.
Genesect is quite possibly the easiest and most rewarding Pokemon in OU to build a team around. Unlike Mega-Lucario which can literally be slapped onto any team and win. As for Deo-S... I don't know. I'm pretty sure it either provides support for its teammates or needs support itself to be good, but I've never tried it so I'm not sure.
We really need to discuss Deo more since it's the only decision which really seems like it can go either way.

 

[Salt]

I still think Genesect is on the fence. Anti-ban arguments, despite being from a minority, do have relevancy and are able to hold up unlike most of those against a Lucarionite ban. When thinking about Genesect in a metagame where Lucarionite is gone, don't just think about Mega Lucario vs. Genesect. Mega Lucario restricts teambuilding greatly, and when Lucarionite goes, teams will change. While this doesn't affect Genesect directly, it's still something to think about and we'll never know if the metagame is better or worse with Genesect if we're too hasty in banning it.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Genesect is quite possibly the easiest and most rewarding Pokemon in OU to build a team around. Unlike Mega-Lucario which can literally be slapped onto any team and win. As for Deo-S... I don't know. I'm pretty sure it either provides support for its teammates or needs support itself to be good, but I've never tried it so I'm not sure.

Genesect actually does not need much support. Its partners are rather "natural". The Scarf set can just be slapped on as a revenge killer or something that can at least force out certainly problematic Pokemon (with the risk of it being locked into a bad move), and the only things that the team has to worry about are its Fire or Heatran weakness.

Genesect really isn't that rewarding on its own. It is inherently prediction-dependent/

 

[Photofluid]

I want to see how Genesect would perform in a meta without Mega Lucario.

There are viable tactics against Genesect and Volt-Turn in general that hampers its effectiveness. These tactics do not seem "centralizing" to the metagame. Really, is Genesect (not just Volt-Turners in general) the sole or major reason people use Rocky Helmet on Skarmory and Ferrothorn now? Knock Off is part of it too, and Knock Off indirectly (and directly if it is hit by it) hampers the effectiveness of Genesect or any other U-Turn user for that matter. Talonflame also contributes to Rocky Helmet's increased usage, and Talonflame's net influence on the metagame decreases Genesect's efficacy (although it can run Extreme Speed to beat it).

Off topic... and yes, Choiced weather boosted attacks are definitely more possess brute power than a +2 Mega Lucario base 80 move. (80 x 2 STAdaptibility X 2 from Nasty Plot = 320). Mega Luc has fewer deterrents against its use (inaccuracy, choice lock, and reliance on weather) compared to the weather users.

Well, I bring up the topic of defensive mon just to tell that having bulkier pokemon or even just invest on defensive EV to counter Genesect is no longer a bad idea, because, unlike gen V, when you got OHKO regardless so it is better to just invest entirely on speed and damage, and also when Genesect prospers as everyone is just so squishy and can basically revenge kill half your team all by itself.

I don't think Genesect would be any different with or without M-Lucario. In fact, Genesect seems do pretty well against any kind of team. It can whittle down both stall and bulky offense by U-Turning out of its counters, and thanks to Choice Scarf and a lack of weakness to common priority, it can mess around with hyper offense pretty efficently, provided hazards are kept down.
Genesect is quite possibly the easiest and most rewarding Pokemon in OU to build a team around. Unlike Mega-Lucario which can literally be slapped onto any team and win. As for Deo-S... I don't know. I'm pretty sure it either provides support for its teammates or needs support itself to be good, but I've never tried it so I'm not sure.
We really need to discuss Deo more since it's the only decision which really seems like it can go either way.

Genesect does checks HO team in a lot of ways, however, it DOES NOT check bulkier teams, and is just a joke to stall team.

It is very important to know that Genesect has zero wall breaking potential, horrible STAB, no high BP moves, unreliable ability, cannot hold choice spec

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Genesect Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 248-294 (74.2 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hopefully this should prove the thing.

 

[T-Bolt]

Concerning the "unpredictablity" of genesect, its data is not quite showing the same, basically everyone should know what to be expected. It does have vast movepool, but very few of them can be used in a realistic manner when you consider those useful one tends to be unSTABed thanks to its horrible offensive typing, which is why we are seeing the dominating usage of fire/ice because of their SE coverage, and thunderbolt to prevent them from being completely walled by water type.

With a download boost, STAB isn't really needed. Plus, Genesect getting a STAB U-Turn helps it immensely in putting other Pokemon into a checkmate position and grabbing momentum.

By far, anything that can take neutral special hits and u-turn morderately well(rare, but certainly more than that of Rotom-W thanks to WoW) can switch in without having significant issues, it certainly loses you quite some momentum but that is what Voltturn is existing for, and will always exist unless we decides to ban it. This may have been an issue in the generally frail GenV, but when the Meta gets significantly bulky, such kind of damage is more of a form of passive damage regardless.

Iron head is pretty common on Genesect too. The only thing that can take neutral special hits, U-Turn and iron head is heatran, anything else loses a large chunk of health. A download boosted STAB U-Turn is by no means passive damage,
It more often than not damages the Pokemon that takes the U-Turn enough to be OHKOed by the next Pokemon that comes in. That seemingly passive damage can be important in several situations.

Another fact that people misses about genesect is that it does not have that much switch in oppotunity, neutral SR hurts, and its undefensive stats are medicro at best. Steels are also a lot easier to be dealt with in this generation, being hit neutrally in a whole lot more manner after so many dragons are gone and replaced by the now unresisted ghost and dark.

Of course Gensect still has enough switch in opportunities. 75/95/95 defenses combined with a load of resistances even excluding ghost and dark is still pretty good. I mean, Scarf Genesect was one of the top Pokemon in Ubers last gen. If it was able to find switch in opportunities there, it's pretty obvious that it has few problems switching in the current meta.

Also, I think we are kinda skipping the positive impact of Genesect in the meta. It is not like those powerful sweepers, genesect with its unique present shapes the meta with more than just sheer power, and the later is what it was never known for regardless.

I'm not sure what positive aspect you're talking about. Gensect can be a powerful sweeper with the right set. It's scarf sets turn turn ice beam, flamethrower and U-Turn weak Pokemon into free momentum. It restricts teambuilding to not include too many of the aforementioned Pokemon in your team.

While I am sorry that I have yet to play in the suspect test and have to do some theorymoning(and there are some time before we can see the January stats), one thing I can immediately realise is that the leading and revenge killing of Genesect is what effectively checks most scarf users below 100 speed(Landorus-T) and many non-scarf users above that(Greninjar, Terroskion). It also forces scarf users with above 100 speed to run timid/jolly nature. It just in a lot of ways keeping effectively keeps HO teams in checks, which have not really lost that much viablity as compared to Gen V. This, should be considered healthy to the meta for anyone who do not particular miss Gen V.

Again, I'm not sure what your talking about, HO teams tend to shy away from choiced items. Scarf is quite often a non-factor on HO. The only scarfed Pokemon are pivots like Gensect, so Genesect actually helps HO, it doesn't check it.

On the other hand, the massive prevalence of Genesect also helps defensive pokemon quite a bit, as they can easily pick up a protect which really disturbs choice-locked Genesects, the unSTABed moves from Genesect also have a hard time wall breaking even with possible SE, which encourages the usage of more defensive pokemon. And unlike Gen V, defensive pokemons are much usable now with the insane wall breakers in the form of Rain Hydro Pump and Sun Fire Blast gone(405BP with STAB,weather and choice item stacked), which were arguably better than even Lucario in our discussion.

Aside from the fact that the only prevalent protect users in OU are Sylveon, Gliscor and Chansey/blissey, there's also a chance this happens-

"Pokemon X used protect!"

"Genesect used Shift Gear/rock polish"

Derp....