XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[KztxL7]

If the definition of a counter is something that can switch into any set of a given Pokemon and force the given Pokemon out, then Pokemon like Charizard have no counters in OU, yet no one argues that they should be banned.

You are genuinely fucking with us at this point? Aren't you?

Charizard is nothing like Mega Lucario except that it has 2 different forms similar to Mega Lucario having 2 (or 3) different sets and once it Mega Evolves you know pretty much have an idea of how to deal with Mega Zard on the Physical or Special side.

Lets not discount the fact the Mega Lucario can actually try and overcome his 90 base speed before Mega Evolving by using one of its various Priority moves or the fact the Zard can't overcome its 4x SR weakness unless it is leading or literally comes in on the turn SR is being set. Y has it even worse because it keeps Flying/Fire.

From the looks of it you don't even know that much about the Zards if you honestly think they have no counters in the OU metagame, or is your view of counters still skewed.

Or are you going to tell me Politoed isn't OU Viable and can't fuck up a Charizard Y because last I checked, Politoed can switch in and threaten a Charizard Y out.

 

[Chiki]

You are genuinely fucking with us at this point? Aren't you?

Charizard is nothing like Mega Lucario except that it has 2 different forms similar to Mega Lucario having 2 (or 3) different sets and once it Mega Evolves you know pretty much have an idea of how to deal with Mega Zard on the Physical or Special side.

Lets not discount the fact the Mega Lucario can actually try and overcome his 90 base speed before Mega Evolving by using one of its various Priority moves or the fact the Zard can't overcome its 4x SR weakness unless it is leading or literally comes in on the turn SR is being set. Y has it even worse because it keeps Flying/Fire.

From the looks of it you don't even know that much about the Zards if you honestly think they have no counters in the OU metagame, or is your view of counters still skewed.

Or are you going to tell me Politoed isn't OU Viable and can't fuck up a Charizard Y because last I checked, Politoed can switch in and threaten a Charizard Y out.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. :p

Let's explain this more clearly for the folks who have trouble understanding simple arguments here.

Bolded part 1: That's what I was trying to say. Thank you for repeating it. The only similarity Lucario and Charizard have is that they can set up and attack from both sides of the spectrum. Duh.
Bolded part 2: Once Lucario uses SD or NP or CC or AS you pretty much have an idea of how to deal with Lucario on the physical or special side.
Bolded part 3: You're actually agreeing with me here and you don't even realize it! What I'm trying to say is that there is no hard counter to both Charizard X and Charizard Y. Is that clear enough for you? You even admitted that Charizard X is not countered by Politoed, lol.

 

[KztxL7]

Problem 1: Mega Lucario can attack from both sides of the spectrum in a single set. 140+ Base Attacking Stats + Adaptability allow it to hit hard as hell even without setting up. Charizard X or Y cannot do that nearly as effective as Mega Lucario can. This is part of why it is being suspected.

Problem 2: Even though this is repeating: The 140+ Base Attacking Stats + Adaptability allow it to hit hard before and after it sets up and allow it to hit on both side of the spectrum really hard in the same set with many viable attacking options. In other words unless you completely scouted its entire set you can't truly play it safe like you would against Charizard X or Y whose sets are far far more predictable.

Problem 3: While the Zards may not share a hard counter, there are more than enough genuine counters and checks that are commonly seen in the OU Metagame for both sets combined with the Stealth Rock weakness. Mega Lucario, has very few which have been shown on the previous page. Not everyone should have to carry a RestTalk Gyarados to beat its most dangerous set the NP Set.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

For me, the big difference between mega Luke and Charizard is priority. There's also Luke's better speed, access to special boosting moves, and no SR weakness. They are definitely comparable, but Luke is more ban worthy

 

[Ningildo]

God, it feels like having Nidoqueen discussed in BW RU...

I'm just going to point out that the "it's unpredictable" argument can be remedied by using the teammates (that, you know, take care of what Luke can't handle) as an indication what Luke is running. Mons that take out Gliscor and Lando-T? It's probably a physical set and doesn't pack Ice Punch. Note that this is just an example of countering this argument (as its used so, so, so many times with the "teammates handle what it can't" argument) and not really meant as a anti-ban argument (just have been seeing this in too many suspect test discussions since bw).

To the suspect in question, I was first of opinion that MLuke was definitely a threat, but stoppable. I mean, its Speed tier is great and all, but still leaves it open to certain mons, like Starmie and Greninja and Talonflame and more (scarfers, for example). And if mons can be banned because of unpredictability, why wasn't Dragonite Uber last gen (it had like 8+ sets on its analysis, lol)? Then it dawned on me; you can't stop it without crippling your team. If Mluke was physically based only, I bet there would've been no problems, as hard hitting mons on one side of the spectrum are able to be dealt with (just ask Haxorus last gen). It's just that Mluke hits ridiculously hard from both sides that you need to have a counter to switch in on it defensively, as most defensive checks are less "having a plan against it" and more "this is gonna force it out once and then I'm screwed", thus forcing a. to carry counters to both sets and b. predict what set it is or lose a mon that might be necessary (although it is a bit easier then made out to be, see above paragraph). Offensive checks or revenge killers either risk getting taken down by a STAB+Priority upon switching or have to let something die in order to get in and...force it out. This brings up the reason why I think Mega Luke is broken; forcing it out doesn't punish it. Its the reason why sweepers like Mega Pinsir that also have limited answers are easier to deal with, as forcing it out even once can cripple it beyond repair. Being SR weak means more now then ever imo, as it will be the only hazard most people run with the advent of Defog bar DeoSharp teams, especially so if you are a massive threat that can be nullified easily by merely being forced out. Mluke will have none of that; you either take out after tanking the hit with defensive mons (so good luck with that) or predict like a beast capable of winning the OST and getting your offensive check in safely. Every. Time. Just so it won't sweep your team.

tl;dr version:
It can hit from both spectrums ridiculously hard, you must carry counters to both sides in order not to lose and even if forced out, it isn't punished by SR, so wearing it down via hazards isn't an option like with other threats E.g. MPinsir/Talonflame. (fun fact: most mons that can "wall" Mluke actually can't OHKO it, so it can bypass them regardless)

Don't really think Genesect or Deo-s are broken or centralizing in any way (not due ladder stats mind you), but I'll hopefully post my thoughts on them later.

 

[sidakarya]

Bolded part 2: Once Lucario uses SD or NP or CC or AS you pretty much have an idea of how to deal with Lucario on the physical or special side.

You really don't. If you see a Lucario use Close Combat, you think, oh it's a physical set, time to switch out my Lando-T or my Aegislash. Then it Ice Punches or Crunches you and you die. That goes too for special sets - turns out your Zapdos can't counter NP Luke because it flinchaxed you with Dark Pulse! Or it turns out you got rused and it's actually mixed, and it's setting up Nasty Plots in front of your physical wall or massacering your Assault Vest tank with Close Combat. Want to revenge-kill it with Talonflame? Too bad, it has Extremespeed and your go-to revenge-killer died horribly. And so on.

What I'm saying is, that merely knowing it to be physical or special is not enough to counter M-Lucario. You have to know which subvariant of physical or special it is, and there is still the distinct possibility of it even being mixed.

On the other hand, if you know first hand, which Charizard you're facing, you can usually have a safe switch-in and not worry about completely random coverage movves. X-Zard, for example, very often carries STAB alone. Even if it carries Earthquake for Heatran or Thundurpunch for Azumarill (which I've almost never seen btw), you still can be sure, that say, your Landorus-T is a safe check.

 

[Serrak]

If you honestly didn't see them you're probably blind. But it's more likely that you just practice sophistry and are selectively ignoring the things I say.

You might not be able to understand my argument, but I hope that's not the case because I want to have an intelligent conversation, so I'm going to assume you're selectively ignoring them instead. Here are the points you need to stop ignoring:

1. It costs 3 turns to set up SR if you need to bring the SR user in, 3 valuable turns when battles on average take 20-30 turns. 3 turns when you could have been doing something else.
2. Defog + Rapid Spin are even more common than they used to be. It's not

It doesn't matter if Mega Lucario users use SR more often than everyone else. It doesn't change the fact that SR is hard to maintain and SR costs turns to set up. You really need to grow out of your selective ignorance issue.

I don't think you know what a contradiction is. A contradiction is when a proposition A is made and another proposition, not A is made. I have no idea where I "directly contradicted myself."

It's spelled "guarantee."

Oh look, I was right, there is no contradiction. I'm not denying that SR has to be considered; I'd really appreciate it if you could tell me where I said they were useless? Selective ignorance is one thing, but outright lying about my viewpoint is just low. It's true that Defog + Rapid Spin costs turns too. No one is denying that. But my argument is merely pointing out that SR has that same cost.

1st turn SR is very unreliable since your opponent might choose something to deal with your SR lead and you might not be able to get it up. It works, but not every time.

It might not be obvious to you, but it's probably obvious to everyone apart from you. Here is what you said:

If you need your T-Tar to counter something threatening like a Talonflame, you can't risk losing it. A smart player may see that your T-tar is the only thing standing in the way of talon cleaning you late game, and may want to simply remove it.

Here is the simple thing. You're not going to bring in Tyranitar often if the opponent has Talonflame. Similarly, you're not going to bring in your Lucario counter/check often if the opponent has Lucario. Is that clear enough for you?

I don't care whose it is. You were the one who presented it. It's a stupid definition, because Charizard has no counters at all according to it. But it's clear that each set has counters. Therefore, the definition of "counter" that was provided was wrong.

Lol, how is it not important if a Lucario set has hard counters?

That has nothing to do with Mega Lucario being uber.

Hydreigon is not uncounterable in the same sense as Charizard is. Charizard can choose between setting up with physical and special moves. Hydreigon can't. There are different senses of uncounterable. Hydreigon was the hit-and-run kind of uncounterable.

Genesect and Greninja are incredibly difficult to counter due to U-turn, but they're not uncounterable in the same sense Charizard is.

I'm going to repeat this important point everyone is ignoring:

If the definition of a counter is something that can switch into any set of a given Pokemon and force the given Pokemon out, then Pokemon like Charizard have no counters in OU, yet no one argues that they should be banned.

The next post I make will be a very long and detailed post defending Mega Lucario.

The contradiction I was talking about was that you say in this bulky metagame it's easy to pull a spin off, yet you also say that in this offensive metagame it's hard to get rocks up. Which is it, bulky, or offensive? Either rocks are easy, or spinning/defogging is hard since they literally take the same number of turns to get up/take down. There are also far more viable rockers than there are spinners/defoggers. As far as Hydreigon being uncounterable, just read the "checks and counters" section of this page http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/hydreigon

I think you're getting confused about who's selectively ignoring whom (I'll give you a hint, it's the person not quoting full text). I never said you were calling rocks worthless, I felt that you were dismissing them too easily, and you still seem to be. Meanwhile you are literally lying by taking my points so far out of context that you change the meaning. Honestly, at this point I'm pretty sure you're a troll. The only reason I'm not completely certain about that is because I like to be optimistic about people. I'm going to leave you on one point (not that I expect you'll listen). "uncounterable" is not by definition broken. "Difficult to counter" becomes broken when you add it to Mega Lucario's numerous strengths and relatively few faults.

 

[Chiki]

Problem 1: Mega Lucario can attack from both sides of the spectrum in a single set.

No one uses that set. It can't set up; you're discrediting everyone else's argument. No one assumes Lucario without SD or NP.

The 140+ Base Attacking Stats + Adaptability allow it to hit hard before and after it sets up and allow it to hit on both side of the spectrum really hard in the same set with many viable attacking options.

No one uses mixed Lucario.

Problem 3: While the Zards may not share a hard counter, there are more than enough genuine counters and checks that are commonly seen in the OU Metagame for both sets combined with the Stealth Rock weakness.

What are these genuine counters to both sets combined? I grant checks, but that's true for Lucario as well.

You really don't. If you see a Lucario use Close Combat, you think, oh it's a physical set, time to switch out my Lando-T or my Aegislash. Then it Ice Punches or Crunches you and you die. That goes too for special sets - turns out your Zapdos can't counter NP Luke because it flinchaxed you with Dark Pulse! Or it turns out you got rused and it's actually mixed, and it's setting up Nasty Plots in front of your physical wall or massacering your Assault Vest tank with Close Combat. Want to revenge-kill it with Talonflame? Too bad, it has Extremespeed and your go-to revenge-killer died horribly. And so on.

What I'm saying is, that merely knowing it to be physical or special is not enough to counter M-Lucario. You have to know which subvariant of physical or special it is, and there is still the distinct possibility of it even being mixed.

On the other hand, if you know first hand, which Charizard you're facing, you can usually have a safe switch-in and not worry about completely random coverage movves. X-Zard, for example, very often carries STAB alone. Even if it carries Earthquake for Heatran or Thundurpunch for Azumarill (which I've almost never seen btw), you still can be sure, that say, your Landorus-T is a safe check.

It's a good point. Here is your argument: Lucario can choose between Ice Punch and Crunch; even if Charizard is stuck between Earthquake and Thunderpunch, Landorus-T is a hard counter.

Notice that there still are hard counters for Lucario regardless of Ice Punch and Crunch. Gyarados, Volcarona, Zapdos, Moltres and Mega Venusaur.

 

[Millky95]

Just like to point out Lucario can also learn Thunder Punch. So whilst it isn't common, Lucario can get past Gyarados. SD / Thunder Punch / Close Combat / Bullet Punch. That's just a physical set BTW.

 

[sidakarya]

No one uses mixed Lucario.

What are these genuine counters to both sets combined? I grant checks, but that's true for Lucario as well.

It's a good point. Here is your argument: Lucario can choose between Ice Punch and Crunch; even if Charizard is stuck between Earthquake and Thunderpunch, Landorus-T is a hard counter.

Notice that there still are hard counters for Lucario regardless of Ice Punch and Crunch. Gyarados, Volcarona, Zapdos, Moltres and Mega Venusaur.

I use Mixed Lucario. It's a fantastic wallbreaker and lure with a ton of mindgame potential.

Those counters just listed are not really, if you're counting the surprisingly easy +2 boost and Stealth Rock (to which by the way, every single one you named except Venusaur has a weakness). Zapdos also gets absolutely slaughtered by Ice Punch, and even if it has no ice moves, it had better be in tip-top health (which by and by, means can't switch into rocks) Garados could work, but your Earthquake can't OHKO without prior damage, and you're going to be switching into rocks with no reliable recovery. Venusaur is one of the gods of stall, but even then...

• +2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Mega Venusaur: 274-324 (75.2 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

...and your Earthquake can't OHKO back. And so on.

Why assume Stealth Rock on your side? Because if the Lucario user has any idea, what he's doing, he's going to make sure that Stealth Rock for your rock-weak Lucario-checks.

 

[Millky95]

I use Mixed Lucario. It's a fantastic wallbreaker and lure with a ton of mindgame potential.

Those just listed are not really, if you're counting the surprisingly easy +2 boost and Stealth Rock (to which by the way, every single one you named except Venusaur has a weakness). Zapdos also gets absolutely slaughtered by Ice Punch, and even if it has no ice moves, it had better be in tip-top health (which by and by, means can't switch into rocks) Garados could work, but your Earthquake can't OHKO without prior damage, while +2 Close Combat 2HKO's you through the resist. Venusaur is one of the gods of stall, but even then...

• +2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Mega Venusaur: 274-324 (75.2 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

...and your Earthquake can't OHKO back. And so on.

Why assume Stealth Rock on your side? Because if the Lucario user has any idea, what he's doing, he's going to make sure that Stealth Rock for your rock-weak Lucario-checks.

Also Lucario could run Stone Edge to highlight those Rock Type Weaknesses

 

[Tressed]

No one uses that set. It can't set up; you're discrediting everyone else's argument. No one assumes Lucario without SD or NP.

No one uses mixed Lucario.

Yes it can, and yes, I do. Why? Cause it breaks damn near everything. NP / Flash Cannon / Shadow Ball / Close Combat. Don't diss it until you try it, its basically one of the best wallbreakers around. I can come in, blast something in the face with Close Combat, switch out. Bring it in, Nasty Plot on the switch in (who thinks I'm SD), blast it in the face with whatever works, and rinse repeat until my win condition is ready to clean up. Its just not as flashy as NP or SD Luke, which are sweepers and grab Average Joe's attention far more than a full out wallbreaker set. Get some rocks up and see how your so called hard counters fare.

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 177-209 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's not going to work.
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This might, except that
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 160-190 (56.9 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Venu can't OHKO back, whic means that it gets 2HKOed.
4 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 137-162 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Spot Zapdos, hit CC first time, next time, NP then Flash Cannon and Zapdos is dead.
-1 4 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 97-115 (24.6 - 29.1%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Again, just hitting Close Combat and dragging it through rocks means that it isn't guaranteed to be able to stop it next time.
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 211-249 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Nope.

See, there isn't a hard counter to Mega Lucario once rocks are up. At best, you can switch in once or twice (Gyarados), and god help you if they're using it intelligently and letting Lucario hit Gyarados so that Landorus-I can run it over later. At worst (Volcarona, Zapdos), you just flat out lose. And your opponent will be trying to keep rocks up, too. There's the kicker, you might be able to remove rocks several times throughout a match, but if at any point Lucario comes in safely and rocks are up, you can't pull it off anymore.

 

[Chiki]

Just like to point out Lucario can also learn Thunder Punch and Stone Edge. So whilst it isn't common, Lucario can get past Gyarados. SD / Thunder Punch / Close Combat / Bullet Punch. That's just a physical set BTW.

I added Stone Edge. While this is true it doesn't allow Lucario to get past more common Pokemon like Aegislash, Gliscor and Landorus-T. There's a reason why those moves are preferred.

if you're counting the surprisingly easy +2 boost and Stealth Rock (to which by the way, every single one you named except Venusaur has a weakness).

It's not surprisingly easy at all; Lucario can't KO the vast majority of OU pokemon while the vast majority of OU pokemon can cripple his sweep. This was covered before. Maybe I'll respond to the specific arguments in my longer post.

It was mentioned before that it's not easy to keep SR up in this generation due to Rapid Spin and Defog. Furthermore, there's a 3 turn cost to setting up SR as you lose momentum--one to switch in, one to use SR, and one to switch out.

Why assume Stealth Rock on your side? Because if the Lucario user has any idea, what he's doing, he's going to make sure that Stealth Rock for your rock-weak Lucario-checks.

I played on the ladder with a high rating a month ago or so, and I only used Lucario based teams (I've done so for 3 gens). It's not easy at all to set up SR because it's inconvenient at times to bring your SR user in and you lose momentum. It's a lot harder to keep SR up for Lucario this gen.

4 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 137-162 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Spot Zapdos, hit CC first time, next time, NP then Flash Cannon and Zapdos is dead.
-1 4 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 97-115 (24.6 - 29.1%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Again, just hitting Close Combat and dragging it through rocks means that it isn't guaranteed to be able to stop it next time.

No one uses 4 HP / 0 def Zapdos to deal with Lucario. People make Zapdos a physical tank.

Again, strange Gyarados EVs. I personally think Resttalk Gyarados is the premier Gyarados set of this generation.

Also, I think you must be very confused about those calculations. You don't even realize that you can use Dark Pulse (31-36%) instead of Close Combat and then use NP Flash Cannon which kills Zapdos anyway. =_______________= Seriously.

Dark Pulse does just 2% more damage less on average against Gyarados.

 

[Photofluid]

This thread is about Lucarionite, Genesect, and Deoxys-S, not about Volt Turn. Volt Turn is a playing style, and while annoying, is not up for discussion at this time. Besides, without Genesect, I don't see how its broken anyway.

Genesect on the other hand is completely broken. It can abuse volt turn to a ridiculous level, can set up sweep, can break walls, can revenge kill, and be totally unpredictable while doing it. I don't see how you can say volt turn is too centralizing, and not want to ban Genesect.

Not repeating my arguments when you apparently have not read it through, not only the pro-OU posts , but the pro-ubers posts as well.

God, it feels like having Nidoqueen discussed in BW RU...

I'm just going to point out that the "it's unpredictable" argument can be remedied by using the teammates (that, you know, take care of what Luke can't handle) as an indication what Luke is running. Mons that take out Gliscor and Lando-T? It's probably a physical set and doesn't pack Ice Punch. Note that this is just an example of countering this argument (as its used so, so, so many times with the "teammates handle what it can't" argument) and not really meant as a anti-ban argument (just have been seeing this in too many suspect test discussions since bw).

Well, I think unlike the scarf vs set-up Genesect, the set of MLuke is very difficult to be analyzed before they are actually used. The major purpose of MLuke is still to sweep, so the two sets basically requires the same kind of support. When you spot a MLuke, you know it is going to be a sweeper, but you don't know how you are going to get swept. The role of MLuke never changes, just that you don't know how it does it. Its unpreditability does not lie upon the playstyle, which is somehow predictable, but upon execution, which probably is not.

Btw, its coverage is so good that most of its checks are easily dealt with standard team comp, it is not like Zapdos and Gyarados are something that requires specific preparation let's be honest.

Also, in most cases you will probably see a mixture of physical and special poke in the rest of the team, which still leaves you no idea what the hell MLuke is running. And even it can be rare, full physical or full special teams does exist.

 

[Ningildo]

Well, I think unlike the scarf vs set-up Genesect, the set of MLuke is very difficult to be analyzed before they are actually used. The major purpose of MLuke is still to sweep, so the two sets basically requires the same kind of support. When you spot a MLuke, you know it is going to be a sweeper, but you don't know how you are going to get swept. The role of MLuke never changes, just that you don't know how it does it. Its unpreditability does not lie upon the playstyle, which is somehow predictable, but upon execution, which probably is not.

Btw, its coverage is so good that most of its checks are easily dealt with standard team comp, it is not like Zapdos and Gyarados are something that requires specific preparation let's be honest.

Also, in most cases you will probably see a mixture of physical and special poke in the rest of the team, which still leaves you no idea what the hell MLuke is running. And even it can be rare, full physical or full special teams does exist.

You didn't read my entire post it seems but anyway...

If a team's offensive mons would be walled by X if Mluke isn't special, then it would be safe to assume it is in order to take out X. Vice versa (and this is probably more likely), if Mluke has teammates that handle Y, its probably walled by Y. You can double switch to your other counter to make sure (as it would switch out if it really is walled by Y).

Saying that you don't need some support to get past certain checks/counters in a meta where 80-90+ mons can be viable and have to be taken care of is kind of stretching it.

But again, I do find Mega-Luke over the top, for reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[Tressed]

No one uses 4 HP / 0 def Zapdos to deal with Lucario. People make Zapdos a physical tank.

Again, strange Gyarados EVs. I personally think Resttalk Gyarados is the premier Gyarados set of this generation.

Also, I think you must be very confused about those calculations. You don't even realize that you can use Dark Pulse (31-36%) instead of Close Combat and then use Flash Cannon which kills Zapdos anyway. =_______________= Seriously.

Dark Pulse does just 2% more damage less on average against Gyarados.

I was giving Gyarados Sp Defense EVs, but if you'd like to run it with Defense instead
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 194-230 (69 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In which case you're actally worse off, since Luke can just boost up and 2HKOs you while you can't OHKO back.

As for Zapdos, I forgot to change EVs from 252 Speed 252 Sp Attack. Not sure what Zapdos usually runs, but frankly the EVs don't change how it plays out, CC -> out -> in -> NP -> 2(Flash Cannon) works regardless.

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 200-236 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 96-113 (25 - 29.4%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
or
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 142-168 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Zapdos: 136-161 (35.4 - 41.9%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Pick your poison, mate. Either way, after one switch into Close Combat and two layers of rocks, Zapdos gets 2HKOed.

Also worth putting out there that Flash Cannon and Shadow Ball both pack the same amount of power, and Close Combat outdamages both on Sp Def Zapdos, while the lost damage on the physical variant means nothing seeing as you just 2HKO it next time anyways. If you're going to call someone out on something, do your calcs before you post.

It was mentioned before that it's not easy to keep SR up in this generation due to Rapid Spin and Defog. Furthermore, there's a 3 turn cost to setting up SR as you lose momentum--one to switch in, one to use SR, and one to switch out.

Dude. You know this argument applies just as well for spinners and Defoggers, right? The difference is that when you lay down Stealth Rock, you do it whenever it suits you. When you go to spin, you don't have that luxury because its eating away your other Pokemon's health every time you happen to switch in.

I played on the ladder with a high rating a month ago or so, and I only used Lucario based teams (I've done so for 3 gens). It's not easy at all to set up SR because it's inconvenient at times to bring your SR user in and you lose momentum. It's a lot harder to keep SR up for Lucario this gen.

 

[silenced]

Chiki I think the problem you're not understanding is the risk vs reward analysis of certain situations where megaluc is setting up to +2, which is why you're having the problem of understanding these arguments in the first place.

Lets set up a hypothetical scenario, or at least part of it. You've just KO'd a pokemon with your non-choice locked tyrannitar. You're opponent now sends out their lucario. Your Tyrannitar does know earthquake. SR is in play on your opponents side and lucario goes to 97% health.

What do you do here? Witholding any and all other variables for the time being, you have about 4 choices here. I acknowledge there could be more, but I'm keeping it simple to start.
1. You switch out Tyrannitar, and Mega Lucario Boosts
2. You switch out tyrannitar, and Mega Lucario Attacks
3. You stay in and Mega Lucario Attacks and KO's Tyrannitar
4. You stay in and Mega Lucario Boosts. You OHKO it with EQ

Seeing as I said they have sent out their lucario (Note it has not mega-evolved yet), You have no idea what it is about to do or how it will achieve it (No indication of NP or SD or mixed yet). Since I haven't given you any other information to work with here, and it has been discussed to death about how Mega Lucario is dangerous once set up, it might seem like option 4 is the safest course of action, simply because the threat of megaluc setting up outweighs the risk of it attacking and KO'ing your tyrannitar.

So we add another variable. Your opponent also has a talonflame at full health that has yet to see play. You do not have anything that can stop SD Talonflame other than Tyrannitar. At this point the options as stated above change in terms of risk and reward. You could still stay in and try to KO megaluc, but it becomes far riskier to do so now because if it does attack and KO's your tyrannitar, yo now have no way to potentially stop that Talonflame. You don't want to be swept, so you have to make the safer play of withdrawing tyrannitar and sending out something else.

Adding more variables now. On your team, you have a physically defensive Rotom-W which has about 75% health remaining, enough health to stop talonflame from sweeping in any case, and also an aegislash which has enough health to tank a +0 crunch or dark pulse from megaluc, but not at +2. The risk and reward shifts back so you can stay in and try to take down megaluc with your tyrannitar, even though it might result in the OHKO of tyrannitar, its the safest play to make, since if it sets up, you will pretty much lose at that point, but you can at least for the time being avoid losing if you mispredict and tyrannitar is eliminated by megaluc. You also still have a check to talonflame, so you can afford to sack tyrannitar at this point to allow yourself to make this play.

The point I try to make by running those hypotheticals is that you cannot simply assume megaluc will just boost. It is quite capable of attacking instead. The only way to make such a choice as to risk your pokemon against mega-luc is because the function of said pokemon has become no longer needed so as to allow you to sack it without suffering too much for doing so. This however presumes that you will even have a good point in the match to sack a pokemon, as this will not always be the case. Stall teams can rarely, if ever afford to sack a pokemon, and thus would be more likely needing to swap out rather than stay in. Balance teams are somewhat in the same boat as well. Only HO teams can really ever afford to sack pokemon so riskily as to stop lucario like I have described without it being a major handicap to their playstyle.

Based on everything I've written, the final message to take from this wall of text would be that due to its immense starting power, and then boosted power, Mega-Lucario skews the risk vs reward benefits in such a way that the person up against it has to consistently make risky and dangerous plays whereas the megaluc user will almost always benefit from its presence on the field either in raw power or boosted power. Few sweepers/wall breakers (if any) can do than in OU as well as mega-lucario, which plays a significant role in its brokeness.

 

[Flamer]

After ignoring this thread for a while and focusing on some laddering and teambuilding my opinion on whether to ban Lucarionite or not has even more strongly fallen in favour of pro-ban. The main reason I have for this is that the threat of Mega-Luke and its versatility severely restricts teambuilding, moreso than any other non-banned Pokemon. As a random example, I have built a team that contains a Slowbro, an amazing check to most physical versions of Lucario. Unfortunately, it is a mediocre check to the special version. This forces me to run a check to the Special version, much to the detriment of my overall team. For just one Pokemon I am forced to run multiple specific checks, who cannot defend against the opposite version of Lucario.

I played on the ladder with a high rating a month ago or so, and I only used Lucario based teams (I've done so for 3 gens). It's not easy at all to set up SR because it's inconvenient at times to bring your SR user in and you lose momentum. It's a lot harder to keep SR up for Lucario this gen.

Only Lucario based teams huh? That doesn't surprised me.

 

[Photofluid]

You didn't read my entire post it seems but anyway...

If a team's offensive mons would be walled by X if Mluke isn't special, then it would be safe to assume it is in order to take out X. Vice versa (and this is probably more likely), if Mluke has teammates that handle Y, its probably walled by Y. You can double switch to your other counter to make sure (as it would switch out if it really is walled by Y).

Saying that you don't need some support to get past certain checks/counters in a meta where 80-90+ mons can be viable and have to be taken care of is kind of stretching it.

But again, I do find Mega-Luke over the top, for reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

Meh, my apologize if I miss out something.

But still, I think the pool of checks of Mluke is so small that it is not difficult for teams to achieve good offensive synergy with either sets of it. That says, even if something walls most your team fairly well, it is likely that either set of MLuke can still break it through without much problem. On the other hand, even if the team can get pass the counter of one of the set of MLuke, that may not necessarily show anything because they can easily get through the counter of another set as well. Gliscor and Aegislash for instances, are the topics for any offensive team anyway, not to mention that what walls MLuke is also determined by the coverage move it wants to bring.

Yah, so I still don't team analysis is going to give out much information unless your opponent is building a very predictable team(like having MLuke as the sole special attacker).

 

[Albacore]

1. It costs 3 turns to set up SR if you need to bring the SR user in, 3 valuable turns when battles on average take 20-30 turns. 3 turns when you could have been doing something else.

You do know that you don't usually switch into your SR setter, set up SR, and then switch out, right? Most of the time, you do it when you hit a Pokemon that's countered by your SR setter, and then set it up on the switch. It's called conserving momentum.

No one uses mixed Lucario.

Well, it completely destroys all of your so-called "counters", so I don't see why skilled players wouldn't use it. Don't assume the opponents will do exactly what you expect them to, because they often don't. Just because something doesn't follow the standard set doesn't mean it's unviable, especially against players like you.

If 120/120 Gensecect and 95/95 Deo-S can go mixed, why not 145/140 MLucario? Sure, the latter two are mainly considered revenge killers, but MLucario can also be a pretty efficient revenge killer, especially with that speed, priority, and SR resistance. Most consider him to be a deadly sweeper, but it can still dent teams without boosts. Why wouldn't someone want to turn him into a Pokemon who can switch into take something out and switch out when the job is done, only to switch back in again when needed?

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

How does Mega Lucario fare against lower usage pokemon

Blastoise (only Mega): Mega lucario can't OHKO Mega Blastoise, MBlastoise can OHKO with Aura Sphere. The special set can't even 2HKO. And Water Pulse clearly 2HKO and can cripple Lucario with confusion hax.

Mega Gardevoir: Loses with almost OHKO with Bullet Punch and clear OHKo with Flash Cannon but Lucario can't come on a Mega Gardevoir and neither can set up becuase Hyper Voice, which OHKOes.

Scolipede: It can outspeed mega Lucario with Speed Boost. Apart of that, needs Earthquake if Scolipede want to have a chance (and probably not ebing a dedicated BP user)

Vaporeon: Loses because Fighting STAB from the special set from either side 2HKO. Can try fighting the special set with Scald.

Terrakion: Can defeat Mega Lucario on turn 1 (or Scarfed) with Close Combat.

Jolteon: Outspeed on turn 1 and after. Thunderbolt has a chance of OHKO with Choice Specs. Special Lucario can't OHKO.

Mega Medicham. loses 1 vs1 with Drain Punch that overkills. No attack from Lucario can OHKO at +0.

Hydreigon: Scarf Hydreiugon 8the msot common) can outspeed M;ega lucario and OHKO with Fire Blast and Focus Blast.

Landorus. Only CC and Flash Cannon 2HKo landorus. Only Ice Punchs OHKO Landorus Landorus outspeed Lucario on turn 1 and over kills with Earth Power (or even Earthquake).

Slowbro. Can dela with physical lucario which can defeat easily. Scald 3HKOes while Lucario can't. And his high chance opf burn can cause a 2HKO.

Noivern: Outspeed every time. Specs Noivern OHKO Lucario with Flamethrower and Hurricane. The "frail" Noivern can't even OHKo back.

Chandelure: usually it's Scarfed and then outspeed every time and defeats it with 2 Shadow Ball and one Fire move. Lucario can't OHKo with any of his moves.

Mega Manectric: With Intimidate in, CC can't OHKO. Always outspeed Mega lucario. With Modest Nature, (outspeed Mega Lucario) Flamethrower is a guaranteed OHKO. And Thunderbolt is a clear 2HKO.

Mega Heracross: possible 2HKO only with Flash Cannon. CC overkills.

Jirachi: It wins with Choice Scarf Jirachi 1vs1 because Jirachi can'0t be 2HKoed, Jirachi will 2HKO Mega lucario. And Jirachi can have more than one set.

Chansey Obviously loses.

Kyurem-B: Loses against him with the Fighting move.

Deoxys-S: Deoxys-S has a chance of OHKoing Mega Lucario with Psycho Boost. Always outspeeds, it's guaranteed to 2HKO with Psycho Boost, etc.

Jellicent: loses aginst physical set. Wins against special set.

Metagross: Assuming leftovers, Lucario has to be lucky that Earthquake doesn't OHKO. If ti uses CC, it will OHKO.

Umbreon: Always loses. Free set up.

Politoed: Does poorly but has a chance of win to the special set if Aura Sphere doesn't 2HKO.

Celebi: Normally loses but Earth Power has a chance of OHKO. Don't use CC against him.

Gastrodon: Has a chance of OHKO with Earth Power. Guaranteed if Lucario decides to use Close Combat.

Arcanine Wins or ties with Flare Blitz.

Porygon2: Free set up.

Florges. Normally it loses, but it can set up that freely.

Darmanitan: Wins 1vs1 with Flare Blitz if it's the Scarf version. It's better with the special version because Aura Sphere can't even OHKO.

Kelode: OHKOed with Secret Sword and outspeed on turn 1. Special Lucario can't OHKO.

Deoxys-D: Free set up.

Mega Absol: clearly loses (300% from CC, no thanks)

Reuniclus: Given his usual EV spread, it does btter vs Physical version. Normally it loses vs Mega lucario. it clearly OHKoed with Focus Blast.

Magnezone: loses to the fighting STAB.

Haxorus: Risky but it can't set up because oHKO with Earthquake. Flash cannon doesn't even OHKO.

Mega Aggron: Earthquake OHKO Mega lucario. oses to the special set 80% of the time.

Diggersby: I'm sure that Earthquake will OHKO Mega lucario but can't take a Fighting STAB

Quagsire loses to Physical Lucario unless it's burned. Special Lucario loses against it. Earthquakes 2HKO. Swords Dance against him can'0t cost a Mega Lucario.

Crobat: genberally wins vs Physical lucario. 50/50 vs Special lucario (the key it's if Brave Bird 2HKoes).

Crawdaunt: Crabhammer and Super Power OHKoes Mega lucario but don't even try.

Zapdos: better surprisingly with modest in that case, because int hat case Thunderbolt OHKoes after CC (2HKo). Counter of the special set.

Weavile: Don't try with it. The best option if you don'0t have a ghost is tolose your Weavile by clicking Low Kick.

Manaphy: normally lsoes but can use Surf well. If Manaphy got the +3, Koes Mega lucario woith Surf/Scald (can't learn Hydro Pump).

Kingdra: It'0s OHkoed with CC. With this pokemon, there are two situations:
Not rain: Loses to the physical set compeltely. Wins vs the special set if it lacks Aura Sphere.
Rain: Normally: Wins 100% vs Special Mega Lucario and has a 50% of wiining with Surf (Hydro Pump is 80% OHKOed).

Whmsicott: Don't even try.

Ninetales: Wins on turn 1. Wins against Special lucario not having S.

Nidoking it wins with Earth Power.

Thundurus-T: Possible OHKO with Thunderbolt. Lucario can't even 2HKO with his special set.

Ambipom: Does pretty bad but has a chance of winning if he has Low Kick.

Mega Aerodactryl: Risk an OHKO with Earthquake. NMLucario has no problem taking it down.

Miloitic. Normally lose vs physical set, wins vs special set.

Rotom-H; wins with Overheat. Can't swithc in a Close Combat.

Mega Ampharos: . Wins vs Special set. OHKo with Fopcus Blast. high chances pof OHKo with Thunderbolt.

Malamar: Risk of a OHKO with Super Power. Specially Pohysical lucario, don't set up.

Snorlax: You forgot Aura Sphere, you lose. Be warned that Snorlax can cripple it. Obviosuly, CC OHKOes.

Starapotor: Mirror match. Depends of the luck and the set of Staraptor.

Hippowdon. Don't play with the high cance of OHKO with EQ, guaranteed with CC.

Machamp: Can lsoe vs physical lucario. But it will vs Special lucario with Dynamic Punch. You hope that MLucario can't

And I will end with Mew: His most usually it loses tot he physicalmwins versus the special special, but you never know what Mew has.


I got to the following conclusion:
Lucario is very frail, specially from the special side, which has a greater amount of moves that doesn't resist. Having a physical weakness to Fight and ground hurts. the difference between 70/88/70 and 105/100/100 are very different things. For example, Cleebi has 70% to Mega Lucario with Psychic, only 40% to not invested Mega Kangaskhan with psychic (and no super effective move)

The most strong set is the physiucal set with CC.

The special set has a sever case of 4MSs, you have to miss coverage (Dark pulse), miss priority (Vaccum Wave) or miss power (auyra Sphere). Flash cannon is very underwhelming when dealing with Electric, Water and Fire types. and Vaccum Wave don't patch that 90% of the time.

 

[Abra Kapocus]

*snip*

I applaud you, sir. Not all of these scenarios may play out as described, but hot damn that's a welcome contribution.

 

[termi]

- snip -

Problem with these calcs is that pretty much none of these Pokemon can safely switch in on Mega Luke but will have to come in AFTER Luke kills something, and even then you're screwed when he's at +2 most of the time. It's ncie that you took the time to do write all of that up, but it doesn't prove much in favor of Mega Luke, as depending on its set it can beat most of these regardless and even if it can't, it's probably already killed something beforehand, meaning it's a 1-on-1 tradeoff at worst. That's why it's got to be banned.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

The calculations are made thinking that your comes is in full health when Mega Lucario comes. This proves that switching against him is a "terrible" idea 90% of the time. the calculation show that if you have a Mega Lucario the first thing that you have to do is to use a super effective move or a strong neutral move against him, preferably in turn 1 and from the special side.

This calculations are to show that the true move that Lucario threathens the mertagame is the physiucal set ansd in particular, Close Combat. Crunch takes care of anything that CC can0t handle with his perfect coverage. Bulet Punch is for fairies.

That priority is overrated in generak, and Mega Lucario. Mega Lucario has 112 Base Speed and almost always run max+ speed outsppeding almost all the metagame. That means specially with this set of Mega lucario. Notice that many priority users are slow in nature, where proprioty and not poriority makes a huge difference; this is not the caseof Lucario, spoecially with it having 4MSS.

Nasty Plot/Vaccum Wave/Dark Pulse/Flash Cannon

This set can be defeated by good Fire, Water and Electric types easily, even at +2. Soory, Aura Sphere > Vaccum Wave, you can't miss 40 BP vs ire, Water, Elwctric and Steel which togethers takes many position from the Top 100. also, the Aura Sphere BP nerf (90' < 80 BP) it's noted much on Mega Lucario way more than the nerf of other special moves like Thunderbolt, Surf and Flamethrower.

And I notice tht a lot of pokemon has a way to deal with Mega lucario at +0. Mega lucario is a pokemon that it'snprefrred to be OHKOed if you know that X move can't OHKO it. Because a t +0, is not as bad as +2.

 

[HAKR]

Chiki, regarding your SR argument, just as it takes 3 turns to set up rocks it takes 3 turns to switch in your defogger/spinner, spin or defog and then switch it out, and it also gets damaged from SR when switching, so the 3 turn argument is pointless (Pun unintended)