XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[mertyville]

I think it is no suprise that a lot of people don't see Mega-Luke as a threat that belongs to ubers.

I prefer personally to play on wifi and it doesn't matter if I use luke or my opponent, most of the time, you have to go directly to an attacking move, having not much time to set up.

Just to make things clear, I am pro-ban for Mega-Luke, but I can see why people just don't really see what this thing is about.
So far I have seen only physical sets and most people run stuff like Gliscor, which you don't want to get behind the sub. However, if you get a match up with a pokemon that Mega-Luke can threaten, your opponent has to switch out, leaving you a free turn to boost. And we already have more than enough calculations in this topic to see what a +2 Mega-Lucario can do.

 

[Photofluid]

I disagree with 2 things

1. Genesect's sets are not subpar. If you are caught unprepared by its choice, EBelt, or shift gear set, it'll put huge dents in your team. And since it's pretty easy to fake 1 set and really be another, a good player can use any of them.

2. Genesect is not all things volt turn, he is simply one of (if not the) best abuser. Discussing the entire strategy of rain makes little sense, what does make sense is bringing up another Pokemon that was the best abuser of a strategy, excadrill, and he was banned.

1. Well, inferior at the least, yes, even with the surprising factor being factored in. Unprepared is not an execuse, and btw, the cost of guessing wrong is nowhere as high as, say, MLucario. One important side note about the ebelt set is that, even if you do manage to keep the illusion, it still does not work on pokemon of 100 speed.

2. Genesect is just "one of the best abuser", in last generation, Landorus-I and Tornadus-T was banned with voltturn being a core reason. It seem to me if this trend continues, a very considerable pool of pokemon is going to be banned for this very reason, especially when GF has been continuously increasing the amount of voltturners in the meta. Its effect, however, could only be seen after the Mevo meta have settled down a bit, as many of them takes the form Mevos which currently has the slot being dominated by the sweepers.

Btw, Perma sand rush Excadrill is outright against the offensive clause, not a good example if at all.

As a side note, what a nice coincident if it is, 3.5 of the 5 most used pokemon are consistent Voltturn users (don't know the detail about CB Talonflame, I therefore count it half).

 

[RotomPoison]

1. Well, inferior at the least, yes, even with the surprising factor being factored in. Unprepared is not an execuse, and btw, the cost of guessing wrong is nowhere as high as, say, MLucario. One important side note about the ebelt set is that, even if you do manage to keep the illusion, it still does not work on pokemon of 100 speed.

2. Genesect is just "one of the best abuser", in last generation, Landorus-I and Tornadus-T was banned with voltturn being a core reason. It seem to me if this trend continues, a very considerable pool of pokemon is going to be banned for this very reason, especially when GF has been continuously increasing the amount of voltturners in the meta. Its effect, however, could only be seen after the Mevo meta have settled down a bit, as many of them takes the form Mevos which currently has the slot being dominated by the sweepers.

Btw, Perma sand rush Excadrill is outright against the offensive clause, not a good example if at all.

As a side note, what a nice coincident if it is, 3.5 of the 5 most used pokemon are consistent Voltturn users (don't know the detail about CB Talonflame, I therefore count it half).

What? Nothing in this post makes sense. What happens if Genesect sets up a Shift Gear on a switch? Torn-T was banned because it was faster then ScarfTar and everything below 120 and killed you with 2 Hurricanes in PermaRain. VoltTurn is in no way broken. Also "against the offensive clause" What kind of argument is that?

(Again, I'm most likely going to vote to ban Lucario only, but Genesect is obviously a huge threat)

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Let's play might revenge kill, but can't switch into it at all!
Here are my responses to your "reasonings" (by that, I mean your madness)

Rotom-W: Wisp does threaten Lucario...if it's Physical. Aura Sphere can't 2HKo with Leftovers. Hydro Pump will 2HKO.
Aegislash: Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, Crunch... With 252 HP, neither Dark Pulse or Crunch can 2HKO, Aegislash can defeat with Sacred Swords + Shadow Sneak in the SD set. The Mixed set can also deal with Mega lucario.
Talonflame: If you're going to say Priority, Lucario wins thanks to ExtremeSpeed. Extremespeed doesn't 2HKo Talonflame. CB Brave Bird has a 50% of OHKOing Mega Lucario. Flare Blittz overkills.
Genesect: dat Close Combat and Vacuum Wave Scarf genesect outspeeds and 2HKo with Thunderbolt and OHKO with Flamethrower. However, CC OHKOs.
Greninja: No, Vacuum Wave The possibility of OHKOing with Vaccum Wave are 12,5%. OHKoing with Hydro Pump are 68,5%. Loses if it has Surf or Scald. Also note the possibility of being pure Water type, then reduced the damage to a half. Greninja shouldn't switch into any non-Psychic attacks anyway. Rely on luck and probably has to suicide him, which it's not that bad for a offensive heavy threat.
Charizard: Gets hurt easily anyways. Charizard X outspeeds on turn 1 and overkills with Flare Blitz. CC are not guaranteed of OHKO. If it does miss Aura Sphere, it laughs to Special Lucario. If you are talking about Charizard Y, laughs to special Lucario at +0, can take one CC, and Fire Blast does 900 damage.
Lucario: FUCKING MIRROR MATCH
Heatran: Close Combat Special Lucario lose to a Lava Plume from SpD Heatran (not to mention offensive variants) and has 31,5% of being 3HKOed. Depends of the Lucario and the Heatran.
Gliscor: Ice Punch If it doesn't use it, it wins over Physical Lucario and even then, it doesn't OHKO. Evs can be changed to have more offensive presence and being OHKOed by Earthquake.
Garchomp: Ice Punch Wins 1vs1 with Earthquake on turn 1. It has to not be Mega to be OHKoed with Ice Punch.
Azumarill: Flash Cannon is a thing, you know... Flash cannon doesn't OHKO Azumarill. Bullet Punch can't even 3HKO.
Scizor: Obviously Not so obviously. Exist an attack named Super power which will OHKO Scizor. And the special set requires Aura Sphere to 2HKO. Close Combat doesn't 2HKo Scizor without rocks or Mega Scizor.
Ferrothorn: Also obviously Here i depends.
Tyranitar: Never depends. That Close Combat will do it. It can lost if it's special and it doesn't have Aura Sphere.
Conkeldurr: Eh. Mega Lucario obviously wouldn't try. Conkeldurr is a decentishish (not really) check/Revenge Killer, but nothing more. Drain Punch. OHKO.
Excadrill: Never depends. The Close Combat... It can suicide vs Mega Lucario.
Dragonite: That first Ice Punch is stil going to hurt... Except it's not guaranteed. Special Lucario nor less-Ice Punch lucario usually lose sgainst Dragonite.
Venusaur: Only a select few Pokemon break Venusaur anyways. Speaking of...
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 158-186 (43.4 - 51%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO it doesn't auto.win because it risk a sleep.
That's at a neutral attack. That's also considering that Sleep Powder can miss. Hope your synthesis works and that you've already Mega Evolved. It doesn't auto.win because it risk a sleep.
Mandibuzz: Whirlwind is NOT an answer to stopping a Pokemon. It has Foul play to deal with SD Lucario. And Whirlwind can be used to blow the boosts.
Gengar: Bullet Punch with Adaptability... Outspped on turn 1HKo and OHKoes with Focus Blast. Loses to the Dark move.
Espeon: Bulet Punch with Adaptability. it can suicide attack with Psychic.
Mamoswine: DETAILS! PUT IN DETAILS! Close Combat, Vacuum Wave, Bullet Punch, Flash Cannon? Not use priority against him at full health because it doesn't OHKO. It lose s1vs1 but can be suicide attack woith Earthquake.
Goodra: 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Goodra: 256-302 (66.6 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Make it +2 and read the note below the entire list. It again it can suicide attack with a Fire move to Lucario. Specially given how it can wall all special sets. In other words, it can risk staying to defeat a Special Lucario or using SD.
Alakazam: ExtremeSpeed says hi? Surprisingly to your attention, Bullet Punch doesn't OHKO (CC will). Mega Alakazam outspeed Mega Lucario , can take a CC, outspped Lucario almost always, and has a risk of OHKOing with Psychic. Special Lucario is a bit worse because the risk of Flash Cannon + Vaccum Wave not OHKOing. Alakazam should never into almost nothing to begin.
Landorus-T: -1 252 Atk Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 260-308 (68 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
First you gotta switch in. It can take one, and OHKO with Earthquake. it can take one special attack. If it has neither, it wins.
Togekiss: No, Flash Cannon and Bullet Punch Before that, gets the sets of Togekiss first and see if it hasn0't a Fire attack. And Bullet Punch doesn't OHKO. And Flash Cannon doesn't even OHKO 252/0 Togekiss.
Skarmory: Didn't we go through this before? Normally it will try to set up, use Whirlwind. It does relatively well with less-Aura Sphere Mega Lucario. And uninvested Brave Bird is a small chance of 2HKO.
Breloom: Logic is backwards here (see below note). Mach punch guaranteed OHKO.
Infernape: I'm sorry, but ExtremeSpeed? Surprisingly to you, it isn't OHKOed with Aura Sphere at +0. CC Infenrpae will demolish it.
Volcarona: DETAILS DETAILS DETAILS It's defeat by only one Fiery Dance.
Gyarados: As close as it gets, yet still falls unless this is an Assault Vest/ResTalk set. Those are your only options, yet Mega Skywalker can still set up. If you don't have Mega it, don't do it until Lucario is out. High chance of OHKo with Earthquake, CC doesn'0t even 2HKO. Special Lucario has a 37,5% chance of OHKO with Aura Sphere.
Latios: Good luck with that Dark Pulse and Shadow Ball. It outspeeds on turn 1 and risk a Psychic (clear OHKO)
Mawile: Good luck tanking Close Combat It can tank 1, given it's OHKOed by Play Rough. Same with the special set.
Trevenant: No. Shadow Ball. Here I agree because I doubt Shadow claw is doing enough to Lucario to cripple it.
Cloyster: Close Combat then ExtremeSpeed says no. Here I agree.
Pinsir: ExtremeSpeed, Ice Punch... it takes very well an Extremespeed. the best move to dealw ith it is Flash cannon from Special lucario.
Blissey: Umm...obviously. For obvious reasons.
Sableye: Good luck with that Flash Cannon. It can cripple physical version. it's risky. The funny (and disgusting part) is that Foul Play uses the Attack of the opponent, t official stat bosst of the opponent but the unofficial stat changes of the users.
Smeargle: Never bring up Smeargle, even when talking Top 50. it can Spore it and use Sash, to set up a Sticky Web, at least it's something.
Sylveon: ...no arguments here. Normally lsoes, but risk an invested Hyper Voice.
Klefki: Close Combat tanking. it can completely cripple it by his usual sets.
Clefable: Bullet Punch and Flash Cannon. Here I fully agree. Fire Blast Clefable is pretty rare.
Donphan: NO! We are NOT bringing up Elephant of Lame here... It can take one attack 8even with SR, or special sets and use Earthquake to OHKO it. At least it can't set up freely.
Galvantula: Umm...coverage move because Galvantula is frail? It can try to cripple it with Thunder hax. Special lucario can be haxed with the small chance of not 2HKO.
Starmie: Is always faster, eh? I guess Starmie can outspeed ExtremeSpeed. It has a chance of OHKO with Hydro Pump. Lucario can't at +0. Special is a bit better for Starmie because it can't 2HKop by hois STAB. And outspped Mega lucario.
Tentacruel: Is this really the best you can think of? It can Scald Lucario by hax crippling it. If ti's Special Lucario, it's not even Koed by any of his common moves, unless it's in +6 while Scald is a guaranteed 3HKO. Maybe 2HKO if you are lucky.
Forretress: ...not going to argue. here I fully agree.
Bisharp: ALWAYS RUNS BECAUSE OF FIGHT-TYPE MOVES! Obviously. But to not only Mega lucario, but with aomost any Fight move.
Salamence: Ice Punch Ice Punch it's rare, which means Salamence can risk attacking Mega lucario with Earthquake.
Thundurus: Ice Punch With doesn't even OHKOed (it's better to use CC). Also resist both STABs. Also Focus Blast OHKO and Thunderbolts 2HKO. And it can cripple it with Thunder Wave.

Exist a ot of ways to deal with Mega Lucario on turn 1. Another history is that many of these strategies are risky. Mega lucario is a "counter" of "heavy switching" (which I see are very common in the higher ladder) strategies. Obviously Lucario doesn't have sure counters, but has a number of checks depending of the set. The problem si that pokemon that do weell with one set, does worse with another. And because if it has chance of +2, it 2HKo almost everything

Let's see

With Mega lucario (and it's not the only cases), switching is the last thing you should do. The best way is sto stay into Lucario, even if an attack from him can OHKO it because if MLucario attacks, mLucario hasn't done the set up.

 

[Colonial]

Exist a ot of ways to deal with Mega Lucario on turn 1. Another history is that many of these strategies are risky. Mega lucario is a "counter" of "heavy switching" (which I see are very common in the higher ladder) strategies. Obviously Lucario doesn't have sure counters, but has a number of checks depending of the set. The problem si that pokemon that do weell with one set, does worse with another. And because if it has chance of +2, it 2HKo almost everything

Let's see

With Mega lucario (and it's not the only cases), switching is the last thing you should do. The best way is sto stay into Lucario, even if an attack from him can OHKO it because if MLucario attacks, mLucario hasn't done the set up.

So the best way to deal with Lucario is to give it a free kill every time it switches in? Brilliant.

 

[Aelsorm]

How does Lucario have an "easy time setting up?" What can he force out? Also, a common mistake made is to let Lucario force something out if you indeed have something that can be OHKOed by +0 Lucario out. It's better to sacrifice something to cripple it. If it uses SD, you can kill it with Excadrill or Tyranitar or paralyze it or something. Let's see what Lucario can set up on from the top 50:

My commentary is behind "-"
Rotom-W: no, Will-O-Wisp - WoW isn't too strong, when he can use AURA SPHERE
Aegislash: no, Sacred Sword - CHECK
Talonflame: no, Brave Bird or Flare Blitz or Will-O-Wisp - probably CHECK
Genesect: no (only when stuck to Ice Beam, which is rare) - not so rare at all
Greninja: no, Hydro Pump - He might OHKO him with Vacuum Wave (low chance) and he might survive Hydro Pump (chance that it isn't OHKO and chance that it misses) - CHECK if lucky
Charizard: no, fire moves - CHECK
Lucario: no, fighting moves - are you kidding?
Heatran: no, fire moves - Heatran is probably OHKOed with Aura Sphere
Gliscor: no. - If lucky, CHECK, if not, Ice Punch or HP Ice
Garchomp: no, Earthquake - CHECK
Azumarill: no, Play Rough or Waterfall or Superpower - CHECK
Scizor: yes - he might have Superpower
Ferrothorn: yes - YEAH, playing Ferrothorn make you lost
Tyranitar: depends. Can be forced out but you can also kill Lucario if he chooses to set up while you use EQ or Superpower. - are you kidding? Aura Sphere and he's gone
Conkeldurr: no - probably... CHECK
Excadrill: depends, for some reason as TTar. - Aura Sphere, gone
Dragonite: depends. It depends on Dragonite having Multiscale on and Lucario having Ice Punch. You can also keep Dragonite on Lucario in case it uses SD.
Venusaur: no. He's a good Lucario counter with Sleep Powder. - SLEEP CLAUSE, he might predict Sleep Powder, then you asleep another Pokémon, GG
Mandibuzz: no, uses Whirlwind. - assuming you play whirlwind... wouldnt help you so much
Gengar: no. Outspeeds Lucario on turn 1. - CHECK
Espeon: no. Outspeeds Lucario after mega evolving on turn 1, crippling him. - yeah, because every espeon runs CONFUSE RAY
Mamoswine: depends. - depends if Lucario carries STAB? 252 HP Mamoswine is OHKOed by Close Combat, Aura Sphere and Flash Cannon
Goodra: no, can take a hit and OHKO Lucario.
Alakazam: no.
Landorus-T: can take an Ice Punch and kill Lucario.
Togekiss: no, paralyzed. - However 2HKO by Bullet Punch...
Skarmory: no, Whirlwind. - yeah, but loses nice amount of HP from Aura Sphere
Breloom: no, Mach Punch.
Infernape: no, outspeeds Lucario on turn 1.
Volcarona: no. - assuming you had enough time to deal with SR
Gyarados: no. Good Lucario counter.
Latios: no, outspeeds on turn 1. - but not KILL him
Mawile: no. owned by Play Rough.
Trevenant: no. Will-O-Wisp. - no. Nasty Plot...
Cloyster: eh, depends on Shell Smash being used. - not good argument, probably same argument as depends on Nasty Plot being used. - OHKOed by Aura Sphere, enough time to set up Nasty Plot and use Vaccum Wave
Pinsir: no. - CHECK
Blissey: yes.
Sableye: no, Will-O-Wisp. - no. Nasty Plot (yeah he might have taunt, but what if there is Swords Dancer... you have to guess right)
Smeargle: depends I guess? He's not really something you set up on because he has a Sash and Spore. He cripples Lucario if Sticky Web is up.
Sylveon: yes.
Klefki: no, Thunder Wave.
Clefable: no, Fire Blast. - playing fire move doesn't mean he is dead. Clefable isn't usually Modest.

• 4 SpA Clefable Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 204-240 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• Clefable is 2HKOed... or Nasty Plot/SD and super-effective STAB... he set up great

Donphan: no, has Sturdy and Earthquake and is a tank. - CHECK
Galvantula: no, same situation as Smeargle but he has some strong attacks.

• 252 SpA Galvantula Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 195-231 (69.3 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - really STRONG...
  
• 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Galvantula: 139-164 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO (Nasty Plot and then OHKO with it, he had enough time to set up, if Galvantula isn't playing T-wave)

Starmie: no, is always faster than Lucario. - CHECK
Tentacruel: depends on luck. Tentacruel can tank a hit from any +2 move Lucario has to offer, so he can use 2 Scalds, crippling Lucario a lot with a good chance to burn. - Might be check, might be sweeped.
Forretress: yes.
Bisharp: depends on whether Bisharp is +2 when Lucario comes in. - not really, you predict badly attack and uses Sucker Punch without effect, then you get sweeped with +2 Vacuum Wave... if lucky, he will kill you straight way
Salamence: no.
Thundurus: no. - might cripple, yeah

Playing RED-MARKED Pokémon make you LOSE to Lucario, because he will have enough time to set up Nasty Plot or Swords Dance and pretty much SWEEP your team.
BOLD-MARKED means they're CHECKs - they can defeat him if standing on the field against him, but cannot be switched into...
BLUE are COUNTERS... yeah, there's only one.


Your tactic is probably to sacrifice Pokémon before Lucario set up SD or NP... yeah useful, but he might switch and in good moment return, then you have to sacrifice another Pokémon... untill you loses. You lost, but you did your job well, Lucario sweeped your team unboosted due to your sacrifices, fucking useful.

CHECK is not reason for letting him being in OU.
COUNTERS are the reason. So let's everyone play Gyarados -.-

 

[Aelsorm]

So the best way to deal with Lucario is to give it a free kill every time it switches in? Brilliant.

exactly my point

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

But if you can see, not all pokemon can kill MLucario at +0.

But revenge kill is an argument against the brokeness of a pokemon, and if a pokemon is very easy to revenge kill and has to set up to be really unstoppable (MegaLucario). See this differences

With STAB, the Special Attack requires to guaranteed to faint a Mega lucario with Focus Blast is 192. To OHKO a Kyogre with Thunder, you require 456 Base Special Attack + STAB (I had to use A Choice Specs Deoxys-A and imagine that Specs = STAB to see a way to OHKO a Kyogre.

I agree off Aersolm calculations, with the extra notion that if latios uses Psychic (and not Psyshock) it can OHKO Mega Lucario.

 

[Photofluid]

What? Nothing in this post makes sense. What happens if Genesect sets up a Shift Gear on a switch? Torn-T was banned because it was faster then ScarfTar and everything below 120 and killed you with 2 Hurricanes in PermaRain. VoltTurn is in no way broken. Also "against the offensive clause" What kind of argument is that?

(Again, I'm most likely going to vote to ban Lucario only, but Genesect is obviously a huge threat)

As a matter of supplement,

1. Shift gear set is not considered threatening at all, it was not like Gen V when the majority of the meta is quite squishy.

2. For Torn-T, the major reason it is so tough to deal with is that it got regenerator, take that away Keldeo is a lot more brutal. The role of U-turn here is that, it is not going to abuse regenerator nearly as well without it, U-turn provides so much extra switching chance.

3. I don't remember the exact wording, but the offensive clause is something like "being capable of sweeping through the majority of the meta with very little support", Excadrill definitely fulfills it very easily with 135 atk, some 160-170 quivalent speed in the sand, and STAB EQ with rock coverage move.

 

[RotomPoison]

As a matter of supplement,

1. Shift gear set is not considered threatening at all, it was not like Gen V when the majority of the meta is quite squishy.

2. For Torn-T, the major reason it is so tough to deal with is that it got regenerator, take that away Keldeo is a lot more brutal. The role of U-turn here is that, it is not going to abuse regenerator nearly as well without it, U-turn provides so much extra switching chance.

3. I don't remember the exact wording, but the offensive clause is something like "being capable of sweeping through the majority of the meta with very little support", Excadrill definitely fulfills it very easily with 135 atk, some 160-170 quivalent speed in the sand, and STAB EQ with rock coverage move.

Shift Gear is definitely a threat. Genesect is not weak to any priority and gets his own, Iron Head is a much better STAB then people give it credit for, and I'm sure you can provide a common example of a reliable counter to it besides Hippowdon (keep in mind Shift Gear is not always ESpeed Blaze Kick and Iron Head)

No. Torn-T was extremelly fast and had an extremelly powerful Hurricane. Get the "VoltTurn is broken" arguement out of this thread

No. That is not an "offensive clause" that's just the S rank definition in the viability rankings. There is no such thing as an offensive clause and there are definitly no definable numbers for it if it did exist.

 

[Serrak]

I'm a little confused on what "cherrypicking sentences" has to do with maturity. Would you mind elaborating on that, or are you just trying to pick on someone to look smart and superior?

Besides, I responded to pretty much every sentence in that post of yours.

It's spelled "irrelevant."

if rocks allow Mega Luke to beat things that could counter it, putting a good rocker on a team alongside Luke is a good idea.

Why does this explain how "metagame trends" are irrelevant?

What's a "good rocker?" If you want to use Stealth Rock, you want a "good rocker" no matter what. Everyone wants a "good rocker" in their team regardless of Lucario being in it.

You can't consistently rely on SR to be on the field. What if Defog is used after your "good rocker" dies? I'm not denying that it helps Lucario a lot and neither is anyone else. But it's not a very strong argument in favor of Lucario going to ubers if Rapid Spin and Defog are on a lot of teams since you can't rely on pulling the SR card when someone brings up Volcarona or Moltres.

Notice that it costs a turn to set up SR, a turn to bring in your SR user and a turn to switch out, which in this fast-paced metagame isn't exactly a good idea to do more than once. The slightest mistake can give an opportunity for something to set up on you. It's not very convenient.

The fact that Lucario even has to rely on SR in the first place is a point against it while also being a point in its favor. The world isn't black and white: things have advantages and disadvantages.

Ugh, this sentence doesn't make any sense. What does not being death fodder have to do with Lucario getting a SD? Hell, if you're not death fodder, then you can take a turn to KO or cripple Lucario.

Only if your name is Tyranitar, Excadrill or something else I'm forgetting.

We're assuming high-level competitive play. You're going to use your Lucario counter/check as conservatively as possible if you see it in team preview. You don't just snap your fingers and magically remove the Lucario counter.

Gliscor can always take an Ice Punch and any special move Lucario has to attack him with, as long as Lucario isn't boosted. If Lucario already has a SD, then you can use Protect to scout for Crunch or Ice Punch. It's very unlikely for Lucario to use SD twice, and it's overkill too.

Ok. Going by your definition of counters, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Mega Venusaur, Gyarados, Zapdos, Volcarona, Moltres and Wishmence and maybe others I'm forgetting can all take on Crunch SD Lucario. Aegislash, Jellicent, Mega Venusaur, Gyarados, Volcarona and Moltres can take on SD IP Lucario. NP Lucario has fewer counters but it has less damage potential than SD Lucario, and it suffers from a worse case of four moveslot syndrome. Depending on which set it has, it can be countered by Aegislash, Mega Venusaur, Gyarados, Moltres, Zapdos, Volcarona and so on.

Yup, that's why Landorus-T isn't listed under IP Lucario's counters!

Crunch 3HKOs Aegislash. So what? Aegislash KOs it back.

I've already pointed out that versatility is what makes Lucario dangerous in the first place. This is nothing new. Fortunately, Dark Pulse Lucario is a lot easier to check than Vacuum Wave Lucario, but if you use Vacuum Wave instead of Aura Sphere, you have no way of dealing with the most common Pokemon in the game: Rotom-W.

If Lucario can't set up on the vast majority of OU Pokemon, then what the hell is he doing in ubers?

Actually, pro-ban people agree with me on Lucario's checks generally being checked by the same things. As I pointed out to someone else, most checks I listed actually can check Lucario's most common sets.

Also, here's a more important question: when did I ever say anything about people ignoring the checks I listed? I believe I meant counters.

I think it's best I repeat a point I made earlier in this post. I pointed out that, in this fast-paced metagame, it's generally not a good idea to just waste time setting up SR because you lose momentum. If you don't need Landorus-T for something else on your opponent's team, then you've wasted 3 turns trying to set up SR: 1 to bring Landorus-T in, 1 to set up SR and 1 to switch out, when you could have been doing other things to keep your momentum. You lose momentum when you spend time using SR. And don't get me started on Defog and Rapid Spin...

You guys act like using SR has no costs whatsoever and it's really easy to keep on the field, despite the ubiquity of Defog and Rapid Spin and despite the loss of momentum.

There's a reason why hyper offense isn't very common (thanks to Genesect). I think the metagame is leaning towards bulky offense/balanced gameplay where it's not hard at all to pull off a Defog or a Rapid Spin.

You may have responded to every sentence, but not the important parts of them, as I pointed out (which you failed to include in the quote). The point I was attempting to make that you don't seem to be getting is that if rocks are found on just 25% of teams (they're not) and mega-Luke goes well with rocks, there's a good chance that a good number of those teams are carrying Mega Luke, so it will frequently show up alongside rocks.

I included that last bit because now you're directly contradicting yourself. If the metagame is offensive enough that it's hard to get rocks up, it's offensive enough to make it hard to take them down. I wasn't trying to say that rocks are a guarentee, just that they have to be considered. You can only stop a defog with a faster taunt, but pressure can keep them from getting the chance. And seriously, how hard are 1st turn rocks to get up?

The sentence that doesn't seem to make sense, doesn't make sense because you removed it from context. Quote me all at once or not at all please. Mega Luke threatens Exca, T-Tar, Ferrothorn, Gengar (I'm assuming it's M-evo'd for all of these because we're looking for things it can threaten to boost on, not M-evo on), Infernape lacking mach punch, Terrakion, Heatran, Magnezone, Blissey, and a myriad of other common things. I'm not saying these things are meat-targets that won't do anything back, but if they're needed to check or counter something else dangerous on the opposing team, you can't take the risk. Mega Luke will often forgo it's first possible setup in an attempt to KO to punish the opponent's expectation that it will boost. Showing a tendency to attack will make it easier to boost later game.

"We're assuming high-level competitive play. You're going to use your Lucario counter/check as conservatively as possible if you see it in team preview. You don't just snap your fingers and magically remove the Lucario counter." I have no idea why you said this. I wasn't even talking about Lucario counters at the time, I was saying Luke is threatening something that you need to counter one of Luke's team mates. You can switch and give Luke the setup, or stay in and possibly die to the attack, in which case the lost setup opportunity was worth giving up for M-Luke.

People keep saying you don't seem to get checks and counters because you don't understand why Luke is at +2. There is no "my" definition of counters, there is only one: a counter can switch in on any move and handle the threat in some way. This definition assumes the subject (in this case M-Luke) has threatened something out, which means that +2 is a valid assumption. I've never attempted to debate that Lando-t counters crunch SD Lucario, and niether has anyone else. That's not important, because you don't know that it's Crunch SD Lucario until it's revealed it's coverage move. Since you have to try countering it (by definition) before you know the set, the only true counters can handle any set because you don't know what you're bringing it into. Things like Gliscor and Lando-T can only counter it if you correctly guess the set, which is not something you should be relying on. The only things you admitted counter all variants are Mega Venusaur, Gyarados, Volcarona and Moltres. These are the only hard counters, and these are therefore the only relevant counters (BTW, thank you about the spelling thing. I thought it was "ant", but wasn't sure so I changed it. Spelling is not my strongest suit). Using anything else to counter M-Luke is luck reliant (you know, unless you've come up with some more hard counters).

I wasn't trying to say M-Luke should 3HKO Aegislash, I was trying to imply that damage would help a team mate finish it off.

Uncounterable and difficult to counter do not necessitate a ban. Hydriegon was uncounterable last gen, yet because it was so easily checked it was fine. The problem with M-Luke is that in addition to being so hard to counter, it outspeeds most of OU, has enough bulk to take strong neutral hits and weak SE ones, and commonly carries priority to beat some (emphasis, some) scarfers and other priority users. The sum of these parts is why we want M-Luke out.

 

[Colonial]

But if you can see, not all pokemon can kill MLucario at +0.

But revenge kill is an argument against the brokeness of a pokemon, and if a pokemon is very easy to revenge kill and has to set up to be really unstoppable (MegaLucario). See this differences

With STAB, the Special Attack requires to guaranteed to faint a Mega lucario with Focus Blast is 192. To OHKO a Kyogre with Thunder, you require 456 Base Special Attack + STAB (I had to use A Choice Specs Deoxys-A and imagine that Specs = STAB to see a way to OHKO a Kyogre.

I agree off Aersolm calculations, with the extra notion that if latios uses Psychic (and not Psyshock) it can OHKO Mega Lucario.

Uhh... it's already been explained to death why, exactly, revenge killing is an irrelevant argument. It applies to every pokemon, and less then normal to Megaluke because it has priority attacks, so it may be able to KO your scarfer anyway if the scarfer is frail/weak to the priority move/already damaged, or if Megaluke has set up.

I fail to see the relevance of the kyogre point. It doesn't matter how Megaluke compares to Ubers, Ubers is a banlist and things that don't do well there but are too much for OU will still get banned.

 

[Wumgum]

Uhh... it's already been explained to death why, exactly, revenge killing is an irrelevant argument. It applies to every pokemon

Some pokemon are harder to revenge kill than others - that's the point of the argument. Surely you're not going to tell me that revenge killing a +2 Weavile is the same thing of revenge killing a Dragonite with Multiscale intact, a DD boost and Extremespeed right?

 

[Colonial]

I already responded to that. Megaluke is not easily revenge killed because of how strong it's priority is, it's a lot closer to the Dragonite in that example then the Weavile. I also said that in the comment you're replying to.

 

[Photofluid]

Shift Gear is definitely a threat. Genesect is not weak to any priority and gets his own, Iron Head is a much better STAB then people give it credit for, and I'm sure you can provide a common example of a reliable counter to it besides Hippowdon (keep in mind Shift Gear is not always ESpeed Blaze Kick and Iron Head)

No. Torn-T was extremelly fast and had an extremelly powerful Hurricane. Get the "VoltTurn is broken" arguement out of this thread

No. That is not an "offensive clause" that's just the S rank definition in the viability rankings. There is no such thing as an offensive clause and there are definitly no definable numbers for it if it did exist.

I don't mean SG set is completely inviable, just not the best thing you may try to look for, both as a sweeper and as a Genesect on the table.

And unless the ban history is lying, I am pretty sure that Torn-T was banned more for regenerator, Hurricane spam is powerful, but not across the line by its own. Again, switching is a millions times easier with U-turn under your belt, the relationship is not necessarily obvious but it is there.

Btw, I am not withdrawing voltturn here because it is basically the defining feature of Genesect.

Offensive clause is no longer applied as a hard core standard but I am pretty sure I have seen it in some official thread that it still serves as a reference. While it is not entire objective to determine the exact amount of threats it swept through, which is likely the reason it is not hold strict, it is still an easier way to achieve a consensus. Anyway, let's not get too far because I am just trying to distinct Genesect and Excadrill.

 

[RotomPoison]

I don't mean SG set is completely inviable, just not the best thing you may try to look for, both as a sweeper and as a Genesect on the table.

And unless the ban history is lying, I am pretty sure that Torn-T was banned more for regenerator, Hurricane spam is powerful, but not across the line by its own. Again, switching is a millions times easier with U-turn under your belt, the relationship is not necessarily obvious but it is there.

Btw, I am not withdrawing voltturn here because it is basically the defining feature of Genesect.

Offensive clause is no longer applied as a hard core standard but I am pretty sure I have seen it in some official thread that it still serves as a reference. While it is not entire objective to determine the exact amount of threats it swept through, which is likely the reason it is not hold strict, it is still an easier way to achieve a consensus. Anyway, let's not get too far because I am just trying to distinct Genesect and Excadrill.

Stop it. You're just wrong and don't care to admit it. You're against VoltTurn for some reason and apply it to something like Torn-T saying it was the main reason it got banned and that's obviously not true. Torn-T can still U-turn yet no one is complaining. Stop making stuff up when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Excadrill and Genesect are obviously completely different and no one needs you to prove that.

Also, "offensive clause" never existed/applied.

For reference:

Keep my words, VoltTurn will eventually receive some form of general bans, or a major nerf from GF.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

I already responded to that. Megaluke is not easily revenge killed because of how strong it's priority is, it's a lot closer to the Dragonite in that example then the Weavile. I also said that in the comment you're replying to.

It's way closer to Weavile than Dragonite In fact, (and no, don't use Empoleon VS Lucario)

252 SpA Empoleon Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 177-208 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Empoleon Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 151-178 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

User: But how Weavile, of all things, can tank better a Surf from a Water-type?

It does. The frail Weavile can tank better Fire, Water, Electric, Ground, Flying, Psychic, Ghost and Dark attacks better. (In underlined, typings with equally effectiveness).

Edit: And if by revenge kill means being faster, good luck with Weavile high 125 Base Attack.

And if you try to defend that any pokemon is Counter able, like Many Ubers, another Uber pokemon. In particular, one that is rather frail.

252 SpA Empoleon Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mewtwo: 144-169 (40.7 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Ranger Mike]

Well we are approaching te day that changes the meta forever good luck voters

 

[Colonial]

It's way closer to Weavile than Dragonite In fact, (and no, don't use Empoleon VS Lucario)

252 SpA Empoleon Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 177-208 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Empoleon Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 151-178 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

User: But how Weavile, of all things, can tank better a Surf from a Water-type?

It does. The frail Weavile can tank better Fire, Water, Electric, Ground, Flying, Psychic, Ghost and Dark attacks better. (In underlined, typings with equally effectiveness).

Edit: And if by revenge kill means being faster, good luck with Weavile high 125 Base Attack.

And if you try to defend that any pokemon is Counter able, like Many Ubers, another Uber pokemon. In particular, one that is rather frail.

252 SpA Empoleon Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mewtwo: 144-169 (40.7 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

No... by the Luke being closer to the Dragonite I was referring to the access to priority. We're talking about revenge killing here, the revenge killer has to live a likely-boosted priority move. Weavile has priority too but it's a lot weaker then Luke's or Dragonite's. And how is Weavile's speed relevant when we're talking about scarfers?

I have no idea where you got Empoleon from, I never mentioned Pengu. Your argument seems to be that Pengu can dent Uber pokemon? Tell me what I'm missing, it has to be something.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

1. Well, inferior at the least, yes, even with the surprising factor being factored in. Unprepared is not an execuse, and btw, the cost of guessing wrong is nowhere as high as, say, MLucario. One important side note about the ebelt set is that, even if you do manage to keep the illusion, it still does not work on pokemon of 100 speed.

2. Genesect is just "one of the best abuser", in last generation, Landorus-I and Tornadus-T was banned with voltturn being a core reason. It seem to me if this trend continues, a very considerable pool of pokemon is going to be banned for this very reason, especially when GF has been continuously increasing the amount of voltturners in the meta. Its effect, however, could only be seen after the Mevo meta have settled down a bit, as many of them takes the form Mevos which currently has the slot being dominated by the sweepers.

Btw, Perma sand rush Excadrill is outright against the offensive clause, not a good example if at all.

As a side note, what a nice coincident if it is, 3.5 of the 5 most used pokemon are consistent Voltturn users (don't know the detail about CB Talonflame, I therefore count it half).

I don't mean SG set is completely inviable, just not the best thing you may try to look for, both as a sweeper and as a Genesect on the table.

And unless the ban history is lying, I am pretty sure that Torn-T was banned more for regenerator, Hurricane spam is powerful, but not across the line by its own. Again, switching is a millions times easier with U-turn under your belt, the relationship is not necessarily obvious but it is there.

Btw, I am not withdrawing voltturn here because it is basically the defining feature of Genesect.

Offensive clause is no longer applied as a hard core standard but I am pretty sure I have seen it in some official thread that it still serves as a reference. While it is not entire objective to determine the exact amount of threats it swept through, which is likely the reason it is not hold strict, it is still an easier way to achieve a consensus. Anyway, let's not get too far because I am just trying to distinct Genesect and Excadrill.

I don't understand why you keep saying its alternate sets aren't as good as they are. I'd say none of its sets are ban worthy in their own right, it's the fact that you can't approach it correctly because if you assume it's a scarf and its really an EBelt, you lose a pokemon half the time, or if its a SG set it can sweep half your team. I just don't understand your reasoning or evidence.

As for the Excadrill thing, it shows that a specific pokemon can abuse a playing style to broken levels, without the playing style being broken. In that case, we ban the pokemon and barely even mention the playing style, and I don't know why you insist on discussing all of volt turn when its just Genesect that is being tested (and hopefully banned).

 

[Photofluid]

Stop it. You're just wrong and don't care to admit it. You're against VoltTurn for some reason and apply it to something like Torn-T saying it was the main reason it got banned and that's obviously not true. Torn-T can still U-turn yet no one is complaining. Stop making stuff up when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Excadrill and Genesect are obviously completely different and no one needs you to prove that.

Also, "offensive clause" never existed/applied.

For reference:

Nope, I am not against voltturn in particular, just that I spot voltturn being some "potential" overpowered so I think it is worth the discussion. And btw, almost every single argument we have around Genesect is how it can just switch out with U-turn to gain momentum, or powerful U-turn for the Band set. Coverage the like may be discussed, but it is generally agreed what separates Genesect and the majority of the meta is U-turn.

As a side note, Ebelt set is never a good set by itself and SG/RP set was seldom if ever found threatening when we are having things likes Dragonite and WP Aegislash in the same meta.

The argument here is that basically every single pokemon with decent matchup against a significant proportion of the meta with voltturn is resembling the current state of Genesect. While most may not have the coverage of Genesect, this can be compensated with even more powerful attack stats, and powerful high BP STAB move(110*1.5 = 165, close to a SE of Genesect coverage move which is 90*180). Download is a good ability so I am not factoring the ability issue here.

Existing examples are Keldeo and Terrakion, ofc they do not get voltturn by themselves, but what if we have similar pokemon which is getting it in the future? Or perhaps GF simply decides to introduce the third hit-and-switch move? Do we just ban out every single moderately voltturner just because it possesses such an asset? If we take a look on the current meta we have, adding such a move to any pokemon of A ranking could possibly make them another Genesect.

Here is where the argument arises, how do we actually want to deal with it? While I am personally pro-OU on Genesect in this particular suspect, I can foresee how voltturn may become a meta dominating mechanism, kinda like weather in the BW era. Back at that time we have accepted weather as a "feature" of the game and the OU meta. So, do we embrace it this time? Or do we need to somehow constrain it to a larger extend, like the sleep clause for instance? This may not be an immediate problem, but I think it definitely worth more discussion, especially when we already have 3.5 of our top 5 usage pokemon being consistent voltturn user as stated.

For Torn-T, again, I am still pretty sure that regenerator, which makes it too difficult to handle, is core part of the reason it is banned, as cited from OU ban history of Smogon.

On top of that, I think it is generally accepted that offensive usage of regenerator is only optimized with the present of voltturn. We only have two offensive regenerator in the entire game. And both learn U-turn, even one of them, namely Mienshao, clearly does not seem so. Hell, even the thoerymoning thread combines regenerator with pivots. As a side note though, keep in mind HO-OH has higher SpD than its Atk.

A bit off topic, but while the major reason Torn-T is banned is not U-turn itself, Torn-T as a whole is definitely not entirely irrelevant to the topic as far as I have concerned, I am simply spotting so much similarities it shares with Genesect.

And for the offensive clause, well my apologize for having it named wrongly, which is characteristic in exact wording, is definitely used as some kind of references

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/kangaskhanite-is-now-banned-to-ubers.3495351/

I am lazy to further explain so I am also posting the Torn-T thing here

http://www.smogon.com/tiers/ou/ban_history

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Nope, I am not against voltturn in particular, just that I spot voltturn being some "potential" overpowered so I think it is worth the discussion. And btw, almost every single argument we have around Genesect is how it can just switch out with U-turn to gain momentum, or powerful U-turn for the Band set. Coverage the like may be discussed, but it is generally agreed what separates Genesect and the majority of the meta is U-turn.

As a side note, Ebelt set is never a good set by itself and SG/RP set was seldom if ever found threatening when we are having things likes Dragonite and WP Aegislash in the same meta.

The argument here is that basically every single pokemon with decent matchup against a significant proportion of the meta with voltturn is resembling the current state of Genesect. While most may not have the coverage of Genesect, this can be compensated with even more powerful attack stats, and powerful high BP STAB move(110*1.5 = 165, close to a SE of Genesect coverage move which is 90*180). Download is a good ability so I am not factoring the ability issue here.

Existing examples are Keldeo and Terrakion, ofc they do not get voltturn by themselves, but what if we have similar pokemon which is getting it in the future? Or perhaps GF simply decides to introduce the third hit-and-switch move? Do we just ban out every single moderately voltturner just because it possesses such an asset? If we take a look on the current meta we have, adding such a move to any pokemon of A ranking could possibly make them another Genesect.

Here is where the argument arises, how do we actually want to deal with it? While I am personally pro-OU on Genesect in this particular suspect, I can foresee how voltturn may become a meta dominating mechanism, kinda like weather in the BW era. Back at that time we have accepted weather as a "feature" of the game and the OU meta. So, do we embrace it this time? Or do we need to somehow constrain it to a larger extend, like the sleep clause for instance? This may not be an immediate problem, but I think it definitely worth more discussion, especially when we already have 3.5 of our top 5 usage pokemon being consistent voltturn user as stated.

For Torn-T, again, I am still pretty sure that regenerator, which makes it too difficult to handle, is core part of the reason it is banned, as cited from OU ban history of Smogon.

On top of that, I think it is generally accepted that offensive usage of regenerator is only optimized with the present of voltturn. We only have two offensive regenerator in the entire game. And both learn U-turn, even one of them, namely Mienshao, clearly does not seem so. Hell, even the thoerymoning thread combines regenerator with pivots. As a side note though, keep in mind HO-OH has higher SpD than its Atk.

A bit off topic, but while the major reason Torn-T is banned is not U-turn itself, Torn-T as a whole is definitely not entirely irrelevant to the topic as far as I have concerned, I am simply spotting so much similarities it shares with Genesect.

And for the offensive clause, well my apologize for having it named wrongly, which is characteristic in exact wording, is definitely used as some kind of references

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/kangaskhanite-is-now-banned-to-ubers.3495351/

I am lazy to further explain so I am also posting the Torn-T thing here

http://www.smogon.com/tiers/ou/ban_history

This thread is about Lucarionite, Genesect, and Deoxys-S, not about Volt Turn. Volt Turn is a playing style, and while annoying, is not up for discussion at this time. Besides, without Genesect, I don't see how its broken anyway.

Genesect on the other hand is completely broken. It can abuse volt turn to a ridiculous level, can set up sweep, can break walls, can revenge kill, and be totally unpredictable while doing it. I don't see how you can say volt turn is too centralizing, and not want to ban Genesect.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

No... by the Luke being closer to the Dragonite I was referring to the access to priority. We're talking about revenge killing here, the revenge killer has to live a likely-boosted priority move. Weavile has priority too but it's a lot weaker then Luke's or Dragonite's. And how is Weavile's speed relevant when we're talking about scarfers?

I have no idea where you got Empoleon from, I never mentioned Pengu. Your argument seems to be that Pengu can dent Uber pokemon? Tell me what I'm missing, it has to be something.

The calculation of Empoleon is for reason that I won't mention to you. Mainly becuase it's onme of the waters with high Special Attack in OU.

The casuality is that Weavile (when I made the psot before, it didn't percate in) has relatively strong priority in the form in ice Shard, outspeeds even more of the metagame than Lucario, can use Swords Dance like Lucario, and can boost its Attack with a Life Orb (or without SD, even a Choice Band). Obviously Weavile is not broken because it has no Adaptability, has Dark/Ice and not Steel/Fighting, and even though it has tNasty Plot and the movepool to abuse it, it doesn't have the special attack top be special, or even mixed. I don't talk about the power of his moves because in hgen VI it gained Icicle Crash and the buffed Knock Off.

 

[Chiki]

The point I was attempting to make that you don't seem to be getting is that if rocks are found on just 25% of teams

If you honestly didn't see them you're probably blind. But it's more likely that you just practice sophistry and are selectively ignoring the things I say.

You might not be able to understand my argument, but I hope that's not the case because I want to have an intelligent conversation, so I'm going to assume you're selectively ignoring them instead. Here are the points you need to stop ignoring:

1. It costs 3 turns to set up SR if you need to bring the SR user in, 3 valuable turns when battles on average take 20-30 turns. 3 turns when you could have been doing something else.
2. Defog + Rapid Spin are even more common than they used to be. It's not

It doesn't matter if Mega Lucario users use SR more often than everyone else. It doesn't change the fact that SR is hard to maintain and SR costs turns to set up. You really need to grow out of your selective ignorance issue.

I included that last bit because now you're directly contradicting yourself.

I don't think you know what a contradiction is. A contradiction is when a proposition A is made and another proposition, not A is made. I have no idea where I "directly contradicted myself."

If the metagame is offensive enough that it's hard to get rocks up, it's offensive enough to make it hard to take them down. I wasn't trying to say that rocks are a guarentee, just that they have to be considered. You can only stop a defog with a faster taunt, but pressure can keep them from getting the chance. And seriously, how hard are 1st turn rocks to get up?

It's spelled "guarantee."

Oh look, I was right, there is no contradiction. I'm not denying that SR has to be considered; I'd really appreciate it if you could tell me where I said they were useless? Selective ignorance is one thing, but outright lying about my viewpoint is just low. It's true that Defog + Rapid Spin costs turns too. No one is denying that. But my argument is merely pointing out that SR has that same cost.

1st turn SR is very unreliable since your opponent might choose something to deal with your SR lead and you might not be able to get it up. It works, but not every time.

I have no idea why you said this.

It might not be obvious to you, but it's probably obvious to everyone apart from you. Here is what you said:

If you need your T-Tar to counter something threatening like a Talonflame, you can't risk losing it. A smart player may see that your T-tar is the only thing standing in the way of talon cleaning you late game, and may want to simply remove it.

Here is the simple thing. You're not going to bring in Tyranitar often if the opponent has Talonflame. Similarly, you're not going to bring in your Lucario counter/check often if the opponent has Lucario. Is that clear enough for you?

There is no "my" definition of counters, there is only one: a counter can switch in on any move and handle the threat in some way.

I don't care whose it is. You were the one who presented it. It's a stupid definition, because Charizard has no counters at all according to it. But it's clear that each set has counters. Therefore, the definition of "counter" that was provided was wrong.

I've never attempted to debate that Lando-t counters crunch SD Lucario, and niether has anyone else. That's not important

Lol, how is it not important if a Lucario set has hard counters?

I wasn't trying to say M-Luke should 3HKO Aegislash, I was trying to imply that damage would help a team mate finish it off.

That has nothing to do with Mega Lucario being uber.

Hydriegon was uncounterable last gen, yet because it was so easily checked it was fine.

Hydreigon is not uncounterable in the same sense as Charizard is. Charizard can choose between setting up with physical and special moves. Hydreigon can't. There are different senses of uncounterable. Hydreigon was the hit-and-run kind of uncounterable.

Genesect and Greninja are incredibly difficult to counter due to U-turn, but they're not uncounterable in the same sense Charizard is.

I'm going to repeat this important point everyone is ignoring:

If the definition of a counter is something that can switch into any set of a given Pokemon and force the given Pokemon out, then Pokemon like Charizard have no counters in OU, yet no one argues that they should be banned.

The next post I make will be a very long and detailed post defending Mega Lucario.

 

[Wobbyble]

In this thread:

• Revengers are exactly the same thing as counters
• Celebi is OP
• Should've banned SR Gen 5
• Deo-S is trash
• Why aren't we discussing Mega Charizards?
• Togekiss is a great Mega-Luke counter
• The definitions of "open" and "closed"
  
• Mega Luke is against the moral of Pokemon

Well I'm out.

IMO the variety of sets that Luke and Genesect can run, and the strength of each of these individual sets that severely limit the number of safe switch ins they have to almost non-existence, causes them to warrant a ban.

I've seen like 1 Deo-S in OU in over 80 OU battles, and I've never used it, so I'll with hold from disclosing any thoughts on it.