XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[Chiki]

Since a few people already responded to Colonial's post, I think I don't need to anymore.

The argument is that SR weakens Lucario's counters and checks: Talonflame, Gyarados, Moltres, Zapdos, Volcarona and so on. Here is how to address the argument:

1) SR isn't as prevalent as it used to be thanks to Defog. It's easier to keep off the field and people are less willing to use it.
2) If you're using a team with Moltres, Volcarona or Talonflame, you're almost certainly going to have a spinner or a Defog user. It's not a good idea to use bulky Moltres if bulky Moltres starts off with less than 50% HP. This isn't going to change if Lucarionite gets banned.
3) Gyarados has Intimidate so he can weaken Lucario and easily take a hit regardless of SR weakness.

I guess Zapdos is the unfortunate one out of the three.

Also, there's still more counters apart from these guys. Why are you guys conveniently ignoring Aegislash, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Jellicent, Mega Venusaur who ruin Lucario depending on his set?

 

[Aelsorm]

Since a few people already responded to Colonial's post, I think I don't need to anymore.

The argument is that SR weakens Lucario's counters and checks: Talonflame, Gyarados, Moltres, Zapdos, Volcarona and so on. Here is how to address the argument:

1) SR isn't as prevalent as it used to be thanks to Defog. It's easier to keep off the field and people are less willing to use it.
2) If you're using a team with Moltres, Volcarona or Talonflame, you're almost certainly going to have a spinner or a Defog user. It's not a good idea to use bulky Moltres if bulky Moltres starts off with less than 50% HP. This isn't going to change if Lucarionite gets banned.
3) Gyarados has Intimidate so he can weaken Lucario and easily take a hit regardless of SR weakness.

I guess Zapdos is the unfortunate one out of the three.

Also, there's still more counters apart from these guys. Why are you guys conveniently ignoring Aegislash, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Jellicent, Mega Venusaur who ruin Lucario depending on his set?

+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 184-217 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not so weakened, but I admit, Gyarados is the only counter to Lucario!
Let's everyone play Gyarados in team! (or Zapdos, if you wanna be original)

 

[Chiki]

Sleep Talk Gyarados is an underrated tank. Has anyone used him? He's pretty good, especially with the new Sleep mechanics.

 

[Colonial]

Sleep Talk Gyarados is an underrated tank. Has anyone used him? He's pretty good, especially with the new Sleep mechanics.

I agree, Gyarados is a great pokemon. However, how is having to use Gyarados/Zapdos on every team just to keep Luke in check balanced? Gastrodon counters Kyogre, because of that Kyogre should be allowed in OU, right? We can just all use Gastrodon!

And defog hasn't made SR less prevalent. Yes it's easier to get rid of but it's still on every team and it should be taken into account. Intimidate only applies if Luke is physical, the special set is obviously unaffected.

 

[Aelsorm]

I agree, Gyarados is a great pokemon. However, how is having to use Gyarados/Zapdos on every team just to keep Luke in check balanced? Gastrodon counters Kyogre, because of that Kyogre should be allowed in OU, right? We can just all use Gastrodon!

That was my point.
EXACTLY!

 

[Chiki]

I agree, Gyarados is a great pokemon. However, how is having to use Gyarados/Zapdos on every team just to keep Luke in check balanced? Gastrodon counters Kyogre, because of that Kyogre should be allowed in OU, right? We can just all use Gastrodon!

And defog hasn't made SR less prevalent. Yes it's easier to get rid of but it's still on every team and it should be taken into account. Intimidate only applies if Luke is physical, the special set is obviously unaffected.

I'd agree that Mega Lucario was uber if that were true. But there's a lot more counters to Lucario. Why are we conveniently ignoring them? I listed them some time ago and everyone has just been ignoring Lucario's other potential counters.

It's not possible to find a pokemon which can counter every set of a given Pokemon. Look at mixed Aegislash. It can wreck its usual counters with HP Ice and/or Shadow Ball. You're going to need different Pokemon to deal with that threat. The same applies to Mega Lucario; we're not screaming for Aegislash's head, are we?

You're going to have to admit that it's not an uber characteristic if a Pokemon might have different counters depending on different sets. Otherwise you'll have to ban Aegislash, Gengar, Garchomp, Tyranitar and others.

 

[Colonial]

I'd agree that Mega Lucario was uber if that were true. But there's a lot more counters to Lucario. Why are we conveniently ignoring them? I listed them some time ago and everyone has just been ignoring Lucario's other potential counters.

It's not possible to find a pokemon which can counter every set of a given Pokemon. Look at mixed Aegislash. It can wreck its usual counters with HP Ice and/or Shadow Ball. You're going to need different Pokemon to deal with that threat. The same applies to Mega Lucario; we're not screaming for Aegislash's head, are we?

You're going to have to admit that it's not an uber characteristic if a Pokemon might have different counters depending on different sets. Otherwise you'll have to ban Aegislash, Gengar, Garchomp, Tyranitar and others.

The problem is that, not only does Luke need different counters for different sets, but that those counters fail to do anything to it's other sets. Lando-T dies to special, even Gyarados and Volcarona and other pokemon that apparently counter Megaluke die if it runs Stone Edge, an overlooked move in my opinion. Luke's movepool is so good that it can run something, but not everything, to deal with checks and counters and essentially choose exactly what it wants to destroy. As opposed to stuff like Aegis, where a pokemon that counters one set will still do very well against any other. Another thing is that you need multiple checks to Luke, different ones for each set, because otherwise you are likely to gets wept. That limits teambuilding, as one has to/should have several pokemon from a small list of things for one threat. Finally, everything you didn't list outright loses to Megaluke. The fact Luke can dominate most of the metagame, and can choose exactly which pokemon it doesn't dominate with it's different sets, makes it overcentralizing- too much strain on teambuilding, too much power to allow it to completely annihilate you if your check is eliminated somehow.

 

[Serrak]

Since a few people already responded to Colonial's post, I think I don't need to anymore.

The argument is that SR weakens Lucario's counters and checks: Talonflame, Gyarados, Moltres, Zapdos, Volcarona and so on. Here is how to address the argument:

1) SR isn't as prevalent as it used to be thanks to Defog. It's easier to keep off the field and people are less willing to use it.
2) If you're using a team with Moltres, Volcarona or Talonflame, you're almost certainly going to have a spinner or a Defog user. It's not a good idea to use bulky Moltres if bulky Moltres starts off with less than 50% HP. This isn't going to change if Lucarionite gets banned.
3) Gyarados has Intimidate so he can weaken Lucario and easily take a hit regardless of SR weakness.

I guess Zapdos is the unfortunate one out of the three.

Also, there's still more counters apart from these guys. Why are you guys conveniently ignoring Aegislash, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Jellicent, Mega Venusaur who ruin Lucario depending on his set?

Metagame-wide trends of how many teams carry rocks are irrelevent; if rocks allow Mega Luke to beat things that could counter it, putting a good rocker on a team alongside Luke is a good idea. Spinning and defogging can be stopped either by spinblocking or taunt respectively, and both can be prevented through sheer offensive pressure (gee, like the kind Mega Luke provides). If these are your dedicated Mega Lucario counters, then you can lose a match because you were unable to get rid of rocks. That seems pretty broken.

We aren't conviniently ignoring them, the earliest arguments against Mega Luke were that you can't know what switch-in is safe until it revealed the entire set. Gliscor is demolished by boosted Flash Cannon, with only the unlikely 252/252+ spread having any chance to survive. Lando-T is in a similar boat, and both will be destroyed by Ice Punch variants. Aegislash may not be 2HKO'd by unboosted attacks, but if it switches into a Crunch or Dark Pulse it's not getting that health back anytime soon. Jellicent hates the idea of taking crunches or dark pulses, and can't do squat to nasty plot variants other than hope the burn kills it quickly.

Can Mega Lucario handle all these threats on the same set? No. But the opponent doesn't know what Mega Luke can or can't handle until it's gotten the KO or switched out. The fact that you have to count on luck to send in the right one is why most people want Luke out.

I'd agree that Mega Lucario was uber if that were true. But there's a lot more counters to Lucario. Why are we conveniently ignoring them? I listed them some time ago and everyone has just been ignoring Lucario's other potential counters.

It's not possible to find a pokemon which can counter every set of a given Pokemon. Look at mixed Aegislash. It can wreck its usual counters with HP Ice and/or Shadow Ball. You're going to need different Pokemon to deal with that threat. The same applies to Mega Lucario; we're not screaming for Aegislash's head, are we?

You're going to have to admit that it's not an uber characteristic if a Pokemon might have different counters depending on different sets. Otherwise you'll have to ban Aegislash, Gengar, Garchomp, Tyranitar and others.

No one is claiming Mega Luke is UBER based on it's versatility alone. It's speed, passable bulk, decent defensive typing and access to priority make it an excellent mon to begin with; the ability to pick it's counters just puts it over the edge.

 

[Wargreymon]

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 307-361 (84.3 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 413-486 (113.4 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 213-252 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 283-338 (77.7 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 236-278 (64.8 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 314-372 (86.2 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

I hope that's enough for you.

All those calcs just prove what I said, it does indeed get destroyed by most strong psychic type moves. Doesn't matter if latios or mega zam don't OHKO, they almost do, meaning mega venusaur is totally screwed anyway. They also don't get the insane special attack drop.

 

[Seven Lions]

Can just shit on Latios with Knock Off, come on some weak crap with idk 25% like Rotom-W or Clefable, and heal.

 

[termi]

Then build a prepared team? Aegi, Conkel, Talon, Zard-x, Zard-y and Tran are all mons off the top of my head that check Genesect well in the early game. Are they perfect? No. Can they lose to specific Gene sets? Yes. But who cares? Play well in the early-game and figure out what the Genesect is doing. Once you do that Genesect is very easy to beat.

I know you or some other dude is going to be like "well if playing well is an answer to Genesect then nothing would be uber". The difference is that Genesect isn't overpowering any prepared team, unless one player plays exceptionally well or poorly. It lacks coverage to just run through teams, its spammable move isn't wrecking teams like BW Torn-T, when it sets up it isn't crushing teams like Lando-I in BW, it's not severely limiting offense like Thundy in BW1. Genesect isn't doing any of these things.

1: You completely ignore one of the most important arguments of the pro-ban side, namely the one that even when you switch in that check of yours, Genesect will U-Turn out most of the time, possibly denting your switchin and grabbing momentum. And yes it is different from other Pokemon with U-Turn/Volt Switch, as Genesect's U-Turn is stronger and he forces so much things out that he won't be punished very hard when its opponent stays in most of the time.
2: Wow, checks. That sure means a lot! Oh no wait it doesn't, because checks can't switch in safely and every offensive Pokemon has ought to have checks. Matter of fact is that of these Pokemon, the only ones that can safely switch in most of the time are Conkeldurr and Heatran (Aegislash is boned by Flamethrower, especially when Gene is Ebelt/LO, Talon and the Zards hate taking Tbolt (ZardX before mega) and they can't switch in when SR is around anyways). Checks mean little to Genesect when he can either launch a SE move with his great coverage or just U-Turn out to an appropriate check/counter.
3: Your idea of what constitutes a Pokemon that is broken or at least unhealthy for the metagame is completely distorted. From what I get, you apparently assume that something is only broken when it can single-handedly destroy teams, meaning that you only think that something shouldn't be banned because your idea of what should be banned is so one-dimensional. There are actually many factors at play when considering what should be banned, it's not just "oh this mon has huge attacking stats and good speed and can win by just spamming a move", something can actually be a major unhealthy influence on the meta without being over-the-top broken.

Genesect honestly limits teambuilding way too much and therefor doesn't promote creativity in teambuilding at all, can easily punish its common checks/counters if it wants to, provides free momentum for its team, forces a ton of shit out and is generally so good that any decent player will find Genesect to good to pass up on his/her offensive team. No, it doesn't overpower enemies with a single move, but it does many, many things that a Gen 5 Tornadus-T wasn't able to do and to me it is blatantly obvious that Genesect shoud not be allowed in a healthy OU metagame.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

I'd agree that Mega Lucario was uber if that were true. But there's a lot more counters to Lucario. Why are we conveniently ignoring them? I listed them some time ago and everyone has just been ignoring Lucario's other potential counters.

My responce to you using the word "Counter":

I have put this time and time again with Deoxys-S and Mega Venusaur on the Viability Thread and I will do it here. A counter must be able to switch into ANY AND ALL of the opposition, bar odd, gimmicky moves, and immediately threaten the target. For example: Chansey and Blissey typically counter Heatran because they can absorb most hits and Seismic Toss Heatran to death. Heatran almost entirely counters Talonflame thanks to its resists/immunities; even without Stone Edge, Heatran almost immediately threatens Talonflame. No single Pokemon can actually come in on Mega Skywalker and threaten each and every set. So many Pokemon are threatened by Mega Lucario that it can EASILY set up and get the +2 on either Spectrum. Aegislash, Zapdos, and Gyarados are destroyed by something of Skywalkers; Aegislash cannot switch into a Dark/Ghost type move, Zapdos dares not try against Ice Punch, and Gyarados...well, Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball 2HKOs and they both have an undesirable secondary effect on the off chance it activates. Mega Skywalker's checks are far and few between thanks to its coverage, as well as Priority in ExtremeSpeed, Bullet Punch, and Vacuum Wave. Oh, and Revenge Killing? Most Pokemon can be revenge killed, so...invalid argument is invalid.

Looking back, Mega Lucario is like a beefier Gen V Terrakion. No Pokemon could switch into Terrakion that easily, especially if it has any boosts, and it had just the right movepool to threaten almost anything. It had a couple Pokemon that were close to Counters, but they couldn't always get in easily. It's almost as if GameFreak looked at Terrakion and said "We need to give it a Steel Typing, more speed, priority, a Choice Band AND Specs, and more attack on both sides...oh, and it can switch attacks and boost even more than this Muskateer".

Finally, whatever "counter" you may find and claim to use, here's a tip: We call this centralizing. For the average OU Pokemon, good teambuilding can allow most of the big threats to be covered by one or two Pokemon; using cores to take out Pokemon has been used time and time again. When only a single Pokemon can take out a threat, you start to use it everywhere, therefore changing the core and teammates to go with it (say Gyarados with Excadrill or something...actually, I need to test that). Do I smell Gen IV Garchomp?

1. Garchomp
2. Garchomp Counter/Check
3. Garchomp Counter/Check
4. Garchomp Counter/Check Counter/Check
5. Garchomp Counter/Check Counter/Check
6. Sweeper that pairs well with Garchomp

...or something like that? I wasn't around during the Gen IV Meta, but I've heard some stories. If Mega Lucario were to stay, many teams would be kind of like above (just replace Garchomp with Lucario and Counter with Check).

Sorry, but...I needed to vent myself on how I despise immensely dangerous Pokemon that are completely unhealthy to the metagame. I honestly need a break from Smogon and start using Pokebank now that it's out...

 

[Photofluid]

1: You completely ignore one of the most important arguments of the pro-ban side, namely the one that even when you switch in that check of yours, Genesect will U-Turn out most of the time, possibly denting your switchin and grabbing momentum. And yes it is different from other Pokemon with U-Turn/Volt Switch, as Genesect's U-Turn is stronger and he forces so much things out that he won't be punished very hard when its opponent stays in most of the time.
2: Wow, checks. That sure means a lot! Oh no wait it doesn't, because checks can't switch in safely and every offensive Pokemon has ought to have checks. Matter of fact is that of these Pokemon, the only ones that can safely switch in most of the time are Conkeldurr and Heatran (Aegislash is boned by Flamethrower, especially when Gene is Ebelt/LO, Talon and the Zards hate taking Tbolt (ZardX before mega) and they can't switch in when SR is around anyways). Checks mean little to Genesect when he can either launch a SE move with his great coverage or just U-Turn out to an appropriate check/counter.
3: Your idea of what constitutes a Pokemon that is broken or at least unhealthy for the metagame is completely distorted. From what I get, you apparently assume that something is only broken when it can single-handedly destroy teams, meaning that you only think that something shouldn't be banned because your idea of what should be banned is so one-dimensional. There are actually many factors at play when considering what should be banned, it's not just "oh this mon has huge attacking stats and good speed and can win by just spamming a move", something can actually be a major unhealthy influence on the meta without being over-the-top broken.

Genesect honestly limits teambuilding way too much and therefor doesn't promote creativity in teambuilding at all, can easily punish its common checks/counters if it wants to, provides free momentum for its team, forces a ton of shit out and is generally so good that any decent player will find Genesect to good to pass up on his/her offensive team. No, it doesn't overpower enemies with a single move, but it does many, many things that a Gen 5 Tornadus-T wasn't able to do and to me it is blatantly obvious that Genesect shoud not be allowed in a healthy OU metagame.

Well, just as a side note, being able to "switch into Genesect" is a very different story when compared to being allowed to "face it head to head". Basically what Genesect is hovering over only includes "U-turn out" and "kill the current opponent", as long as you are not stupid enough to do the same thing repeatedly, a much larger spectrum of the meta can switch in with a moderate level of security.

Seriously, the pro ban arguments will look a lot more intelligent if they are not littered with stupid things like "just U-turn out" (which applies to virtually every single moderately strong voltswitcher), Ebelt sets(B+ worthy sets), enforcing the meta(no one is going to prepare specifically for Genesect) etc. etc.

Also, whether a meta is healthy or not is entirely subjective and relevant views should not be accused for, especially when we only have the three clauses(offensive, defensive, support) as a common consensus atm, even the meta-centralizing statement are accepted to different extents, things like SkarmBliss in the past, and weather in Gen V have all shown that some clearly overpowered stuffs can also be embraced as the feature of the meta. Speaking like one's idea is completely distorted is not only insulting, but foolish to begin with.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Well, just as a side note, being able to "switch into Genesect" is a very different story when compared to being allowed to "face it head to head". Basically what Genesect is hovering over only includes "U-turn out" and "kill the current opponent", as long as you are not stupid enough to do the same thing repeatedly, a much larger spectrum of the meta can switch in with a moderate level of security.

Seriously, the pro ban arguments will look a lot more intelligent if they are not littered with stupid things like "just U-turn out" (which applies to virtually every single moderately strong voltswitcher), Ebelt sets(B+ worthy sets), enforcing the meta(no one is going to prepare specifically for Genesect) etc. etc.

Also, whether a meta is healthy or not is entirely subjective and relevant views should not be accused for, especially when we only have the three clauses(offensive, defensive, support) as a common consensus atm, even the meta-centralizing statement are accepted to different extents, things like SkarmBliss in the past, and weather in Gen V have all shown that some clearly overpowered stuffs can also be embraced as the feature of the meta. Speaking like one's idea is completely distorted is not only insulting, but foolish to begin with.

"No one is going to prepare specifically for Genesect."
You know, unless they ever want to win.

I think what you're saying is that it won't sweep you if you don't prepare for it, but it will ruin you just the same with all that momentum-grabbing nonsense.

 

[Jukain]

Well, just as a side note, being able to "switch into Genesect" is a very different story when compared to being allowed to "face it head to head". Basically what Genesect is hovering over only includes "U-turn out" and "kill the current opponent", as long as you are not stupid enough to do the same thing repeatedly, a much larger spectrum of the meta can switch in with a moderate level of security.

Seriously, the pro ban arguments will look a lot more intelligent if they are not littered with stupid things like "just U-turn out" (which applies to virtually every single moderately strong voltswitcher), Ebelt sets(B+ worthy sets), enforcing the meta(no one is going to prepare specifically for Genesect) etc. etc.

Also, whether a meta is healthy or not is entirely subjective and relevant views should not be accused for, especially when we only have the three clauses(offensive, defensive, support) as a common consensus atm, even the meta-centralizing statement are accepted to different extents, things like SkarmBliss in the past, and weather in Gen V have all shown that some clearly overpowered stuffs can also be embraced as the feature of the meta. Speaking like one's idea is completely distorted is not only insulting, but foolish to begin with.

Can you please stop calling every non-Scarf Genesect 'B+'? That's just not true,
and I'm sure you know it. EBelt is good by proxy of Scarf being so common -- it threatens a revenge kill, even though it isn't actually Scarfed.

Everyone HAS to prepare specifically for Genesect unless they want a gamble every time it comes in.

SkarmBliss was never overcentralizing, and weather is a bad example as numerous upstanding members were vehemently pro ban (I suspect BW would not have Drizzle, at least, given a late suspect test). Genesect was banned last gen because it was totally ridiculous as a sum of its parts. It still is, and that's why needs go.

 

[LoDart210]

It's weird. Many of you all see words in these forums, whether factual or silly (by silly, I mean fucking stupid)...yet all I see are circles. These circles have been repeated throughout most of this thread. I think we all have made our opinions on Mega Skywalker heard.

I dislike how people don't give Deoxys-S the credit it deserves on its sets. "Defog exists, therefore it's bad" is the worst excuse I've heard to not ban something. I've stressed this in the Deoxys-S thread and the Viability Thread, but Deoxys-S is the hardest Pokemon to predict. Between its several sets (Hazards, Screens, TrickScarf, that ridiculous Damp Rock set, All-Out Offense, etc.), it's hard to pinpoint which ONE your opponent is using. Deoxys-S can beat most Defoggers and Rapid Spinners with the Offensive Set if you mispredict, so you might want to keep that Excadrill hidden away for a little bit until you pinpoint its set. As far as Hazards go, Deoxys-S almost guarantees two layers unless your opponent uses Priority (though to be fair, Taunting it might not be the best idea as it has access to Magic Coat...which I use). Do I think Deoxys-S needs a ban? Yes and no. While I don't think it's over-the-top broken, it is top of the line OU to me. Would I be hurt if it was banned? Not really. Deoxys-S is a Pokemon I can see go either way.

I didn't exactly get the brokenness of Genesect until recently (thank you, Pokebank!). I use an Expert Belt set for the most part...and it's absolutely ridiculous. Most people expect Scarf...and wow. The results were too great. The power of U-Turn combined with the scouting...its coverage options...and that's not even touching its Shift Gear set. Genesect is, quite literally, an easy fit on most teams, especially when coupled with Heatran. This might be the time to say that I'm a slight Genesect ban lean now, but it took some time to see both sides of the coin. It's not the power of U-Turn...it's not the scouting capabilities...it's not the coverage or the power or the speed...it's everything combined into one entity. Sounds like nonsense? Well, I'm still a little ill and it's early in the morning, so forgive me.

Yeah the circles are what are keeping me from posting. It's frustrating.

I think the only suspect that hasn't been torched with argument is deoxys S... And people still don't discuss him.

Personally, its the only one I really think should stay at least until the other two are gone and we can see if people lean to it.

I really like the LO set and am never too worried about it when facing it.

What I mean is, it's not the type of threat that makes you sigh because you know something MUST die, which is why I don't consider it broken

 

[TheDuckChris]

To be honest if you don't consider Special Mega-Luc as one of his common sets I don't know why you're posting in this thread.
Please ladder up a bit if you want to contribute to the discussion. The requirements are set for a reason.
I can't make reqs, sure, but at least I know enough to let those who have decide for themselves without polluting this thread with observations of what each suspect can do to the 1300 elo range. This thread could be 8 pages long and still have just as much worthwile discussion.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Yeah the circles are what are keeping me from posting. It's frustrating.

I think the only suspect that hasn't been torched with argument is deoxys S... And people still don't discuss him.

Personally, its the only one I really think should stay at least until the other two are gone and we can see if people lean to it.

I really like the LO set and am never too worried about it when facing it.

What I mean is, it's not the type of threat that makes you sigh because you know something MUST die, which is why I don't consider it broken

That's exactly why Deoxys-S doesn't get discussed - almost everyone thinks it isn't broken and knows that everyone else feels the same way, so the discussion would basically be
"Don't ban Deoxys-S"
"yep"
"yep"

 

[Chiki]

The problem is that, not only does Luke need different counters for different sets, but that those counters fail to do anything to it's other sets. Lando-T dies to special, even Gyarados and Volcarona and other pokemon that apparently counter Megaluke die if it runs Stone Edge, an overlooked move in my opinion. Luke's movepool is so good that it can run something, but not everything, to deal with checks and counters and essentially choose exactly what it wants to destroy. As opposed to stuff like Aegis, where a pokemon that counters one set will still do very well against any other. Another thing is that you need multiple checks to Luke, different ones for each set, because otherwise you are likely to gets wept. That limits teambuilding, as one has to/should have several pokemon from a small list of things for one threat. Finally, everything you didn't list outright loses to Megaluke. The fact Luke can dominate most of the metagame, and can choose exactly which pokemon it doesn't dominate with it's different sets, makes it overcentralizing- too much strain on teambuilding, too much power to allow it to completely annihilate you if your check is eliminated somehow.

This just isn't a good argument. Consider Charizard. You can't know which Mega Stone he has, and you can't know if he's a physical or a special sweeper. It's not like Landorus-T can counter Charizard Y, whereas he can counter Charizard X. But I don't see anyone screaming for Charizard's head on a spike.

If you're running Charizard you probably have a way of getting rid of SR, so the -50% argument here doesn't work well.

I'll give you another example. It's not true at all that Landorus-T, Donphan and Garchomp do well against HP Ice Aegislash, who wrecks them. Obviously not every set of a certain Pokemon can be countered by the same Pokemon all the time.

Metagame-wide trends of how many teams carry rocks are irrelevent

How on earth are they irrelevant? Everything in these arguments is based on usage. If Mega Gengar was considered bad by all of us for some reason (for argument's sake) he wouldn't be uber even though he had uber potential. There's just not enough people using him to overcentralize the metagame. Similarly, if no one uses SR, then obviously Lucario's counters are a lot more useful. You don't need to worry about SR as much.

Spinning and defogging can be stopped either by spinblocking or taunt respectively, and both can be prevented through sheer offensive pressure

There's a reason why hyper offense isn't very common (thanks to Genesect). I think the metagame is leaning towards bulky offense/balanced gameplay where it's not hard at all to pull off a Defog or a Rapid Spin.

If these are your dedicated Mega Lucario counters, then you can lose a match because you were unable to get rid of rocks. That seems pretty broken.

This is vastly exaggerated. Why are we assuming that Lucario is just getting a free SD? It doesn't work like that in practice. SR does help him but the player isn't just a rock who watches Lucario set up. He's going to try and cripple Lucario and prevent him from setting up.

Gliscor is demolished by boosted Flash Cannon, with only the unlikely 252/252+ spread having any chance to survive.

He's not demolished if you use Protect, and switch to something to take the Flash Cannon, or let Gliscor die for a check to come in.

Lando-T is in a similar boat, and both will be destroyed by Ice Punch variants.

Landorus-T can weaken Lucario, allowing a check who can take an Ice Punch to have an easier time to come in.

Aegislash may not be 2HKO'd by unboosted attacks, but if it switches into a Crunch or Dark Pulse it's not getting that health back anytime soon.

A +0 Crunch does little damage. Why are we assuming Lucario has a free SD?

Jellicent hates the idea of taking crunches or dark pulses, and can't do squat to nasty plot variants other than hope the burn kills it quickly.

Jellicent can still take a hit and cripple SD Lucario.

Jellicent hates the idea of taking crunches or dark pulses, and can't do squat to nasty plot variants other than hope the burn kills it quickly.

So what? So can Charizard. He can go physical or special.

I'm going to bring this up again, and I hope you guys address this argument: why are you guys just assuming that Lucario has a free SD/NP? It's not easy to set up with Lucario at all--it's so hard, in fact, that I generally use Celebi as a Baton Passer to help him set up. He can't just come in for free and set up whenever he feels like it. Let's look at the top 10. He can't set up on Rotom-W because of WoW. He can't set up on Aegislash because of Sacred Sword. He can't set up on Talonflame. He can't set up on Genesect unless he's stuck to Ice Beam. He can't set up on Greninja. He can't set up on Charizard. He can't set up on other Lucario. He can't set up on Heatran. He can't set up on Gliscor. He can't set up on Garchomp.

Why are we overrating Mega Lucario to such a great extent?

I might make a very long-winded post about how overrated Mega Lucario is in the (unlikely) chance that I can convince some of you guys at least.

 

[rachet67]

Yeah the circles are what are keeping me from posting. It's frustrating.

I think the only suspect that hasn't been torched with argument is deoxys S... And people still don't discuss him.

Personally, its the only one I really think should stay at least until the other two are gone and we can see if people lean to it.

I really like the LO set and am never too worried about it when facing it.

What I mean is, it's not the type of threat that makes you sigh because you know something MUST die, which is why I don't consider it broken

Of course its running in circles as there's only three pokemon to discuss. People just joining in the thread will start old debates, because all points have been made. Even on deoxys-s. That's not a bad thing though, as it gives people a chance to debate their merits and get a bigger picture of the meta outside the team they use.

 

[Photofluid]

Can you please stop calling every non-Scarf Genesect 'B+'? That's just not true,
and I'm sure you know it. EBelt is good by proxy of Scarf being so common -- it threatens a revenge kill, even though it isn't actually Scarfed.

Everyone HAS to prepare specifically for Genesect unless they want a gamble every time it comes in.

SkarmBliss was never overcentralizing, and weather is a bad example as numerous upstanding members were vehemently pro ban (I suspect BW would not have Drizzle, at least, given a late suspect test). Genesect was banned last gen because it was totally ridiculous as a sum of its parts. It still is, and that's why needs go.

Ebelt set is literally B+ worthy, Band set may earn itself a higher place though.

SkarmBliss, at least Skarmory itself, is literally the reason why every team desperately need a steel solution in the past days.

And the example of weather is not a bad example, you see what have happened, clearly stronger than it should be but don't even receive a suspect test, because the majority of community just embrace it as the feature of the pokemon game. Certainly a few people can be very vocal about it, but it does not matter when nothing have actually happened, and btw, I am quite sure that there are still many controversial ban/unbans out there.

Another example, btw, is stealth rock, which basically dominates the meta in the past two generations, and I doubt if there was even a suspect for it.

In fact, if we hold strict about the standard, the formation of a meta itself is already a sign of centralization, and any pokemon that prohibits any play style (e.g. Kyu-B to stalling in general) should be banned, clearly not the case. Than where should the line be drawn? No subjective conclusion or standards reached.

Also, even in the OU ban history it is said that Genesect is not "broken", but is banned because it is creating tons of issues. The three clauses(offensive, defensive, support) so as various less optimal standards can not be sum up like elementary arithmetic.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

This just isn't a good argument. Consider Charizard. You can't know which Mega Stone he has, and you can't know if he's a physical or a special sweeper. It's not like Landorus-T can counter Charizard Y, whereas he can counter Charizard X. But I don't see anyone screaming for Charizard's head on a spike.

If you're running Charizard you probably have a way of getting rid of SR, so the -50% argument here doesn't work well.

I'll give you another example. It's not true at all that Landorus-T, Donphan and Garchomp do well against HP Ice Aegislash, who wrecks them. Obviously not every set of a certain Pokemon can be countered by the same Pokemon all the time.



How on earth are they irrelevant? Everything in these arguments is based on usage. If Mega Gengar was considered bad by all of us for some reason (for argument's sake) he wouldn't be uber even though he had uber potential. There's just not enough people using him to overcentralize the metagame. Similarly, if no one uses SR, then obviously Lucario's counters are a lot more useful. You don't need to worry about SR as much.



There's a reason why hyper offense isn't very common (thanks to Genesect). I think the metagame is leaning towards bulky offense/balanced gameplay where it's not hard at all to pull off a Defog or a Rapid Spin.



This is vastly exaggerated. Why are we assuming that Lucario is just getting a free SD? It doesn't work like that in practice. SR does help him but the player isn't just a rock who watches Lucario set up. He's going to try and cripple Lucario and prevent him from setting up.



He's not demolished if you use Protect, and switch to something to take the Flash Cannon, or let Gliscor die for a check to come in.



Landorus-T can weaken Lucario, allowing a check who can take an Ice Punch to have an easier time to come in.



A +0 Crunch does little damage. Why are we assuming Lucario has a free SD?



Jellicent can still take a hit and cripple SD Lucario.



So what? So can Charizard. He can go physical or special.

I'm going to bring this up again, and I hope you guys address this argument: why are you guys just assuming that Lucario has a free SD/NP? It's not easy to set up with Lucario at all--it's so hard, in fact, that I generally use Celebi as a Baton Passer to help him set up. He can't just come in for free and set up whenever he feels like it. Let's look at the top 10. He can't set up on Rotom-W because of WoW. He can't set up on Aegislash because of Sacred Sword. He can't set up on Talonflame. He can't set up on Genesect unless he's stuck to Ice Beam. He can't set up on Greninja. He can't set up on Charizard. He can't set up on other Lucario. He can't set up on Heatran. He can't set up on Gliscor. He can't set up on Garchomp.

Why are we overrating Mega Lucario to such a great extent?

I might make a very long-winded post about how overrated Mega Lucario is in the (unlikely) chance that I can convince some of you guys at least.

Lucario has a VERY easy time setting up because he can force a lot of things out. Also, if something is switching into Lucario it's taking two attacks, the eqiuivalent of one +2 attack. Basically, a counter has to switch into all of Lucario's moves, so either Lucario boosts or gets an extra attack for free on the switch. If you have to predict Lucario's move to switch something in, then it's not a counter.

On the comparison to Mega Charizards - nobody is screaming for their respective heads on spikes, but I can imagine a reasonable argument for them being broken. Anyway, as soon as you know Zard's mega evolution you know its counters, while Lucario can run such a variety of moves on each set that you don't know what to counter it with until you know at least two or three of its moves.

On the thing about how easy it is to remove stealth rock - it's just as easy to set it up again, something you can bet a Lucario user will be taking the time to do if you have a Moltres or Zapdos or Gyarados.

Finally, usage has no relation to brokenness whatsoever. If something is broken, we ban it, regardless of how many people are using it.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Ebelt set is literally B+ worthy, Band set may earn itself a higher place though.

SkarmBliss, at least Skarmory itself, is literally the reason why every team desperately need a steel solution in the past days.

And the example of weather is not a bad example, you see what have happened, clearly stronger than it should be but don't even receive a suspect test, because the majority of community just embrace it as the feature of the pokemon game. Certainly a few people can be very vocal about it, but it does not matter when nothing have actually happened, and btw, I am quite sure that there are still many controversial ban/unbans out there.

Another example, btw, is stealth rock, which basically dominates the meta in the past two generations, and I doubt if there was even a suspect for it.

In fact, if we hold strict about the standard, the formation of a meta itself is already a sign of centralization, and any pokemon that prohibits any play style (e.g. Kyu-B to stalling in general) should be banned, clearly not the case. Than where should the line be drawn? No subjective conclusion or standards reached.

Also, even in the OU ban history it is said that Genesect is not "broken", but is banned because it is creating tons of issues. The three clauses(offensive, defensive, support) so as various less optimal standards can not be sum up like elementary arithmetic.

So, why are we talking about strategies and moves being broken? The discussion is about genesect and it's varying sets. If we were discussing banning volt turn or something, then bringing up rain would be a very good point, but we're talking about genesect's effect on the meta game, and IMO, genesect is much more comparable to gengarite, which was banned. New strategies, game mechanics, and moves all have to be analyzed differently than individual Pokemon

 

[Photofluid]

So, why are we talking about strategies and moves being broken? The discussion is about genesect and it's varying sets. If we were discussing banning volt turn or something, then bringing up rain would be a very good point, but we're talking about genesect's effect on the meta game, and IMO, genesect is much more comparable to gengarite, which was banned. New strategies, game mechanics, and moves all have to be analyzed differently than individual Pokemon

The problem here is, most of the varieties of Genesect on the table are outright sub par, and is too ineffective to be factored in as a reason of banning.

Btw, Genesect is pretty much the representative of the entire voltturn strategy to its every aspect, defined as strong head to head match up combined with switch out moves, which is also the major pro-ban on the table now. That is why I have brought up the factors to the strategic level over individuals.

 

[Chiki]

Lucario has a VERY easy time setting up because he can force a lot of things out. Also, if something is switching into Lucario it's taking two attacks, the eqiuivalent of one +2 attack. Basically, a counter has to switch into all of Lucario's moves, so either Lucario boosts or gets an extra attack for free on the switch. If you have to predict Lucario's move to switch something in, then it's not a counter.

On the comparison to Mega Charizards - nobody is screaming for their respective heads on spikes, but I can imagine a reasonable argument for them being broken. Anyway, as soon as you know Zard's mega evolution you know its counters, while Lucario can run such a variety of moves on each set that you don't know what to counter it with until you know at least two or three of its moves.

On the thing about how easy it is to remove stealth rock - it's just as easy to set it up again, something you can bet a Lucario user will be taking the time to do if you have a Moltres or Zapdos or Gyarados.

Finally, usage has no relation to brokenness whatsoever. If something is broken, we ban it, regardless of how many people are using it.

How does Lucario have an "easy time setting up?" What can he force out? Also, a common mistake made is to let Lucario force something out if you indeed have something that can be OHKOed by +0 Lucario out. It's better to sacrifice something to cripple it. If it uses SD, you can kill it with Excadrill or Tyranitar or paralyze it or something. Let's see what Lucario can set up on from the top 50:

Rotom-W: no, Will-O-Wisp
Aegislash: no, Sacred Sword
Talonflame: no, Brave Bird or Flare Blitz or Will-O-Wisp
Genesect: no (only when stuck to Ice Beam, which is rare)
Greninja: no, Hydro Pump
Charizard: no, fire moves
Lucario: no, fighting moves
Heatran: no, fire moves
Gliscor: no.
Garchomp: no, Earthquake
Azumarill: no, Play Rough or Waterfall or Superpower
Scizor: yes
Ferrothorn: yes
Tyranitar: depends. Can be forced out but you can also kill Lucario if he chooses to set up while you use EQ or Superpower.
Conkeldurr: no
Excadrill: depends, for some reason as TTar.
Dragonite: depends. It depends on Dragonite having Multiscale on and Lucario having Ice Punch. You can also keep Dragonite on Lucario in case it uses SD.
Venusaur: no. He's a good Lucario counter with Sleep Powder.
Mandibuzz: no, uses Whirlwind.
Gengar: no. Outspeeds Lucario on turn 1.
Espeon: no. Outspeeds Lucario after mega evolving on turn 1, crippling him.
Mamoswine: depends.
Goodra: no, can take a hit and OHKO Lucario.
Alakazam: no.
Landorus-T: can take an Ice Punch and kill Lucario.
Togekiss: no, paralyzed.
Skarmory: no, Whirlwind.
Breloom: no, Mach Punch.
Infernape: no, outspeeds Lucario on turn 1.
Volcarona: no.
Gyarados: no. Good Lucario counter.
Latios: no, outspeeds on turn 1.
Mawile: no. owned by Play Rough.
Trevenant: no. Will-O-Wisp.
Cloyster: eh, depends on Shell Smash being used.
Pinsir: no.
Blissey: yes.
Sableye: no, Will-O-Wisp.
Smeargle: depends I guess? He's not really something you set up on because he has a Sash and Spore. He cripples Lucario if Sticky Web is up.
Sylveon: yes.
Klefki: no, Thunder Wave.
Clefable: no, Fire Blast.
Donphan: no, has Sturdy and Earthquake and is a tank.
Galvantula: no, same situation as Smeargle but he has some strong attacks.
Starmie: no, is always faster than Lucario.
Tentacruel: depends on luck. Tentacruel can tank a hit from any +2 move Lucario has to offer, so he can use 2 Scalds, crippling Lucario a lot with a good chance to burn.
Forretress: yes.
Bisharp: depends on whether Bisharp is +2 when Lucario comes in.
Salamence: no.
Thundurus: no.

We have 5 yeses and and 8 "depends" out of 50 pokemon.

An important lesson to learn here is that Lucario setting up is not easy on a lot of these "depends" Pokemon because it depends on correct prediction and luck. Will Lucario use SD or CC on my Tyranitar? You can't always be successful. You guys are vastly exaggerating this whole issue.

Dude, you can't argue for Mega Charizard's set being unknown and then say it's different from Lucario. All you need is a turn to see Charizard mega evolve. Similarly all you need to do to see which set Mega Lucario has is to see him set up or use Aura Sphere or Close Combat or whatever. That's it.

Usage has everything to do with brokenness. You can't know what is broken and what isn't without usage data. You need practical experience to conclude if something is broken; maybe not in cases like Arceus, but certainly so in cases like Mega Lucario.