XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

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I have noticed that Red Card Deoxys-D is very popular on the suspect ladder. It definitely fares better against Aegislash than Deoxys-S which may make it the better hazard setter of the two. Of course, we have no idea what a ladder with Deoxys-S but no Genesect or Mega Lucario looks like because it was all or nothing on the ladders for this test. Whether some of the Deoxys-D are replaced by Deoxys-S if / when Mega Lucario and Genesect are banned remains to be seen, but I don't think we should ban Deoxys-S right now based on what we think the new metagame could theoretically look like. My guess is that both Deoxys forms will see a spike in usage after this, and I hope that the suspect council will not hesitate to retest Deoxys-S along with Deoxys-D if Deoxys HO gets out of hand like last generation after Genesect was banned.
 
How can be check better than counter? That's bullshit.
Every counter is check as well,
Counter > Check
You didn't understand what I was saying.

I was saying, if a Pokemon has 20 checks and no counters, it's less of a problem than if it has 2 hard counters and no other real checks. I didn't say they were equal at any time, I didn't say it's better to have A check rather than A counter. It is not bullshit.
 
Do you think Volt-Turning would go down if Gene was banned? I mean, when Blaziken was on the ladder I saw heaps of Baton Pass teams. He's gone now I don't see many. If in gen 5 we banned Politoad for example, we would've seen less rain teams. I think the reason Volt-Turning is so popular is mostly due to Genesect.
Offensive teams hugely benefit from the momentum gained by volt-turn, as they can play pressure mind games around setting up or boosting that can win them the game on any given turn. Balanced teams also benefit hugely from slow volt-turn's ability to bring in their sweeper for free, without having to sac a mon. Stall arguably benefits the least from these advantages, as their game relies more on sponging attacks by switching from counter to counter, as opposed to dealing damage or making a game winning play with a particular mon. But there's not big movement to stall coming, if that's your idea. And in any case, BW teams were filled with volt-turn mons till the end of that meta, so this isn't exactly a new phenomenon.
 
Do you think Volt-Turning would go down if Gene was banned? I mean, when Blaziken was on the ladder I saw heaps of Baton Pass teams. He's gone now I don't see many. If in gen 5 we banned Politoad for example, we would've seen less rain teams. I think the reason Volt-Turning is so popular is mostly due to Genesect.
Hey man I bet if we banned Stealth Rock, we'd see a lot less Stealth Rock.
 
I already made reqs, and I don't feel like really arguing, and I can't even read this thread anymore because I don't understand how people can still be arguing that Lucarionite and Genesect are not broken. Seriously it's beyond me.

Lucarionite: BAN Are you even kidding me this thing is so freaking broken have you even made reqs? If you've made reqs, it should be pretty clear that this thing is broken as hell. The bottom line is that you will pay dearly every time this thing comes out on the field safely, and unless you're running a team with mega venu, zapdos, AV slowbro, and restalk gyarados, you've been swept by him at least a few times.

Genesect: BAN Genesect is so dangerous and has so many sets it's rediculous. As highlighted by so many posts like Iodic Acid's (post 889, go read it people) Genesect's sheer offensive presence allows it to basically bluff scarf all it wants, making other sets so freaking dangerous. I've been using a band set, and due to how players must assume it's scarf, I end up getting to play it as if it were both scarfed and banded, and deal immense damage to opposing teams. The amount of damage this thing deals in one game compared to how much it takes is clearly broken, and if you mispredict, you will pay.

Deoxys-S: BAN This is the one suspect that is still up for grabs, mostly due to how little people know about it. Well let me tell you, if you're laying hazards, you're doing it wrong. Deoxys-S is the best late game cleaner in the meta, bar none. Faster than anything that should be scarfed, and not overly vulnerable to any priority besides sucker punch and shadow sneak, which it can usually still tank due to its decent defenses, Deo-S can plow through teams that have even minor prior damage. I don't understand why people dismiss it's 95 base offenses when boosted by a life orb, when Starmie maintained a great spot in OU for five gens with a stat that was only five points higher. Deoxys-S may be the most misused and sorely underestimated threat in the meta at this moment, and contrary to the beliefs of some, the people in charge knew what they were doing when they put it on the chopping block. The strength of a life orb and the speed of a scarf is just too much to be healthy for the meta.
 
Okay so I was able to try out both ladders Overused and Suspect Overused and had a great experience doing all the battles and was able to get my rating up to 1711 in Overused and sadly 1300 in Suspect mainly because I put off doing it until basically just today. Anyways I just wanted to provide some food for thought to everyone who is in favor of banning Mega Lucario. Being able to compete in both ladders really helped me gauge the differences of Mega Lucario Jolly nature 252 atk 252 spe close combat, crunch, extreme speed, and Swords dance in comparison to Adamant LO Lucario with the exact same set. I personally also have to add I feel this set for both Mega and standard Lucario functions the strongest in the Overused tiers.

Okay so I found that the biggest advantages Mega lucario has on his former self is his adaptability close combat and his speed increase.

First after running some calcs and battling i began to realize that Jolly Mega lucario's close combat is really not all to much stronger than LO lucario with LO Lucario's close combat reaches 233.33 power while Mega reaches 240 not a major difference 7 base power is nothing. Second his attack is 389 compared to 350, 39 points in attack makes even a smaller difference and even after swords dance it would only be 78 points stronger making some difference but not a absolutely insane difference.
The calcs i used were on something simple such as hippowdon Jolly 252 atk Mega Lucario 252 def 252 hp Hippowdon S.D Close combat 86.6 - 102.3% Standard LO 76.1 - 89.5% that may sound like a lot but LO lucario's close combat can be even to his mega according to the scale also understand after SD will be the biggest difference in power.
W/O SD Mega Lucario close combat Hippowdon 43.3 - 51.4% Standard Lucario 38 - 44.7%. I know this is a difference but not one to be banned for cause after leftovers recover both are guaranteed 3 hit KOs.

One major advantage LO lucario has on his mega is his extreme speed buff and crunch.
Here's some calcs i ran real quick to get an idea
LO Lucario SD extreme speed C.B talon flame which is most competitive now anyways 98.6 - 116.1% 87.5 chance to 1 hit KO that's huge!
Mega Lucario Jolly SD extreme speed on the same talon flame 83.8 - 98.9% doesn't even have a chance to 1 hit KO.

LO lucario SD crunch on 252 hp aegislash 96.2 - 113.8% 75 chance to 1 hit KO!
Mega Lucario jolly SD crunch 252 hp aegislash 82 - 96.9% can't 1 shot him!


Okay I could run more calcs but I'm whipped two of the most common pokemon in the game standard lucario LO opts better against. Also let me add i didn't use Adamant Mega lucario because hes not as effective in the overused tier losing speed to garchomp, latios, latias, gengar, and basically all base 328's to all base 350's is enough of a reason to neglect adamant Mega lucario.

As far as special lucario goes he is really only effective for the element of surprise passing up a close combat of 240 base power! neutrally and even when resisted 120 base power! for flash cannon 160 Bp and aurasphere which got a nerf to 160 bp instead of being 180 really is only effective for the element of surprise just as zoroark is used and he isn't banned and shouldn't be.


Okay so overall I appreciate having the opportunity to compete in both ladders and evaluate the differences of Mega and standard Lucario. With everything done and said Mega lucario's buffs are his defense increase his 240 base close combat and the biggest by far his base 355 speed damn fast. Standard Lucario LO offers a stronger extreme speed picking off weakened pokemon much easier as well as taking out faster threats such as talon flame, while Standard also has stronger coverage moves on pokemon such as aegislash. Overall with all this said I believe he should get a ban.

Please give me feed back on everything as well I hope many people change their votes as a result of this post. Also I'm sure the grammar and spelling is off in many spots after typing this extremely long post. Thanks.
 
I already made reqs, and I don't feel like really arguing, and I can't even read this thread anymore because I don't understand how people can still be arguing that Lucarionite and Genesect are not broken. Seriously it's beyond me.

Lucarionite: BAN Are you even kidding me this thing is so freaking broken have you even made reqs? If you've made reqs, it should be pretty clear that this thing is broken as hell. The bottom line is that you will pay dearly every time this thing comes out on the field safely, and unless you're running a team with mega venu, zapdos, AV slowbro, and restalk gyarados, you've been swept by him at least a few times.

Genesect: BAN Genesect is so dangerous and has so many sets it's rediculous. As highlighted by so many posts like Iodic Acid's (post 889, go read it people) Genesect's sheer offensive presence allows it to basically bluff scarf all it wants, making other sets so freaking dangerous. I've been using a band set, and due to how players must assume it's scarf, I end up getting to play it as if it were both scarfed and banded, and deal immense damage to opposing teams. The amount of damage this thing deals in one game compared to how much it takes is clearly broken, and if you mispredict, you will pay.

Deoxys-S: BAN This is the one suspect that is still up for grabs, mostly due to how little people know about it. Well let me tell you, if you're laying hazards, you're doing it wrong. Deoxys-S is the best late game cleaner in the meta, bar none. Faster than anything that should be scarfed, and not overly vulnerable to any priority besides sucker punch and shadow sneak, which it can usually still tank due to its decent defenses, Deo-S can plow through teams that have even minor prior damage. I don't understand why people dismiss it's 95 base offenses when boosted by a life orb, when Starmie maintained a great spot in OU for five gens with a stat that was only five points higher. Deoxys-S may be the most misused and sorely underestimated threat in the meta at this moment, and contrary to the beliefs of some, the people in charge knew what they were doing when they put it on the chopping block. The strength of a life orb and the speed of a scarf is just too much to be healthy for the meta.
As great as offensive Deoxys-S is, it's hard to be good to the point of being broken when your best stab attack halves your special attack. Plus the sheer amount of priority in OU today makes it surprisingly easy to revenge kill, even with that ridiculous speed stat. Deoxys-S is an amazing revenge killer, but it's not going to clean teams effectively unless they're severely weakened or carry lots of 4x ice and fire weaknesses so Deo can avoid crippling itself with Psycho Boost. And it still has to have CB Talonflame / Aegislash / Bisharp / CB Genesect / anything with Sucker Punch removed first.
 
As great as offensive Deoxys-S is, it's hard to be good to the point of being broken when your best stab attack halves your special attack. Plus the sheer amount of priority in OU today makes it surprisingly easy to revenge kill, even with that ridiculous speed stat. Deoxys-S is an amazing revenge killer, but it's not going to clean teams effectively unless they're severely weakened or carry lots of 4x ice and fire weaknesses so Deo can avoid crippling itself with Psycho Boost. And it still has to have CB Talonflame / Aegislash / Bisharp / CB Genesect / anything with Sucker Punch removed first.
Many Pokemon are weak to priority and are easily revenge killed. That can't discount a Pokemon from Uber Status. Interestingly enough, CB Talonflame/Aegislash/Bisharp/Genesect would all cause problems for Deoxys-A (which is Uber). I don't believe a Pokemon can be crippled by having their Special Attack sharply lowered, as a simple switch out remedies this problem - an example of a crippled Pokemon would be a burnt Landorus. Many anti-ban arguments seem to be based on ridiculous 1v1 scenarios that no player in their right mind would proceed with. Suspect testing is supposed to be based on "brokenness" relative to strategic team play, so it's best to stick with that mindset.
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Mewtwo X: 470-554 (132.7 - 156.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mewtwo X: 320-378 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

By that same logic, we should unban Mega Mewtwo from Ubers, as it can be easily revenge killed by Taloflame and Aegislash (who will, at the very least, put it in Shadow Sneak KO range and can definitely take a hit in shield forme).

I think we should stop looking at 1v1 scenarios and looking at a team as a whole. We can only have 6 pokemon, remember that. In the current Hyper Offense metagame filled with powerful priority moves, you eventually need to sacrifice some pokemon in certain situations. Lose one fundamental piece and you will get swept. There are very few checks and counters to these three pokemon, and losing one will cost you a match.

You could say that the same applies to all other pokemon. But most pokemon can still be worked around with good plays. IMO it doesnt apply to these 3, and thus should be banned.
 
Okay so I was able to try out both ladders Overused and Suspect Overused and had a great experience doing all the battles and was able to get my rating up to 1711 in Overused and sadly 1300 in Suspect mainly because I put off doing it until basically just today. Anyways I just wanted to provide some food for thought to everyone who is in favor of banning Mega Lucario. Being able to compete in both ladders really helped me gauge the differences of Mega Lucario Jolly nature 252 atk 252 spe close combat, crunch, extreme speed, and Swords dance in comparison to Adamant LO Lucario with the exact same set. I personally also have to add I feel this set for both Mega and standard Lucario functions the strongest in the Overused tiers.

Okay so I found that the biggest advantages Mega lucario has on his former self is his adaptability close combat and his speed increase.

First after running some calcs and battling i began to realize that Jolly Mega lucario's close combat is really not all to much stronger than LO lucario with LO Lucario's close combat reaches 233.33 power while Mega reaches 240 not a major difference 7 base power is nothing. Second his attack is 389 compared to 350, 39 points in attack makes even a smaller difference and even after swords dance it would only be 78 points stronger making some difference but not a absolutely insane difference.
The calcs i used were on something simple such as hippowdon Jolly 252 atk Mega Lucario 252 def 252 hp Hippowdon S.D Close combat 86.6 - 102.3% Standard LO 76.1 - 89.5% that may sound like a lot but LO lucario's close combat can be even to his mega according to the scale also understand after SD will be the biggest difference in power.
W/O SD Mega Lucario close combat Hippowdon 43.3 - 51.4% Standard Lucario 38 - 44.7%. I know this is a difference but not one to be banned for cause after leftovers recover both are guaranteed 3 hit KOs.

One major advantage LO lucario has on his mega is his extreme speed buff and crunch.
Here's some calcs i ran real quick to get an idea
LO Lucario SD extreme speed C.B talon flame which is most competitive now anyways 98.6 - 116.1% 87.5 chance to 1 hit KO that's huge!
Mega Lucario Jolly SD extreme speed on the same talon flame 83.8 - 98.9% doesn't even have a chance to 1 hit KO.

LO lucario SD crunch on 252 hp aegislash 96.2 - 113.8% 75 chance to 1 hit KO!
Mega Lucario jolly SD crunch 252 hp aegislash 82 - 96.9% can't 1 shot him!


Okay I could run more calcs but I'm whipped two of the most common pokemon in the game standard lucario LO opts better against. Also let me add i didn't use Adamant Mega lucario because hes not as effective in the overused tier losing speed to garchomp, latios, latias, gengar, and basically all base 328's to all base 350's is enough of a reason to neglect adamant Mega lucario.

As far as special lucario goes he is really only effective for the element of surprise passing up a close combat of 240 base power! neutrally and even when resisted 120 base power! for flash cannon 160 Bp and aurasphere which got a nerf to 160 bp instead of being 180 really is only effective for the element of surprise just as zoroark is used and he isn't banned and shouldn't be.


Okay so overall I appreciate having the opportunity to compete in both ladders and evaluate the differences of Mega and standard Lucario. With everything done and said Mega lucario's buffs are his defense increase his 240 base close combat and the biggest by far his base 355 speed damn fast. Standard Lucario LO offers a stronger extreme speed picking off weakened pokemon much easier as well as taking out faster threats such as talon flame, while Standard also has stronger coverage moves on pokemon such as aegislash. Overall with all this said I believe he should get a ban.

Please give me feed back on everything as well I hope many people change their votes as a result of this post. Also I'm sure the grammar and spelling is off in many spots after typing this extremely long post. Thanks.
Wait are you trying to say Lucario in general should be banned? Because I'm confused. The start of your argument made it sound like you were against banning Lucarionite...
 
Okay so I was able to try out both ladders Overused and Suspect Overused and had a great experience doing all the battles and was able to get my rating up to 1711 in Overused and sadly 1300 in Suspect mainly because I put off doing it until basically just today. Anyways I just wanted to provide some food for thought to everyone who is in favor of banning Mega Lucario. Being able to compete in both ladders really helped me gauge the differences of Mega Lucario Jolly nature 252 atk 252 spe close combat, crunch, extreme speed, and Swords dance in comparison to Adamant LO Lucario with the exact same set. I personally also have to add I feel this set for both Mega and standard Lucario functions the strongest in the Overused tiers.

Okay so I found that the biggest advantages Mega lucario has on his former self is his adaptability close combat and his speed increase.

First after running some calcs and battling i began to realize that Jolly Mega lucario's close combat is really not all to much stronger than LO lucario with LO Lucario's close combat reaches 233.33 power while Mega reaches 240 not a major difference 7 base power is nothing. Second his attack is 389 compared to 350, 39 points in attack makes even a smaller difference and even after swords dance it would only be 78 points stronger making some difference but not a absolutely insane difference.
The calcs i used were on something simple such as hippowdon Jolly 252 atk Mega Lucario 252 def 252 hp Hippowdon S.D Close combat 86.6 - 102.3% Standard LO 76.1 - 89.5% that may sound like a lot but LO lucario's close combat can be even to his mega according to the scale also understand after SD will be the biggest difference in power.
W/O SD Mega Lucario close combat Hippowdon 43.3 - 51.4% Standard Lucario 38 - 44.7%. I know this is a difference but not one to be banned for cause after leftovers recover both are guaranteed 3 hit KOs.

One major advantage LO lucario has on his mega is his extreme speed buff and crunch.
Here's some calcs i ran real quick to get an idea
LO Lucario SD extreme speed C.B talon flame which is most competitive now anyways 98.6 - 116.1% 87.5 chance to 1 hit KO that's huge!
Mega Lucario Jolly SD extreme speed on the same talon flame 83.8 - 98.9% doesn't even have a chance to 1 hit KO.

LO lucario SD crunch on 252 hp aegislash 96.2 - 113.8% 75 chance to 1 hit KO!
Mega Lucario jolly SD crunch 252 hp aegislash 82 - 96.9% can't 1 shot him!


Okay I could run more calcs but I'm whipped two of the most common pokemon in the game standard lucario LO opts better against. Also let me add i didn't use Adamant Mega lucario because hes not as effective in the overused tier losing speed to garchomp, latios, latias, gengar, and basically all base 328's to all base 350's is enough of a reason to neglect adamant Mega lucario.

As far as special lucario goes he is really only effective for the element of surprise passing up a close combat of 240 base power! neutrally and even when resisted 120 base power! for flash cannon 160 Bp and aurasphere which got a nerf to 160 bp instead of being 180 really is only effective for the element of surprise just as zoroark is used and he isn't banned and shouldn't be.


Okay so overall I appreciate having the opportunity to compete in both ladders and evaluate the differences of Mega and standard Lucario. With everything done and said Mega lucario's buffs are his defense increase his 240 base close combat and the biggest by far his base 355 speed damn fast. Standard Lucario LO offers a stronger extreme speed picking off weakened pokemon much easier as well as taking out faster threats such as talon flame, while Standard also has stronger coverage moves on pokemon such as aegislash. Overall with all this said I believe he should get a ban.

Please give me feed back on everything as well I hope many people change their votes as a result of this post. Also I'm sure the grammar and spelling is off in many spots after typing this extremely long post. Thanks.
Even if adamant regular lucario with life orb hits almost as hard as the mega. Jolly Mega Lucario has a really good speed stat. So just saying they can hit on the same level is stupid.

So I'm not seeing the point of those calcs at all. Mega Lucario hits harder and is a lot faster.
 

Deluks917

Ride on Shooting Star
Physical mega-lucario is very close to a faster (but bullet punch or weaker ES) version of normal lucario. It is not that hard to check.

Special lucario needs a dark/ghost move or it is walled by aegislash (pretty big problem unless you have pursuit bisharp). This means if you want Nasty plot you need to pick one of aura sphere and vacuum wave. Only having one is really limiting. I think 5 attack special lucario would be broken. But it can only actually use 4 and seems fine to me.
 
Physical mega-lucario is very close to a faster (but bullet punch or weaker ES) version of normal lucario. It is not that hard to check.

Special lucario needs a dark/ghost move or it is walled by aegislash (pretty big problem unless you have pursuit bisharp). This means if you want Nasty plot you need to pick one of aura sphere and vacuum wave. Only having one is really limiting. I think 5 attack special lucario would be broken. But it can only actually use 4 and seems fine to me.
Congratulations! You figured out that each set has its own checks and counters! Your reward is figuring out which set it's using before it's too late! Is it Physical? Is it Special? Is it Mixed? Too late--you is teh dead.
 
Comparing Mega Mewtwo to Mega Lucario is a horrible analogy mega Mewtwo X is much cheaper and was banned as soon as it was released into the meta because of a base speed of 130 and 190 attack stat all its stats overall completely outrank Mega lucario. If Mega Lucario ends up getting a ban it will be similar to that of genesect and garchomp of last gen just making the deadline and there will be disagreement, while Mega Mewtwo X there is no question that he is way to unhealthy to the meta and was banned as soon as he was released for that exact reason. In my post I was trying to stress that Lucario LO has his own advantages over his Mega having both stronger extreme speed and coverage moves. Lucario LO being banned is not at all what I was stressing that would be absolutely insane. I'm also not even arguing that LO Lucario is better than his mega his mega is in S tier as he is in B which I find to be very accurate. His base speed stat of 355 is most deadly but at the end of the day Physical lucario really struggles against any ghost type pokemon which most people will use. Also one consistent check to both sets that stop him in his tracks are thunder wave prankster klefki crippling him completely and wrecking that 355 speed base stat.
 
Its already day 1....And Lucarionite is still not banned lol.

I didn't make req's but my opinion is:

Lucarionite is broken. You don't know what it is until it has either killed a 'mon or setup on you. If its the latter, then you probably lost.

Genesect is an iffy one. I ran into one of these every two matches at least, and while it never gave me problems, the momentum it gave with that strong U-Turn was incredible. I carry Heatran, and every time this thing switched in on a Ferrothorn I always had to wonder--"Switch to Heatran and get U-Turned or stay in and risk getting Ferrothorn Flamethrower'ed." This isn't broken at all, but when you look at it, with Genesect's coverage and power, the ability to always be able to bring in your counter for an opponent's pokemon is pretty damn nifty.

I think this thing gets tested again, if only because Expert Belt set is devastating if you expected Scarf.....which truly we all expect scarf.

Deoxys-S. This thing is kinda crap (of course, in the context of banning). Now that's just me, since my team as a whole didn't really mind Spikes, but even when it was attacking it wasn't too much of a threat. Its fast and it dies fast.
 
Comparing Mega Mewtwo to Mega Lucario is a horrible analogy mega Mewtwo X is much cheaper and was banned as soon as it was released into the meta because of a base speed of 130 and 190 attack stat all its stats overall completely outrank Mega lucario. If Mega Lucario ends up getting a ban it will be similar to that of genesect and garchomp of last gen just making the deadline and there will be disagreement, while Mega Mewtwo X there is no question that he is way to unhealthy to the meta and was banned as soon as he was released for that exact reason. In my post I was trying to stress that Lucario LO has his own advantages over his Mega having both stronger extreme speed and coverage moves. Lucario LO being banned is not at all what I was stressing that would be absolutely insane. I'm also not even arguing that LO Lucario is better than his mega his mega is in S tier as he is in B which I find to be very accurate. His base speed stat of 355 is most deadly but at the end of the day Physical lucario really struggles against any ghost type pokemon which most people will use. Also one consistent check to both sets that stop him in his tracks are thunder wave prankster klefki crippling him completely and wrecking that 355 speed base stat.
You missed the entire point of my post. I was in no way comparing Lucario to MMewtwo-X. I am aware that MMewtwo-X is extremely overpowered and unhealthy for the OU meta, nobody is arguing that. However, some of the arguments here for making Lucarionite and Deoxys-S OU is that it's easily revenge killed by the likes of Talonflame and Aegislash. The same can be said for many of the threats in Ubers, but that doesn't make them any less Uber or any less detrimental to the metagame.
 
Many Pokemon are weak to priority and are easily revenge killed. That can't discount a Pokemon from Uber Status. Interestingly enough, CB Talonflame/Aegislash/Bisharp/Genesect would all cause problems for Deoxys-A (which is Uber). I don't believe a Pokemon can be crippled by having their Special Attack sharply lowered, as a simple switch out remedies this problem - an example of a crippled Pokemon would be a burnt Landorus. Many anti-ban arguments seem to be based on ridiculous 1v1 scenarios that no player in their right mind would proceed with. Suspect testing is supposed to be based on "brokenness" relative to strategic team play, so it's best to stick with that mindset.
Okay that's true, I remember the point about revenge killing from the Lucario discussion. I stand by the point that it is crippled by having its main stab lower halve its special attack though - the fact that it has to switch out every time it gets a kill, combined with its mediocre defenses giving it a hard time switching back in, makes it severely hurt as a cleaner. You can only "clean" one pokemon at a time (maybe two if the first one is 4X weak to fire or ice), then you have to switch Deoxys-S out and find a way to get it back in. It's still an amazing revenge killer, but imo that's not enough to make it broken.
 
Pokemon aren't suspect-tested because they're "broken," they're tested because they may have a overcentralizing, negative effect on the tier.

Mega Lucario may have checks, but the fact that they differ from set to set and you need multiple checks on one team may be a sign that it puts heavy restrictions on teambuilding. You could argue that some of these checks are common and can fulfill multiple jobs, but needing things like AV Conkeldurr and bulky Moltres on every team just to counter it doesn't disprove the fact that you still had to do devote not just one out of twenty-four moveslots, but two our of six TEAMslots just to make sure this thing doesn't steamroll your team.

Genesect and Deoxys-S may not be "broken," but the reason that we're debating them is not because they are too powerful for the metagame to handle. It's whether their presence in OU has an unhealthy effect on the tier, directly or indirectly, that makes the player gravitate either toward their use or toward dedicating an overt portion of their team toward checking or countering them. I cannot adamantly say whether this is the case for either of these two, because this "overt portion" is subjective; some people may think an entire Pokemon just to counter another is too much, others think that an entire coverage move is too much, still others fine with devoting two entire teamslots to checking or countering a Pokemon or its effects.

I think people need to stop throwing the term "broken" so freely. If something is "broken," that literally means its power destroys the metagame as we know it. Such Pokemon are usually instabanned. None of the three suspects are "broken," but their effect on the metagame certainly does bring to question whether their presence in OU is good for competitive battling.
 
I think overall the metagame's shift to bulk and things that can generally handle Genesect has increased (Tran's still around as good as ever especially with Dugtrio being so uncommon but there's also Mega Venusaur, both Mega Charizard, Talonflame, Aegislash, Quagsire, Suicune now that it's good again without shitty sleep mechanics, SpD Zap, Mandibuzz, and well played Defog to stop SR + U-turn from being too ridiculous) and they're so prominent that it doesn't deserve a ban (yet, anyway... I won't pretend it isn't still pretty absurd to handle at times). With it losing resists to Dark and Ghost things such as Bisharp can cleave through it as well. I can definitely see it being broken within another round or two at most especially since CB (and a potentially Download boosted) ExtremeSpeed can sometimes be a bit overwhelming for offense along with its 6 million other options but for now I think it's alright although I definitely can sympathize with the sentiments of those who want it kicked out.

Deo-S probably doesn't deserve to go yet either. Mega Luc definitely does though. My 2 cents.
 

Albacore

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I've been using Deo-S, and it's pretty great. I'm not entirely sure if it's broken exactly, but it's still very potent. For me, it mainly acts as an emergency escape button if something powerful is about to stomp your team, but can also wallbreak pretty well. He's one of the few Pokemon who can break through both Blissey and Gliscor with the same set.

Personally, I run him with 0 speed EVs. He has problems with scarfers, but he's faster than the entire unboosted metagame besides Mega-Alakazam. In return, both his attack and special attack reach 400 with Life Orb taken into account. He's basically a pokemon with 140/140/150 base offensive stats, but without an item and taking damage every turn.

Of course, that's probably not the best spread. But that's the great thing about Deo-S : you can tailor him to outspeed anything up to, and including, Scarf Garchomp, and create the balance you want between power and speed. You should probably pack Scarf Latios or Terrakion to deal with faster Scarfers. But Deo-S can hit harder than any Choice Scarf user, and can also switch moves. Not many Pokemon common in OU can take both a Psycho Boost and a Superpower from it too well, especially given the lack of viable Psychic-types. Steel-types fare decently against it, (it can't 2HKO Skarmory, Bisharp defeats it if it switches into anything other than Superpower and Aegislash is a great counter), but it really doesn't seem to mind getting checked too much. It's very much a hit-and-run Pokemon. It behaves much like a scarfer, except it isn't necessarily easy to check.

The only problem with it is that, for some reason I don't understand, it doesn't get Fire Blast. If it did, then I think it might be broken, but without, it can't deal with many Steel-Types and has to settle for the measly Fire Punch which is never useful except if you're facing a weakened Ferrothorn and don't want to drop your Attack and Defense stats.

So, overall, it's not broken, it's just a great Pokemon with a very solid niche. It's a bit of a jack-of-all-trades, which can both work as a revenge killer, end game cleaner, and wallbreaker while not being all that good at any. It definitely should get more usage than it does.
 
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Made Reqs. took longer than expected because of school/cold but meh Capture.PNG Capture2.PNG

Lukes Mega stone BAN. Not going to go into it since there is plenty on in already discussed in the thread

Genesect: Don't Ban. Needs to be tested without Mega Luke

Deo-S: Don't Ban. See Genesect
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
Made Reqs. took longer than expected because of school/cold but meh View attachment 8937 View attachment 8938

Lukes Mega stone BAN. Not going to go into it since there is plenty on in already discussed in the thread

Genesect: Don't Ban. Needs to be tested without Mega Luke

Deo-S: Don't Ban. See Genesect
Uh, I'm really sorry to dissappoint you, but the deadline for making reqs was yesterday. Also, this isn't the thread to post it in,
THIS is. And again, the dead line already passed, so if you still want to vote, you gotta take it up with haunter.
 

Rurushu

Sleepless Strategist
is a Past WCoP Champion
Both Mega-Lucario and Deoxys-S results are already set in stone so i'll only talk about Genesect:

Currently his presence in the metagame isn't anything to worry about since he's mostly used as a scarfer. However, i don't think it's fair to assume he's a healthy presence just because his most common set isn't an issue even though it's a very good set. Let's stop for a second and list all the possibilities he has:
Scarf (Physical)
Scarf (Special)
Scarf (Mixed)
Band
Specs
Life Orb (Physical)
Life Orb (Special)
Life Orb (Mixed)
Life Orb (Shift Gear Physical)
Life Orb (Shift Gear Mixed)
And much more such as Douse Drive or Expert Belt bluffing a choice set (which, again, could be either physical, mixed or special) and all-out special with Shift Gear bluffing a Physical Set.

So yeah, he's pretty easy to handle if you assume he'll only be used as a Scarfer, but it's nearly impossible to handle all of his sets and every single one of them is great on its own right; it's not as if they're gimmicks to bait counters, they're all viable even if the opponent nows exactly what you're running, which is extremely unlikely to happen since Genesect can fit in pretty much in any team with most of these sets since he can also provide great utility with Extremespeed, U-Turn and being a Steel.
Think of it like this: Would you consider Rayquaza OU material if you mostly faced Choice Band variants even if you knew that there's a multitude of viable sets that you couldn't possible handle? I wouldn't.
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
is a Pokemon Researcher
Man that post has like everything wrong.

Douse Drive is revealed to your opponent, you can't bluff shit with it.

Half the sets you listed are outclassed by the other half of Gene's sets and are unviable.

And then, on top of all that, you compare Gene to goddamn Rayquaza. How much more could you destroy your own arguments by not knowing shit and using fallacies on top of that lol
 
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