XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

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Rurushu

Sleepless Strategist
is a Past WCoP Champion
You could, you know, explain how they're outclassed (which they aren't, but you can try, even if some are a little bit easier to fit in a team) instead of simply disagreeing with it, and if you pay attention you'll notice that in no way i'm comparing Genesect to Rayquaza as a pokemon, i'm merely stating that people underutilizing something isn't a good reason to decide its tier.

But you're right Douse Drive being revealed once Genesect enters the field, however there was a Showdown bug not long ago which allowed that and the argument about Expert Belt bluffing a choice set remains the same.
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
Uh, lets list genesect's actual viable sets. That was some weird stuff.

Scarfsect, the most common. Basic revenge killer+momentum stealer
Bandsect, hits a hard U-turn and boasts a powerful Espeed
Specssect, I've only seen this once but I assume its just to hit hard AF. I've seen it used properly
Ebelt Special: This is great at bluffing scarfsect. Can really catch opponents off guard when played right.
All-out-Attacker w/LO: I've seen it used, but honestly, this is better off just bluffing scarf.
Shift Gear: Has terrible coverage but good power and great cleaning ability, with good priority. It's all right, I don't really like it.
Rock Polish: Another great cleaner, I honestly prefer this more due to better coverage. But this one isn't the greatest either.

Mixed sets in general just lean toward one spectrum with one special coverage move, like a Physical set with U-turn/Iron head/Espeed/Ice beam. I don't really consider that mixed.
Special sets with shift gear is a pretty bad idea as you heavily depend on the special boost, even more so than Rock Polish because you're forced to run hasty with shift gear, but with Rock Polish you can atleast go modest

Also, while he has several sets, these sets don't beat each other's counters like mega luke does, as every set can be taken on by heatran. While it may be tough to do in practice, all you literally have to do is keep heatran healthy and you will never have a problem with genesect. And this goes for any set, not just scarf, which makes him a lot less broken and versatile. Of course, he is still way to good at stealing momentum, so I still think he deserves a ban, but it can't viably run THAT many sets.
 

Rurushu

Sleepless Strategist
is a Past WCoP Champion
Shift Gear with 3 special moves is slightly weaker and is more vulnerable to Foul Play but i'd rather have the surprise factor. It may not be very consistent, but it's a strong bluff which can be done without sacrificing too much, so it should always be taken in consideration since using Rock Polish is a deadgiveaway that you're most likely not running any physical move, while using Shift Gear could make you lure things such as Gliscor and Landorus-T.

And yes, i agree that Heatran is the perfect counter and this makes him a lot more manageable (unless Genesect runs HP Ground which i've seen before in a Life Orb set) but like you said you have to keep it healthy (which is hard for a pokémon with no recovery outside Leftovers) and it's not enough to stop his momentum or stop him from revenge killing stuff.
 
Heatran only does meaningful work as a counter if it doesn't have to switch into Genesect. Otherwise Genesect just u-turns to something that can OHKO Heatran since ground-type moves are literally everywhere in this metagame. Balloon Tran? lol.

Do not downplay Genesect's ability to effortlessly shift momentum in your favor, because that's exactly how it wins matches. Maybe it can stay in OU if bug immunity ever becomes a thing.


EDIT: sorry for the circular argument, but I feel like it needs to be said every time someone says genesect can be "taken on" by heatran
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
Countless pokemon effortless gain switch advantage, it doesnt break the game in the hands of Gene.

Heatran is perfectly capable of pressuring sets like band, specs and LO all out attacker that should be able to demolish teams with power into using u-turn which is valuable regardless. Plenty of gene sets dont even run u-turn, the life orb set ends up doing more to itself than the opponent if it has to spam u-turn, yet it is a monster.
 
I'm on the following opinion:
Mega Luke: Ban. Both of his sets are incredibly dangerous, and that base 112 speed with priority moves just makes him a monster. He limits every team to have to build counters in their team to him (See Mega Khan), and in general is not good for the metagame.
Genesect: Ban. The best scarfer in OU for miles. No one comes close. It has fantastic typing, fantastic basestats, a fantastic movepool, and goes from being the best lead in OU to the best cleanup 'mon in OU within the same game. There's no reason to run any other Scarfer if you're playing OU because Genesect outclasses all of them. Another 'mon that limits building.
Deoxys-S: Don't ban. This thing has checks. Despite his tools, he's frail enough that it's a good tradeoff for those tools. I've actually found that a lead Forretress is the best counter to Deoxys-S. Turn 1, it's almost guaranteed that they'll Taunt or Magic Coat, to which you Gyro Ball in their face, which does over half. At that point they can either try to salvage Deoxys, or they'll throw up rocks and die, which Forretress can spin away later. That's just one example, but I generally don't see people have too much trouble with this guy. He should stay.
 
Alright let's talk Genesect since it's pretty obvious Lucarionite will be gone and Deoxys-S is going to be here to stay (for now). The issue with Genesect isn't just the fact that it can gain momentum with the effortless switching. As many people have pointed out, many Pokemon can gain effortless switching and it is arguably even better on a Pokemon like Rotom-Wash which is slower and can see the opponent's move while absorbing damage before making the switch. In fact, I don't even think Ground's Electric-resist is a good balance to Rotom-Wash since if you predict a switch you can Hydro Pump or Will-o-Wisp and severely cripple most Ground-types in the current metagame. But Rotom-Wash isn't broken because it has a fairly defined role and can't do much else. Additionally, a Volt Switch from Rotom-Wash isn't even going to cripple much it does 2x damage to.

The difference is that Genesect gets an incredibly powerful STAB U-Turn that can deal some heavy damage throughout a match with oftentimes unknowable coverage moves. Look at the coverage moves it has access to and then realize that you can find a place for it on basically any team by filling it with coverage moves to cover your team's weaknesses. U-Turn, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Bug Buzz, Energy Ball, Hidden Power Ground (guaranteed OHKO on all non-Balloon Heatran), Extremespeed, Iron Head, Blaze Kick, X-Scissor, and even Explosion. All of these moves are perfectly viable and there isn't a single check that is going to cover all of them. Some may be more common than others but that is an absolute ass ton of possibilities you have to cover as many of the later moves I listed can create a huge advantage with their surprise OHKOs (or at least severe damage).

So coverage is fantastic but supreme coverage isn't all it boasts. It can carry Choice Scarf (Phys or Spec), Choice Band, Expert Belt (which is very dangerous with the coverage and the possibility to bluff a Scarf), LO, and Shift Gear. And those are just the sets that are definitely viable. This means that you really have no idea what you're dealing with until you can confirm a Scarf which can be hard to do on a Pokemon that will force a lot of switches while U-Turning out. So walling it is really a guessing game at best and even Heatran falls short as it's an obvious switch into Genesect which leads to an obvious U-Turn that will force out the Heatran. Genesect in the hands of a smart teambuilder with good prediction can be almost impossible to stop.

I think one of the reasons many people don't think it's banworthy is that it's power really isn't overwhelming even with the Download boost. It definitely has it's OHKOs but they are reasonable for any Pokemon given any one Genesect set. However, you don't know what coverage moves your opponent may be carrying so they can often bluff you to switch when you don't even need to to rack up the residual damage. Genesect should not be Uber or anything close to it based on power alone. It is the fact that its mechanics are so abusable given good teambuilding and prediction. Just because an unskilled player may not be able to properly abuse it, doesn't mean that it encourages skill in the metagame either. Two players of equal skill would essentially make predicting a roll of the dice so it introduces a ton of luck into the game.

Based on the mechanics it presents, an OP pivot move, unknowable sets, bluffing potential coverage moves and Scarves, absolutely sick numbers of viable sets and the inability of anything in the metagame to properly check it, I think it's pretty clear that it deserves a ban. If sets were knowable and it didn't allow for so many OHKOs it would be fine. The issue isn't that any one thing makes it broken. It's that the combination of everything it can do and will do makes it broken.
 
Heatran only does meaningful work as a counter if it doesn't have to switch into Genesect. Otherwise Genesect just u-turns to something that can OHKO Heatran since ground-type moves are literally everywhere in this metagame. Balloon Tran? lol.

Do not downplay Genesect's ability to effortlessly shift momentum in your favor, because that's exactly how it wins matches. Maybe it can stay in OU if bug immunity ever becomes a thing.


EDIT: sorry for the circular argument, but I feel like it needs to be said every time someone says genesect can be "taken on" by heatran
I know people were running dugtrio for this reason u turn into a free kill.
 
I know people were running dugtrio for this reason u turn into a free kill.
Dugtrio with Genesect isn't really a great Heatran counter because with Team Preview it's pretty obvious what they are going to be trying to do. You can pretty easily predict the U-Turn into the Dugtrio and make your own switch which gains momentum for you so running Genesect with Dugtrio is somewhat of a double-edged sword. Good players can easily outplay this.

Should also say that this is specific to Dugtrio because it honestly doesn't really function well against the majority of the OU metagame. For more well-rounded threats a Genesect U-Turn can be very dangerous against a Heatran even if they properly predict the switch.
 

Albacore

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Turn 1, it's almost guaranteed that they'll Taunt or Magic Coat, to which you Gyro Ball in their face, which does over half. At that point they can either try to salvage Deoxys, or they'll throw up rocks and die, which Forretress can spin away later. That's just one example, but I generally don't see people have too much trouble with this guy. He should stay.
Does Deo-S ever run Magic Coat? Or Taunt, for that matter? Fire Punch is pretty much guaranteed on most Deo-S, and although Foretress can live one, it gets 2HKO'd so isn't good against Deo-S in the slightest.
 
Dugtrio with Genesect isn't really a great Heatran counter because with Team Preview it's pretty obvious what they are going to be trying to do. You can pretty easily predict the U-Turn into the Dugtrio and make your own switch which gains momentum for you so running Genesect with Dugtrio is somewhat of a double-edged sword. Good players can easily outplay this.

Should also say that this is specific to Dugtrio because it honestly doesn't really function well against the majority of the OU metagame. For more well-rounded threats a Genesect U-Turn can be very dangerous against a Heatran even if they properly predict the switch.
Predicting a u-turn won't gain you momentum, and effectively trio means you're not using heatran at all. Basically, no matter if you're a good player you're down a poké while they have duggie and you have heatran because you're not using it at all.
 
Does Deo-S ever run Magic Coat? Or Taunt, for that matter? Fire Punch is pretty much guaranteed on most Deo-S, and although Foretress can live one, it gets 2HKO'd so isn't good against Deo-S in the slightest.
I think many of the hyper offensive teams would be sorely tempted to Taunt before using the Fire Punch on Forretress as cleaning up hazards can be an inconvenience to some of them. That said, I wouldn't consider to Forretress to be a very viable counter just because, at a minimum, Deoxys-S can still get up Rocks before dying and then you have a Forretress sitting out there doing nothing against the hyper offensive assault you are likely to face. It can Spin after it goes down to Sturdy but basically you've traded your hazard setter and spinner for their hazard setter and you've lost a defensive wall against a hyper offensive team. Not exactly the best situation to be in.
 
Does Deo-S ever run Magic Coat? Or Taunt, for that matter? Fire Punch is pretty much guaranteed on most Deo-S, and although Foretress can live one, it gets 2HKO'd so isn't good against Deo-S in the slightest.
I just faced a Deoxys-S running Magic Coat. It's not terribly common, but people do run it.
Generally the more offensive variants run Fire Punch, which is fine. Why? Well, you seemed to imply that Deoxys-S doesn't run Taunt, which most of them do just because of the Sturdy hazard setters.
I'm not saying that Forretress is "OMG #1 DEOXYSS COUNTER," I'm just saying that it and plenty of other pokemon can deal with hazard setting Deoxys-S. Offensive Deoxys-S is another matter, but that also doesn't end up being too big of a problem because, as I previously stated, Deoxys-S has a weakness that balances him out offensively, that being his poor defenses.
My point is, Deoxys-S has enough weaknesses that most teams can deal with it without having to dedicate counters.
 
Predicting a u-turn won't gain you momentum, and effectively trio means you're not using heatran at all. Basically, no matter if you're a good player you're down a poké while they have duggie and you have heatran because you're not using it at all.
Outside of opposing Heatran, Dugtrio has little else that it really shines at in the OU metagame. So, while Dugtrio can prevent you from bringing in Heatran (it doesn't completely do this as Heatran can actually be used to bait out Dugtrio as well when not switching in to a pivot), it basically is going to be a Pokemon your opponent cannot use for much either. So it puts you each down one Pokemon and that's really assuming teams are even running a Heatran in the first place. If they aren't your Dugtrio has very little utility to kill the real threats in this metagame.
 
Dugtrio with Genesect isn't really a great Heatran counter because with Team Preview it's pretty obvious what they are going to be trying to do. You can pretty easily predict the U-Turn into the Dugtrio and make your own switch which gains momentum for you so running Genesect with Dugtrio is somewhat of a double-edged sword. Good players can easily outplay this.

Should also say that this is specific to Dugtrio because it honestly doesn't really function well against the majority of the OU metagame. For more well-rounded threats a Genesect U-Turn can be very dangerous against a Heatran even if they properly predict the switch.
Except if you "predict" U-turn and switch, the switch happens before the U-turn. The U-turner doesn't have to predict a switch, they get to see it happen and react accordingly.
 
Except if you "predict" U-turn and switch, the switch happens before the U-turn. The U-turner doesn't have to predict a switch, they get to see it happen and react accordingly.
Two things about that. First if you are already facing the Genesect and you believe it will U-Turn, you can switch out your Heatran and while, yes, they can see that, your Heatran is going to be safe and you can look at their team to determine your best play to conserve as much momentum as possible (perhaps I should have said conserve not gains in my OP on the subject). It isn't ideal from a momentum standpoint but when Genesect is using U-Turn it really never is. The larger point is that you aren't at risk of losing your Heatran if you play it correctly. Second, if Rocks are up, which they obviously won't always be but commonly are, Dugtrio can't safely switch into Heatran because it will get OHKOd by a Fire Blast from the SpA variant on the switch and even a SpAtker running Lava Plume has a 31.8% chance to OHKO after Rocks (81.3% with favorable nature but most offensive Heatran boost speed). A Specs Heatran would guarantee an OHKO in either scenario. So if Dugtrio cannot keep the sash, the only variety of Heatran he is going to be able to do much against is the Specially Defensive Heatran.
 
Two things about that. First if you are already facing the Genesect and you believe it will U-Turn, you can switch out your Heatran and while, yes, they can see that, your Heatran is going to be safe and you can look at their team to determine your best play to conserve as much momentum as possible (perhaps I should have said conserve not gains in my OP on the subject). It isn't ideal from a momentum standpoint but when Genesect is using U-Turn it really never is. The larger point is that you aren't at risk of losing your Heatran if you play it correctly. Second, if Rocks are up, which they obviously won't always be but commonly are, Dugtrio can't safely switch into Heatran because it will get OHKOd by a Fire Blast from the SpA variant on the switch and even a SpAtker running Lava Plume has a 31.8% chance to OHKO after Rocks. A Specs Heatran would guarantee an OHKO in either scenario. So if Dugtrio cannot keep the sash, the only variety of Heatran he is going to be able to do much against is the Specially Defensive Heatran.
Which is also the most used Heatran if not mistaken.......

EDIT: CRAP! I missed the 100 post mark........ how did I do that?
 
Last edited:

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
Outside of opposing Heatran, Dugtrio has little else that it really shines at in the OU metagame. So, while Dugtrio can prevent you from bringing in Heatran (it doesn't completely do this as Heatran can actually be used to bait out Dugtrio as well when not switching in to a pivot), it basically is going to be a Pokemon your opponent cannot use for much either. So it puts you each down one Pokemon and that's really assuming teams are even running a Heatran in the first place. If they aren't your Dugtrio has very little utility to kill the real threats in this metagame.
Helllo? Dugtrio can do FAR more than just beat heatran. He can also beat and trap the following:
Tyranitar
Excadrill
Aegislash (Beats Tank with 20%~ prior damage, always beats crumbler)
Bisharp
Lucario
Volcorona

You need a focus sash to take on most of these guys, but come on, these are all relevant threats in the metagame which dugtrio beats!

Two things about that. First if you are already facing the Genesect and you believe it will U-Turn, you can switch out your Heatran and while, yes, they can see that, your Heatran is going to be safe and you can look at their team to determine your best play to conserve as much momentum as possible (perhaps I should have said conserve not gains in my OP on the subject). It isn't ideal from a momentum standpoint but when Genesect is using U-Turn it really never is. The larger point is that you aren't at risk of losing your Heatran if you play it correctly. Second, if Rocks are up, which they obviously won't always be but commonly are, Dugtrio can't safely switch into Heatran because it will get OHKOd by a Fire Blast from the SpA variant on the switch and even a SpAtker running Lava Plume has a 31.8% chance to OHKO after Rocks. A Specs Heatran would guarantee an OHKO in either scenario. So if Dugtrio cannot keep the sash, the only variety of Heatran he is going to be able to do much against is the Specially Defensive Heatran.
Ook I don't think you're getting something
Let's take this out step by step

Turn 1:
Opponent has genesect (has dugtrio in the back), you lead with Latias or something idk
U-turn is obvious. You have heatran to take it, but then dugtrio kills you. So now what?

If you want to keep heatran away from the u-turn, that means the opponent u-turns on whatever you keep in, and you lose momentum anyway.
If you keep latias in, sure, heatran's alive, but now latias took a huge chunk of damage and you probably lost momentum. You're not conserving any momentum by letting genesect just u-turn on whatever you have out. So the idea of a gene+dug core is that the opponent either loses heatran or loses momentum. It's pretty good.

It isn't ideal from a momentum standpoint but when Genesect is using U-Turn it really never is.
That's why genesect needs to be banned lol.

Aight next:

Second, if Rocks are up, which they obviously won't always be but commonly are, Dugtrio can't safely switch into Heatran because it will get OHKOd by a Fire Blast from the SpA variant on the switch and even a SpAtker running Lava Plume has a 31.8% chance to OHKO after Rocks. A Specs Heatran would guarantee an OHKO in either scenario.
So if you lead with heatran, and genesect is the opponents lead, there's no actual way rocks will be up. That's the only scenario in which genesect should ever be in on heatran. Your scenario of heatran fire blasting dugtrio on the switch with rocks up only works when genesect was, for some retarded reason, in on your heatran in the first place. Genesect should never do that, it should always u-turn out as heatran comes in, then we go into dugtrio there and blah blah blah. Essentially, heatran should never get the chance to attack dugtrio if you play it decently.

Lastly

So if Dugtrio cannot keep the sash, the only variety of Heatran he is going to be able to do much against is the Specially Defensive Heatran.
Specially Defensive heatran is the most relevant and common heatran anyway, so this isn't a great argument. All the more reason that dugtrio works.
 
Helllo? Dugtrio can do FAR more than just beat heatran. He can also beat and trap the following:
Tyranitar
Excadrill
Aegislash (Beats Tank with 20%~ prior damage, always beats crumbler)
Bisharp
Lucario
Volcorona

You need a focus sash to take on most of these guys, but come on, these are all relevant threats in the metagame which dugtrio beats!



Ook I don't think you're getting something
Let's take this out step by step

Turn 1:
Opponent has genesect (has dugtrio in the back), you lead with Latias or something idk
U-turn is obvious. You have heatran to take it, but then dugtrio kills you. So now what?

If you want to keep heatran away from the u-turn, that means the opponent u-turns on whatever you keep in, and you lose momentum anyway.
If you keep latias in, sure, heatran's alive, but now latias took a huge chunk of damage and you probably lost momentum. You're not conserving any momentum by letting genesect just u-turn on whatever you have out. So the idea of a gene+dug core is that the opponent either loses heatran or loses momentum. It's pretty good.



That's why genesect needs to be banned lol.

Aight next:



So if you lead with heatran, and genesect is the opponents lead, there's no actual way rocks will be up. That's the only scenario in which genesect should ever be in on heatran. Your scenario of heatran fire blasting dugtrio on the switch with rocks up only works when genesect was, for some retarded reason, in on your heatran in the first place. Genesect should never do that, it should always u-turn out as heatran comes in, then we go into dugtrio there and blah blah blah. Essentially, heatran should never get the chance to attack dugtrio if you play it decently.

Lastly



Specially Defensive heatran is the most relevant and common heatran anyway, so this isn't a great argument. All the more reason that dugtrio works.
Dugtrio cannot counter Aegislash with Shadow Sneak as it takes a hit on the switch and then gets Sneaked to death after Sash. Same story for Bisharp who will do the same to it with Sucker Punch and Mega Luke who has priority and will not be with us much longer anyway. Volcarona doesn't have a weakness to Ground because of its Bug-typing and there are far superior counters to it anyway as it's pretty frail. Excadrill generally plays a support role and while its nice to kill, it isn't a threat worth running a Pokemon with the lack of utility of Dugtrio. Tyranitar is the only actual threat you brought up that Dugtrio does counter but, since every team has a Fighting-Type move Tyranitar really isn't too hard to counter to begin with.

In your scenario with Latias and Heatran, I'm not sure why you are assuming that, a) anyone in their right mind is leading Latias when they see a Genesect in Team Preview or b) that you don't have a good switch in as a jumping off point to create your own momentum. If you don't, your team isn't very well built. Genesect is certainly very good at creating that momentum but that's the nature of pivots in general. You better be able to counter them even if Genesect gets (deservedly) banned. Similarly, you're never leading Heatran if you see Genesect and Dugtrio on an opponent's team. You're going to save it for later.

Specially Defensive Heatran is the most common Heatran but I personally don't think it's the best set and it certainly isn't the only set. So take Heatran's usage statistics and factor in that its used a lot of different ways and you may be killing a Heatran on 10-15% of teams in the scenario that Rocks are up. Heatran is NEVER switching into Genesect if Dugtrio is on its team. You better have more than one Pokemon that can take Genesect's U-Turn without getting crippled.
 
Dugtrio is mainly there to trap Heatran which is Genesect's main counter. It won't work all the time but the genesect player can usually put more pressure to the opposing team, being able to bring that thing safely in.
Dugtrio cant do anything really agains Aegislash. Neither trap it nor OHKO it without any Hone Claw boosts.
 
Dugtrio is mainly there to trap Heatran which is Genesect's main counter. It won't work all the time but the genesect player can usually put more pressure to the opposing team, being able to bring that thing safely in.
Dugtrio cant do anything really agains Aegislash. Neither trap it nor OHKO it without any Hone Claw boosts.
Any Ground move is going to threaten Heatran without Air Balloon and on a team with Genesect a U-Turn would theoretically pop Heatran's Balloon before switching the Dugtrio in. Of course while Heatran may stay in for Ground-moves it can switch out on it would be insane to stay in with Dugtrio waiting in the fold. But imagine that instead you U-Turn into Landorus. Now your opponent is going to have to switch out the Heatran, losing the momentum and will have to get hit hard with something else if they want to keep their Heatran. Because Landorus has much better coverage and can severely hurt many more threats, they are going to have some decisions to make. This scenario will arise far, far, more often than someone being dumb enough to switch into a Genesect with their Heatran when a Dugtrio is waiting for them on Team Preview. One underrated part of this game is that if you have forced your opponent to switch that is GOOD for you because it gives you the opportunity to grab momentum by either double switching or predicting and hitting something else hard or setting up. Dugtrio gives you none of these opportunities and, because its so frail, even if it does manage to kill a Heatran it will transfer that momentum right back to your opponent when it is forced to either switch out or die. The situations where Dugtrio would be better than another Ground-type threat for the overall battle are few and far between.
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
Dugtrio cannot counter Aegislash with Shadow Sneak as it takes a hit on the switch and then gets Sneaked to death after Sash. Same story for Bisharp who will do the same to it with Sucker Punch and Mega Luke who has priority and will not be with us much longer anyway. Volcarona doesn't have a weakness to Ground because of its Bug-typing and there are far superior counters to it anyway as it's pretty frail. Excadrill generally plays a support role and while its nice to kill, it isn't a threat worth running a Pokemon with the lack of utility of Dugtrio. Tyranitar is the only actual threat you brought up that Dugtrio does counter but, since every team has a Fighting-Type move Tyranitar really isn't too hard to counter to begin with.

In your scenario with Latias and Heatran, I'm not sure why you are assuming that, a) anyone in their right mind is leading Latias when they see a Genesect in Team Preview or b) that you don't have a good switch in as a jumping off point to create your own momentum. If you don't, your team isn't very well built. Genesect is certainly very good at creating that momentum but that's the nature of pivots in general. You better be able to counter them even if Genesect gets (deservedly) banned. Similarly, you're never leading Heatran if you see Genesect and Dugtrio on an opponent's team. You're going to save it for later.

Specially Defensive Heatran is the most common Heatran but I personally don't think it's the best set and it certainly isn't the only set. So take Heatran's usage statistics and factor in that its used a lot of different ways and you may be killing a Heatran on 10-15% of teams in the scenario that Rocks are up. Heatran is NEVER switching into Genesect if Dugtrio is on its team. You better have more than one Pokemon that can take Genesect's U-Turn without getting crippled.
Sorry about aegislash, keep forgetting that ghosts aren't trapped anymore :/

Anyway, I don't think you get how trappers work.

No trapper directly switches in on its victim, even wobuffet and gothitelle. Only magnezone does in rare cases (like when a banded scizor is about to use bullet punch) but even then, it's not really recommended (it cud predict and just u-turn)
You're supposed to bring in a trapper after a kill, or with slow pivots, or on really well predicted double switches. You don't simply switch your trapper into its victim, you play around until you get it in safely. This applies to any trapper. If people switched mega gengar directly in to what it wants to trap, it wouldn't be broken at all. Well, it is, because that's not how mega gengar works.

So, if you do get slow pivots into those targets I mentioned, and your sash is intact, you beat all of them 1v1 100% of the time, unless sash luke with espeed.
For reference, this is usually how a focus sash dugtrio looks like:

Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
IVs: 26 HP
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Reversal/Stealth Rock/Memento
(Smogon says that reversal shouldn't be slashed, and sucker punch should be instead, but I like sucker punch. Just my preference.)

Let's take a look (again) at how dugtrio beats these guys. Remember, you're getting dugtrio in safely with its sash intact.

Bisharp: It can sucker punch, but sash is there and it doesn't live eq. If bisharp has sash too, dugtrio's sucker punch is faster.
Tyranitar: Just eq twice
Volcarona: Stone edge duh dugtrio has more than eq.
Heatran: Eq
Excadrill: Eq, sucker punch if necessary

Tyranitar is the only actual threat you brought up that Dugtrio does counter but, since every team has a Fighting-Type move Tyranitar really isn't too hard to counter to begin with.
While its recommended that every team carry atleast one fighting type move, there is no requirement that a team has to have a fighting type move. There are plenty of other weaknesses tyranitar has that most teams will carry a move of.

In your scenario with Latias and Heatran, I'm not sure why you are assuming that, a) anyone in their right mind is leading Latias when they see a Genesect in Team Preview or b) that you don't have a good switch in as a jumping off point to create your own momentum. If you don't, your team isn't very well built.
This was purely a hypothetical scenario. Your lead doesn't have to be weak to u-turn, but the point is, is that you will lose momentum as the opponent switches into a safe check if you stay in, and if you go into heatran to neuter genesect dugtrio will come back in.
Again, if you do switch your lead out into a pokemon other than heatran, you still lose momentum, as nothing is immune to u-turn.
You should also remember that scarfsect, the most common one, with its godly coverage, can predict your good switch in and nail it with a coverage move to net some big damage turn 1. Certainly risky, but certainly possible. "Yolo" is a popular phrase these days.

Look at like this, this time I'll try to show a more realistic scenario:

Turn 1:
You lead with genesect (he still has dugtrio), the opponent leads with lando-t
2 options
1) stay in and u-turn/set rocks, super risky
2) Hard switch into rotom-w, to take an ice beam and a u-turn

2 is the smarter and more common choice, but the genesect player has two choices as well
1) Ice beam, pretty obvious he's gonna switch so its risky
2) U-turn. Pretty fail-safe, go with that.

2 is the smarter and more common choice here as well.
So thus you lose momentum.

Now let's further imagine the smart opponent has a pokemon to destroy rotom-w, like kyu-b
Your "good switch in as a jumping off point to create your own momentum" is instead threatened out as the kyu-b proceeds to set a sub
It doesn't even have to be a kyu-b, anything that hits really damn hard will do, like a thundurus or a latios.
You ultimately lose momentum, regardless of having everything you mentioned to fight off this strategy.



Genesect is certainly very good at creating that momentum but that's the nature of pivots in general. You better be able to counter them even if Genesect gets (deservedly) banned. Similarly, you're never leading Heatran if you see Genesect and Dugtrio on an opponent's team. You're going to save it for later.
Umm there's a problem here

Genesect is certainly very good at creating that momentum but that's the nature of pivots in general.
"pivots in general" don't have amazing ice/fire/electric coverage that threatens out well over 70% of the tier with a threat of those moves. A common pivot, like Lando-T, is much easier to wall not only because his coverage sucks, but because his ability in general doesn't help him offensively. And remember, Lando-T is an offensive pivot, not a defensive one, and a very common offensive pivot at that.
Genesect on the other hand forces out so many pokemon only to U-turn on them instead. No pokemon possesses the threat of such coverage and power while having u-turn as well, which is what separates genesect apart from other "pivots in general."

Similarly, you're never leading Heatran if you see Genesect and Dugtrio on an opponent's team. You're going to save it for later.
I also never suggested this. I stated that the only time Genesect will be facing heatran directly is when you lead with heatran and the opponent leads with genesect. A smart opponent will always u-turn on an incoming heatran, go into dugtrio, and blah blah blah. Heatran isn't the best lead, and I never told you to lead with him, but I only said that heatran will only ever be in on genesect unless you lead. This is important because you claimed dugtrio can't switch in to heatran directly, and acted as if that was your defense. Here, right here

Dugtrio can't safely switch into Heatran because it will get OHKOd by a Fire Blast from the SpA variant on the switch and even a SpAtker running Lava Plume has a 31.8% chance to OHKO after Rocks (81.3% with favorable nature but most offensive Heatran boost speed). A Specs Heatran would guarantee an OHKO in either scenario.
This will never happen because dugtrio will never have to switch directly into heatran. Again, you don't switch your trapper in directly, you get him in safely after a kill or with slow pivots (or good double switches). Think of it like this, for example. What if ferrothorn is just sitting there on heatran, leech seeding it and sitting there laying hazards? (Let's assume the heatran was switched into the ferrothorn)
Sure, you could just click lava plume and destroy it, but then what? Dugtrio comes in for free and heatran dies.
Note that you should only do this when ferrothorn is useless/set up bait, and/or when heatran is a problem
"Well you could just roar it out duh >_>"
Would you risk roaring it out into dugtrio? Not a risk you really want to take.

Specially Defensive Heatran is the most common Heatran but I personally don't think it's the best set and it certainly isn't the only set. So take Heatran's usage statistics and factor in that its used a lot of different ways and you may be killing a Heatran on 10-15% of teams in the scenario that Rocks are up. Heatran is NEVER switching into Genesect if Dugtrio is on its team. You better have more than one Pokemon that can take Genesect's U-Turn without getting crippled.
Another problem here

Heatran is NEVER switching into Genesect if Dugtrio is on its team. You better have more than one Pokemon that can take Genesect's U-Turn without getting crippled.
Jee, have two pokemon that can take on genesect's U-turn along with every coverage move it packs? Better run rotom-h too huh? Not limiting teambuilding at all.
The thing is, genesect is so damn good that heatran is usually the only thing people have for repeated assaults from this guy. He may be the weakest sect set, but it still hits hard with its good coverage and possible boost. This weakens the opposing team in general as it repeatedly takes genesect's attacks.

You may think a team should just be bulkier in general, "it's not a good team if it can't take genesect without its heatran." But putting a heatran generally gives people the illusion that genesect is taken care of, and they can proceed to put in pokemon that are weak to him. Of course, this is perfectly valid, its just that genedug cores take advantage of that. Not many teams will have TWO durable, solid answers to genesect, both of which aren't hindered in the slightest by dugtrio.

Any Ground move is going to threaten Heatran without Air Balloon and on a team with Genesect a U-Turn would theoretically pop Heatran's Balloon before switching the Dugtrio in. Of course while Heatran may stay in for Ground-moves it can switch out on it would be insane to stay in with Dugtrio waiting in the fold. But imagine that instead you U-Turn into Landorus. Now your opponent is going to have to switch out the Heatran, losing the momentum and will have to get hit hard with something else if they want to keep their Heatran. Because Landorus has much better coverage and can severely hurt many more threats, they are going to have some decisions to make. This scenario will arise far, far, more often than someone being dumb enough to switch into a Genesect with their Heatran when a Dugtrio is waiting for them on Team Preview. One underrated part of this game is that if you have forced your opponent to switch that is GOOD for you because it gives you the opportunity to grab momentum by either double switching or predicting and hitting something else hard or setting up. Dugtrio gives you none of these opportunities and, because its so frail, even if it does manage to kill a Heatran it will transfer that momentum right back to your opponent when it is forced to either switch out or die. The situations where Dugtrio would be better than another Ground-type threat for the overall battle are few and far between.
Ok what?

Of course while Heatran may stay in for Ground-moves it can switch out on it would be insane to stay in with Dugtrio waiting in the fold.
Similarly, you're never leading Heatran if you see Genesect and Dugtrio on an opponent's team. You're going to save it for later.
Well jee, Dunno why you'd be leading with heatran anyway. Because the only other way this scenario takes place is if Genesect is in vs. heatran, and that shouldn't ever happen unless they both lead.

But imagine that instead you U-Turn into Landorus. Now your opponent is going to have to switch out the Heatran, losing the momentum and will have to get hit hard with something else if they want to keep their Heatran.
Well first off, if the opponent lets you switch into lando-t, then he would let you switch into dugtrio, and you can just get rid of heatran right then and there. Sure, you would lose momentum, but would you rather lose momentum or take out a pokemon that is a crucial part of nearly every defensive core, sets rocks, has a billion resistances, and a bunch of other strengths that I'm not gonna list? I'd definitely do the latter.

This scenario will arise far, far, more often than someone being dumb enough to switch into a Genesect with their Heatran when a Dugtrio is waiting for them on Team Preview.
Well if people are dumb enough to not switch into heatran on a genesect when dugtrio is around, why would they do the same with lando-t? They know they're gonna just be forced out and lose momentum, so why would they ever switch heatran into genesect? I'm puzzled fren.

Dugtrio gives you none of these opportunities and, because its so frail, even if it does manage to kill a Heatran it will transfer that momentum right back to your opponent when it is forced to either switch out or die.
Well, you killed the heatran and now genesect is free to rampage about. That's dugtrio's main role, it's perfectly fine to let it die now. You've opened up genesect to harass a team whose only likely answer to it is now dead, so go ahead, sack dugtrio. You get to bring sect back in.

Hopefully this gives you a better idea of how dugtrio works, because he definitely shouldn't be brushed aside.
 
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Countless pokemon effortless gain switch advantage, it doesnt break the game in the hands of Gene.

Heatran is perfectly capable of pressuring sets like band, specs and LO all out attacker that should be able to demolish teams with power into using u-turn which is valuable regardless. Plenty of gene sets dont even run u-turn, the life orb set ends up doing more to itself than the opponent if it has to spam u-turn, yet it is a monster.
I hate being the guy who picks at other arguments, but this need to be said. Most Genesect sets DO run U-turn. Genesect without U-turn is not broken, I agree. But we can't rely on those few people who opt not to pack U-turn to form an anti-ban argument. Clearly you enjoy using Genesect, and I completely get that. It fits in to basically every team, has excellent and cool looking coverage moves, and it can switch out with powerful U-turn. I'm sorry though, it is broken.
 
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