tbh i think all of them are fine. this gen is very priority heavy, and with the likes of talonflame and ditto (to handle the likes of lucario0 being used a lot more I Don't see a problem with any of the 3 ._.
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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
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Hey guys long time lurker wanted to point out a few things, I think its very biased when people post things like Mega Lucario will get banned then go on to give their points to the other two pokemon. He seems like a candidate that should be up for suspect test because he is very strong, however after saying that I would like to argue that genesect actually has about the same amount of counters as Mega-Luc and he also has more potential sets as many other people have stated. Basically the counters I have heard are heatran and letting himself wear himself down, so first that means that genesect is actually such a good match up against so many people that hes coming in on sr enough to kill himself and second if he just has a spinner he has one counter. As far as Deoxy-s goes I havent really fought anyone that did much with him other then set up two layers which i dont think makes him ubers material. Whenever I have fought Deoxys I just kill him then put in my defogger after hes down unless people are talking about using another fast pokemon thats taunting, but that doesnt really make deoxys op in my opinion.
It's not really about being SR dead, more so about it being so much easier to clear the field for Genesect. That aside I agree with most of the first two paragraphs especially the one about extremespeed and the priority meta, but about AV I feel like not enough mons use it for it on their standard sets for it to have an serious negative impact on Genesect.
Wumgum, your example is kinda bad because Bronzong was actually good back in DP. It wasn't the best pokémon in the galaxy, but it did its job and could be used outside of "countering" Garchomp. You'd be more right if you mentioned Scarf Cresselia/Suicune (IIRC they were the only 101% surefire counters outside of Sand Veil hax) as they were as bad as your AV Azumarill is, but people (rarely) using them in DP and (absolutely) not using Azumarill now still isn't the same. People would deal with Garchomp using ~2 checks, maybe a revenge killer and a counter to their checks' counters (lol). This was still feasible because Garchomp had a 4x weakness which would be mitigated by Yache, meaning it wouldn't use a Life Orb, so you would have to deal with something like this:
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 224+ Def Vaporeon: 199-235 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And that would be preposterous enough. If Garchomp switched in without taking too much damage, it would set up Swords Dance and kill everything omg!!!
...And now we have MegaLucario, which does ~32% more damage with a Jolly nature than Yachechomp would do with Adamant nature. And it's even faster. And also more unpredictable, as it has a special set that can't be easily stopped outside of Zapdos. How are people trying to counter it? More or less like they tried with Garchomp: carrying 2 checks (one for each offensive spectrum) and priority whenever possible, and even then it's not THAT reliable because lol Steel/Fighting, where's your Bullet Punch now. People can't risk using a shitty set equivalent to DP Scarf Suicune because Lucario hits MUCH stronger and may simply be the other set, so you'd need to 1) absolutely always be at full health, 2) be positive you're not dealing with the wrong set, 3) be deadweight/death fodder after you kill Lucario and 4.1) eat shit if it's the NP set and you suffer flinch hax from Dark Pulse or 4.2) outright lose if there's SR on the field.
This is why no one bothers using terrible sets to stop Lucario. You'd be crazy enough to try that with DP Chomp; Lucario is on a whole 'nother level and you should actually stop playing Pokémon and seek professional help if you try to do it.
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 224+ Def Vaporeon: 199-235 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And that would be preposterous enough. If Garchomp switched in without taking too much damage, it would set up Swords Dance and kill everything omg!!!
...And now we have MegaLucario, which does ~32% more damage with a Jolly nature than Yachechomp would do with Adamant nature. And it's even faster. And also more unpredictable, as it has a special set that can't be easily stopped outside of Zapdos. How are people trying to counter it? More or less like they tried with Garchomp: carrying 2 checks (one for each offensive spectrum) and priority whenever possible, and even then it's not THAT reliable because lol Steel/Fighting, where's your Bullet Punch now. People can't risk using a shitty set equivalent to DP Scarf Suicune because Lucario hits MUCH stronger and may simply be the other set, so you'd need to 1) absolutely always be at full health, 2) be positive you're not dealing with the wrong set, 3) be deadweight/death fodder after you kill Lucario and 4.1) eat shit if it's the NP set and you suffer flinch hax from Dark Pulse or 4.2) outright lose if there's SR on the field.
This is why no one bothers using terrible sets to stop Lucario. You'd be crazy enough to try that with DP Chomp; Lucario is on a whole 'nother level and you should actually stop playing Pokémon and seek professional help if you try to do it.
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Using this reasoning, we can justify Mewtwo(and its megas), Xerneas, Blaziken, Darkrai, and Rayquaza not being ban worthy.
This.
Also it seems the part with the "Mega-Luke switches out, whatever can take it switches into superpower" misses -next time Azumarill comes in it dies off 2 hits or a +2 hit , or did I miss something and it somehow got reliable recovery?
So far only Zapdos seems to do the job. And should luke run Ice-Punch 248 hp/252+ def Zapdos get's 0HKOed after rocks by +2 jolly mega-lucario 94% of the time. Combinations of first Crunch followed by CC at +2 will also kill zapdos after rocks or little prior damage, while it fails to 0HKO luke with Heatwave as long as it doesnt have CC drops.
Overall I think it's too easy for this guy to grab kills/sweeps (as little to nothing counters both sets with rocks up), it can also come in multiple times (voltturn says hi) and just spam CC/AS midgame as it only takes ~3% rock damage which only adds up slowly, it influences teambuilding more than it should. I personally hope it goes away, should make the metagame much more interesting
difference between lucario and ubers is that lucario's defences suck ass
i mean are we gonna ban every mega just because people find the opportunity to set themselves up well? ._.
I'm excited for this thread, definitely. Because I just want someone to make me feel m-Lucario and Deoxys-S are overpowered.
Mega Lucario has 3 weaknesses that are extremely common. Fire. Fighting. Ground. These types of moves are seen on almost every single set. Using moves of these typings isn't in preparation of just Luc either, as Scizor, Genesect, Aegislash, etc, are what these moves also help against. When it comes down to his versatility between the Special and Physical spectrum, I believe this is near irrelevant. As almost every team deserves a nice Scarf user, which should be able to outspeed and kill Mega Lucario. Okay, now Priority? I haven't seen a Mega Luc kill a ScarfChomp with Bullet Punch, Vacuum Wave, or Espeed. And for people demanding a safe switch, maybe you should practice predicting and switching into checks before or as they switch into their Luc? That, or you could narrow the opposing team for a sweep with something that'll safely take him out.
Genesect. Oh boy, it's fast, lives most unboosted neutral hits, works as a lead, only has 1 weakness, and hits really hard. This guy is almost a better version of M-Luc for me. Less weaknesses, better coverage, and can make 3 roles without using the Mega slot? Yes. I think Genesect is too powerful for ou.
And as for Deo S, I haven't run into one that bothered my Mandibuzz or Bisharp.
Mega Lucario has 3 weaknesses that are extremely common. Fire. Fighting. Ground. These types of moves are seen on almost every single set. Using moves of these typings isn't in preparation of just Luc either, as Scizor, Genesect, Aegislash, etc, are what these moves also help against. When it comes down to his versatility between the Special and Physical spectrum, I believe this is near irrelevant. As almost every team deserves a nice Scarf user, which should be able to outspeed and kill Mega Lucario. Okay, now Priority? I haven't seen a Mega Luc kill a ScarfChomp with Bullet Punch, Vacuum Wave, or Espeed. And for people demanding a safe switch, maybe you should practice predicting and switching into checks before or as they switch into their Luc? That, or you could narrow the opposing team for a sweep with something that'll safely take him out.
Genesect. Oh boy, it's fast, lives most unboosted neutral hits, works as a lead, only has 1 weakness, and hits really hard. This guy is almost a better version of M-Luc for me. Less weaknesses, better coverage, and can make 3 roles without using the Mega slot? Yes. I think Genesect is too powerful for ou.
And as for Deo S, I haven't run into one that bothered my Mandibuzz or Bisharp.
All 3 deseve the boot to ubers , Deoxys S is ridiculous fast no safe switch if its running life orb 4 attacks , no to mention with knock off it can cripple a lot of switches in
Mega Lucario . and Genesect are extremely versatile capable of running all kinds of sets and even mixed with great efficiency , and the buff to techno blast means not even Hetran is safe ( or Hp Ground ) , they either guarantee a kill or huge momentum while you have to see what set opponent is running and revenge kill then with either scarf or priorities however in Genesect case scarfs that outspeed are hard to find also not to mention the Shift gear set witch guarantees +2speed and +2 attack if you get the attack boost
Both have acess to priority making the great revenge killers ( mega lucario has priorities on both spectrum's off attack
Mega Lucario . and Genesect are extremely versatile capable of running all kinds of sets and even mixed with great efficiency , and the buff to techno blast means not even Hetran is safe ( or Hp Ground ) , they either guarantee a kill or huge momentum while you have to see what set opponent is running and revenge kill then with either scarf or priorities however in Genesect case scarfs that outspeed are hard to find also not to mention the Shift gear set witch guarantees +2speed and +2 attack if you get the attack boost
Both have acess to priority making the great revenge killers ( mega lucario has priorities on both spectrum's off attack
It's not about defenses, it's about his damage output and speed. He can 2HKO practically all of OU, and has STAB adaptability priority on both physical and special sets while sitting on 112 speed.
I pee a little every time I see Mega Lucario and Genesect, as these two are some of the most unpredictable Pokemon I have ever versed.
Luke Skywalker can either use the Force on you or slash at you with his Light Saber and you would have a 50/50 chance of guessing which plan of attack he'll do before it's too late.
Meanwhile, Iron Man (Bug?...) can do the exact same in terms of offense; shoot lasers at you or beat the crap out of you with his hardened fists. Again, it's too difficult to predict what he'll do before he attacks.
In fact, if they're both running mixed sets, you're essentially getting fucked in the ass, and they don't even have the courtesy of giving a reach-around afterwards.
All in all, both Mega Lucario and Genesect need to go. They're both unhealthy for the OU metagame due to the fact nothing bar a select few Pokemon (and even they will have trouble)can switch into them safely. Heatran? lol nope. Genesect can U-turn out, and Mega Luke can CC or Aura Sphere it to death.
Luke Skywalker can either use the Force on you or slash at you with his Light Saber and you would have a 50/50 chance of guessing which plan of attack he'll do before it's too late.
Meanwhile, Iron Man (Bug?...) can do the exact same in terms of offense; shoot lasers at you or beat the crap out of you with his hardened fists. Again, it's too difficult to predict what he'll do before he attacks.
In fact, if they're both running mixed sets, you're essentially getting fucked in the ass, and they don't even have the courtesy of giving a reach-around afterwards.
All in all, both Mega Lucario and Genesect need to go. They're both unhealthy for the OU metagame due to the fact nothing bar a select few Pokemon (and even they will have trouble)can switch into them safely. Heatran? lol nope. Genesect can U-turn out, and Mega Luke can CC or Aura Sphere it to death.
Lucario is getting a suspect test- he isn't getting quickbanned. That's the purpose of this thread, to discuss the suspect test. Your points on Genesect are correct, and they're the reason Genesect is also being suspect tested. Deoxys-S is being tested not only because of the hazard lead, but his ability to go full offensive. The offensive set is very good and can be difficult to tell from the hazard set as hazard Deo runs some of the same moves offensive Deo does, so you can't tell until he's attacked not once but multiple times, often leaving one or more of your pokemon dead. And those people you talk about seem to be using hazard Deoxys wrong- the best users of Deoxys are hyper-offensive teams that would make it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to eliminate the hazards once they were up- using a combination of sheer offensive power, spinblockers, taunters, and Bisharp to discourage/benefit from defog and rapid spin.
I'm against banning more megaevolutions. It's a double moral to approach this kind of solutions, while legendary pokemon (which promote hacking in RL) like genesect are not in Uber where they belong (they require specific counters, in most cases, another legendary pokemon). To promote a creative environment in any kind of competitive play, I think legendary pokemon like Genesect, deoxys-x, celebi and others should be banned.
Darkrai and Blaziken aren't exactly bulky. In fact, they's frailer and with much worse defensive typings... In fact, if you take into account their weakness and resistances, I think Lucario is on par or even above all those mentioned Ubers.
Besides, all those Ubers can be dealt with by revenge killers and/or Ditto, so the point stands.
No slippery slope, please. There's a world of difference between MegaLucario and, say, MegaGardevoir. Lucario doesn't "find opportunities to set up", it easily sets up; same thing with Kangaskhan and her Power-Up Punch. We are not going to ban every Mega because they can set up, just like we never banned all legendaries just because they had good stats and +2 moves. You need more than that to get banned, and Lucario seems to have it all.
Hey you know what'd be great.
Let's take Terrakion, and give it a choice band that doesn't lock it into moves.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 169-199 (50.5 - 59.5%)
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 164-194 (49.1 - 58%)
Let's also give it a high special attack, Nasty Plot and a load of special coverage moves, allowing it to run a special set that's just as effective as its physical set, or even a mixed set.
Let's also give it not one, not two but THREE priority moves, one of which being Extreme Speed.
And for good measure, let's bump its base speed up by 4 and change it from Fighting/Rock to Fighting/Steel, removing most of its weaknesses.
Let's take Terrakion, and give it a choice band that doesn't lock it into moves.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 169-199 (50.5 - 59.5%)
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 164-194 (49.1 - 58%)
Let's also give it a high special attack, Nasty Plot and a load of special coverage moves, allowing it to run a special set that's just as effective as its physical set, or even a mixed set.
Let's also give it not one, not two but THREE priority moves, one of which being Extreme Speed.
And for good measure, let's bump its base speed up by 4 and change it from Fighting/Rock to Fighting/Steel, removing most of its weaknesses.
why not use something with a choice scarf? i mean i've not seen any lucario kill a garchomp (scarfed) with bullet punch, vacuum wave or extremespeed
Uhh... Legendary pokemon banworthy? Did I read that right? That isn't a particularly informed view in my opinion- legendary pokemon have just as variable usefulness as normal pokemon, ranging from absolute garbage to amazing. A blanket ban of legendary pokemon is not only irrelevant to this thread, but rather silly as the only arguably OP legendary in OU is Genesect. All the others are perfectly fine.
Faster Priority, Talonflame and Who? Scarfed mons are cool, but you'll still have to lose one mon to switch them in. And since M-Luke is usually used late game, they'll probably be weakened from damage or stealth rock so priority should hit them well.
Moderators have already made it clear that being revenge killable doesn't affect brokenness. Read the thread before posting.
Did you just say legendary as if it means something? Here's how it is, we only care how the pokemon perform in the OU metagame, labels like "legendary" and "mega" have no reason to be treated differently. Megas are an interesting case because they have to be in a turn to switch to their better stats (most notably speed for Luke), but even when you take that point of view you have to see Luke's brokenness, at least compared to Celebi
Unless you can explain how Celebi is in any way overpowered, it's not getting banned.
There are legitimate reasons as to why M-Lucario should be banned, and it's honestly the last mega that will likely be suspect tested.
That argument is applicable to pretty much every sweeper in the game, Ubers included. If the only way to deal with something is to revenge kill it with a scarfer then it's broken. Remember, Lucario isn't Xerneas, it can easily switch out and set up again later- it's defenses aren't great but they're enough to allow easy setup.
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