XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

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If anyone is wondering how a battle against Mega-Lucario can look like: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-82559089
I don't think i played that badly, even thogh my team may have been a bit unprepared against Mega-Lucario. My opinion about it should be quite obvious.
Concerning Genesect as you can see I'm using one and really like it, so I'd prefer being allowed to use it in the future. I also never had a real problem with an opposing one because of Heatran. I don't know if you should ban Deoxys-S 'cause I don't know why it was banned in the past generations, I'm only a "casual-competitive" player.

The main point is that M-Luke has to go. He didn't die a hero...

PS: There may be another way. If we would all run Mega-Lucario on our teams that could balance it ;)
 
I do give credit to UTurn. Personally, I find that UTurn is an overrated argument. I do very much agree that it is versatile, but I just don't feel it's broken. Most people on Smogon know me to be a Conservative player, and I only like to ban things that are legitimately broken.

Genesect may / may not be healthy to the metagame (personally, I think it is healthy...) but it for me it really doesn't matter since we're only supposed to ban broken things and Genesect really doesn't strike me as "broken" at all. I'm willing to listen to arguments though so please do refute me since I'll consider it when I go for req. I have changed my mind in the past.
If Genesect did not have Download, I wouldn't consider it broken either. But I do believe that Download pushes Genesect over the edge. Download effectively gives it the ability to have both a choice scarf and band / specs at the same time or two choice bands which stack. Because of Download, even Genesect's counters are going to be taking more than just residual damage from Genesect's U-turn, which separates Genesect from other Volt-turn users. Its raw power allows it to wear down its counters before they can wear Genesect down. It is true that Genesect is not a traditional sweeper, but it can rack up a lot of damage over the course of a battle while simultaneously forcing favorable match-ups which in my mind makes it unhealthy for the metagame. Since you are for banning both Deoxys forms, I will say that Genesect is similar in a sense to Deoxys-S; Deoxys-S easily racks up damage over the course of a battle by laying hazards and Genesect easily racks up damage over the course of a battle by simply spamming U-turn.
 
It somewhat intrigues me that you think Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D (who isn't even up for suspect or in S-rank in the OU viability topic) should be banned while Genesect shouldn't. While they do play different roles, Genesect just has so many things going for it that make me confused that you think it shouldn't be banned while something like Deoxys-D should. Deoxys-D has like... 2 things going for it. Great bulk and a great supportive move set. He has gems like Recover, Taunt, Mirror Coat, etc. and he's a reliable hazard setter. He's certainly a great defensive utility pokemon and all... but his typing sucks and he isn't much of an offensive threat.

Genesect on the other hand... has great typing, a great move pool, decent bulk, decent speed, STAB U-turn, and an ability that gives him a free choice specs/band without any downsides. He makes for a great scarfer, but he can also run other deadly sets thanks to his expansive movepool, allowing him to run things like Rock polish instead. What's that? It can't come and win games without support? Can an uber pokemon like Ho-Oh come in and wipe out an entire OU team by itself? Of course not! Being an uber pokemon doesn't mean that it can single-handedly wipe out a team by itself. No pokemon can do that unless you're playing against someone horrible.

Even with his awesome movepool (carrying stuff like flamethrower, ice beam, bug buzz, extremespeed, thunderbolt, rock polish, U-turn, etc), Genesect won't be able to handle things like Heatran unless it's carrying the odd HP ground or something. However, in the case of Heatran and anything slower than base 99 speed, Genesect could literally just U-turn on it's face. U-Turn on an offensive beast like Genesect really pushed him over the edge. Expecting a Genesect-counter to switch in? Just U-turn out and grab the momentum! Genesect is a great deal faster than Scizor and has a huge movepool with it. Anything that manages to threaten Genesect can just take a U-turn to the face and end up staring at their own counter.

Genesect may need some support to get rid of Heatran or some other pokemon, but that by itself does not justify Genesect's stay in OU. Good speed, decent bulk for a sweeper, good typing, great ability, great move pool, a momentum grabbing move in the form of STAB U-turn. This all translates to Genesect being one heck of a deadly offensive pokemon that is also versatile. What weaknesses does he exactly have? He can't deal with everything by himself? Lol ok.
 
I'd definitely agree that the ability to grab massive amounts of momentum for its team is why Genesect could be considered uber. U-Turn, paired with its colossal movepool, makes it a strategic nuke, and Download allows it to pick and choose its battles to get the most optimal boosts. Initially I was on the fence, but after some thinking... I wouldn't really mourn its loss.
 
It somewhat intrigues me that you think Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D (who isn't even up for suspect or in S-rank in the OU viability topic) should be banned while Genesect shouldn't. While they do play different roles, Genesect just has so many things going for it that make me confused that you think it shouldn't be banned while something like Deoxys-D should. Deoxys-D has like... 2 things going for it. Great bulk and a great supportive move set. He has gems like Recover, Taunt, Mirror Coat, etc. and he's a reliable hazard setter. He's certainly a great defensive utility pokemon and all... but his typing sucks and he isn't much of an offensive threat.

Genesect on the other hand... has great typing, a great move pool, decent bulk, decent speed, STAB U-turn, and an ability that gives him a free choice specs/band without any downsides. He makes for a great scarfer, but he can also run other deadly sets thanks to his expansive movepool, allowing him to run things like Rock polish instead. What's that? It can't come and win games without support? Can an uber pokemon like Ho-Oh come in and wipe out an entire OU team by itself? Of course not! Being an uber pokemon doesn't mean that it can single-handedly wipe out a team by itself. No pokemon can do that unless you're playing against someone horrible.

Even with his awesome movepool (carrying stuff like flamethrower, ice beam, bug buzz, extremespeed, thunderbolt, rock polish, U-turn, etc), Genesect won't be able to handle things like Heatran unless it's carrying the odd HP ground or something. However, in the case of Heatran and anything slower than base 99 speed, Genesect could literally just U-turn on it's face. U-Turn on an offensive beast like Genesect really pushed him over the edge. Expecting a Genesect-counter to switch in? Just U-turn out and grab the momentum! Genesect is a great deal faster than Scizor and has a huge movepool with it. Anything that manages to threaten Genesect can just take a U-turn to the face and end up staring at their own counter.

Genesect may need some support to get rid of Heatran or some other pokemon, but that by itself does not justify Genesect's stay in OU. Good speed, decent bulk for a sweeper, good typing, great ability, great move pool, a momentum grabbing move in the form of STAB U-turn. This all translates to Genesect being one heck of a deadly offensive pokemon that is also versatile. What weaknesses does he exactly have? He can't deal with everything by himself? Lol ok.
Shurtugal was discussing Genesect with respect to the Characteristics defined in the "portrait of an uber" forum here http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/portrait-of-an-uber.43566/ If you look at these straight on, Genesect is not an UBER, and never should have been. Genesect is not (usually) an all-out sweeper, nor is it a pure support pokemon, so banning it on the grounds of either Support or Offensive charactaristic would be faulty logic. What Genesect does is a combination of both, so I think it should be treated as such. It is both capable of revenging/outright KOing a large portion of the metagame and providing tons of offensive momentum for it's teammates. If you consider a hybrid Offensive/Support characteristic where you factor in the combination of the suspect's offensive and supportive potential, banning Genesect becomes much more reasonable.
 
Personally I don't think the lucarionite should be banned, I have not had that much trouble with it at all, unless it set up then I don't see this thing being that much of a monster. It has a chance of being of either being KO'd or at least taking a lot of damage on the turn it sets up. Maybe all the Mega Lucarios I fought were not good and I need to fight an actual Mega Lucario to understand why it should go to Ubers. As Genesect....I am kinda back and forth on this one, all you need is fire move and this thing is dead. At the same time it is quite a beast. Then their is Speed form deoxys, which I say no, don't see why it should go to ubers.
 
Personally I don't think the lucarionite should be banned, I have not had that much trouble with it at all, unless it set up then I don't see this thing being that much of a monster. It has a chance of being of either being KO'd or at least taking a lot of damage on the turn it sets up. Maybe all the Mega Lucarios I fought were not good and I need to fight an actual Mega Lucario to understand why it should go to Ubers. As Genesect....I am kinda back and forth on this one, all you need is fire move and this thing is dead. At the same time it is quite a beast. Then their is Speed form deoxys, which I say no, don't see why it should go to ubers.
yeah you probably have not fought a good Mega Lucario, I personally run the Nasty Plot set It can pretty much OHKO anyhting with a fighting/steel/dark(I run dark pluse on him) weakness or some really good SpD, and put at good dent in most other things. At +1 I can OHKO almost anything without fighting/steel/dark resist resit or some insane special defensive stats with priority if it is using vacuum wave. and don't even get me started at what it can do at +2. This coupled by the fact that he has 112 speed and has priority in the form of vacuum wave mean most things. If you want to see actually calculation their are plenty scattered throughout this thread
 
AJ.

Genesect is the quintessential tactical Pokemon that can suit multiple playing styles. It is not "broken", and it really don't "counter" many Pokemon in the strict sense of the word, but its movepool and enough unpredictability in its viable movesets, even if its item is known, to pose a credible threat to most Pokemon.

Genesect's efficacy highly dependent on the context -- the current team composition of its user and opponent's, Genesect's remaining health, and residual damage. A well played prediction can "halt" Genesect's momentum. Even allowing a Pokemon to die on a predicted U-Turn may be the best option. Alternatively, a risk-averse player may decide to reserve it to ensure its efficacy as a revenge killer in the middle-late game by keeping it safe from hazard damage or other forms or residual damage. but this forfeits any potential momentum it can generate or kills on high-value targets. There is no prescribed way to play against a Genesect or use a Genesect; that's why it is the epitome of a tactical Pokemon. Certainly, spamming U-Turn is not the prescribed way to play it. Genesect is not really simple to use and any argue that is generates "free momentum" in most cases in this meta is rather risible.

You should also know that Rocky Helmet gives you a passive way of playing mind games with Genesect's user and deters liberal U-Turn use. Certainly Genesect's user would want to protect it from residual damage. Also Stall has superior means and tactics to control hazards.

I could surmise why you do not like Genesect. Here is the an excerpt from the Wikipedia entry of Anatoly Karpov:

Genesect forces you to play a tactical game when it is out, regardless of how you construct a stall team before the match. It can easily generate that "beautiful tactical blow" by forcing a Pokemon exchange. Stall teams generally do not like tactical exchanges because stall thrives on the positional pressure generated by its cores to resist offensive assaults. A tactical offensive player could then exploit whatever hole that has been punched (such as loss of a resistance/immunity, hazard removal, cleric support, special sponge) by that beautiful tactical blow. After the blow has been dealt, the game will be simplified, although not necessarily in the favor of the Genesect user.

If Pokemon had a 200 turn mandatory draw rule. You would probably have a lot of satisfaction from the draws due to the turn limit.
I mean, I hate drawing and losing equally. Especially since if I get to 200 turns, I'm almost certain it's my win. But, genesect is annoying to me in the fact that it is like a common housefly in your bedroom while you try to sleep: You can't really catch it, it never seems to go away on its own (whereas pokemon like Talonflame tend to just die against heatran and recoil) and if you did catch it, you've probably wasted three hours of sleep doing so. To me, it has a calling card this gen as being annoyingly easy to use in any situation. Broken? No. But I don't think being 'broke' is the only reason to ban something.

The issue in gen 5 was that for every turn, it had the possibility to drag a pokemon down as it left the field again. This time around, he still does have that threat... we only added a few pokemon to OU this time around with any ability to take hits, and he realistically GAINED more power since the last time we saw him in OU (aka shift gear/espeed). He isn't a complete offensive monster anymore, but there is no denying his own dominance. Yes, he is largely focusing on OHKOing targets or turning out, and to OHKO he generally does need to hit SE boosted. None of this, however, is hard for him to accomplish, seeing as he always gets a bonus to the target's weakest side.

Now, I guess I should detail why exactly I see genesect as uncompetitive.

As a stall player, I rely on three things going into every match.
1. My team's ability to function in the metagame. It doesn't have to be perfect, but I must have answers to every common threat.
2. My ability to not only immediately identify the opponent's sets, but his endgame
3. Prediction. A great deal of people say stall gets repetitive late game. I try to avoid this and skip switch cycles to gain steps (aka long term I can actually have momentum as a staller)

Now, for whatever team I make, handling something like Rotom-w/Genesect/Scizor is NOT hard in concept. They rarely, if ever, bother team builders... And unfortunately some people just overlook them terribly bad. However, I have a dedicated counter for genesect. As stated, I can also almost immediately tell you band/scarf (obv shift gears, irrelevant) after the first hit. I can generally figure out an expert belt here, too. Red gene doesn't do enough damage on turn, it isn't scarfed...

However, I simply CANNOT predict a move made after I make a move. Well, I can. I bring in heatran to counter Genesect, I know he's bringing in a water/earth/fight user. Generally rotom-w, which really pisses me off because then it's back to chansey (or eventually just take the hit, he can do 40-48% with hydro pump...). The damage he causes is irrelevant to me. Obviously I have bulk to take him on heatran, he can't hit me for SE. But the ease of which my opponent gets to bypass such a crucial part of the competitive nature of the game is very unfair. A "get out of jail free" card, if you will.

His range that he threatens out is nearly unlimited. Ergo, what he can gain momentum against is the same. Lando-t only gains momentum on anything that is afraid of edgequake. Rotom only gets anything afraid of his stabs (and a burn). Genesect can get things fearing ice/electric/fire/bug/steel/occasionally grass. To give you an idea, in OU, here is what fears noting commonly found on genesect:

Charizard X/Y both eat more than 50% damage but can OHKO back if in.
Conkeldurr w/AV: Banded iron head only does 50% to AV conk (However, Noge did show me psychic Gene would do 90%)
Infernape *only* takes 62% min from CB Iron head, does OHKO w/flare blitz... Might kill itself doing so.
Heatran, obviously.

And this was really only looking Iron head + 3 Special attacks (elec/fire/ice). Overpredict a uturn and lose a pokemon. He uturns and you switch, he gets initiative. The only way it can be REMOTELY negative is if he predicts you to stay in when you switch out and he's choice locked/doesn't outspeed the in. This advantage, where two of three options turn advantageous immediately and one is not necessarily disadvantageous (situational what it actually is) is why he is so uncompetitive. My opponent does not need to take and necessary precautions against almost ALL of OU with a fantastic defensive typing that only fears one type.

I personally refer to believe there is anything strategic/tactical about genesect.
 
Just my personal opinion, but why would Deoxys-S get banned? Sure, it sets up stealth rocks almost assuredly, but it is just begging for setup. If you see a Deoxys-S on the other team, you KNOW they're sending it out first, and with little defenses and underwhelming special attack and attack stats, it's perfect setup. Whenever the other team has Deoxys-S, I send out Dragonite first, get two DD's, then proceed to sweep. Deoxys-S just isn't good enough to be in Ubers either. It's basically giving the other team a free KO (even with Focus Sash)...I don't even see why it's a problem.
 
Just my personal opinion, but why would Deoxys-S get banned? Sure, it sets up stealth rocks almost assuredly, but it is just begging for setup. If you see a Deoxys-S on the other team, you KNOW they're sending it out first, and with little defenses and underwhelming special attack and attack stats, it's perfect setup. Whenever the other team has Deoxys-S, I send out Dragonite first, get two DD's, then proceed to sweep. Deoxys-S just isn't good enough to be in Ubers either. It's basically giving the other team a free KO (even with Focus Sash)...I don't even see why it's a problem.
Surprise it was a LO Deoxys and it just now smacked your D-night with Ice Beam. There is more to Deo-S then the Hazard Set. Also performance in Ubers has nothing to do with getting banned. If it is broken in OU it gets banned, even if it sucks in Ubers.
 
Just my personal opinion, but why would Deoxys-S get banned? Sure, it sets up stealth rocks almost assuredly, but it is just begging for setup. If you see a Deoxys-S on the other team, you KNOW they're sending it out first, and with little defenses and underwhelming special attack and attack stats, it's perfect setup. Whenever the other team has Deoxys-S, I send out Dragonite first, get two DD's, then proceed to sweep. Deoxys-S just isn't good enough to be in Ubers either. It's basically giving the other team a free KO (even with Focus Sash)...I don't even see why it's a problem.
How do you know it's full hazards and not attacks + rocks? Not only can it carry Ice Beam, but an uninvested Ice Beam without item support scores a solid 2HKO on Dragonite, anything x4 weak without Multiscale will immediately regret switching in.

Hell, you can't even do better than 2HKO deo-s with Dragonite, it can be sashed and still kill you if you go for Outrage. Or hell, it doesn't even have to kill you, it can punch a hole in you and drop rocks. You won't be getting "2 dances" by any stretch of the imagination since if you try to do that, you can't stop it from rocking AND murdering you.
 
Honestly I don't have a lot of experience on this metagame, but after reading a lot of the discussion in this post I decided to come in and give my 2 cents.

I will only talk about M-Lucario, since it seems to be the biggest threat right now. The biggest problem with this guy (and the fact that most people complain about) is the fact that it can run either SD or NP and be an effective sweeper, having completely different counters. This means that if you predict its set wrong you're probably ****ed. So I would like to remind other people of the fact that, 2 generations ago (I know its a long time ago and under a different metagame, but bear with me), our friend Salamence was banned for this very reason. Having two incredibly powerful sets (Mixed and DD in its case) that forced you to either predict really well every time, or have 2 counters to it, which severely limited team building. That may be enough reason to ban M-Luke, but I dunno. I'm just leaving this out there, as food for thought.
 

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WAGESLAVE
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Just to add some more perspective on Genesect, I feel what makes it so dangerous isn't just its unpredictability, but it's also its ability to fake you out. It is rather easy to fake a Scarf set with EB, especially since BO is becoming more common now, and as many said, Shiny is used to run a scarf set for surprise factor.

Genesect's speed tier is easily a defining factor in why it isn't banned yet, imo. 99 is literally GF's way of saying fuck you, just to balance this thing out a bit. Really, even then we still have trouble with it. If it gets banned, it will be a combination of versatility and momentum grabbing, a massive movepool, and stellar offences.
 
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I mean, I hate drawing and losing equally. Especially since if I get to 200 turns, I'm almost certain it's my win. But, genesect is annoying to me in the fact that it is like a common housefly in your bedroom while you try to sleep: You can't really catch it, it never seems to go away on its own (whereas pokemon like Talonflame tend to just die against heatran and recoil) and if you did catch it, you've probably wasted three hours of sleep doing so. To me, it has a calling card this gen as being annoyingly easy to use in any situation. Broken? No. But I don't think being 'broke' is the only reason to ban something.
Well, I suppose people have their own perceptions of how "easy" it is to use certain Pokemon. I also presume you really do not mind losing if you can extend a match for > 200 turns against a stall team (as opposed to being outplayed or outpredicted by someone using an HO team). There are certainly subjective factors about the psychological satisfaction of a win; a "win" may not always be a "win". For example, I personally do not mind losing a match on a speed tie against two opposing E-Belt Genesect or someone using an uncommon and unorthodox move to catch me by surprise. Actually, I am happier on those loss than if I win; winning is merely an expedient to prevent the shame of being outplayed through prediction, easily swept, or shut down by stalling. I really do not care about winning any particular match. But I do not like losing or even winning due to hax (something like a critical hit during the final stages of a game or two consecutative Hydro Pump miss, not something like Genesect's Iron Head flinching a Chansey).

His range that he threatens out is nearly unlimited. Ergo, what he can gain momentum against is the same. Lando-t only gains momentum on anything that is afraid of edgequake. Rotom only gets anything afraid of his stabs (and a burn). Genesect can get things fearing ice/electric/fire/bug/steel/occasionally grass. To give you an idea, in OU, here is what fears nothing commonly found on genesect:

Charizard X/Y both eat more than 50% damage but can OHKO back if in.
Conkeldurr w/AV: Banded iron head only does 50% to AV conk (However, Noge did show me psychic Gene would do 90%)
Infernape *only* takes 62% min from CB Iron head, does OHKO w/flare blitz... Might kill itself doing so.
Heatran, obviously.
That is precisely why it is the quintessential "sharp" "tactical" Pokemon. It is can more of a "Knight" since it can easily create "forks" with its movepool or it can compromise its forking ability by behaving like a "Bishop", by giving up Iron Head to deal with some physical threats, to skewer things as Thunderbolt hits a Rotom-W switch-in for respectable damage can simultaneously threaten Slowbro and Skarmory). One of its tactical assets is its threat of momentum, not the momentum it actually generates. Genesect can tactically forfeit momentum by killing something that doesn't resist it at 20%. The mechanics of U-Turn isn't broken as it is balanced by requiring its user to send in a Pokemon first after it scores a kill from U-Turn. The loss of momentum from the kill can be analogous to moving a Knight to the edge of the board or capturing a piece to have doubled pawns. It takes skill to assess whether the positional disadvantage is worth the tactical advantage of a kill (but even that is difficult to apply calculation and contributes to the tactical nature of Genesect).

It can be "positionally" checked through entry hazards, a Rocky Helmet or Iron Barb/Rough Skin Pokemon, and spamming attacks frequently, although these are merely deterrents. It "limits" team building by giving you a strong incentive to run attacking or phasing moves so you do not give it a free switch, but that could be said for almost any set-up threat such as Sub or boosting sweepers. There is counterplay even against its sharp tactical gambits, mainly Protect against the Choice sets being the most debilitating move against those Genesect.

Because of the viability of counterplay against Genesect, it is not "broken" or "uncompetitive". One cannot, incorrectly, say that Genesect "is" broken (and "broken" here is synonymous with constant "low-risk momentum" as it does not generate under common battle conditions against a competent player in the metagame).

Also a tactical playing style focuses on making "favorable" exchanges and simplification without any defined end game or win condition, but stall can deal with tactical styles too.

As a student of some venerated Scottish philosopher:

Genesect may violate one's conception of what a metagame "ought" to be, and that may be sufficient reason to ban it if consensus is viable. And there is nothing unambiguous in the current usage stats or that can be derived from personal experiences playing with or against Genesect that can lead one to objectively discover whether Genesect ought to be in the meta or banished. All one has are personal subjective sentiments and preferences about what the metagame ought to be. Genesect does arouse passions about it, and these passions are merely informed by what "is", but the strength of the passions do not inform whether Genesect ought to be banned.

I prefer it not to be banned. I would at least like to see it perform in a Mega Luc less meta. But that is just personal preference.

But at least we should get what "is" is correctly.
 
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aVocado

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Just my personal opinion, but why would Deoxys-S get banned? Sure, it sets up stealth rocks almost assuredly, but it is just begging for setup. If you see a Deoxys-S on the other team, you KNOW they're sending it out first, and with little defenses and underwhelming special attack and attack stats, it's perfect setup. Whenever the other team has Deoxys-S, I send out Dragonite first, get two DD's, then proceed to sweep. Deoxys-S just isn't good enough to be in Ubers either. It's basically giving the other team a free KO (even with Focus Sash)...I don't even see why it's a problem.
And then, bam, Deo-S takes out two of your teammates because you thought it would be the hazards lead while in fact, it's an LO set with monstrous coverage and just about enough power to KO most of the relevant offensive threats. It simply murders offensive teams, and contrary to popular belief, it can handle itself vs. slower, bulkier teams. Yes, it can't get past some certain walls, but it's not meant to be. It's a revenge-killer/cleaner, not a wallbreaker. Yes, it's susceptible to priority, but so are lots of other relevant Pokemon.

Deo-S has enough versatility, offenses and speed to be too good for OU, and I think it is.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
Uh yeah, I thought it was clear at this point, but it seems many people still haven't realized that how a Pokémon performs in Uber is irrelevant in regards to its tiering.

Even ignoring the fact that Deo-S is an EXCELLENT lead in the Ubers tier, its usage in Ubers - which is a tier but also a banlist - has no relevance on whether it should be allowed in lower tiers or not. If we tiered Pokémon basing our choice off their viability/usage in upper tiers, then we should have unbanned stuff like Zekrom, Shaymin-S etc. a long time ago. Assuming that Deo-S gets banned this round, it doesn't really matter whether it will be used in Ubers or not.

I hope I won't have to clear this up again.
 
I would also like to supplement some side notes about genesect.

In the case when scarf Genesect is on the field, it got two choices, and perhaps 3 occasionally. Note that I am not trying to challenge that Genesect is not giving you an advantage, which will be discussed after I have done the scenario analysis.

1. U-turn

This is generally the safe choice, unless you are going against some rock helmet Ferrothorn you are not taking that much risk.

However, even it seems safe, it can occasionally go wrong. For example, if you U-turn against something like Skarmory or Hippowtop which decides to take some risk, this could very well mean a layer of SR, or some phasing move that shuffles your team and stirs up extra EH damage. And what ever counter you brings in, you probably don't like taking a scald on your face.

In fact, unless what you bring in is a "hard counter", which is rare for all poke, you probably don't like giving up that turn away even with the U-turn damage down. Because, let's keep in mind, U-turn is still U-turn, it is a 70BP move which is also bug type, arguably a bad offensive typing. It is still inferior in trading blows. Plus you still don't know what move your opponent is using before you finish the switch.

Of course, if you are weak to to bug type, you are simply at a disadvantageous matchup, which applies to every single pokemon. Like Talonflame against Rotom-W, Pinsir against Skarmory, etc. Bug weakness pokemon are not supposed to go head to head with its weakness what so over.

(1.5) Iron Head/Flash Cannon/Bug Bizz/X-scissor

This is in fact a special case because all these moves are used less, and with good reasons, as all these are bad moves to be locked on unless you are Jirachi. However this is still the safest choice you have, as you get STAB on these moves so at least your fire power is ensured as long as you are not resisted(but is unfortunately an often case).

2. Use its coverage move

This is the most controversial part about Genesect, many argues that its coverage move covers a wide range of the meta, which is true, however another truth is that it does not get STAB on all these move unless it has download boosting the right side, making them generally inferior to other powerful special attacker in terms of sheer power. Even with the +1 boost from download, most special wall probably won't care about it, as most special walls are expected to tank STAB hits coming off from more powerful special attackers with boosting item what so ever.

Also, using coverage moves is also more risky than one may consider. Because you are not going to know what action your enemy takes. It is not like some Landorus-T EQ, CS Keldeo Hydro Pump, or perhaps Terraskion Close Combat. If you guess wrong, you are at a disadvantage immediately, keep in mind that you are choice locked.

+1 252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 97-115 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 92-108 (32.1 - 37.7%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 93-110 (23 - 27.2%) -- 55.8% chance to 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 139-164 (41.8 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 123-145 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Now, to avoid being misleading, this calculations show the case that Genesect is guessing WRONG and has not pick the most optimal move, I also avoid the worst possible scenario like electric against earth(which is equally rare as being absolutely correct) and take some middle ground. This should be enough to show that, as long as Genesect is not doing most correct thing(which should not be possible as long as there are no transcendental interventions lolz), it is at a bad position. Also, keep in mind that all these calculations assumed Genesect gets the boost on the special side, not always the case either. The pokemon listed are selected selected from the OU tier which do not get hit by SE with more than one of its common coverage move, but I have not include any major special walls because it happened that I miss them all when I took a glance on the usage list.

Overall, it is still an advantage for Genesect, because you generally generate more momentum than you lose, and choice locked on wrong moves, despite more likely to happen than not, still does not make up for the possible reward of scoring KOs. However, one will never pick up a pokemon to begin with if it does not bring you advantages, right? Plus, you still have to switch in the thing before you can put yourself onto the table, which is not particularly easy as discussed above.

It is a risky pokemon to use, and hence very rewarding, but one can't just assume that it is always winning the gambit.


This should finish about the scarf set, I am not particularly experienced about the band set though, but I am not seeing too much relevant arguement either. For the expert belt set, well, it is shut down by most pokemon above 100 speed, and can be detect with moderate accuracy through team comp and play style as stated. So I will just pause by now.

Btw, I am a little curious if people consider out-prediction as a kind of luckiness or not. There's nothing to be accused for though, just some sharing of the views and preferences.
 
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Genesect is bar far more deserving of a ban than Deo-S and Deo-D. If Lucario could only sweep on one side of the spectrum (physical or special) I feel that it would be a lot eaiser to counter but by the time you find out what set the opposing Lucario is running, it's too late. I feel all 4 need to be banned regardless but I could live with Deo-S and Deo-D staying in OU. Genesect and Mega Luke have to go.
 
Genesect's physical attack is equal to his special attack, sitting at base 120 which is (coincidentally) equal to Arceus. So if it gets an attack boost (not uncommon) from download and a shift gear boost, it has literally the same attack stat as a +2 arceus, outspeeds every relevant scarfer (remember shift gear is +2 speed) and has priority alongside excellent neutral coverage with iron head, blaze kick and E-speed (resisted only by Heatran, Jellicent and Chandelure, I believe. I may be missing some though). don't dismiss Shift Gear.

1. You are forgetting one very, very important thing. Arceus gets STAB on his e-speed. The difference between STABed priority and unSTABed is huge.

2. Yes, a pokemon with +2 speed will outspeed most scarfers. Lets look at the other side though, bulky pokemon that can take a hit or two and ohko in return. One example off the top of my head is CB entei.

252 Atk Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Entei: 95-112 (21.8 - 25.8%) -- 1.9% chance to 4HKO

+1 252 Atk Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Entei: 141-166 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Entei: 188-222 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 1144-1348 (330.6 - 389.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and no, the band is not even remotely necessary to ensure the ko, it just happens to be a common entei set.

Looks like a pretty solid check if you ask me. It can easily counter at +0 or +1, and while it cannot directly counter a +2, it can revenge easily enough, even with SR up (as a quick note, very few pokemon can directly counter another pokemon at +2 an offensive stat in OU, think of the number of pokemon that can safely swap into a +2 megachomp or terrakion for example). Entei has the additional bonus of being able to swap in relatively safely into most genesect sets, including HP ground ones, but that's not the point of this post.

Here's another bulky pokemon that can wreck the standard SG set.

+1 252 Atk Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 136-160 (35.6 - 41.8%) -- 88.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 204-240 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 90-107 (23.5 - 28%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 135-160 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- 87.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 226-267 (65.3 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Once again, it checks at +2 and outright counters at +1 and lower, it didn't even need to resist.

So basically, we got bulky fire types, lando-t, intimidate Gyarados, and intimidate Salamence (I don't feel like posting the calcs tbh). Given that three of these are threatened by standard genesect, I am starting to wonder if maybe genesect is in fact broken (I did mention I was on the fence about this one).
 

BurningMan

fueled by beer
I would also like to supplement some side notes about genesect.

In the case when scarf Genesect is on the field, it got two choices, and perhaps 3 occasionally. Note that I am not trying to challenge that Genesect is not giving you an advantage, which will be discussed after I have done the scenario analysis.
Or it is not Scarf Genesect, but EBelt or CB or Rock Polish or Shift Gear or one of the other 6 sets Genesect can run effectively that all have overlapping moves so you might not even know what set you are playing against until you have already lost two pokemon if you made a wrong prediction. Genesect isn't only strong because of its incredible Stats and Movepool, it can also utilize them in so many ways that you are not only forced to predict what move out of 4 or 5 it uses but which one out of 10 or even more and even if you predicted the right move you might still lose a pokemon because you predicted the wrong item the turn after.

The dangerousness (is that even a word lol) of Genesect isn't coming from its individual sets and not even the sum of its sets. The danger is that every Gene set benefits from the existence of the other sets especially the lesser used ones this isn't so apparent on the ladder where 80% of the time you will be facing Scarf, but if you watch some high level matches you can see that predicting a wrong Genesect set can easily end the game.
 
Or it is not Scarf Genesect, but EBelt or CB or Rock Polish or Shift Gear or one of the other 6 sets Genesect can run effectively that all have overlapping moves so you might not even know what set you are playing against until you have already lost two pokemon if you made a wrong prediction. Genesect isn't only strong because of its incredible Stats and Movepool, it can also utilize them in so many ways that you are not only forced to predict what move out of 4 or 5 it uses but which one out of 10 or even more and even if you predicted the right move you might still lose a pokemon because you predicted the wrong item the turn after.

The dangerousness (is that even a word lol) of Genesect isn't coming from its individual sets and not even the sum of its sets. The danger is that every Gene set benefits from the existence of the other sets especially the lesser used ones this isn't so apparent on the ladder where 80% of the time you will be facing Scarf, but if you watch some high level matches you can see that predicting a wrong Genesect set can easily end the game.
Most of its sets (bar shift gear) play very similarly though, and have the same general hard counters. Most physical scarfs cary ice beam to deal with physical walls such as landorus-t, and most special scarfs scout with u-turn similarly to the physical scarf (I would say the special scarf is walled by more pokes in general). Even shift gear gensect is walled by most of the same pokemon that wall the other sets. I don't see how e-belt can be used as an argument for banning it, as all it has is the surprise factor, and after that its not as good as the other sets.
 
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Or it is not Scarf Genesect, but EBelt or CB or Rock Polish or Shift Gear or one of the other 6 sets Genesect can run effectively that all have overlapping moves so you might not even know what set you are playing against until you have already lost two pokemon if you made a wrong prediction. Genesect isn't only strong because of its incredible Stats and Movepool, it can also utilize them in so many ways that you are not only forced to predict what move out of 4 or 5 it uses but which one out of 10 or even more and even if you predicted the right move you might still lose a pokemon because you predicted the wrong item the turn after.

The dangerousness (is that even a word lol) of Genesect isn't coming from its individual sets and not even the sum of its sets. The danger is that every Gene set benefits from the existence of the other sets especially the lesser used ones this isn't so apparent on the ladder where 80% of the time you will be facing Scarf, but if you watch some high level matches you can see that predicting a wrong Genesect set can easily end the game.
Band set and belt set is sufficiently predictable by analyzing team comp, or else you are simply building the team in a sub par way.

In fact, the better a team is, the more predictable it is. This is because the game is not perfectly balanced and not everything is viable. Most sets of Genesect outside the scarf one tend to be slightly below the top level of play, and is not really used quite the same way as the scarf set. The slight difference is detectable.

MLuke is an exceptional case though, both sets wrecks 90% of the meta but funtions in literally the same way, I mean sweeping here.

Anyway, oncerning "dangerousness", perhaps just danger is fine?
 
Personally i think deo-s isnt gonna go uber sure its fast but it has counters especially with defog buff making mandi and sableye some of the best pokemon to murder it
 
Mega Lucario is easy to pin down as being banworthy because although it has multiple sets, it really does one thing, which is sweep. All you have to do is look at its merits as a sweeper and you've got the whole picture.

What I fear is that Genesect, despite being equally banworthy, is going to go overlooked just because its merits are more subtle than Luke's. It's a wild card, it's a scout, it's a momentum grabber, it's a setup sweeper, it's a late game cleaner. Even if you only take into account its scarf set, it's a lot like Mega Gengar. In fact this reminds me a lot of how Mega Kang's ban was almost unanimous, but Mega Gengar's had some... poorly informed people who couldn't see why one would ban something that didn't just OHKO the whole tier with raw power. It's not going to sweep an entire team by itself, but it does threaten to outspeed and kill a good portion of the metagame. Instead of disallowing switches altogether, it just punishes them with the threat of a massively advantageous U-turn. Obviously it's not as good as Mega Gengar at forcing bad matchups for your opponent, but because of Download, its movepool, and its mixed attacking stats, it's actually sort of on the same level in terms of raw power. Now, throw in its other, reasonably viable sets to make prediction even harder, and you have a banworthy Pokemon on your hands.

As an aside, most so-called "prediction wars" are just glorified rolls of the dice, and boasting about winning a prediction war is as silly as boasting about dodging a Focus Blast. Skill only factors into it after you've been in the exact same situation a number of times to start identifying a pattern, ie stall teams.
I would also like to supplement some side notes about genesect.

In the case when scarf Genesect is on the field, it got two choices, and perhaps 3 occasionally. Note that I am not trying to challenge that Genesect is not giving you an advantage, which will be discussed after I have done the scenario analysis.

1. U-turn

This is generally the safe choice, unless you are going against some rock helmet Ferrothorn you are not taking that much risk.

However, even it seems safe, it can occasionally go wrong. For example, if you U-turn against something like Skarmory or Hippowtop which decides to take some risk, this could very well mean a layer of SR, or some phasing move that shuffles your team and stirs up extra EH damage. And what ever counter you brings in, you probably don't like taking a scald on your face.

In fact, unless what you bring in is a "hard counter", which is rare for all poke, you probably don't like giving up that turn away even with the U-turn damage down. Because, let's keep in mind, U-turn is still U-turn, it is a 70BP move which is also bug type, arguably a bad offensive typing. It is still inferior in trading blows. Plus you still don't know what move your opponent is using before you finish the switch.

Of course, if you are weak to to bug type, you are simply at a disadvantageous matchup, which applies to every single pokemon. Like Talonflame against Rotom-W, Pinsir against Skarmory, etc. Bug weakness pokemon are not supposed to go head to head with its weakness what so over.

(1.5) Iron Head/Flash Cannon/Bug Bizz/X-scissor

This is in fact a special case because all these moves are used less, and with good reasons, as all these are bad moves to be locked on unless you are Jirachi. However this is still the safest choice you have, as you get STAB on these moves so at least your fire power is ensured as long as you are not resisted(but is unfortunately an often case).

2. Use its coverage move

This is the most controversial part about Genesect, many argues that its coverage move covers a wide range of the meta, which is true, however another truth is that it does not get STAB on all these move unless it has download boosting the right side, making them generally inferior to other powerful special attacker in terms of sheer power. Even with the +1 boost from download, most special wall probably won't care about it, as most special walls are expected to tank STAB hits coming off from more powerful special attackers with boosting item what so ever.

Also, using coverage moves is also more risky than one may consider. Because you are not going to know what action your enemy takes. It is not like some Landorus-T EQ, CS Keldeo Hydro Pump, or perhaps Terraskion Close Combat. If you guess wrong, you are at a disadvantage immediately, keep in mind that you are choice locked.

+1 252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 97-115 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 92-108 (32.1 - 37.7%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 93-110 (23 - 27.2%) -- 55.8% chance to 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 139-164 (41.8 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 123-145 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Now, to avoid being misleading, this calculations show the case that Genesect is guessing WRONG and has not pick the most optimal move, I also avoid the worst possible scenario like electric against earth(which is equally rare as being absolutely correct) and take some middle ground. This should be enough to show that, as long as Genesect is not doing most correct thing(which should not be possible as long as there are no transcendental interventions lolz), it is at a bad position. Also, keep in mind that all these calculations assumed Genesect gets the boost on the special side, not always the case either. The pokemon listed are selected selected from the OU tier which do not get hit by SE with more than one of its common coverage move, but I have not include any major special walls because it happened that I miss them all when I took a glance on the usage list.

Overall, it is still an advantage for Genesect, because you generally generate more momentum than you lose, and choice locked on wrong moves, despite more likely to happen than not, still does not make up for the possible reward of scoring KOs. However, one will never pick up a pokemon to begin with if it does not bring you advantages, right? Plus, you still have to switch in the thing before you can put yourself onto the table, which is not particularly easy as discussed above.

It is a risky pokemon to use, and hence very rewarding, but one can't just assume that it is always winning the gambit.


This should finish about the scarf set, I am not particularly experienced about the band set though, but I am not seeing too much relevant arguement either. For the expert belt set, well, it is shut down by most pokemon above 100 speed, and can be detect with moderate accuracy through team comp and play style as stated. So I will just pause by now.

Btw, I am a little curious if people consider out-prediction as a kind of luckiness or not. There's nothing to be accused for though, just some sharing of the views and preferences.
I agree with this analysis. Yes, Genesect will not always win. Yes, almost all Pokemon provide some kind of advantage. I'd just like to point out that neither of these statements is really an argument against banning Genesect.
 
Mega Lucario is easy to pin down as being banworthy because although it has multiple sets, it really does one thing, which is sweep. All you have to do is look at its merits as a sweeper and you've got the whole picture.

What I fear is that Genesect, despite being equally banworthy, is going to go overlooked just because its merits are more subtle than Luke's. It's a wild card, it's a scout, it's a momentum grabber, it's a setup sweeper, it's a late game cleaner. Even if you only take into account its scarf set, it's a lot like Mega Gengar. In fact this reminds me a lot of how Mega Kang's ban was almost unanimous, but Mega Gengar's had some... poorly informed people who couldn't see why one would ban something that didn't just OHKO the whole tier with raw power. It's not going to sweep an entire team by itself, but it does threaten to outspeed and kill a good portion of the metagame. Instead of disallowing switches altogether, it just punishes them with the threat of a massively advantageous U-turn. Obviously it's not as good as Mega Gengar at forcing bad matchups for your opponent, but because of Download, its movepool, and its mixed attacking stats, it's actually sort of on the same level in terms of raw power. Now, throw in its other, reasonably viable sets to make prediction even harder, and you have a banworthy Pokemon on your hands.

As an aside, most so-called "prediction wars" are just glorified rolls of the dice, and boasting about winning a prediction war is as silly as boasting about dodging a Focus Blast. Skill only factors into it after you've been in the exact same situation a number of times to start identifying a pattern, ie stall teams.

I agree with this analysis. Yes, Genesect will not always win. Yes, almost all Pokemon provide some kind of advantage. I'd just like to point out that neither of these statements is really an argument against banning Genesect.
Well, my argument tend to be counter arguments against the pro-ban side, which I think is overstating the power of Genesect. If you actually read through those pro-ban posts so many people actually consider Genesect as some costless momentum generator which also OHKO the entire meta, I do the analysis for the purpose to disprove this idea.

In fact, so many of the flaws on Genesect are simply omited, awful offensive typing, lack of high BP moves, average defensive stat without investment, below the average speed and hence scarf reliant. While the impact of a resoundingly vast movepool is heavily overstated when it does not actually got a STAB, and download just bearly compensates it.

Btw, MGengar was banned mainly for PerishTag and T-Bond, and to a less extend hyper revenge killing, these things are obviously broken but unnoticed because few people actually knows gengar got perish song and destiny bond, in the later case, Dbond also happen to be a difficult strategy to pull off and required some experiences.
 
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