Official XY Ubers Shadow Tag Suspect Voting

[Fireburn]

Voting on Shadow Tag.

List of qualified voters (193 in all):

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Fixed
DOGE EBINEST
HeIIraiser
Haunted.Shadow
Mr.378
Darnell
haxiom
ZoroarkForever
Worthlessnoob
NightJackal
Amy Sorel
franklinfrank
steve_man
Lady Gaga
asterat
based n bad
pokemaster12321
malefic
BKC
NotAGymLdr
orch
Instant Apple Pie
Sweep
LzrGunPewPew
Killabunny
Mega-Swampert
Scene
Ecuacion
StarmeiTheGod
Davon
Thetwinmasters
Dilwar
pikachu<3
srk1214
Geopolitics
ohgeedubs
The Bravest Bird
offler
darkdevil
Flexxen
PROBLEMS
alwayswimmin
Melee Mewtwo
Henry
AM
Safes
SparksBlade
AwesomeGunGuy
Kebabe
Magcargo
Sae Sae
warzoid
-Clone-
DM35
CP3MVP
tennisace
statue_left
Majickary
MoxieInfinite
aim
BelmontGabriel
Cinco Diablo
Luxuryball13
Jolton
Lord Alphose
MeteorMiss
Haruno
Thugly Duckling
casklord
C AllStar
Cirdec
Darkerones
justinjiaxinghu
M'joe'ra
Serpi386
Focus
Faint
DoubleOD
SlottedPig
sparktrain
shrang
Imma Fly
skillzfodayz
iliketrains11
James Jimmy
Skyfellar
FaithfulDeath
Jezebelda
X TREE
Minority Suspect
Lustiger Lega
DetroitLolcat
Asmodean
Plasmanta
z0mOG
UrfTheManatee
Windsong
dabroyo
arnyyr
TalkTakesTime
Aminiscent
Yagura
FlyingIsOP
Pottie Scippen.
Steeljackal<3
Professional2341
DracoMaster Pain
Enki
FearTheCow
Krakenation
SockeFTW
It's just Lacus
Blueblood
Montsegur
Star Thunderbolt
ImSNT
Obliviate
TheHaxGodItself
Eaarth'
Staraptor
ntiller
Knuckstrike
Lind_U.
rian888
Fortune
Goomynator
Unfaithful
Skraper123
RedsCharizard
alejandrosh
jas61292
zdrup15
PuddlesA1
Legitimate Username
Tokyo Tom
Inflikted
ApplepieFTW
johnvelong
ZoroDark
The DragonKnight
Hack
LeapsFrog
hellotheya
Zeraken
Steve Angello
Starmaster
Mysteria
PichuPlayer
Sunny.
PISTOLERO
V0x
capefeather
Mizuhime
icutu482
Phozon
LLW Gao Changgong
Conflict
K Legacy
jrp
dice
haxED
Frost22
Test2017
Water Drone
WreckDra
Its Kyoorem
daboss0123
Brisingr_BB
dEnIsSsS
Yuyuko for UU
Fireburn
Nimbus125
Zaionar
GiraGoomy
Cranham
Vossy
Puralux
bibooo magic
Melodic Dystopia
Yo Athe1st
DropTheBass
finalninja243
OverlordMatt5379
schnuffitrunks
trillyntruly
The Quasar
FriedChikan
Mazar
qsns
fireblaster1357
ShunGTX!!
boltsandbombers
accidental_racist

If you are qualified but your name is not on the list, or if you are on the list but are unable to post, send me a private message.

When voting use the following format:

Shadow Tag: Ban
Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban
Shadow Tag: Abstain

<paragraph of reasoning goes here>

In addition to your vote, you must also post at least one(1) paragraph of reasoning explaining your choice. This is to determine whether or not you have been following the discussion, are knowledgable about the metagame, and have given good thought to this choice. Votes supported with obviously poor or ill-formed reasoning will be rejected. Voters who do not post paragraphs will have their votes rejected as well.

The paragraphs will be reviewed by the Ubers moderators. There is no minimum length for the paragraph. You should be the judge of what is enough. If you don't think its good enough, we won't either.

In order for Shadow Tag to get banned, it will have to achieve a minimum 50%+1 pro-ban majority must be reached. Note that this is a change from the original vote on Gengarite due to time constraints.

NOTE TO NEW VOTERS: this forum is moderated, if you submit your post but don't see it show up in the thread, then don't worry, it's perfectly normal.

If you have any question, then feel free to send me or one of the other Ubers mods a private message. Don't post anything but your vote/paragraph in this thread. Also, ONLY POST ONCE or you'll be infracted.

You have until November 12, 11:59 EST to post your vote. We will then review all the votes/paragraphs and post the results when finished.

In order to ensure the integrity of the testing process, YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE YOUR VOTE ONCE IT IS POSTED.

Note: The result of the test will in no way influence whether Ubers will remain in Official Tournaments.

Also Note: Do not let ORAS influence your vote. If Shadow Tag is banned now and merits reexamination later, there is no harm in doing so.

 

[dice]

voting to ban shadow tag

all 3 viable users skew team matchup in such a way that is unhealthy for the metagame. forcing blind 50/50s through removing a fundamental of pokemon in switching extenuates the issue of matchup in ubers. overpowered and uncompetitive aspects are not mutually exclusive. the fact that shadow tag can singlehandledly destroy even prepared teams and not allow for counterplay is what i find uncompetitive. my opinion is that all pokemon should have some form of counterplay, and shadow tag does not allow for that -- even the best pursuiters can usually only 1v1 at best and it forces you to have to predict which is simply glorified guessing. only shadow tag immune teams are truly able to prevent it from haunting them, and mono-ghost isn't the smartest of teambuilding.

 

[Thetwinmasters]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban
The criteria for banning Shadow Tag is based of uncompetitiveness. The definition for uncompetitiveness as created by the OU council "Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions-- and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive. While there is always luck involved in Pokemon, the problem is the degree to which control is taken away from the player. Removal of autonomy is the key to an uncompetitive tiering decision or clause."
While stag does take some control away from the player the key thing is the degree of control taken away from the player. I believe that Shadow Tag doesn't remove choice to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive when we compare it to other clauses.
Specific reasoning for my stag comparison to other clauses here:

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Swagger Clause: This move removed all choice from the game and replaced it with hoping you hit when confused which meant the only factor was the rng in most games with the move.

OHKO Clause: With OHKO moves you had a 30% chance to instantly remove a mon and there is no counter play against this so you just have to hope it misses to have a chance to make your decision count at all.

Moody Clause: This is pretty much similar to swagger where you have to hope to get insanely lucky to win and pretty much makes the only factor the rng in games which makes your choice irrelevant.

Sleep Clause: Having no sleep clause made it so you just spammed sleep moves and made the other persons choice non existent either it was switch out to get sleeped again or pray that sleep talk gets a good move or hope you get a 1 turn sleep which is all reliant on the rng.

Species Clause: I have never tested this so i will not comment on this

Endless Battle Clause: this was to stop people from making the ladder a game of who has more time to waste and doesn't rly matter.

Swagger, OHKO, and moody turn games into 100% rng controlled which makes playing the game pointless instead we could just play russian roulette IMO. The most comparable clause to Shadow Tag would be Sleep clause but i believe since sleep is mostly based on rng which is the Sleep Talk Roll or the Sleep length timer compared to Shadow Tag which doesn't rely on Shadow Tag it is much more uncompetitive since it removes more choice. I believe mgar doesn't come close to being as uncompetitive as our other clauses and thus should not be banned.

 

[Transcendent God Champion]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

Not only do I not see how Shadow Tag makes the game "uncompetitive" in any way (how exactly does eliminating "player choice" by preventing the opponent from switching any different from using Taunt against a Pokémon without a single attacking move, or sending in a Choice Scarf Kyogre and clicking Water Spout against a remaining team consisting of, say, Arceus-Rock, Ho-Oh and Mega Mewtwo X?), but it is also my personal belief that even if something did make a Pokémon metagame "uncompetitive" by adding more luck to it, that is hardly a justification for banning it, as let's face it, luck, whether it is in the form of 50/50 predictions, team matchups, "hax", or making guesses (educated, but still) about what moveset an opponent's Pokémon is running on a crucial turn (for example, making an important guess about whether the opponent's Mewtwo holds Mewtwonite X or Mewtwonite Y, or whether the opponent's Arceus-Ghost is Calm Mind or Swords Dance on a turn in which one automatically loses if they guess incorrectly), is omnipresent in every single Pokémon metagame ever since the first generation anyway.

Sorry about my previous post, please delete it. I messed it up when submitting it.

 

[asterat]

Shadow Tag: Ban

Honestly, the bottom line for me is just how much this ruins the metagame. If you see Gothitelle in team preview, there are so many mons that can be trapped at a moment's notice to the point that it's really not fair. If your team carries Ferrothorn, support Arceus, Dialga w/o roar, and so much else Gothitelle just removes the mon from the game without question. It doesn't force it out, it just ends its existence and gives the Gothitelle user a huge upper hand in the rest of the match. And the worst part is that Gothitelle can do this a number of times, systematically breaking down any team that isn't essentially hyper offense. There's a fine line between supporting a mon and breaking the game, and Gothitelle has completely crossed this line. It makes so many things impossible to use and just breaks down all balanced/defensive teams that it's a really unfair mon from the start of every battle. Gengarite is a sub issue that I don't love in the metagame either. Mega Gengar is a lot easier to use, and I assert that it is definitely a better pokemon, but it is not broken in the same way Gothitelle is as much as it is really good. It can really only kill off things weak to it's moves of choice and sacrifice itself with Destiny Bond eventually. I'm not saying it's completely fair or not somewhat broken, but I feel a slight element of brokenness is present in a lot of ubers pokemon so I don't know that this is a really viable argument. My biggest issue with Gengar is that it's extremely versatile and can be tailored to trap almost any mon. You can slap on Thunder and all of a sudden you can revenge kill Kyogre. HP fire (given a sun team) and you can decimate steel types. Because ubers has mons that are hard to check and require specified counters, the ability to remove one of these mons is pretty unfair and kind of makes one player lose sometimes. Even if you don't bring a mon weak to something you will still have a lot of issues with destiny bond, which is why this is ultimately unfair.

 

[Thugly Duckling]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

After playing on the suspect ladder using both STag-less and STag teams, I have come to the decision to vote no ban. However, unlike the last suspect; I almost exclusively used Gothitelle on my STag teams to help me get reqs. Admittedly I will confess that using Gothitelle made me feel like an a**hole, because initially it allowed me to dispose of almost any defensive check my opponent had to one of my sweepers. But what I realized while utilizing Gothitelle is I, the player, has full control of what I switch Gothitelle into and out of; and in return my opponent can make the same consciously-made plays to defend himself/herself from Gothitelle (prior to the initial trapping turn). It’s an unfair position on behalf of my opponent because he/she has to make aggressive, risky plays in order to avoid being trapped; but I too have to make plays in order to actually achieve a trap. Shadow Tag does not force decisions to be made by the RNG - it just causes a mental war between both players, a 50/50, which is unavoidable in competitive Pokemon.

This is much different from past suspects in the Uber tier, and for example, I’ll compare Shadow Tag to Moody. Moody allowed less-skilled players to beat higher-skilled players by depending on an external factor that neither player had control of in order to make advantageous plays, by all means an uncompetitive game element. Shadow Tag does not force such a thing to happen in a competitive battle, because the outcome of using it depends on the decisions of both players. If Player A beats Player B by using STag + [insert mon here], Player B was simply outplayed because he/she was able to make choices which prevented him/her from losing, but only if his/her team was prepared to face STag. We all know how matchup based XY Ubers is, and alongside running checks to certain Pokemon and also the team archetype one chooses to use comes the opportunity cost of being prone to STag.

So on the suspect ladder I chose to begin playing stall, and one of the best advantages I discovered of using stall is to have a switch-in to nearly every threat in the metagame. However and obviously, one of the great disadvantages of playing stall is being weak to STag. A team I used excessively was a team consisting of Forretress/Physically-Defensive Ho-Oh/Landorus-T/Sylveon/Specially-Defensive Palkia/Arceus-Dark, a very solid team; however, it definitely struggles against Mega-Gengar. I do not struggle against Mega-Gengar when I use this team because Mega-Gengar is broken and uncompetitive, I struggle against Mega-Gengar with this team because I made a deliberate choice in the teambuilding process to focus on checking other threats in the metagame rather than Mega-Gengar, a sort of ‘pick your poison’ on my behalf. This situation is no different than reaping the benefits of using Rayquaza on an offensive team at the risk of having a less sturdy Blaziken check. Yes, STag is a reason why stall is uncommon; but remember that Ubers does not ban to preserve playstyles, and I would actually describe the lack of stall on the ladder as a metagame shift, and nothing more. And for these reasons, I vote no ban.

 

[henry]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

Biggest argument I've seen to ban shadow tag is obviously that it makes game uncompetitive / causes 50/50s. 50/50s are inevitable aspects of the game and should not be grounds for banning something. It's obvious that 50/50s themselves are inevitable but cherry picking the aspects of it to ban is just stupid and would make our tiering system look like we just want to play by the rules that make it easier for us rather than fair and impartial. In terms of a shadow tag mon coming in to revenge kill, this isn't a valid argument as situations like this occur all the time in actual match play, just in other forms ( ie set up fodder). Shadow tag is fine and most people just want it banned because it requires a marginally larger thought process.

 

[tutterydiglett]

Shadow Tag: Ban

I've given this a lot of thought and now, I choose to BAN Shadow Tag from the current Ubers metagame. Normally, my argument would be that since ORAS is coming in 15 days or so, the banning of Shadow Tag would be irrelevant as the metagame might drastically change and Tag wouldn't be relevant anymore. However, since this vote should not be affected by that prospect, I believe BAN is the way to go.

Simply put, I believe that Shadow Tag just isn't "competitive". It essentially removes the ability of "switching" (arguable one of the most competitive elements in Pokemon) and severely limits team building, forcing people to run Pokemon that aren't weak to Shadow Tag or run dedicated sets/items that could maneuver around the ability.

Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions--

Shadow Tag most definitely takes away the control of the game's events. By essentially "trapping" a mon, the Shadow Tag user has literally taken all the control that the other player had and to reiterate what MM2 said: "If I have only one option to choose from I clearly have no control over the game's events. If that only option that I must choose and the only result that I can embrace is a loss, then that lack of control is very severe." -MM2

While there is always luck involved in Pokemon, the problem is the degree to which control is taken away from the player. Removal of autonomy is the key to an uncompetitive tiering decision or clause.

Again, "degree" can be debatable, but in this case, I think that Shadow Tag takes way too much control away from the opponent, causing the "competitive" element of battling to be reduced to the point in which Shadow Tag can be deemed as "uncompetitive".

 

[AM]

Shadow Tag: No Ban

Shadow Tag is not uncompetitive in the way that something like Swagger was. It's not an element based on the RNG and both players have choices in battle and teambuilding prior to trapping to mitigate the problem if such occurrence were to arise in that match. The loss of viability of such mons such as Defog Arceus forms towards Gothitelle for example shouldn't be considered a case on whether or not ST should be banned. Ubers should not cater to balancing playstyles or removing broken elements where Ubers is established as not only a tier at this point in time, but is also considered a banlist for the use of cut and dry broken elements. Shadow Tag is no more centralizing than dominant forces such as say, Xerneas, for example. It should be taken into account when teambuilding through the use of building with less ST weak mons and should be taking into account as a relevant aspect of battle when playing against a player who uses said element. With something like Swagger or OHKO Moves these two elements remove both factors entirely as one in the case of Swagger, it becomes a coin flip. With OHKO moves, it removes the competitive aspect through the nature of said moves. The removal or mitigation of choice is one that comes in various forms through almost all metagames, Shadow Tag is just a much more definitive one. ST can be considered a competitive element as its purpose is designed to trap and eliminate key threats to ones team. It all comes down to the fact that realistically players have choices more or less. These choices are not based on the simulator, they're based on the individuals who try to utilize or deter this aspect. As such with all the tools one has at their disposable to mitigate this aspect and many other centralizing forces in the metagame I believe that Shadow Tag should not be banned as there are truly competitive merit to the ability and said users of the ability within the tier.

Sidenote to mods who read this but ORAS, considering the topic is based on uncompetitiveness and not broken, will not change if Shadow Tag is uncompetitive or not. If it's uncompetitive then it always will be so I'm not exactly sure why that note is posted in the OP. That's like stating OHKO moves should be considered for reexamination when it's known that will never be the case for obvious reasons. It's just a thought really that I wanted to address.

 

[Mizuhime]

Ban

Reason:ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ ᴇᴅɢᴀʀ ɪs ᴍᴇᴍᴇxɪᴄᴀɴ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ

On a more serious note, shadow tag creates a matchup reliant metagame that is pretty cancerous even by Ubers standards. Removing one of the fundamental aspects of Pokemon creates a meta where using the wrong team at the wrong time can just make you lose automatically before the game even starts. Being weak to shadow tag restrict team formats and the ability to use some Pokemon in general. Shadow tag also allows for insane supporting options, simply just having the ability to remove a check without question makes even a lesser Pokemon like Gothitelle an extremely threatening Pokemon in Ubers of all tiers. I think Ubers really needs to ban Shadow Tag outright and maybe it will create a more healthy, balanced meta.

 

[aim]

Shadow Tag: Abstain

We are at the ending of this meta. I know that you said we shouldn't let ORAS affect our vote but we will have roughly two weeks of a "healthy meta" before the release. I see no point in banning something when Primal Don, Mence and Ray are about to take over. That is my honest opinion. This is why i wish to abstain as opposed to not ban.

 

[BKC]

Shadow Tag: Ban

I think shadow tag is an uncompetitive ability that's used as a crutch for worse players to beat people they can't outplay, and as such shouldn't be in a metagame that's in official tournaments. It takes team matchup to an extreme where games are decided at team preview even with well-built teams. Let's assume your Xerneas checks are Mega Scizor and Heatran, who each beat different variants of GeoXern depending on its moveset. You switch your Grassceus out of Gengar (whether it's on a double or as it mega evolves doesn't matter) into Scizor. You then eat an HP Fire, die, and get swept by Xerneas which happens to have Focus Blast. The ability to pick and choose what you want eliminated from a game with such little counterplay is absolutely undesirable. The 50/50 argument is obvious horseshit, I sure wouldn't want it in the tier even if my success rate was that of a coinflip. The thing is though even if you're winning these 50/50s, you're not winning, you're just not losing yet, and the opponent can try it over and over and over until they get you. It's the epitome of unfair.

 

[bb skarm]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

Simply put, Shadow Tag isn't so much of a problem that everyone makes it to seem. I feel as if Gengar lacks the effective power to KO all of its targets, and using Destiny Bond is unreliable and can be played around. Gothitelle, while also a bigger threat than Gengar, can effectively set up on any Pokemon on your team if it can't hit it hard or lacks momentum, but I find it easy to literally slap a Yvetal or DarkCeus to outright counter it if it takes out one of my mons. I personally have never had a problem with Shadow Tag, and I feel that it is an aspect of the game that keeps it from being completely balanced, and it in my opinion makes it more fun.

 

[Bughouse]

I don't think that Shadow Tag unduly benefits a weaker player. I'm aware that the wrong team matchup can't easily "play around it" and in that sense, perhaps it is uncompetitive, but I don't think that alone is a good enough reason, since team matchups shouldn't determine uncompetitiveness. That seems more a centralization argument to me. While it is true that Shadow Tag can clear the way for a sweep (or in Gothitelle's case, sometimes sweep itself) and so can pressure double switches, I don't think that is so different from 50/50s caused by many other Pokemon like Stalltwo or Sub Ho-Oh. The removal of switching itself I don't think is uncompetitive either. Restricting choices is a deeply rooted concept in Pokemon games, with Taunt, Encore, Disable, Torment, Imprison, Heal Block, Fairy Lock, Mean Look/Infestation/Magma Storm/etc, Safeguard, and I'm sure a few other moves as examples. Cursed Body is an example among abilities, along with many others that also reduce choice. Obviously, Shadow Tag is the most consistently impactful of the bunch, but reduction of choice is not inherently out of place in Pokemon. Ultimately you have to draw a line, and I don't think Shadow Tag crosses it.

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

 

[Minority]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

An excellent argument for the banning of Shadow Tag doesn't exist, although that is not the only issue.

The presence of Shadow Tag is definitely making Ubers a more miserable metagame, there's no doubt in my mind on that. However, what bothers me is that a Shadow Tag ban would be falsely claiming that this suspect test reached a just conclusion. I strongly value the concept of integrity in suspect testing so that we know the right decision was made, and in this case the test has little integrity. This suspect test is a clear example of a variety of other issues, and thus any conclusion is soiled. I dislike what sort of precedent this event would set and, especially given some of the recent circumstances, would like to be crystal clear on what is ethical for Ubers rather than simply getting at what we want.

 

[franklinfrank]

Ban
Shadow Tag is an extremely uncompetitive aspect of the ubers metagame that deserves to be banned. In a tier filled with threats such as Arceus, Kyogre, and Xerneas, the ability to trap the opponents checks/counters to these pokemon and eliminate them is absolutely devastating, as without these checks/counters, it becomes extremely difficult to stop these threats. The fact that trappers such as Mega Gengar and Gothitelle do this with fairly high consistency just makes things worse. However, I fell the main reason that shadow tag needs to be banned is the fact that it makes team matchup, something that players can't actually control, into a far more important factor than it should be. In addition, during the actual game, it takes out skill and forces players to try and win one or two crucial 50-50s to win the game, as opposed to making smart, calculated plays throughout the game that'll put you in a better position in the long run. For example, if a team with gothitelle+kyogre faces one with Arceus-Grass/Palkia as their main Kyogre check, the second player will have to make extremely risky plays that are essentially 50-50s, and if he loses even one, he'll probably lose the whole game. Whether he wins or loses is pretty much out of his control thanks to shadow tag. For these reasons, I believe shadow tag should be banned.

 

[Mr.378]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban


As said during the last voting period, ubers is a tier of overcentralization. It should not matter whether or not an aspect of it is overly powerful because that is the point of it. In order for an element to be removed from the ubers tier it should have to be uncompetitive. This means that it has to not only take away control from the players hands but also make the game objectively worse from a competitive view. I do not think that shadow tag breaks the game in such a way that mandates it's removal.

Shadow tag is as good as it is because it can effectively catch anything that is not a ghost or another shadow tag user and trap and eliminate it from the game without the ability for the opponent to save their pokemon by switching out. This sounds like it is uncompetitive because it takes away options from the opponent but it is not for a few key reasons. The first being that shadow tag, unalike the other game elements we have deemed uncompetitive can be prepared for in a relatively efficient way. Shadow tag users can be played around in a few ways because shadow tag is not all encompassing. Certain acts such as switching moves and ghost types can ignore shadow tag and allow switching anyway. The non mega Gengar shadow tag users can do little to prevent these counter plays and simply hope that they can get in on a pokemon that can do nothing to them. Which brings me to my next point, and why I feel as if shadow tag is fine in ubers. Its power is entirely context based. Certain pokemon who get the ability are only so good and can only trap certain other pokemon with it. This heavily contrasts the other banned game elements, which are far less contextually limited but also are game breaking on nearly any pokemon that may get them.

Shadow tag may be an overcentralizing ability in the ubers tier, but that does not mean that it is banworthy. It possesses enough flaws that make it clear that it does not destabilize the metagame, and that is why I am voting no ban in this vote.

 

[Its Kyoorem]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

I highly disagree the banning of the ability Shadow Tag for competitive play in the Ubers tier. First of all, the ability does not remove player skill like it did with Swagger + Foul Play. Due to team preview, it is possible to react accordingly to the poke that traps you with Stag. Whenever I was encountered with a team containing Gothitelle or Mega-Gengar, I had absolutely no problem handling them. Gothitelle is frail as is, so it won't appreciate taking any hits from my heavy hitters. If it does so happen to come in on a poke that I use to set up hazards such as Ferrothorn, I would know that I shouldn't start setting up as there is the possibility of getting tricked. Therefore, gyro ball or power whip is my optimal play. The important thing to note is that none of the pokes having the ability Stag have reliable recovery outside of rest or have high defenses. Gothitelle will be annihalated from any heavy hitter in the ubers tier, no problem. It also gets outsped by multiple things, so any strong physical poke can handle it after sacking one member. As for Mega-Gengar, Stag will always ensure that it will be able to heavily damage, taunt, or dbond a member. However, it cannot do so on the first turn, and must take a turn to mega evolve before its trapping ability takes place. An appropriate check or counter can then switched in. Mega Gengar will never appreciate switching into any hit and does not retain its Levitate ability, making it more suspectible to being OHKO'd upon switchin. The problem when Mega-Gengar was banned was not it's ability, but it's great offensive typing and offensive stats that made people believe that Stag made it even more uncompetitive. However, in conclusion, I do not believe that Shadow Tag is uncompetitive and therefore, am against banning it from the Ubers meta.

Its Kyoorem

 

[ntiller]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

I'm voting to keep Shadow Tag unbanned. This is because I think Shadow Tag is overpowered and not uncompetitive. The reason I think Shadow Tag is not uncompetitive is that it doesn't minimize the importance of the decisions both players make during teambuilding and gameplay, unlike incredibly haxy mechanics such as Moody and OHKO's. If I win because I successfully trap my opponent's key counter to one of my sweepers, I know that it was my strategic decisions made during teambuilding and gameplay that led to my victory- it wasn't that the RNG decided it liked me (or at least, the RNG didn't matter any more than it does during a "normal" game of Pokemon). If I lose because my opponent was able to trap my key counter, then again, I know that it was their strategic decisions that led to my defeat. For something to be uncompetitive, it needs to increase the importance of the RNG to the point that "correctness of player decisions" (both during teambuilding and gameplay) is no longer the primary factor in determining who wins and who loses. Shadow Tag doesn't do this at all, so it shouldn't be banned.

While Shadow Tag does increase the importance of some decisions relative to others (it makes teambuilding decisions much more important, and also frequently creates 50/50's that can outright decide the game), this is not an uncompetitive trait. It may not be a desirable trait in an ideal metagame, but Ubers is not an ideal metagame. At the end of the day, if you lose the game because your team matched up poorly or because you predicted incorrectly, then you still lost as the direct result of decisions that were made by you and your opponent. Yes, those decisions were made on incomplete information. That doesn't mean that they don't count as decisions.

 

[pikachu<3]

I vote NO BAN on tag.

Shadow Tag, while in some sense is simply another threat in the ubers metagame, is somewhat unique. If my team is Kyogre-weak, I can just put on a counter (say, SPDef Palkia) and call it a day. Or if my team is Kyogre-weak, I can add water Arceus (if running sun) or ferrothorn. If my team is weak to GeoXern, I can add a Heatran, Aegis, or even Poison Arceus. These threats don't constrain the entire team. On the other hand, if several of my team members are weak to tag, I might as well rebuild my team from scratch. Even if only one of my pokemon are weak to tag, my team is still considered "tag-weak", even if my other 5 mons counter the tagger in question. As a result, Shadow tag alone nearly invalidates the usage of mons like Arceus-Grass, Kelfki, Syveon, Chansey, etc, because there is little point in running these pokemon on a team if they can't do their job of walling threats like Kyogre properly when they're so afraid of getting trapped. It's sad to see that many otherwise perfectly viable pokemon aren't used nearly as often because of tag (in fact, if I remember correctly, none of Dice's teams ran Arceus-Grass)

Despite this, none of the arguments for banning tag have been particularly convincing. While the ability to remove a mon from the game is huge, it's interesting to note that Tag wasn't even very effective on ladder. This is probably due to people simply spamming HO teams, the playstyle Tag is least effective against. When games end anywhere in between 10 and 20 turns, the ability to remove a pokemon from the game on turn X doesn't matter as much (when x is say, turn 12 or 13). I'm suggesting turn 12 or 13 at the earliest because Goth is near-worthless against HO and Gengar typically doesn't lead and takes a turn to Mega-evolve. I myself had no problems when facing tag, as I used a 5-minute cookie-cutter HO team of Gengar/Deo-S/Kyogre/Geo-Xern/Genesect/Ekiller (not the best team, but whatever), none of which particuarly care about tag. It's entirely possible, if running HO, to make a team that doesn't have too many problems facing shadow tag. In fact, almost all of Dice's teams do decently well against Shadow Tag.

I understand that tournaments aren't the same HO fest as the ladder, but HO is still viable in tournaments. In a sense, you choose to be weak to tag by running a playstyle that isn't Hyper Offense. I understand that having the meta degrade into HOvsHO isn't the best thing in the world, but nothing about this strikes me as "uncompetitive".

It's also interesting to note that the arguments against Tag mainly revolve around the fact that, when using a tag-weak pokemon, one has to play aggressively against it, by double switching or otherwise. These risky plays ultimately degrade into several 50/50s that decide the battle to a coinflip. While this is true to an extent, this is also somewhat true for every threat our teams are weak to. For example, the team I used is extremely weak to Palkia. Palkia comes in for free against Kyogre and either paralyzes something with T-Wave or kills something with Surf/Thunder. In order to play against this threat, I have to double switch to something else (say, genesect), so that Palkia doesn't get a free switch-in. In other words, I am forced to make risky plays because my team was weak to a particular threat, and shadow tag is really no different in this regard.

In other words, while Tag may make the entire meta an Ho-fest and shits on defensive teams, it isn't really "uncompetitive" in any way. As such, I believe Tag should stay.

 

[shrang]

Do not ban

Shadow Tag is not uncompetitive. I'm going to use the following "accepted" definition for uncompetitive as provided by Dice and Melee Mewtwo in the suspect thread:

Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions--and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive.

Like I've mentioned before in my numerous posts in the suspect thread, I will accept that Shadow Tag does "take away autonomy" when the users trap Pokemon that are susceptible to it, it does not fulfill the second part of the definition (which is that is takes away where it should be considered "uncompetitive"). There are three main reasons for this:

1) Counterplay is in the teambuilder
- It is perfectly possible to make a team that is well-prepared for Shadow Tag while still adequately deals with most threats in the metagame. Dice/Hack/others have all made such teams. If Grass Arceus is particularly susceptible to trapping, then use something like SpD Palkia for your Kyogre check that isn't as easily trapped, for example. They are not totally immune, but no team has to be perfectly immune to any one threat in Ubers, it's a matter of weighing up what you really need to check and how well you need to check it.
- While Shed Shell/Volt-turn/phazing indeed makes certain Pokemon and teams worse off (some more pronounced than others) as compared to some other options and aren't the most reliable, there is no denying that they are ways for teams to minimise their weakness to Shadow Tag. You do not have to carry Shed Shell/Volt-turn on every one of your Pokemon because not every Pokemon is S-tag weak.

2) Trapping =/= winning the game (causation)
- Shadow Tag is a tool for people to remove certain threats, which in return, makes the opposing team weak to something else in their team. I will no deny that it makes things easier, in certain ways, for the user to win. That's its job. That's the job for any Pokemon on any team, otherwise you wouldn't use it. However, just because you can trap a certain Pokemon does not mean you will automatically win the game. Firstly, when you trap something, it doesn't mean you can automatically kill it. This is more relevant for Mega Gengar who usually has to play Taunt/Destiny Bond 50/50s and stuff, but for things like Gothitelle, setting up for a long times usually means you're pretty susceptible to crits. Secondly, even if you've killed something, it doesn't mean the game is over right there. There are plenty of opportunities for the opponent to come back and beat you. Just because you've trapped their Skarmory (for example), mean that you'll automatically be able to pull an Ekiller sweep. The opposing has numerous ways they can stop your other threats or even just execute their own strategy while you're doing whatever you're doing and win.
- About CM Gothitelle sweeps: Firstly, you can set up a Gothitelle to +6/+6 and take out a mon. However, any decently built team will have ways to stop a +6 Gothitelle sweep and have another look into the game. The only times where Gothitelle will pull off a sweep (where the only time you can really say S-tag "caused a win"), it's either when Gothitelle's counters have been eliminated already, or if the opponent never bothered to put checks to safeguard against a Gothitelle. Either way, these are coming from human decisions, which I'll talk about in...

3) "Autonomy" is still mostly intact for most of the game
- Basically, even though Shadow Tag traps certain Pokemon when it's in, for the majority of the game, both players have full control of what they do. When a Pokemon is trapped, it is through the decisions of both players that the Pokemon got trapped, not by any external factor. I think my post here explains everything what I want to say:

Hide

Anyway, I'm not here to overhype luck. I am here to give you an explanation on why luck has been a major factor (and usually deciding factor) in every ban we've had so far, and why, if you're going to even consider referring to past bans in Ubers, that you're going to have to come to terms of what made luck such an important factor in all the bans we've had. Like I said in my last post which you don't seem to have registered (of course I understand you don't even think what I have to say is worth reading any more), what makes Shadow Tag different from all the bans we've had so far is the fact that everything that Shadow Tag is based on are choices made by you and your opponent. Everything that Shadow Tag depends on are human decisions. You have intelligent, conscious choices that you make to either avoid/succumb to getting trapped by S-tag. If you lose to someone with Shadow Tag, it's not because it was something out of your control, but because you chose (whether you knew what was going to happen or not, whether you were forced to through your opponent's plays or not) to go in a sequence of events that led you to being beaten by Shadow Tag. If you want a quick summary of the last few lines, it comes down to "you were outplayed". For the most part apart from the intrinsic luck elements that we couldn't ban, if you outplayed your opponent (factoring in decisions regarding Shadow Tag), you won. The result depended on decisions made by both players. It's different from every other ban we've had (with the exception of Sleep Clause, which I've gone into in detail). For the other bans based on uncompetitiveness, be it Moody or Swagger or OHKO or Evasion in the past, you could outplay your opponent and still lose because the result depended on an external factor that is not in the control of either player. That external factor is conveniently what we refer to as luck. It has nothing to do with consistency/inconsistency. We didn't ban these things because it let you beat your opponent sometimes with luck and therefore something as consistent as S-tag deserves to banned. This is what is meant by the OU council's definition of "taking away control of the player", not whatever garbage to do with choice of switching, or what have you.[/hide[

tl;dr - Shadow Tag is still fully dependent on human decisions in which it functions, while every other ban we've made on grounds of "uncompetitiveness" has aspects of non-human factors, mostly from the RNG.

 

[SparksBlade]

Shadow Tag:Ban

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I see Shadow Tag as uncompetitive because it removes the option to switch(with only few exceptions), and switching in my opinion is a very important option to have. While counters can be said to exist, STag wielders can find a way around many of them(HP Fire Mega Gengar ang Charm Gothitelle). It is limiting to teambuilding and forces gimmicks like Shed Shell Blissey, which is only useful if the opponent is using STag, else it's a dead weight mostly. STag forces aggresive plays from the victim from the start, and punishes for a mistake far too heavily.

 

[The Quasar]

Shadow Tag: Ban

I'm not a skilled Uber player and I "took advantage" with this suspect to approch better this tier which I knew not so good. I think Shadow Tag take out skill because it's top much easy to trap a dangerous foe pokemon, stop it and easy KO it, with a suicide if necessary too. I think it's a clear advantage without skill, so annoying.
I enjoy myself to play uber, I thing without Shadow Tag could be even more.

 

[SlottedPig]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

Let me preface by stating that I have no qualms with banning anything from the Ubers tier. Unlike those who believe in its sanctity as a banlist where everything goes, I believe that the integrity of Ubers tournaments should be upheld whenever possible.

Whereas I could sympathize with arguments that Mega Gengar was toxic to the tier and often boiled games down to team matchup, I simply can't do the same for Gothitelle and by extension Wobbuffet, suggesting that Shadow Tag in and of itself is not at fault. Due to Gothitelle's lack of resistances, speed, bulk or even a particularly good STAB it is primarily limited to trapping non-offensive Pokemon. However threatening a +6 / +6 Gothitelle under Trick Room is, it doesn't do so in a way that places heavy constraints on the metagame. Packing Roar on defensive Dialga/Groudon/Kyogre, Dragon Tail on Palkia, and Heal Block on Klefki are just a few ways that Ubers has adapted to its presence.

Gothitelle also has significantly more counterplay than Mega Gengar. Gothitelle can never get past Dark types and it will rarely have more than 1 trapping target on the enemy team, so even if it gets 1 kill it is handily stopped by CM Darkceus, Taunt Yveltal, or Tyranitar. Furthermore, double switching in anticipation of Gothitelle is far more powerful than it is against Gengar; Gothitelle is forced out by more things than Gengar is and doesn't have the threat of Destiny Bond to neuter its opponent even after a well executed 50/50. Even 1 free turn that a botched double switch affords to insanely powerful threats Xerneas, E-Killer, Specs Kyogre or Band Ho-oh -- all of whom Mega Gengar beats or Destiny Bonds 1 on 1 -- alters the tempo of the game dramatically.

 

[casklord]

Okay want to keep this relatively to the point.
The ubers tier is full of semi-broken and absolutely powerful pokemon you have things like scarf kyogre, geo xern, Mm2, Choice Band Ho-oh et al. In teambuilding for the ubers tier you have to be concious of all the threats and create a team that can take on these threats. One such threat are shadow tag users, the can have a wide variety of roles such as gothitelle trapping support mons and setting up cms, wobbufet trapping and killing offensive threats and Mega Gengar doing a bit of both. Shadowtag is a very notable ability in the fact that it prevents one of the most basic actions of the game: Switching (unless you are a ghost or have shed shell). So obviously if you do not prepare for the threats and you leave in the wrong mon at the wrong time you can get set up on, or lose a crucial check or even have a powerful offensive threat be taken out.

Sure shadowtag is hard to prepare for so if you dont have a pursuit user/kill the gengar before it MEvos/kill the wobbofet by out playing it then you are going to inevitably get into 50/50s and this is a problem many users seem to have with shadow tag the fact that it creates 50/50s where "Bad" players can beat out "good" players therefore making it uncompetitive. However the thing that needs to be remembered about 50/50s is that they are in your favour just as much as they are in their favour so in the end it comes down to who can make the best play. If your opponent has played safely all game then you can be pretty sure he will go for taunt before d-bond (etc) or maybe he will go for d-bond first you have to be able to predict correctly if you want to come out best in the situation and that is what pokemon is all about predicting what your opponent is most likely to do and chosing the action that will result in the best set of probabilities for you. There are many more 50/50s in pokemon outside of the ones shadow tag creates.

Now with all this being said shadow tag is a huge threat and it can be hard to play around, and it does tend to slightly favour the stag user in the 50/50s so they arent exactly even however it is important to remember that YOU CAN USE SHADOW TAG AS WELL. Sure this will centralise the meta alot more but ubers is a heavily centralised meta nayway with only a handful of pokemon being viable.

Personally i rarely have trouble against the main shadow tag users

• Wobbufet- I can play around and make predictions on the counter/mirror coat or encore
• Gothitelle- Can be extremely dangerous if it comes in on a suppourtceus, klefki, lugia etc. But it is not as bulky as you tend to think and can be worn down by hazards and attacks
• Mega Gengar- Obviously the scariest Stag threat i usually dont let if mevo for free and just outplay my opponent by doubling into a check

tl;dr

• Play around it
• You can use it as well
• 50/50s are part of the game

So yeah NO BAN