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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

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radianthero156 , I hate to sound like a complete a$$ here, but for (at least) the 3rd time stop focusing on one characteristic of Mega Manectric. Despite only having one set, it's not one-dimmensional. It has Intimidate+Volt Switch to support its team. It has base 135 Speed to outpace loads of crap bar Scarf users and Jolly Mega Aerodactyl. Tell me how AV Tornadus-T is OHKOing Mega Manectric. I'll tell you how; it won't. I'll grant you Nidoking since it's arguably the hardest thing to switch into right now. You can simply VS out of Mega Blastoise and go to something like Roserade. Rinse and repeat with Florges who can't do shit to Roserade or Nidoking (gasp, they're great teammates for M-Manectric as is) It's called having a phazer for Suicune... or outright overpowering it with a physical attacker. Again, VS out of Celebi and go to any number of Fire- or Flying-types (Darmanitan, Victini, Tornadus-T. Take your pick. They all work well with M-Manectric anway) If you really hate Celebi's soul, use Signal Beam.

Yellow Cheese , I'm sorry, but Jolteon is not going to reliably beat M-Manectric. Best Jolteon has is Shadow Ball. Best M-Manectric has is Overheat.

As I've said before, M-Manectric doesn't have sheer power, sheer sweeping capabilities, or sheer supporting capabilities. Its the ability for M-Manectric to do all of those things effectively in one teamslot that makes it so good. I don't believe it should be S rank since it's hard walled by Chansey and has some issues with Ground-types depending on the Hidden Power type it chooses, but it can simplify teambuilding so much for offensive teams. I mean, you get something that can wallbreak, sweep, or pivot depending on what's needed. That's 3 in 1. I'm not going to complain about having to use a Mega slot for something like that. It's a great Pokemon, but if you're focusing on just one aspect about it, you're going about it wrong. M-Manectric is one of those Pokemon that can shine in different ways on the same team depending on the circumstances that arise. A+ is good for it, and the only things really keeping it from S rank is mild coverage issues and the fact it takes up a Mega slot.

and

it's not just the power (or sometimes, lackthereof) that Megatric has. Electric/Fire coverage alone is really good on some common defensive cores. Add in HP Ice or HP Grass, and you have some pretty neat coverage on most UU threats. Plus, you get 92 special attack with Life Orb... without the recoil. That adds to your ability to pivot with Intimidate + Volt Switch. That adds to your ability to sustain against defensive threats that try to LO stall things. That gives you more attacks to work with because you're not losing 10% of your max HP every time you attack. As I've said before, I've used Mega Manectric ever since the start of XY UU. It really has never disappointed me and I usually get decent usage, at worst, out of it every single battle I use it in. It's just so flexible. Sometimes you don't need to sweep with it, but remove an annoying Grass- or Steel-type that is troubling your sweeper. Sometimes you just need an Intimidate drop on a physical attacker for your physical tank / wall to stop a threat from sweeping your team. Other times, you just need something to stop a Mienshao or Tornadus-T from sweeping your team and Megatric has the Speed and power to do that. It's everything put together, not just one thing that makes Mega Manectric such a solid Pokemon imo.

This really isn't directed at one person, and I'm not trying to be an a$$, but stop focusing on one thing with Mega Manectric and look at everything it can do well with just one teamslot.
 
I totally did forget about Stone Edge when I wrote that post, but I don't think anyone is kidding anyone when you say Crunch and Earthquake are way better. Whoever wrote on that Assault Vest set, you are 100% correct. I haven't used it in UU yet but that set was an unholy nightmare in OU. You cripple a huge number of checks and counters like Lando-T and Kyurem-B for simply switching in on Sacred Fire. Arcanine can do this with Will-O-Wisp and lucky Flare Blitz burns, but you lose out on damage or consistency.
 
Nominating Tornadus-T for S-Rank. It's really just ridiculous to deal with right now. It 2HKOes just about every offensive threat in existence barring one of the Electric-type Megas or Mega Aerodactyl, and combined with its insane Speed the amount of pressure it can put on offense is honestly fucking stupid. It's no slouch against bulkier teams either--thanks to the sheer power of Hurricane, its fantastic coverage, and Knock Off + U-turn combo, the only things that can consistently wall it are dedicated special walls like Florges (not to mention Zapdos is gone!) And even against those, Knock Off + U-turn combined with its Speed and Regenerator means it can cripple them, keep up momentum and often even outlast them. Probably its only flaw is its inability to take down defensive cores all by itself, but with it being such a fantastic pivot it can easily just pair up with a wallbreaker like Nidoking and clean up later. Basically it's a bitch to deal with and one the most defining forces in the tier, and definitely worthy of S-Rank.
 
Dat Blast said:
Nominating Tornadus-T for S-Rank. It's really just ridiculous to deal with right now. It 2HKOes just about every offensive threat in existence barring one of the Electric-type Megas or Mega Aerodactyl, and combined with its insane Speed the amount of pressure it can put on offense is honestly fucking stupid. It's no slouch against bulkier teams either--thanks to the sheer power of Hurricane, its fantastic coverage, and Knock Off + U-turn combo, the only things that can consistently wall it are dedicated special walls like Florges (not to mention Zapdos is gone!) And even against those, Knock Off + U-turn combined with its Speed and Regenerator means it can cripple them, keep up momentum and often even outlast them. Probably its only flaw is its inability to take down defensive cores all by itself, but with it being such a fantastic pivot it can easily just pair up with a wallbreaker like Nidoking and clean up later. Basically it's a bitch to deal with and one the most defining forces in the tier, and definitely worthy of S-Rank.
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I 100% agree with this. Tornadus is an absolute pain for offensive teams, and it basically forces you to run a Mega (Manetric, Ampharos, Aerodactly and Aggron are like the only offensive counters) on your team. This thing is near-broken with the amount of offensive pressure it put on a team, and S-Rank fits it perfectly.
 
Dat Blast said:
Nominating Tornadus-T for S-Rank. It's really just ridiculous to deal with right now. It 2HKOes just about every offensive threat in existence barring one of the Electric-type Megas or Mega Aerodactyl, and combined with its insane Speed the amount of pressure it can put on offense is honestly fucking stupid. It's no slouch against bulkier teams either--thanks to the sheer power of Hurricane, its fantastic coverage, and Knock Off + U-turn combo, the only things that can consistently wall it are dedicated special walls like Florges (not to mention Zapdos is gone!) And even against those, Knock Off + U-turn combined with its Speed and Regenerator means it can cripple them, keep up momentum and often even outlast them. Probably its only flaw is its inability to take down defensive cores all by itself, but with it being such a fantastic pivot it can easily just pair up with a wallbreaker like Nidoking and clean up later. Basically it's a bitch to deal with and one the most defining forces in the tier, and definitely worthy of S-Rank.
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I also third this. I've been using Tornadus-T a lot, and it's such a good Mon. Let's do a full interview of this Tornadus-T:

Stats: It's defensive stats are not incredible, 79/80/90 defenses are not the best, but still enough to take a hit or two, paired with it's amazing ability (in Abilities) it can actually sponge special hits pretty well using the AV set. It's offensive side of 100/110/121 are definitely something to watch out for. Although not high stats, with the ability to run Special, Physical, and even Mixed sets, it can be quite unpredictable. Sadly, it's offensive stats are not THAT high. So it can be stopped by walls, although with all the Pokemon it can pair with so easily, it's not a large problem.

Abilities: You cannot argue against this; Regenerator is easily one of the best abilities in the game. Being a Flying-Type, it only takes entry-hazard damage from Stealth Rock, which does 25%. Normally this would be a nightmare, but Regenerator counters it. Regenerating 33% of your health per switch is unbelievable, and paired with superb speed and U-Turn, it expands Tornadus' bulk far more than you would expect.

Movepool: Tornadus is one of those Pokemon who doesn't have the greatest movepool, but all the moves are just right. Knock Off/U-Turn is amazing, especially with the Knock Off buff. The special sets are obviously not the best due to not having Drizzle, but it can deal some wicked damage and actually do plenty of damage to lots of unsuspecting Pokemon.

Summary/Other: Pressure. Tornadus puts a lot of pressure on your team, again, with not very high stats, it's not powerful. But what makes it so good is that it's unpredictable, it's unmatched speed, a great ability, and it gives you the key to winning battles; Momentum. I cannot stress how good Knock Off + U-Turn is, being able to Knock Off their item, and switch out regenerating 1/3 of your health is great. It cripples foes so easily, and can even defeat them with time given. The momentum it gives to your team is brutal, using a few of it's moves and switching, it stays healthy and still deals a heck of a lot of damage. For example, lets use a Donphan in a scene like this:

Go Donphan!
Go Tornadus!

Donphan uses Ice Shard: 252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 110-130 (36.7 - 43.4%)
Tornadus used Knock Off: 252 Atk Tornadus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 76-90 (19.7 - 23.4%)
Donphan's Assault Vest was knocked off!

Tornadus, come back! (Regenerates 33% of health, minimum of 90% health, and maximum of 97%)
Go, Slowbro!
Donphan uses Ice Shard: 252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 15-18 (3.8 - 4.5%)

Donphan uses Earthquake: 252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 115-136 (29.1 - 34.5%)
Slowbro uses Scald: 4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Donphan: 260-308 (67.7 - 80.2%)

See what I mean? Knock Off assists in so many ways, it pressures your opponents into switching or even sacking off a Pokemon.
These are my reasons, Tornadus-T should go to S Rank.
 
Nominating Florges for A- Rank. WishTect is the shittiest form of recovery right now with the protect nerf. This do not help when the most commnon phazers simply don't care about it (Mega Aggron, SpDef Hippowdon, Snorlax, Empoleon). The phazers can simply come in to threaten it and phaze it out the turn after it uses Wish. Since Protect cannot stop phazing now, Florges can never recover its health throughout the match and even what it 'counters' can easily overwhelme it. While it is a good pokemon able to beat many top threats, it is far to easy to stop it from doing its job.
 
Saying that Florges can "never" recover its health is a gross overexaggeration and doesn't take into account what will actually happen during a game. Florges' job is also not solely Wishpassing. It is also one of the best walls in the tier (probably tied for best special wall with Umbreon after Chansey's ousting) and it's one of the best clerics (again, probably tied with Umbreon). To claim that a phazer will come in 100% of the time to phaze it out of Wishtect is a tremendously bad claim that has no basis in fact. YOU might always switch in one of those Pokemon and always phaze, but you are one player in a much larger tier.
 
EonX-
What I ment with Jolteon stoping Mega-manectric it cannot 2HKO it with overheat (because of the Sp.atk drop) and it stops it from volt switching everywhere, and Specs shadow ball 2HKOs standard Mega-manectric. I find such a problem that I run HP ground over HP ice only to hit jolteon harder.
 
I'm going to stray way off-course here and introduce a bit of an unorthodox nominatin here. Poliwrath for C-Rank.

So here I am, it's essentially 1am, and I'm reading the Poliwrath discussion thread. I noticed something; there's a lot of overlooked niche stuff that Poliwrath does. The biggest two mentions are being a full stop to Cloyster and being a very reliable switch-in to Crawdaunt. Seeing that those are both relatively important Pokemon (A and A+ respectively), it's not a total crapshoot to suggest such a ranking. Thanks to Water Absorb and RestTalk, there actually isn't a single bulky Water-type that can beat it 1 on 1 (Gastrodon probably could if it was running Earth Power I guess) besides Slowbro, Slowking, and Lanturn. Poliwrath is in fact a hard counter to Suicune, who's notoriously become one of the most annoying Pokemon in the tier. Darmanitan is also pretty much dookied upon by Poliwrath, which is neat.

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 135-165 (35.1 - 42.9%) -- approx. 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 265-312 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 100-118 (26 - 30.7%) -- 63.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Long sleep-deprived story shot, it's worth using, but don't shit yourself over it, cause it isn't that good. It's good at what it needs to do however.
 
Lord of Bays said:
Saying that Florges can "never" recover its health is a gross overexaggeration and doesn't take into account what will actually happen during a game. Florges' job is also not solely Wishpassing. It is also one of the best walls in the tier (probably tied for best special wall with Umbreon after Chansey's ousting) and it's one of the best clerics (again, probably tied with Umbreon). To claim that a phazer will come in 100% of the time to phaze it out of Wishtect is a tremendously bad claim that has no basis in fact. YOU might always switch in one of those Pokemon and always phaze, but you are one player in a much larger tier.
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I would say Florges is a good amount better than umbreon, since is is not weak to common types and hold more offensive power.
 
Nominating Alomomola for B+ or A- rank. With the tier shifts Alomomola no longer competes with Chansey as a wish passer, which means it now passes the largest wishes in the tier even when it's HP is uninvested.

Alomomola is a fantastic defensive pivot as it is the only viable pokemon that possess regenerator and wish meaning players can essentially heal two members of their team just by switching out after a wish. Another feature that adds to Alomomola's bulk is Knock off. As we all know knock off received a huge buff this gen and while we have seen how effective, when it is utilised against walls who need their leftovers, we have never really thought about its affect against sweepers that need their boosting items to do significant damage. The good news is that Alomomola possess knock off and the icing on the cake is that without their choice bands or life orbs very few physical attacker can defeat Alomomola's physically defensive set 1 on 1, which is actually bulkier than defensive Krookodile .

252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 294-346 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Krookodile: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 294-346 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 196-232 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 224-265 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 258-304 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 172-204 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 237-281 (44.3 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 274-324 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 124-146 (23.2 - 27.3%) -- 59.4% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 276-325 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 184-217 (34.4 - 40.6%) -- 52.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 294-348 (55 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 255-302 (47.7 - 56.5%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 196-232 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see from the calcs it is incredibly hard for any of the tiers physical attackers to take down Moloa without a choice band and thanks to regenerator and wish recovery once it uses knock off it essentially hard walls most physical attackers a feat that like Alomomola is underestimated.
 
C AllStar said:
Nominating Florges for A- Rank. WishTect is the shittiest form of recovery right now with the protect nerf. This do not help when the most commnon phazers simply don't care about it (Mega Aggron, SpDef Hippowdon, Snorlax, Empoleon). The phazers can simply come in to threaten it and phaze it out the turn after it uses Wish. Since Protect cannot stop phazing now, Florges can never recover its health throughout the match and even what it 'counters' can easily overwhelme it. While it is a good pokemon able to beat many top threats, it is far to easy to stop it from doing its job.
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Now that Chansey is gone Florges is only better. Now, it is simply the best special wall in the tier, no questions. Wish as only source of healing sucks but that's probably the sole thing keeping it out of S. It's one of the best Pokemon in UU, A- would be a joke.

"Florges can never recover its health throughout the match" is just flat out untrue. People do it all the time, even high on the ladder. Yeah, there are plenty of phazers that can come in and prevent it from healing, but you might as well say there are plenty of walls/counters that can come in and stop something from sweeping thus they'll never be able to sweep. Those Pokemon are not going to be present every match, nor will they always have roar and they will not always employ that strategy (I can't actually think of a time this was ever used on me and I have Florges in nearly every team.)

"even what it 'counters' can easily overwhelme it" is also just completely untrue. Very few special attackers can get past it without SE moves (which are so rare anyway, Fairy is an incredible typing) or boosting. It doesn't have Chansey's level of retarded special bulk but it's really hard to take down with special attacks (e.g. Chandelure's Fire Blast only 3HKO's a 252/0 Florges.)
 
Archeops down to C.
It's my very favorite pokemon, but let's be honest here. Defeatist is shit, it leaves furstburd with a functional base HP of somewhere around -18, and it can't run sash because if it's even in the yellow it's dead weight (you could run FEAR, but then you lose a stab or u-turn, either of which is just unacceptable). It's got good offensive stats, but its only decent stabs are head smash and acrobatics. Those two moves in the same moveset are just about as incompatible as they could possibly be, with a pokemon as frail as Archeops really missing the ability to recover recoil damage (you'll never get to use roost), but also really missing powerful flying stab. You could run Stone Edge or Rock Slide instead of Head Smash and Pluck or Bounce instead of Acrobatics, but then you miss out on some desperately needed OHKO's. The absence of flying gem ain't doing this guy any favors either.

That being said, Archeops is a hell of a scout. 110 speed isn't bad at all (with sticky web support it's amazing), and Archeops packs probably the most powerful non-STAB U-turn in the game and forces enough switches to make use of it. It needs the hell out of some bulky teammates it can hard-switch to to avoid priority and faster threats, but its ground immunity in turn helps a lot of its suitable meat-shields out.

Mega Aerodactyl is a better option in most cases, due to its superior bulk and speed and similar power. If it got U-turn, that most would be spelled with an A and two L's instead.
 
Sergeant Spooky said:
Now that Chansey is gone Florges is only better. Now, it is simply the best special wall in the tier, no questions. Wish as only source of healing sucks but that's probably the sole thing keeping it out of S. It's one of the best Pokemon in UU, A- would be a joke.

"Florges can never recover its health throughout the match" is just flat out untrue. People do it all the time, even high on the ladder. Yeah, there are plenty of phazers that can come in and prevent it from healing, but you might as well say there are plenty of walls/counters that can come in and stop something from sweeping thus they'll never be able to sweep. Those Pokemon are not going to be present every match, nor will they always have roar and they will not always employ that strategy (I can't actually think of a time this was ever used on me and I have Florges in nearly every team.)

"even what it 'counters' can easily overwhelme it" is also just completely untrue. Very few special attackers can get past it without SE moves (which are so rare anyway, Fairy is an incredible typing) or boosting. It doesn't have Chansey's level of retarded special bulk but it's really hard to take down with special attacks (e.g. Chandelure's Fire Blast only 3HKO's a 252/0 Florges.)
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No, I am not saying that Florges is bad. However, I mean that if the opposing team has a phazer, it can just constantly switch in since Florges cannot do much damage to them while their respective STAB moves hit Florges pretty hard. You may not have faced such situation, but these phazers are really viable and can stop Florges from healing. Since Florges' job is to take hits, it needs to be constantly in high health to do so. With phazers stopping its healing, every damage it takes from opposing sweepers become incurable. It may stop ScarfCross once, but the damage racks up and ScarfCross can overwhelm it after coming in several times without recovery. These phazers may not be present in many matches, but must be considered when building a team. This doesn't matter how bulky Florges is, but it usually needs to come into threats many times in a match and gets worn down really quickly. With phazers' presence, Florges cannot properly fufil its job.

It also doesn't matter if sweepers can be stopped from sweeping. They can still apply offensive pressure to the opponent even they are walled and the match is around wearing down their checks and counters until they can sweep. However, Florges cannot outlast what it is supposed to wall if lacking recovery. Unlike other WishTect users, Florges' main STAB doesn't even hit the major phazers hard enough (Snorlax, SpDef Hippowdon, Mega Aggron, Empoleon) while Umbreon has a quite powerful Foul Play and Vaporeon is even better with Scald. I am not saying Florges is ineffective, but it isn't consistant enough to fufill its role. A- Rank seems better for Florges.
 
C AllStar said:
No, I am not saying that Florges is bad. However, I mean that if the opposing team has a phazer, it can just constantly switch in since Florges cannot do much damage to them while their respective STAB moves hit Florges pretty hard. You may not have faced such situation, but these phazers are really viable and can stop Florges from healing. Since Florges' job is to take hits, it needs to be constantly in high health to do so. With phazers stopping its healing, every damage it takes from opposing sweepers become incurable. It may stop ScarfCross once, but the damage racks up and ScarfCross can overwhelm it after coming in several times without recovery. These phazers may not be present in many matches, but must be considered when building a team. This doesn't matter how bulky Florges is, but it usually needs to come into threats many times in a match and gets worn down really quickly. With phazers' presence, Florges cannot properly fufil its job.

It also doesn't matter if sweepers can be stopped from sweeping. They can still apply offensive pressure to the opponent even they are walled and the match is around wearing down their checks and counters until they can sweep. However, Florges cannot outlast what it is supposed to wall if lacking recovery. Unlike other WishTect users, Florges' main STAB doesn't even hit the major phazers hard enough (Snorlax, SpDef Hippowdon, Mega Aggron, Empoleon) while Umbreon has a quite powerful Foul Play and Vaporeon is even better with Scald. I am not saying Florges is ineffective, but it isn't consistant enough to fufill its role. A- Rank seems better for Florges.
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I've used Florges since uu came out, and I never (well one single time but still) had problems with that. Florges is an amazing special or even mixed wall, and definitely deserves A+.
 
C AllStar said:
Nominating Florges for A- Rank. WishTect is the shittiest form of recovery right now with the protect nerf. This do not help when the most commnon phazers simply don't care about it (Mega Aggron, SpDef Hippowdon, Snorlax, Empoleon). The phazers can simply come in to threaten it and phaze it out the turn after it uses Wish. Since Protect cannot stop phazing now, Florges can never recover its health throughout the match and even what it 'counters' can easily overwhelme it. While it is a good pokemon able to beat many top threats, it is far to easy to stop it from doing its job.
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What Protect nerf?
And it's not like Florges has 4MSS issues so she can run Wish+Protect just fine.

Ernesto edit: Protect doesn't prevent Roar/Whirlwind from working anymore.
 
C AllStar said:
No, I am not saying that Florges is bad. However, I mean that if the opposing team has a phazer, it can just constantly switch in since Florges cannot do much damage to them while their respective STAB moves hit Florges pretty hard. You may not have faced such situation, but these phazers are really viable and can stop Florges from healing. Since Florges' job is to take hits, it needs to be constantly in high health to do so. With phazers stopping its healing, every damage it takes from opposing sweepers become incurable. It may stop ScarfCross once, but the damage racks up and ScarfCross can overwhelm it after coming in several times without recovery. These phazers may not be present in many matches, but must be considered when building a team. This doesn't matter how bulky Florges is, but it usually needs to come into threats many times in a match and gets worn down really quickly. With phazers' presence, Florges cannot properly fufil its job.

It also doesn't matter if sweepers can be stopped from sweeping. They can still apply offensive pressure to the opponent even they are walled and the match is around wearing down their checks and counters until they can sweep. However, Florges cannot outlast what it is supposed to wall if lacking recovery. Unlike other WishTect users, Florges' main STAB doesn't even hit the major phazers hard enough (Snorlax, SpDef Hippowdon, Mega Aggron, Empoleon) while Umbreon has a quite powerful Foul Play and Vaporeon is even better with Scald. I am not saying Florges is ineffective, but it isn't consistant enough to fufill its role. A- Rank seems better for Florges.
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I'm sorry, but I really fail to see how going "I think Florges is going to go wish, so I'm going to lose all momentum I may or may not have with the current poke on the field and switch into my phazer, take any hazard damage that might be up, while she gets up a free wish. Then, when it's perfectly obvious that I'm going to phase, I'm just going to eat the moonblast no matter what and then phaze her to another poke who still gets all the health back from the wish. HUZZAH" is even a reliable strategy, let alone something that makes Florges weak. Moreover, Florges is not meant to stop ScarfCross, and if it's the only poke on your team capable of doing so there are bigger problems than being phazed out of a wish going on.

Also, it's worth noting that if wishpassers are truly so susceptible to this dubious strategy, Florges is the wishpasser who is least susceptible, given that she is immune to most of the phazing in the tier. I think you'll find that the majority of phazers end up being things like DTail Krookodile, or DTail Zygarde, or DTail Rhyperior - things that aren't exactly hunky-dory with taking a moonblast even if they couldn't do shit to florges. I'm not saying roar doesn't exist, but you're talking about a very niche strategy that's only accessible by an extremely small percentage of teams that is then only used by an extremely small percentage of teams. Something like that doesn't come close to bringing Florges down to A- Rank.
 
The problem is Florges cannot do anything to the common users orf Roar and Whirlwind. What is Moonblast even doing to Empoleon, Snorlax etc. You need to take account that Florges also needs to take hazard damage and a heavy hit when coming in and failing to do anything in return while being phazed out when Wishing. Roar and Whirlwind isn't anything 'niche' (seriously, phazing is niche?). I am not saying that Florges cannot counter a large amount of things. However, the large amount hits it is supposed to take makes it worn down fast. When phazers are present, Florges is often the easiest to break in a defensive core. It therefore needs something as a backup counter to things it is supposed to beat, making it somewhat restricting in teambuilding.

When compared with Umbreon and Vaporeon, Florges has an advantage of being immune to Dragon Tail. However, Vaporeon is obviously better against phazers since few of the phazers can take Scald well while the ones capable of taking hates burn. Umbreon's Foul Play also hits many phazers hard too but still sucks against some of them. I don't mind it drop down a rank or two but I don't really have much experience on it so I won't talk about it. It doesn't matter if anyone haven't seen much phazers personaly since they are still extremely viable and completely wrecks Florges thanks to its common users being Florges 'counters'. A- isn't even a bad rank with bulky monsters like Mega Aggron within. However, I don't really find Florges consistant enough in its role to be in A+ Rank.
 
I'm still getting stuck on the point where a phazer switching into Florges as it uses Wish (good luck predicting that 100% of the time, by the way) is the only thing players will ever do. Again, that may be the only strategy you ever employ against it, but your playstyle does not account for the whole fucking tier, and you need to stop acting like it does.

Phazers are viable, yes. Stall is viable, way more so than in OU, yes. But that is one very specific strategy you're espousing that will be extremely limited in its effectiveness. Good job, your Snorlax phazed Florges into their Scarfmoxiecross who is now at full health. What next?
 
Why would I even need to predict when all four of the mentioned common phazers don't really give a fuck about Florges. Moonblast does like nothing to all of them while they can either strike Florges hard with their respective STAB if Florges does not Wish or just phaze Florges out if it does. Florges cannot recover health to perform its role.

I am also not saying phazing is used by the whole tier. However, you shouldn't not be preparing for it just because it is not common or else your team will just fail. It isn't even anything near 'specialized' strategy at all. When have you not seen a Hippowdon not running Whirlwind while defensive varients of Empoleon, Mega Aggron and Snorlax always run phazing moves in order to stop setup sweepers on their check. A well-built team should have an answer against any unboosted threat even at full health while boosting sweepers can't even boost properly thanks to the phazing moves. I am not saying Florges is bad and can never fufill its role, but it isn't really reliable at time (vs phazes) to be considered as A+ Rank.
 
Nominating Nidoking for A+. Nidoking got even more amazing after chansey left, as now pretty much nothing can wall it. Florges&Aggron is probably the most common defensive core, and Nidoking breaks it without problems. Nidoking hits every pokemon in A+ and S for super effective damage, except mienshao who cant take a hit. It has a speed issue, but you could run scarf (inferior to life orb), or sticky web. But i use Nidoking more as a wall-breaker and a late-game cleaner.
 
actually, mega aggron should always use roar instead of dtail, because of substitute users and fairies, while also being better against rock helmet users. not to mention roar's accuracy is infinitely superior. the only point about dragon tail is that it can be taunted, but which taunt users you would prefer to phaze instead of just attacking (tornadus, azelf, etc)?

that said, i found florges to be kinda overrated, but i don't think it should drop. its type and defenses are just far too good. i just wish it had recover instead of wish
 
SmashBrosBrawl said:
Phazers are not common at all, and aggron almost always run dragon tail anyway. Your arguments are complete non sense if you're actually suggesting to drop the best wall in the tier a whole 2 ranks just because of empoleon and hippowdon (snorlax is in RU range lol).
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Feel free to ignore these threats when teambuilding. This will lead you to a dead Florges. Mega Aggron should always run Roar or threats like SubCM Jirachi, SubCoil Zygarde (can be emergency check and play mindgames with ice move and Roar) will screw over it. Usage doesn't mean viability and Snorlax is a great mon (B+ Rank). Even fucking Suicune is RU now. I guess we can all not care about it when building teams lol.

Something being uncommon right now doesn't mean it shouldn't be prepared. Hell, even stall is only 3.0897% of last month's usage stats in UU. That doesn't mean we should forget about stall when building a team. Florges can do absolutely NOTHING to deal with the phazers. Yes, it can usually fufil its role in most matches since people still haven't realise phazing can stop Florges from healing (quote:what is protect nerf?) However, reliability is an important aspect for a pokemon to success. It is extremely risky if you rely on Florges to check certain dangerous threats when your opponent carries a phazer.

A similar example maybe Chansey in Ubers. While it can wall every special attackers sans full health SpecsOgre, Mewtwo and Monoattacker CM Arceus formes, it is completely wrecked by Mega Gengar which is used by 9% of teams (assuming no ladder trolls using regular Gengar). It can't even viably run Shed Shell and is therefore rejected for an Uber analysis. While Chansey in Ubers have more problems (no offensive presence, cannot be mixed wall etc) while Florges can still somewhat switch into stuffs once even when the opposition has a phazer. However, it would be unable to proper function as long as phazers are present. In fact, I would even argue it for S Rank if it can run something like Wish+Softboiled like Chansey. However, I don't find it reliable enough right now as an A+ Rank poke.
 
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