Maybe I was just unlucky running into one lol.Fizz said:
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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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I dunno, dude. I'm sure every point I'm about to make on Mega Houndoom has probably been posted in this thread, but lemme just give my 2 cents on why I think this dog might get booted again.
1. After a Nasty Plot, most of the tier is being 2HKOed by just its STABs alone
2. Base 115 Speed means only a handful of unboosted Pokemon not including Scarfers can safely go to revenge kill it
3. Access to Destiny Bond allows it to take out slower Pokemon who may actually be able to stand up to it
4. With Hydreigon and Crawdaunt, some of its best offensive checks, now missing from the tier, it's actually deadlier in this metagame now than before it was banned
1. When you realize that the only Pokemon in the UU metagame who resist Mega Houndoom's STABs are Sharpedo (lol), opposing Houndoom, Poliwrath, and Emboar, you kind of can expect that most switch-ins aren't going to enjoy a boosted hit. In fact, in general, Pokemon who can afford to switch in on a Mega Houndoom at +2 and have a chance to stand up against it are mainly Specially Defensive Bulky Waters, Assault Vest users (preferably bulky waters using AV), and I guess Trace Porygon2 before Mega Evolution. In general, anyway. There's many specific examples I could get into (seriously though, AV Emboar actually ruins this thing lolol) but that alone means you're going to be better off checking it offensively, as I'll explain under point no. 2, or having to sack a wall just to soften it up, and then another one to just barely hang on and finish it off. And by then, it's already done its job.
2. Literally the only thing barring Choice Scarfers that are outpacing Mega Houndoom without any boosts after Mega Evolution are Crobat, Jolteon, Noivern, Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl, and Tornadus-T. Base 115 is shared by several Pokemon like Azelf, Cinccino, Mega Absol, Raikou, etc. and each of those Pokemon has the potential to kill Mega Houndoom just as easily as it can kill them. But a 50/50 chance isn't exactly the most reliable outcome, especially assuming a worst-case scenario (You'll notice I'll tend to do this a lot) where it's already set up and in a position to threaten your entire team. So given that it's not only fast but hard to switch into and outright wall, revenge killing it with something faster will often be a common resort to getting rid of Houndoom. But letting something die just to get rid of it every time isn't gonna be much of any complaint to the Houndoom player, so...yeah.
3. Remember that blanket statement about "Specially Defensive Bulky Waters and Assault Vest users" I made being the main reliable checks to a boosted Mega Houndoom? Well now imagine you sent in your AV Snorlax/Slowking/lolEmboar/whatever on it just after it decides to go for a Fire Blast or Nasty Plot or whatever. Just as you're about to kill it, bam! Destiny Bond happens, and your AV Snorlax is now dead along with the Houndoom. Now you're missing a Pokemon, and even though Houndoom was able to be dealt with, it still managed to do its job and kill something on your team. This in tandem with point #2 makes it relatively easy for it to get off the Dbond to take something with it.
4. Hydreigon was able to comfortably switch in on Mega Houndoom and deal some serious damage to it or whatever incoming Pokemon the opponent switched to, or even gain momentum with U-turn in anticipation of this. Crawdaunt could just Aqua Jet Mega Houndoom's face, and IF YOU ABSOLUTELY NEEDED TO, were able to switch a healthy Crawdaunt in on an unboosted Houndoom with relative success, if only just once. With both of them gone, its presence in UU is going to be felt a bit more strongly than before, and with all the aforementioned things it has going on for it in one, Mega Houndoom's definitely going to be a force to be reckoned with, if it wasn't before.
But of course though, I could be tripping. Everything has flaws, and Houndoom has plenty of them on its own... You could just switch your scarfer in on a predicted Nasty Plot. Or it might be bulky enough to take an unboosted Fire Blast/Dark Pulse and strike back. Or you could have Sticky Web up, which kinda just ruins Houndoom's existence badly...A Stealth Rock weakness didn't exactly make it easy to sweep, and even with the increase in bulk upon Mega Evolution, Mega Houndoom's still relatively frail, and its defensive typing lends it to a few exploitable weaknesses. With offensive pressure you might not even let it have a chance to set up. Shoot, your opponent might just set up to +4, kill one Pokemon, and then have to switch back in later on Stealth Rock just because you had something to outpace it. Fire Blast could miss, Dark Pulse might not get that much-needed flinch hax, and prankster Toxic/Thunder Wave certainly cripple it too. All plausible reasons to assume Mega Houndoom's able to be dealt with, and I'm sure you could think up more.
But the entire point of this ridiculously longwinded post is that yeah I think Mega Houndoom's pretty broken, lol. AT LEAST on paper, if not in practice. And let's be real...it was kinda broken in practice, too. Kinda.
tl;dr: Mega Houndoom's got a lot of potential to sweep between incredible speed, great offensive typing, Nasty Plot, and Destiny Bond to remove defensive threats that try to stop it short. Even though Mega houndoom's got just as many exploitable flaws, that shouldn't make it anything less than a massive threat to this UU metagame, especially with fewer checks than it had before.
Starmie is another offensive check. Outspeeds and OHKOs before it can Mega Evolve, ties it afterwards and threatens an OHKO with Hydro Pump, or outspeed with Choice Scarf and OHKO with Hydro Pump. Meanwhile, Mega Houndoom cannot OHKO with Sucker Punch without investment.
4 Atk Mega Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 182-216 (69.7 - 82.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
Also Mega Houndoom will pretty much never run Sucker Punch. You can only switch in on Nasty Plot or a Fire-move, but that shouldn't be too difficult to draw out.
4 Atk Mega Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 182-216 (69.7 - 82.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
Also Mega Houndoom will pretty much never run Sucker Punch. You can only switch in on Nasty Plot or a Fire-move, but that shouldn't be too difficult to draw out.
Yeah, I thought Liepard should be lowered on the list, too, even before Swagger's banning. However, quoting Punchshroom, Liepard's niche is different than just SwagPlay.
"Liepard's actual niche is Prankster Encore + U-turn, a niche it shares with Whimsicott, except it trades Whimsicott's better defensive typing for greater offensive presence in STAB Foul Play. SwagPlay never made a Pokemon better (ex: Sableye), it was just another option it could use, but it doesn't impact its overall ranking."
While this does give Liepard some viability, I'm not sure I see it giving it B rank. I personally feel Liepard would be best in C- Rank due to it's extremely niche moveset that most teams find better filled by Whimsicott.
If you have to include Emboar, you might as well mention Thick Fat Hariyama lol.
On a more serious note, Sp.Def Unaware Quagsire will be a good check to Nasty Plot sets that doesn't pack HP Grass as Mega Houndoom's STABs at most 3HKOs Quagsire, while its univested EQ 2HKOs. It can play around Destiny Bond with Toxic or Recover or simply Haze away its Nasty Plots, allowing your Scarfer to safely switch-in. However, it will never check SunnyBeam MegaDoom although that is largely inferior to Nasty Plot sets. You must also scout for HP Grass as MegaDoom outspeeds and 2HKOs, although you will still get a chance to haze away its boosts or chip away hefty chunk of health to MegaDoom through EQ. Last but not least since Quagsire is outsped it is prone to Dark Pulse flinches, which could lead to you unable to do anything back.
Feraligatr and kabutops can take it down with aqua jet after stealth rock and are both capable of switching on fire blast if needed, sharpedo can setup a protect and then outspeed and kill doom next turn, poliwrath is a massively underrated mon that can deal with doom pretty well, sp def hippowdon can take even a boosted fire blast and ko back with earthquake, snorlax is self explanatory, aero and torn-t can easily revenge kill with edge and superpower, many scarf users such as heracross, darmanitan and flygon can revenge kill it confortably, sp def zygarde walls it even after a boost (LOL), blastoise can beat it even after a boost, stealth rocks are always a pain and honestly as long as you dont let it setup there are quite a lot of things capable of taking it down 1v1, even nidoking can survive a fire blast. Also destiny bond is a really lame argument because there are many situations where sacrificing houndoom can be detrimental to your team if you still need it to deal with another threat and destiny bond itself can be played around.
You will have to face the possiblity of Houndoom getting in safely either by hazzards control or wish passing, which occurs after Rocks damage, at which point Aqua Jet might not kill. +2 HP Grass will murder all of the Kabutops, Feraligatr and Blastoise so those are not counters. If Houndoom doesn't pack HP Grass thesr are all taken care by Destiny Bond. And Destiny Bond is in no way an irrelevant arguement - congrats, you have destroyed their wallbreaker with your SpDef Hippowdon or Sharpedo - oh wait, here down goes your wall or revenge killer too. Maybe that is good time for the opposing to sweep now that you wall is down or you have no way to take care of their sweeper.
''Feraligatr and kabutops can take it down with aqua jet'' ''are both capable of switching on fire blast'' I never said they were counters.
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise: 246-290 (67.9 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Nope.
Destiny bond is not a free kill as it can be played around and will not always be benefitial. Who's to say that your opponent is going to be swept just because you killed one of their pokemon? What if they have other walls? What if their revenge killers are still alive? What if you still need houndoom alive to deal with a specific threat?
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Speed_Boost_(Ability) This is what sharpedo is going to do after protect.
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise: 246-290 (67.9 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Nope.
Destiny bond is not a free kill as it can be played around and will not always be benefitial. Who's to say that your opponent is going to be swept just because you killed one of their pokemon? What if they have other walls? What if their revenge killers are still alive? What if you still need houndoom alive to deal with a specific threat?
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Speed_Boost_(Ability) This is what sharpedo is going to do after protect.
Not disagreeing with any of it, but if you're running Feraligatr and Kabutops in UU just specifically for Mega Houndoom then I'm gonna say that just testifies more to my argument, lol. But let's hit up some calcs...
Feraligatr:
252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 174-211 (59.5 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Houndoom isn't even OHKOed by Aqua Jet after Stealth Rock. Meanwhile...
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 162-192 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Feraligatr switches in on Dark Pulse and it's done. So without a layer of Spikes or a boost on Feraligatr's end, this is kind of a shaky check at best. Predicting with HP Grass isn't even needed in this instance. Meanwhile, if Gatr switches in on Fire Blast after Rocks, Dark Pulse has a pretty good chance of finishing the job.
Mega Houndoom isn't even OHKOed by Aqua Jet after Stealth Rock. Meanwhile...
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 162-192 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Feraligatr switches in on Dark Pulse and it's done. So without a layer of Spikes or a boost on Feraligatr's end, this is kind of a shaky check at best. Predicting with HP Grass isn't even needed in this instance. Meanwhile, if Gatr switches in on Fire Blast after Rocks, Dark Pulse has a pretty good chance of finishing the job.
Kabutops:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 190-226 (65 - 77.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Not even a reliable chance to OHKO after Stealth Rocks. But there's still more:
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 63-75 (24 - 28.6%) -- 98.2% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 186-219 (70.9 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Basically, unless Houndoom misses, Kabutops can't even switch in on Fire Blast safely because Dark Pulse has a high chance to take off the rest of its HP afterwards. And this isn't even factoring the possibility of predicting with HP Grass
Not even a reliable chance to OHKO after Stealth Rocks. But there's still more:
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 63-75 (24 - 28.6%) -- 98.2% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 186-219 (70.9 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Basically, unless Houndoom misses, Kabutops can't even switch in on Fire Blast safely because Dark Pulse has a high chance to take off the rest of its HP afterwards. And this isn't even factoring the possibility of predicting with HP Grass
Poliwrath's cool and I actually like it a lot, but it has a somewhat thin niche in UU outside of checking Houndoom. And even then, +2 HP Grass has a high chance to OHKO. And even if you don't run HP Grass, Destiny Bond is still a thing.
SpD Hippowdon and Zygarde, I'll give you those. Those are solid checks to it. However though Zygarde doesn't OHKO with Earthquake if Houndoom's at full HP, and a +2 Dark Pulse 2HKOes it. If you got SR or Extreme Speed, then you have nothing to worry about, but it's worth mentioning. Most of the time though Zygarde would come out on top.
Snorlax is self explanatory, and probably my favorite check to Houndoom but Destiny Bond is still a thing brah. Aerodactyl, Tornadus, Sharpedo/Yanmega, and Scarfers I mentioned in my initial post, I was focusing more on the fact only a handful of mons reliably can outrun it without needing Speed Boost or a Choice Scarf.
Mega Blastoise is a solid check and one I didn't think about, but I'll go back to Destiny Bond. Of course though a Houndoom isn't gonna have Nasty Plot, HP Grass, and Destiny Bond all on the same set nor am I gonna act like it will be able to destroy every single check through a combination of these moves. But I can say that with HP Grass or Destiny Bond it is able to get past (or rid of) some of its checks in one way or another. So that's not really much of a lame argument. The idea is you want to stop Houndoom with little cost to yourself as possible. If something still dies, it might hurt you in the long run.
...Oh yeah, and Nidoking is almost OHKOed by an unboosted Fire Blast. He switches in on it, he's dying immediately after. Switches in on a Nasty Plot and +2 Dark Pulse is frying it. Unless you mean Scarf Nidoking, of course.
Feraligatr and kabutops are two mons that happen to work on a metagame full of fire spam thanks to stab aqua jet and the sweeping potential of swords dance, they were just overshadowed by the now BL crawdaunt. Its true that the former will need a little more prior damage than just stealth rock but houndoom isnt exactly the easiest pokemon to keep healthy anyway. The point is both offensive and defensive teams have several options to deal with houndoom, and doom can only really get past most of them by killing itself which again, will not always automatically open up a path for another sweeper.
I think that we can all say destiny bond is a thing on Mega Houndoom, but I don't think destiny bond can be used as justification for argument of determining a counter or check, because anything can be dstiny bonded it just doesn't make alot of sense imo.
I don't know why we are discussing Mega Houndoom whether mega Houndoom is broken or not. This thread is about how viable it is and it is easily S rank IMO.
One Pokemon in B- I am confused about is Articuno. What exactly makes it even good enough to be in B-? It has a terrible typing which makes it incredibly weak to SR and other common attacking types like Electric and fire, a somewhat barren movepool and although it has good stats (being a legendary and all), its typing doesn't allow it to use them effectively.
Granted, it has excellent STABs to use but like I said, it doesn't have the stats to back them up.
I just don't think it should be in the same rank as Pokemon like Cresselia, Uxie, Rhyperior and Venomoth (which should be moved up btw).
One Pokemon in B- I am confused about is Articuno. What exactly makes it even good enough to be in B-? It has a terrible typing which makes it incredibly weak to SR and other common attacking types like Electric and fire, a somewhat barren movepool and although it has good stats (being a legendary and all), its typing doesn't allow it to use them effectively.
Granted, it has excellent STABs to use but like I said, it doesn't have the stats to back them up.
I just don't think it should be in the same rank as Pokemon like Cresselia, Uxie, Rhyperior and Venomoth (which should be moved up btw).
articuno is B- because a mysterious player used it and got to the second place in the ladder, in the earlier stages of the metagame. i used it though, and i must say that the combination of freeze dry + toxic + defog + incredible special defense + pressure were incredible. it was a brilliant counter for the dragons. however, i recommend moving it to C/C- now that they're gone.
The thing is that most things don't have Destiny Bond, and it definately needs to be considered. The fact of the matter is that any check that is slower than Houndoom and doesn't carry priority, has to face the very real chance that the best it will be able to do is trade with it.
For M-Gengar in example, Destiny Bond was a big part of the reason why it got banned out of OU. Now, Gengar having Shadow Tag does make Destiny Bond much, much deadlier, but you can't ignore Destiny Bond when considering checks and counters for M-Hound.
Its 4x SR weakness is no longer as terrible as it used to be (we have several 4x SR weak mons under A and S-rank in OU and ubers after all) and when you look past that you have a pokemon with excellent special bulk, amazing support movepool (Rain Dance, Roost, Heal Bell, Tailwind,
Finally it has good synergy in a rain team thanks to its STAB Hurricane and access to Rain Dance.
It's a pokemon that on paper looks unusable but in practice works much better than you might expect. Give it a try.
Edit: a few interesting calculations...
Vs Mega Blastoise
252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 126-148 (32.8 - 38.5%) -- 4.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise: 128-152 (35.3 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Articuno is faster and has Roost, so it hard counters Mega Blastoise.
Vs Suicune
+1 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 75-88 (19.5 - 22.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 195-231 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Articuno always beats Suicune 1 on 1 as long as it runs Haze, thanks to Pressure stalling and Freeze Dry.
Roar is overall more useful, but with Haze Articuno will win even in a last pokemon scenario.
If Articuno is running an offensive set
252+ SpA Life Orb Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 237-281 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Swampert
0 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 316-376 (78.2 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Cloyster
0 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 135-160 (55.7 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Of course Cloyster OHKO's back with Rock Blast but the point of this is to show that Cloyster can't switch on Articuno and use it as setup bait anymore.
Vs Slowbro
4 SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 100-118 (26 - 30.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 174-206 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Articuno needs some Spa investiment in order to comfortably 2HKO Slowbro (non-AV variants) but it still has the advantage thanks to Pressure and Heal Bell.
This isn't an issue if it runs an offensive set
252+ SpA Life Orb Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 320-377 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Articuno: 132-156 (40.9 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Vs Starmie
0 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 168-198 (64.3 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 133-159 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- 64.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Vaporeon
Defensive sets fail to 2HKO but offensive sets can easily do that
252+ SpA Life Orb Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 276-328 (59.4 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Tentacruel
4 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 126-150 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- 65.8% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Basically Articuno is one of the best counters to water types in the tier. If your team has issues with them and you have reliable spin/defog support, there is no reason not to consider Articuno for a team slot.
Here's a replay with a specially defensive Articuno: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-101776344
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What really would be the 'optimal' Articuno set? I feel like giving this thing a whirl and seeing how it holds up. The calcs the guy above me posted are of interest, but I still kinda question Articuno's defensive capabilities if SR is up. I mean yeah, OU does have mons like Charizard and Volcarona listed high in the viability ranks, but that's due to the fact the former can be one of either a setup sweeper with a godly offensive typing, or a wallbreaker who deals incredible damage while setting sun. The other is a sweeper who has one of the best setup moves in the game, Quiver Dance. When you take that in consideration and then look at Articuno, you can kinda see why people would be put off by its high ranking...Doesn't have a lot to show for up front aside from Freeze-Dry, Defog, Pressure, and its good bulk. Not saying it sucks but I can sympathize with why many would be curious at it being at such a high rank in viability off just 1 person using it.
But Articuno was my fave legendary bird since Gen 1, and I'm definitely gonna play around and see what works with it. SpD sounds interesting, and even an offensive/Specs set for lols could be tried. I've used weirder stuff before but I definitely need to see it in practice myself.
Articuno4ResearchWeek#6
But Articuno was my fave legendary bird since Gen 1, and I'm definitely gonna play around and see what works with it. SpD sounds interesting, and even an offensive/Specs set for lols could be tried. I've used weirder stuff before but I definitely need to see it in practice myself.
Nominating Hariyama for A- rank.
After testing Hariyama extensively I have found that it completely outclasses Machamp as an assault vest user. With a spread of 252Atk, 84Def and 172 Sdef Hariyama possess slightly more bulk slightly than Machamp and yes while the difference is not staggering and Machamp still possess more attack than Hariyama the beauty of Hariyama is that it is incredibly versatile.
Unlike Machamp who has to run no guard to actually have a niche in the metagame, Hariyama can opt to use anyone of it's great abilities to get the jump on opponents. If you feel to take on a more defensive role you can run thick fat allowing Haryima to hard counter kyurem or you can choose to run sheer force alongside the elemental punches giving you great and powerful coverage, however the best ability to use in my opinion is guts. Running guts on assault vest Hariyama allows it to reliably deal with defensive pokemon like Jellicent and specially defensive mew pokemon machamp cannot deal as it fears will o wisp it also allows it to act as a status absorber.
All in all, with its effective bulk great movepool and and even greater abilities Hariyama is a pokemon that is vastly underestimated, its usefulness lies in it versatility which makes it a very unpredictable pokemon compared to most of the other pokemon in the tier that are only able to run one effective set, so it it for this reason and the fact that it clearly outclasses Machamp why I believe it should be moved up to the A- rank
After testing Hariyama extensively I have found that it completely outclasses Machamp as an assault vest user. With a spread of 252Atk, 84Def and 172 Sdef Hariyama possess slightly more bulk slightly than Machamp and yes while the difference is not staggering and Machamp still possess more attack than Hariyama the beauty of Hariyama is that it is incredibly versatile.
Unlike Machamp who has to run no guard to actually have a niche in the metagame, Hariyama can opt to use anyone of it's great abilities to get the jump on opponents. If you feel to take on a more defensive role you can run thick fat allowing Haryima to hard counter kyurem or you can choose to run sheer force alongside the elemental punches giving you great and powerful coverage, however the best ability to use in my opinion is guts. Running guts on assault vest Hariyama allows it to reliably deal with defensive pokemon like Jellicent and specially defensive mew pokemon machamp cannot deal as it fears will o wisp it also allows it to act as a status absorber.
All in all, with its effective bulk great movepool and and even greater abilities Hariyama is a pokemon that is vastly underestimated, its usefulness lies in it versatility which makes it a very unpredictable pokemon compared to most of the other pokemon in the tier that are only able to run one effective set, so it it for this reason and the fact that it clearly outclasses Machamp why I believe it should be moved up to the A- rank
hariyama still stuggles to get though Hippowdon, Slowbro and Tangrowth, the prossibly greatest physical walls in the tier. Close combat (stronger than ice punch) cant garantie to 2HKO tangrowth, Thunder punch cant 2HKO slowbro, and knock off will not OHKO, so slowbro can switch out and be perfectly fine thanks to regenerator. I calced this while using guts boosted 252+ hariyama.
I think it is closer to B- since it cannot break the main physical walls in the tier and it is painfuly slow. Close combat and Toxic/Burn damage is a living hell for it aswell, as it becomes easy to revenge kill after only one stat drop.
Neither can Machamp, which possess less bulk fears a scald burn from slowbrow and apart from knock off it cannot run any of the listed effectively. I'm not really focusing on damage output I am just simply highlighting the fact that Hariyama runs an overall better assault vest set than Machamp, its stab is stronger, it has better bulk, better abilities, can run other sets, is unpredictable and does not completely rely on luck. Machamp's role as an assault vest user is honestly just outclassed.
Machamp has No Guard which makes moves such as Stone Edge and Dynamic Punch perfectly viable though.
Hariyamas Stab might be stronger, but it can much easier be revenge killed than machamp, and Machamps annoying Dynamic punch is better than Close combat because it does not give you stat drops. Also:
252 SpA Azelf Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 218-260 (56.7 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Azelf Psychic vs. 0 HP / 172 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 228-270 (53.1 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The difference is so small that is will at most times not matter. Machamp also get Guts, and can do it alot better than Hariyama with its higher attack (and their move pull is almost the same) I think that Machamp should be put down to B/B+ , But hariyama does not fit in A-.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
Both machamp and Hariyama fall under this description, but bullshit punch from Machamp is still better than hariyamas CC.
I was talking about the elemental punches.
I have not yet found an optimal spread for assault vest Hariyama but it can run 252atk, 252Sdef 4HP offering it better bulk than Machamp
252 SpA Azelf Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 326-386 (84.8 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Azelf Psychic vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 206-246 (48 - 57.3%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO
I agree Machamp does not belong in A-. In my opinion ranking a pokemon so high when its only effective set relies so much on luck is a mistake, however I still beliveve Hariyama completely outclasses Machamp and should at least be a rank or two above it.
Can anyone link me to the part where vaporeon got discussed and ranked? I'm just curious as to why it is where it is. I want to read up on the arguments before making any nominations otherwise (ofc, I may just leave it where it is).
Reasons why I like vaporeon
1. Hard counters the vast majority of bulky waters, esp suicune, easily swaps into everything and can either nab a free wishpass (wish + slow BP) or phaze it out if it's trying to setup. Does not suffer scald burns which separates it from other bulky water counters. Depending on the bulky water in question, can do this many times throughout the match.
2. Scald is a wonderful move, and it has the stats to use it well.
3. The only bulky water with wish pass, and the wish passes are among the fattest in the tier.
4. Roar stops it from being total setup bait.
Reasons why vaporeon prolly isn't top tier
1. Roar requires taking a hit, which kinda sucks
2. No reliable recovery, unless you like wasting an ultra valuable moveslot on protect (vap has better things to do, like heal belling and phazing)
3. Jellicent prolly has better defensive typing, while Suicune has more offensive presence.
Lemme know if I missed anything, or just link me to the previous arguments on vaporeon, I want to weigh in on this, but I want to do so intelligently.
Reasons why I like vaporeon
1. Hard counters the vast majority of bulky waters, esp suicune, easily swaps into everything and can either nab a free wishpass (wish + slow BP) or phaze it out if it's trying to setup. Does not suffer scald burns which separates it from other bulky water counters. Depending on the bulky water in question, can do this many times throughout the match.
2. Scald is a wonderful move, and it has the stats to use it well.
3. The only bulky water with wish pass, and the wish passes are among the fattest in the tier.
4. Roar stops it from being total setup bait.
Reasons why vaporeon prolly isn't top tier
1. Roar requires taking a hit, which kinda sucks
2. No reliable recovery, unless you like wasting an ultra valuable moveslot on protect (vap has better things to do, like heal belling and phazing)
3. Jellicent prolly has better defensive typing, while Suicune has more offensive presence.
Lemme know if I missed anything, or just link me to the previous arguments on vaporeon, I want to weigh in on this, but I want to do so intelligently.
- Status