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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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Shedinja is D Rank, what possible use could it have in the metagame?
I feel like the lower ranks are so disordered currently that there isn't very much point in discussing them. I believe we should do the rank by rank system that the OU viability thread did, where we can sort out just two sub-ranks at a time. This will focus the discussion more, instead of just having random discussion here and there on Pokemon people bring up. I can see many B+/- Pokemon that could be moved around, but no discussion will ever happen on them until we focus the discussion more on specific sub-ranks. The discussion has somewhat slowed down lately anyways.
Also, I'd like to propose moving M-Absol up to A+ rank. M-Absol is a very underrated threat in the UU meta currently. It's fantastic coverage and very useful priority in Sucker Punch allows it to be an excellent late-game cleaner, and if it is able to set up a Swords Dance, it can plow through many teams. It also offers highly useful utility through Magic Bounce and the ability to Pursuit trap threats such as Mew, Victini, and Chandelure. With its unchanged paper-thin defences, you would think that it is highly difficult for M-Absol to set up a Swords Dance. However, with Magic Bounce, M-Absol can set up on literally any defensive or utility Pokemon. Also, I am unsure whether this is a glitch or not, but on PS, M-Absol's Magic Bounce activates on the same turn as mega evolving. This is a huge plus for M-Absol. As we all know, M-Absol still retains it's slow speed on the turn of evolving, which is unfortunate. However, I believe that M-Absol definitely deserves the ranking of A+.
TL;DR: M-Absol, propose A+ rank, good coverage, useful priority, Pursuit trapping, Magic Bounce on turn of evolving. However, paper-thin defences, speed on turn of evolving.
Also, I'd like to propose moving M-Absol up to A+ rank. M-Absol is a very underrated threat in the UU meta currently. It's fantastic coverage and very useful priority in Sucker Punch allows it to be an excellent late-game cleaner, and if it is able to set up a Swords Dance, it can plow through many teams. It also offers highly useful utility through Magic Bounce and the ability to Pursuit trap threats such as Mew, Victini, and Chandelure. With its unchanged paper-thin defences, you would think that it is highly difficult for M-Absol to set up a Swords Dance. However, with Magic Bounce, M-Absol can set up on literally any defensive or utility Pokemon. Also, I am unsure whether this is a glitch or not, but on PS, M-Absol's Magic Bounce activates on the same turn as mega evolving. This is a huge plus for M-Absol. As we all know, M-Absol still retains it's slow speed on the turn of evolving, which is unfortunate. However, I believe that M-Absol definitely deserves the ranking of A+.
TL;DR: M-Absol, propose A+ rank, good coverage, useful priority, Pursuit trapping, Magic Bounce on turn of evolving. However, paper-thin defences, speed on turn of evolving.
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Full list of A/S rank offensive pokes stopped by shedinja (using standard sets)
Nidoking and Nidoking (without Shadow ball or fire blast)
Suicune
Metagross
Starmie
Azelf (without fire punch/Blast)
Mega-Ampharos
Roserade (without HP fire)¨
Kyurem
Celebi
Suicune
Metagross
Starmie
Azelf (without fire punch/Blast)
Mega-Ampharos
Roserade (without HP fire)¨
Kyurem
Celebi
EDIT: look below at the comment by Flnncent1
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Doesn't Cloyster run Rock Blast?
Magic Bounce working on the turn you Mega Evolve is not a bug. The reason Prankster does not work is because turn order is decided before the turn happens, as in before Banette can boost the priority of its moves. Magic Bounce, Intimidate, Filter, and pretty much every other Ability are not so time-sensitive.
I don't know if I agree with A+, though. Absol doesn't have an easy time with the current metagame. He's powerful, but too frail to deal with so many bulky threats.
On the subject of Heracross hitting A+, who else has tried Flame Orb?
I don't know if I agree with A+, though. Absol doesn't have an easy time with the current metagame. He's powerful, but too frail to deal with so many bulky threats.
On the subject of Heracross hitting A+, who else has tried Flame Orb?
It'd do a better job of walling them if it didn't immediately die from any amount of hazards damage. Shedinja is awful and it should be unranked, there's much better and more reliable options for all of those.
There is a reason to why I told you to look at Flnncent1's comment (Yea my grammar sucks but whatever) Shedinja is a meh niche pokemon, Thats why it is ranked as D rank
As a guy who has a habit of overestimating the usefulness and viability of pokemon, I actually agree with doublade and sheddy. Doublade has some decent physical bulk with his massive 150 defense and eviolite, but almost every viable physical attacker atm runs knock off, which not only hits for SE damage but also get's rid of eviolite, turning him into a 58/150 mon with no reliable recovery. Not bad by any means but far from good. As for offense, 110 attack just is not what it used to be. It gets gyro ball and the low speed to abuse it, but that's it for high powered moves. I'd feel better about it's offenses if it got head smash or something for a fourth move, but it doesn't. You might get some mileage from it on a TR team, but even there it lacks the raw power to muscle past the tier like other TR sweepers can. As for sheddy, it would be a cool mon if it weren't for the sheer number of things it auto-died to, including sandstorm, hail, any hazard besides sticky web, almost any status condition, pretty much everything that magic guard nullifies in exchange for some decent synergy with focus sash. Not worth it at all.
*edit*
also, seconding the nomination for Amolamola for B/B+ rank (seriously, why was that thing NU last gen?) and Cress for B rank.
The reason why I think amolamola > cress atm is simply due to the UU meta. ATM, the tier is dominated by volt-turn and hard hitting phys threats like Darm and Hera. Amolamola is much less item dependent then cress due to regenerator (meaning it can tank knock offs without much problem) and has some phenominal phys bulk, allowing it to take fighting and fire STABs quite well and can tank u-turns all day long. Cress, while a very good pokemon, tends to have much more negetive matchups against voltturn due to being worn down by repeated u-turns into strong wall breakers like banded darm/vicinti.
*edit*
also, seconding the nomination for Amolamola for B/B+ rank (seriously, why was that thing NU last gen?) and Cress for B rank.
The reason why I think amolamola > cress atm is simply due to the UU meta. ATM, the tier is dominated by volt-turn and hard hitting phys threats like Darm and Hera. Amolamola is much less item dependent then cress due to regenerator (meaning it can tank knock offs without much problem) and has some phenominal phys bulk, allowing it to take fighting and fire STABs quite well and can tank u-turns all day long. Cress, while a very good pokemon, tends to have much more negetive matchups against voltturn due to being worn down by repeated u-turns into strong wall breakers like banded darm/vicinti.
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I had a Shedinja + Zoroark team in the top 10 of the ladder, altho it's currently sitting in the mid 70s due to me not playing. This strategy is a lot more viable in UU than OU because the two are relatively stronger compared to the average UU poke than OU.
Just looking at another team I have, Shedinja walls half of it (Suicune + Celebi + Nidoking without a fire move), and of the remaining 3 he can take a hit from two of them using his focus sash to get off a crucial attack or burn. Requires a ton of support of course but makes for very fun games.
Because it's essentially harmless and lack phazing. I only played a fair bit of NU, but to me, encountering Alomomola meant three things: a full stop to physical attackers, risk of getting Toxic'd, and that the opponent would use the opportunity to Wish a wounded teammate. Now, Alomomola is pretty much unrivaled in the latter aspect, as only Blissey can pass larger Wishes, but Alomomola also has Regenerator to patch itself up when it switches to a teammate. It's the former two that raise some concerns.
It can stop physical attackers in the their tracks, yes, but if they were to start setting up, it would spell out trouble. Since it can neither phaze or Haze them, the only thing it can use to force them out is to let the Toxic counter do its work ...... and that takes time. It also means that Poison and Steel types are completely unaffected by it, and that anything with a Substitute can thwart its tactics (particularly as it's not much of a hard hitter). Like any other wall, Taunt also shuts it down, although Knock Off, Icy Wind, and Scald can provide some utility, while a timely used Magic Coat can circumvent the issue entirely. I'm genuinely happy that it sees usage in UU as it's definitely a mon that has a clear niche that any team could appreciate, but at the same time, it's not TOO surprising that it managed to end up in NU either.
tl:dr - Alomomola can block you, but never threaten you.
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Bummer yeah, I can see what you mean by a weakness to setup sweepers. It's main forms of "convincing" physical attackers to not stay in and whack it some more comes in the form crippleing the attacker with knock off or scald burns. Setup can easily bypass the former and can often overcome the latter. However, I question the ability of common setup sweepers to take scalds, even uninvested.
*pulls up alomalola's stats*
uhhhhhh, ignore that last part... Alomalola's not threatening anything (it may be able to out duel weavile if it gets a scald burn, but that should impress a grand total of no one)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 109-130 (20.4 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 49-58 (17.3 - 20.5%) -- possible 5HKO
That being said, remember all the walls we talked about that would be really cool if they had reliable recovery (like granbull and cress) but don't? Amomo could be an awesome support for those walls. Nobody is questioning the ability of these folks to come in and take one hit, even under the worst conditions, but they get worn down easily. Sure Cress can come in on megastoise and take multiple dark pulses, but she can't do that forever and eventually gets worn down. Well, amomo could be a natural pairing for these types of walls, as these walls don't need to fear getting KO'd upon receiving the wish like a lot of offensive threats do. Amomo could also be a really good support on BO teams, who frequently lack recovery or don't have room to run it otherwise.
*pulls up alomalola's stats*
uhhhhhh, ignore that last part... Alomalola's not threatening anything (it may be able to out duel weavile if it gets a scald burn, but that should impress a grand total of no one)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 109-130 (20.4 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 49-58 (17.3 - 20.5%) -- possible 5HKO
That being said, remember all the walls we talked about that would be really cool if they had reliable recovery (like granbull and cress) but don't? Amomo could be an awesome support for those walls. Nobody is questioning the ability of these folks to come in and take one hit, even under the worst conditions, but they get worn down easily. Sure Cress can come in on megastoise and take multiple dark pulses, but she can't do that forever and eventually gets worn down. Well, amomo could be a natural pairing for these types of walls, as these walls don't need to fear getting KO'd upon receiving the wish like a lot of offensive threats do. Amomo could also be a really good support on BO teams, who frequently lack recovery or don't have room to run it otherwise.
Cress has Moonlight, and that counts as Reliable recovery (despite small PP and the weather shit)
The only weather setters in UU are Hippowdon and Abomasnow, Hippowdon will probably move up to OU and sometimes it uses sanf force instead of sand stream. Abomasnow is a pretty rare sight in RU so i'd say moonlight now counts as a reliable healing method.
I dont see hippowdon moving up unless Usage changes, and Mega-Abomasnow might be Rare in UU (It is somewhat common in RU) but it is still good given the right support. Also Manual rain is a thing (Espesially with Kaputops and Ludicolo sitting in the tier).
Yellow Cheese ok, yes it has moonlight. 8 PP still really stinks and for the time being, hippo is a top tier defensive threat in UU and therefore needs to be considered. The low PP essentially means that cress can be outstalled by almost any defensive mon (esp hippo), and mola helps a lot with fixing that weakness. That being said, perhaps sp defensive umbreon would be a better example, who also has heal bell and a few other decent support options (wish + baton pass anyone?), but usually requires a moveslot for protect. Running amomo with umbreon could allow umb to forgo protect for BP or heal bell. It even has foul play to check setup sweeps, which momo is weak to.
I'm sure that there are others, but I can't think of them. Maybe a phazer of some sort? For some reason I cannot think of a sp defensive phazer to pair up with momo besides vaporeon, which is a bad idea for several reasons.
I'm sure that there are others, but I can't think of them. Maybe a phazer of some sort? For some reason I cannot think of a sp defensive phazer to pair up with momo besides vaporeon, which is a bad idea for several reasons.
In March Hippowdon was OU. But, we have to wait till June for tiers to change. But I think it's very likely to move up.
Also, Weavile should be removed from the list :'(, and Klefki should probably be added to S.
yesss, yeeeessss, remove the mons that I cannot safely lead against with my CB ninjask...
in other news, the removal of weavile is going to make life for many psychics of all stripes a lot easier, but especially the defensive ones. The reason why weavile's knock off was special is that not only did it remove lefties, it hits pretty friggen hard, especially on an SE hit. A particularly big winner I want to talk about is Jirachi. Weavile was a massive threat to non-scarfed Jirachis due to being able to easily outspeed and destroy offensive jirachis (knock off has a high chance of outright killing 252 hp/0 def jirachi) and easily 2hkos all defensive sets.
Also, does Liapard even have a niche in UU without swagger? I feel like sableye and klefkei now outclass it in pretty much every way imaginable as pranksters.
Liepard's niche is Prankster Encore + U-turn, which totally steals momentum away from opponents who think they got a free setup turn on you (granted, Whimsicott also does this, and provides better defensive support / synergy than Liepard does offensive support). Swagger was never anything's niche :P
Hello. I'll keep this brief, because it's late.
Kabutops for B+ Rank (currently unranked).
I've been fooling around with an HO rain team lately, and I can't pour enough praise onto Kabutops. He really is a phenomenal pokemon, and the damage he dishes out in the rain with a Life Orb is just insane. Moreover, he got a bit of a buff in sixth gen due to the Knock Off Buff. His movepool is incredibly diverse, with the option of Waterfall and Stone Edge for very strong stabs, Knock Off and Superpower for coverage and utility, SD for insane power, and Aqua Jet for some crazy strong priority. To get an idea of how unstoppable Kabutops can be -
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 374-442 (94.9 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron in Rain: 243-289 (70.6 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 762-897 (204.8 - 241.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 308-363 (82.7 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 281-331 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With only a little bit of prior support, Kabutops can easily sweep through teams under the rain. Swift Swim raises his speed to a whopping 518, allowing him to outspeed almost everything in the entire tier. And he does shitloads of damage. He is rather niche, but he can also run SR and Rapid spin on normal teams iirc.
Kabutops for B+ Rank (currently unranked).
I've been fooling around with an HO rain team lately, and I can't pour enough praise onto Kabutops. He really is a phenomenal pokemon, and the damage he dishes out in the rain with a Life Orb is just insane. Moreover, he got a bit of a buff in sixth gen due to the Knock Off Buff. His movepool is incredibly diverse, with the option of Waterfall and Stone Edge for very strong stabs, Knock Off and Superpower for coverage and utility, SD for insane power, and Aqua Jet for some crazy strong priority. To get an idea of how unstoppable Kabutops can be -
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 374-442 (94.9 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron in Rain: 243-289 (70.6 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 762-897 (204.8 - 241.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 308-363 (82.7 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 281-331 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With only a little bit of prior support, Kabutops can easily sweep through teams under the rain. Swift Swim raises his speed to a whopping 518, allowing him to outspeed almost everything in the entire tier. And he does shitloads of damage. He is rather niche, but he can also run SR and Rapid spin on normal teams iirc.
It was unbanned.
Moved Nidoking up to A+ rank.
Moved Mienshao down to A+ rank.
Moved Nidoqueen up to A rank.
Moved Porygon-Z up to A rank.
Moved Celebi down to A- rank.
Moved Cloyster down to A- rank.
Moved Crobat down to A- rank.
Moved Honchkrow up to A+ rank.
Moved Rotom-H up to A- rank.
Moved Snorlax down to A- rank.
Moved Starmie down to A- rank.
Moved Vivillon up to A- rank.
As is obvious, I retooled S to A- rank. These new changes should reflect new sets in the metagame that have emerged, metagame shifts, and additions/removals of Pokemon.
Moved Mienshao down to A+ rank.
Moved Nidoqueen up to A rank.
Moved Porygon-Z up to A rank.
Moved Celebi down to A- rank.
Moved Cloyster down to A- rank.
Moved Crobat down to A- rank.
Moved Honchkrow up to A+ rank.
Moved Rotom-H up to A- rank.
Moved Snorlax down to A- rank.
Moved Starmie down to A- rank.
Moved Vivillon up to A- rank.
As is obvious, I retooled S to A- rank. These new changes should reflect new sets in the metagame that have emerged, metagame shifts, and additions/removals of Pokemon.
Klefki is one of Cloyster's best partners (resists two of its weaknesses, provides Spikes which ensure key KO's and with dual screens it has a much easier time setting up), so I don't understand why it was moved down instead of up. Is it because of Prankster+Thunder Wave? Almost everything hates that.
If anything, Cloyster is more viable now, so it should be moved up to A+ rank.
If anything, Cloyster is more viable now, so it should be moved up to A+ rank.
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