XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

[WebBowser]

Kitten Milk

My issue with +2 rain calcs is that it's really, really hard to get +2 AND rain(I know this from experience). You basically need one turn to setup, one turn to swap to your rain sweeper, and yet a third turn to setup. It's not quite as difficult as trying to NP/SD your way to +6 with (insert NP/SD sweeper here), only because it's not quite as telagraphed (most rain teams have multiple options to abuse rain with), but it still makes life rather difficult.

My calc issues aside, I think he's totally viable. However, is he better then Sharpedo, who has 5 more attack, 15 more speed, speed boost, ice type coverage (ice beam does NOT count) and the ability to maintain his high speed even outside of rain? Kabutops does have higher power coverage moves AND SD going for it, which is great, but he's also very vulnerable to opposing aqua jets, sucker punches, mach punches, and darn near any other priority except e-speed. Sharpedo has typing that allows it to resist most priority(they both die to a strong mach punch), making it very difficult to revenge after just one turn. Another strength that sharpy has is super fast dbonds, allowing him to take his revenge killer with him in many cases.

Sharpedo is currently sitting at B, and I don't see much reason atm for kabutops to be ranked above him.

 

[EonX]

Kabutops: My problem with having Kabutops all the way at B+ is the fact that it absolutely needs rain support to be able to sweep that effectively. Idk why it should be ranked about the best Swift Swim Pokemon in the tier, Kingdra (who currently sits at B) I think Kabutops is more suited for B-/C+ as, unlike Kingdra and Sharpedo who can possibly sweep without rain support, Kabutops will almost always need the rain to have a chance at sweeping. And before it gets asked, yes, I have been toying with rain offense as of late and I almost never have a moment where I wish I had Kabutops over something like Kingdra or even Toxicroak. Remember, there are plenty of options for rain teams right now in UU (Kingdra, Croaker, Omastar, Megatric, Mega-Ampharos, Noivern, and Tornadus to just name a few) and it can be a lot more difficult than you might think to fit Kabutops into one of these teams for this reason.

 

[Limitless]

Moved Sharpedo up to A rank.

 

[effyouzion]

Kabutops: My problem with having Kabutops all the way at B+ is the fact that it absolutely needs rain support to be able to sweep that effectively. Idk why it should be ranked about the best Swift Swim Pokemon in the tier, Kingdra (who currently sits at B) I think Kabutops is more suited for B-/C+ as, unlike Kingdra and Sharpedo who can possibly sweep without rain support, Kabutops will almost always need the rain to have a chance at sweeping. And before it gets asked, yes, I have been toying with rain offense as of late and I almost never have a moment where I wish I had Kabutops over something like Kingdra or even Toxicroak. Remember, there are plenty of options for rain teams right now in UU (Kingdra, Croaker, Omastar, Megatric, Mega-Ampharos, Noivern, and Tornadus to just name a few) and it can be a lot more difficult than you might think to fit Kabutops into one of these teams for this reason.

Kabutops can ditch swords dance for aqua jet, making him one of the few strong priority users in the tier. Very useful to have, even on a rain team.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

Um why would he drop swords dance for aqua jet...

*insert y not both meme here*

 

[Anty]

Um why would he drop swords dance for aqua jet...

*insert y not both meme here*

Because aqua jet makes him useful outside rain. I know last gen ru he was a great sweeper outside rain, but here i dont see he is B+ rank material, it is hard to settup both an sd and rain, and without one he is too weak. He can still spin well so maybe B/B-

 

[effyouzion]

Um why would he drop swords dance for aqua jet...

*insert y not both meme here*

Like everyone else said SD + rain is really hard to get. On the other hand aqua jet can win you a game after your rain setters are down and your opponent thinks all his remaining mons are faster than you.

I like Kabutops more than Kingdra personally but I wouldn't be mad if they had the same rank.

 

[WebBowser]

I find it kinda funny how arguing about Kabutops vs. Sharpedo wound up getting sharpedo moved up to A rank. Not that I'm unhappy or arguing against it, but I just find it an amusing irony.

I'm thinking B-something for Kabutops now. Leaning towards B myself, but without an easy marker to compare to it's kinda hard to place him. The closest analogue I can get is gorebyss, who runs a mean specs set in the rain and also has the option to run a setup set. Kabutops is prolly the better of the two, but I can't really think of a better one to compare him to.

Just in case you want to flame me for mentioning non shell smash gorebyss in a semi-positive manner.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gorebyss Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro in Rain: 199-234 (50.5 - 59.3%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

and that's friggen surf people. Hydro pump is there for folks who really want to muscle past some checks.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro in Rain: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Limitless]

I find it kinda funny how arguing about Kabutops vs. Sharpedo wound up getting sharpedo moved up to A rank. Not that I'm unhappy or arguing against it, but I just find it an amusing irony.

I'm thinking B-something for Kabutops now. Leaning towards B myself, but without an easy marker to compare to it's kinda hard to place him. The closest analogue I can get is gorebyss, who runs a mean specs set in the rain and also has the option to run a setup set. Kabutops is prolly the better of the two, but I can't really think of a better one to compare him to.

Just in case you want to flame me for mentioning non shell smash gorebyss in a semi-positive manner.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gorebyss Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro in Rain: 199-234 (50.5 - 59.3%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

and that's friggen surf people. Hydro pump is there for folks who really want to muscle past some checks.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro in Rain: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Just to be clear, the argument made me notice how low Sharpedo was. Towards the beginning of the metagame, Sharpedo wasn't much of a threat. Now it is. Basically, I just wasn't aware how low I had originally made it.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Kitten Milk

My issue with +2 rain calcs is that it's really, really hard to get +2 AND rain(I know this from experience). You basically need one turn to setup, one turn to swap to your rain sweeper, and yet a third turn to setup. It's not quite as difficult as trying to NP/SD your way to +6 with (insert NP/SD sweeper here), only because it's not quite as telagraphed (most rain teams have multiple options to abuse rain with), but it still makes life rather difficult.

My calc issues aside, I think he's totally viable. However, is he better then Sharpedo, who has 5 more attack, 15 more speed, speed boost, ice type coverage (ice beam does NOT count) and the ability to maintain his high speed even outside of rain? Kabutops does have higher power coverage moves AND SD going for it, which is great, but he's also very vulnerable to opposing aqua jets, sucker punches, mach punches, and darn near any other priority except e-speed. Sharpedo has typing that allows it to resist most priority(they both die to a strong mach punch), making it very difficult to revenge after just one turn. Another strength that sharpy has is super fast dbonds, allowing him to take his revenge killer with him in many cases.

Sharpedo is currently sitting at B, and I don't see much reason atm for kabutops to be ranked above him.

Sharpedo also has non-existent bulk.

252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 148-174 (52.6 - 61.9%)
252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 139-165 (53 - 62.9%)

Even on a resisted hit, Sharpedo takes about as much as Kabutops. Furthermore:

252+ Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 236-278 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 114-134 (43.5 - 51.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Kabutops has passable 60/105 physical bulk. Sharpedo has dismal 70/40/40 defenses (worse than Mienshao) and can't take a single reasonably strong neutral hit, at all.

Setting up Swords Dance is hard against offensive teams, but it's not necessary (against offensive teams) because LO, Rain-boosted Watefalls hit super hard and can OHKO quite a lot of the meta. Unlike Sharpedo, it can Swords Dance to potentially dismantle a defensive team, and has the bulk to actually take a neutral hit; e.g. Florges' Moonblast only does 58.3 - 68.7%, which is quite a lot and will cut a sweep short due to LO recoil, but Florges has excellent offensive presence for a wall anyway.

Sharpedo is undeniably better outside of rain, and a ridiculously fast Destiny Bond is a nice addition it got this gen, but Kabutops, along with Kingdra, are absolutely irreplaceable for an offensive rain team. It's the best physically attacking Swift Swimmer by a mile, and nothing can really do what it does. Really, "it needs rain" is the only flaw it has.

 

[WebBowser]

Sergeant Spooky Excellent point on the bulk. I still think that Sharpedo could take kabutop's place on rain teams as a physical attacker simply due to having similar power and speed in rain (granted, sharpy needs a turn for speed boost to kick in). While sharpy is definitely better once rain is done. Kabutops is better in rain due to immediate speed boost, passable bulk, and high powered coverage moves to compliment waterfall, but I do not think that sharpedo is so far behind in rain power that I would not consider using him instead of kabutops.

That being said, I would also like to argue against the irreplacability of Kingdra as a specially based rain attacker. I think that while rain is up, Gorebyss actually outclasses Kingdra due to a much higher special attack stat. Both surf and hydro pump can plow through the bulkyest of resists and even with her poor speed, she can run modest and still outspeed the unboosted meta with rain. In fact, with the rain boost Gorebyss' stats are actually rather comparable to Keldeo, one of last gen's most terrifying mons in the rain. Now, for obvious reasons Kingdra is a much better mon once rain is gone, but 112 spa rain boosted water attacks are nothing to scoff at.

This is not to say that either Kabutops or Kingdra are bad mons. This doesn't even say that they are worse then the mons I compared them to. In both cases I presented, there are situations where one is definitely better then the other (most of them have to do with the presence of rain or lack therof) which is good. It creates options for a playstyle and meaningful choices at the teambuilding stage.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Sergeant Spooky Excellent point on the bulk. I still think that Sharpedo could take kabutop's place on rain teams as a physical attacker simply due to having similar power and speed in rain (granted, sharpy needs a turn for speed boost to kick in).

Which is why it's not that great of replacement for a swift swimmer, let alone Kabutops. You don't want to waste turns of Rain with Protect if you don't have to. Without Drizzle, Rain in UU is sort of a "minute to win it" playstyle because your best shot at sweeping with a swift swimmer is immediately after a suicide lead (e.g. Rain Dance+Memento Uxie,) and if you can't do buttloads of damage in the first eight turns you can be in a bad spot since manual rain dance is often pretty cumbersome.

Speed Boost is not Swift Swim, Kabutops and Sharpedo just aren't really comparable.

That being said, I would also like to argue against the irreplacability of Kingdra as a specially based rain attacker. I think that while rain is up, Gorebyss actually outclasses Kingdra due to a much higher special attack stat. Both surf and hydro pump can plow through the bulkyest of resists and even with her poor speed, she can run modest and still outspeed the unboosted meta with rain. In fact, with the rain boost Gorebyss' stats are actually rather comparable to Keldeo, one of last gen's most terrifying mons in the rain. Now, for obvious reasons Kingdra is a much better mon once rain is gone, but 112 spa rain boosted water attacks are nothing to scoff at.

I don't want to sound rude but this is sort of ridiculous lol. Kingdra is the best swift swimmer. Gorebyss is a bit of a slouch as far as swift swimmers go, to the point where things like Scarfed Shao (or anything with base ~90 or above) can outspeed, even if you go Timid (which sort of defeats the point of using it over Kingdra,) and OHKO with Reckless HJK. And if you go Modest, even more scarfers can outspeed. Kingra is also a bit bulkier and has a better typing, leaving it with only two fairly uncommon weaknesses; Roserade can comfortably check Gorebyss, taking a Specs Surf and OHKOing back, but Kingdra rams through it like the rest. Most importantly, Kingdra has a secondary STAB in Dragon, which gives it almost perfect coverage. It can use Dragon Pulse, which does a bit more than a resisted Hydro Pump, or it can just blow something up with Draco Meteor.

Plus the marginally higher power Gorebyss has isn't that important when the only things capable of countering (or even checking) Specs Kingdra are water resists/absorbs that also have a ton of special bulk, and are actually capable of KOing back or recovering health. This is an amazingly short list. Really, Gorebyss only has Shell Smash over Kingdra.

At any rate I don't want to turn this into a discussion about rain sweepers, we already got one.

 

[Schpoonman]

Sergeant Spooky, I want to stop you right there and make a very big point that you are missing: Florges was, as of last month, the most-used Pokemon in UU. To say that Kingdra's Fairy weakness is fairly uncommon is a gross misrepresentation of the state of the metagame. Furthermore, Kingdra requires you to be physical or the Sniper set or a shitton of prior damage AND Flash Cannon in order to break past Florges. Meanwhile, Gorebyss and Omastar both can much more easily break Florges with Shell Smash.

 

[jbtc10]

So Weavile has been given the boot again? I personally didn't find it to be that fantastic when I used it, but I didn't try the Swords Dance version, so that might be a reason, and I'm not sad to see it go anyway. Glad that Honchkrow finally moved up, he's a huge threat to a lot of teams. Surprised Crobat dropped, he has a fantastic typing, an amazing speed stat, a pretty good support movepool with things like Defog and Taunt, and has a really good Choice Band set which can transform him into a premier Brave Bird spammer. I thought A fit him perfectly to be honest.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Sergeant Spooky, I want to stop you right there and make a very big point that you are missing: Florges was, as of last month, the most-used Pokemon in UU. To say that Kingdra's Fairy weakness is fairly uncommon is a gross misrepresentation of the state of the metagame. Furthermore, Kingdra requires you to be physical or the Sniper set or a shitton of prior damage AND Flash Cannon in order to break past Florges. Meanwhile, Gorebyss and Omastar both can much more easily break Florges with Shell Smash.

Fairy and Dragon are a lot more uncommon than Grass and Electric was what I trying to say. Dragon/Water is just better than mono-Water; neutrality to Grass and Electric is a part of the reason why Kingdra is so good on a rain team. Yeah Florges is very prominent but it's the only Fairy that sees a lot of usage in UU, and I can't think of a single thing that can survive Kingdra's STABs and KO back with a non-STAB Fairy Move (Mega Absol certainly can't survive, and even if it could Play Rough doesn't quite KO. That's 150 base attack right there.) Meanwhile, we have a lot of grass and electric types that, while not all are able to actually beat swift swimmers in rain, they at the very least can't be set up on, as well as things that carry Electric coverage like Victini. You also get that -1 Def/SDef from Shell Smash, so unless you're running White Herb (which is exclusive to Life Orb or Splash Plate, or Lum Berry which is probably the best item right now due to Klefki) you take hits even worse.

Kingdra can 2HKO Florges (even 252/252+) with Hydro Pump, or with Surf after Stealth Rock (protect for leftovers can avoid a 2HKO though.) FC actually does quite a lot less. Moonblast also only has a 50% chance at OHKOing after SR (20% if you use 60 SDef EVs, which leaves enough speed EVs for Scarfed Mienshao.) So Florges has a really hard time switching in, and if it wants to reliably beat a healthy Kingdra it has to stall out rain with Wish-Protect, not attack. And yeah, physical DD sets beat Florges no problem, but I personally only use specs.

Omastar and Gorebyss are both super good rain abusers and can continue a sweep after rain ends, but in my experience in using them the amount of stuff they can't set-up on is a bit too high for my tastes; there are definitely opportunities, but it makes your likelihood of winning more match-up dependent, which is a general problem for rain teams. I really hate to downplay them because they're both incredibly dangerous in rain, but it's still my opinion that, for a rain team, there's really no good reason to not use Kingdra.

Hide

also, Critdra is really bad imo, let alone on a rain team, please don't mention it ;_;

 

[Rotosect]

Hide

also, Critdra is really bad imo, let alone on a rain team, please don't mention it ;_;

CritDra is bad if you try to play it as as a standard sweeper, which needs ludicrous amounts of support to work.
If you run Agility you can play it as a double dancer depending on what kind of team you're facing. Against offensive teams it's a late-game cleaner and against slow/bulky teams it works as a wallbreaker.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

Just a question. If Kingdra is obviously the better rain sweeper. Why did Kabutops recently get a higher ranking on the OU thread? They seemed to think he was by far the best one.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

OU is a vastly different meta compared to UU, and Kabutops brings his own priority to the table as well as a strong offensive presence. His rock stab also hits things for way more coverage (Talonflame, Zards, Pinsir, Thundurus, Kyu-b) than kingdra's dragon stab (Latis, Chomp,... uh maybe Zard X? idk).

In UU this is a different case since firstly: we don't have drizzle, and secondly, kingdra has an additional niche that is much more viable in UU in critdra, something which kabutops cannot replicate.

 

[dinotrek27]

Just a question. If Kingdra is obviously the better rain sweeper. Why did Kabutops recently get a higher ranking on the OU thread? They seemed to think he was by far the best one.

Because OU is priorityfest 2014 and if you are a fast sweeper that resists Flying and normal(brave bird and extremespeed) and have priority of your own you will generally find it easier to sweep stuff in OU. Kabutops is a slightly better rain sweeper there compared to Kingdra because of these. However in general Kingdra is far and away the best rain sweeper due to more immediate power, better speed and overall bulk. Kabutops is indeed really good and courtesy of its typing it tends to find more opportunities to set up and sweep due to its typing and access to priority whereas Kingdra performs more as the main wallbreaker with life orb or Specs and have a whole set of different(albeit more rare) switch in opportunities to water moves and resisting priority like aqua jet and bullet punch. And while it might not take it as well I believe it lives a brave bird and can continue its sweep.
So while both IMO are good with Kingdra being generally better, due to the nature of the metagame in OU, Kabutops finds more opportunities to set up and become deadly thus the marginally higher ranking.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Just a question. If Kingdra is obviously the better rain sweeper. Why did Kabutops recently get a higher ranking on the OU thread? They seemed to think he was by far the best one.

Kabutops has proven itself to be the most powerful force on rain teams because of its ability to just mow through offensive teams with absolute ease at +2, and it has the rare advantage of being able to out priority Thundurus in the rain and OHKO it with a +2 Aqua Jet, preventing it from stopping it from sweeping. It faces competition from nothing, and is extremely successful at what it does. You guys have convinced me to rank it higher than I had originally thought.

Kingdra is a very good rain wallbreaker/cleaner, and much like Kabutops, it's pretty much a staple. However, Kabutops has quite a few key advantages over Kingdra, namely priority and a boosting move, which is the reason it's ranked higher.

Also resistance to Talonflame's Brave Bird, and Kingdra's special sets are walled by blobs. They work great in tandem, since if Kingdra is KOed by BB then it's free set-up for Kabutops (Thundurus is a bitch though.) We'll call it a tie; they're both the best.

I think there's been enough talk about rain stuff, getting sort of off-topic. Use this thread.

 

[KM]

This is more of a discussion point than a full on plea for change, but I think Honchkrow might need to be moved to S rank.

Put simply, Honchkrow has been getting better and better. When each new poke is banned from UU, Honchkrow gets another counter it no longer has to worry about. The most significant of these have been Zapdos, Thundurus-T, and more recently Weavile. With these offensive and defensive counters gone, Honchkrow can very easily sweep through the entire tier. It offers unprecedented (and new and improved) coverage with Pursuit, Brave Bird, Sucker Punch, and Superpower, and besides dealing insane amounts of damage, it also performs two extra roles as a trapper and a priority user/revenge killer.

I'm not going to bother providing calcs because A. it's late, B. you all know what Honchkrow can do, and C. they're pretty hard to quantify. If using Honchkrow correctly, one will use sucker punch/brave bird/pursuit to get the first moxie boost, and proceed to sweep from there. Unlike other late-game sweepers, though, the rest of the opponent's team doesn't really have to be all that weakened, as Honchkrow's base damage is so high already that amplifying it with moxie boosts is just insane.

At the end of the day, the only real con to Honchkrow is that it's inherently suicidal. Although one can run roost to decent effect, I personally prefer going all-out offensive. However, Honchkrow's lack of counters in the current metagame and incredible damage means that he'll almost always be taking out one, two, three, or an entire team of enemy pokemon just by himself. Honchkrow for S Rank.

 

[effyouzion]

This is more of a discussion point than a full on plea for change, but I think Honchkrow might need to be moved to S rank.

Put simply, Honchkrow has been getting better and better. When each new poke is banned from UU, Honchkrow gets another counter it no longer has to worry about. The most significant of these have been Zapdos, Thundurus-T, and more recently Weavile. With these offensive and defensive counters gone, Honchkrow can very easily sweep through the entire tier. It offers unprecedented (and new and improved) coverage with Pursuit, Brave Bird, Sucker Punch, and Superpower, and besides dealing insane amounts of damage, it also performs two extra roles as a trapper and a priority user/revenge killer.

I'm not going to bother providing calcs because A. it's late, B. you all know what Honchkrow can do, and C. they're pretty hard to quantify. If using Honchkrow correctly, one will use sucker punch/brave bird/pursuit to get the first moxie boost, and proceed to sweep from there. Unlike other late-game sweepers, though, the rest of the opponent's team doesn't really have to be all that weakened, as Honchkrow's base damage is so high already that amplifying it with moxie boosts is just insane.

At the end of the day, the only real con to Honchkrow is that it's inherently suicidal. Although one can run roost to decent effect, I personally prefer going all-out offensive. However, Honchkrow's lack of counters in the current metagame and incredible damage means that he'll almost always be taking out one, two, three, or an entire team of enemy pokemon just by himself. Honchkrow for S Rank.

He's stealth rock weak, frail as fuck, slow as fuck and can't break thru physically defensive mons even after a boost. S-rank is Suicune and Slowbro who can literally take down entire teams. They also have the added benefit of switching in often and acting as a pivot. Honchkrow can take out an already weakened mon, then another, and weaken one more at best before dying to rocks + recoil damage. In order for Honchkrow to sweep like those other 2 he needs spin support, physically defensive mons removed (Suicune + Slowbro in particular), and mons that require brave bird to be beaten to be removed or else the crow will die to recoil. Def not S rank, but I'd put him at A because he does hit really fucking hard and his stab combo is great.

 

[jbtc10]

He's stealth rock weak, frail as fuck, slow as fuck and can't break thru physically defensive mons even after a boost. S-rank is Suicune and Slowbro who can literally take down entire teams. They also have the added benefit of switching in often and acting as a pivot. Honchkrow can take out an already weakened mon, then another, and weaken one more at best before dying to rocks + recoil damage. In order for Honchkrow to sweep like those other 2 he needs spin support, physically defensive mons removed (Suicune + Slowbro in particular), and mons that require brave bird to be beaten to be removed or else the crow will die to recoil. Def not S rank, but I'd put him at A because he does hit really fucking hard and his stab combo is great.

Both Suicune and Slowbro are 2HKO'd by Honchkrow after SR, so they can't switch into him or else they're just boosting bait for the mob boss. Being slow for a sweeper does bother it, but it doesn't matter as much when you have incredibly strong priority, and with sticky web support, he becomes even more of a nightmare. Definitely a more fearsome sweeper than both Suicune and Slowbro, because he at minimum also acts a powerful hole puncher and wallbreaker, something those other 2 can't do anything close to. Honchkrow definitely deserves his current A+ ranking and S-Rank is an understandable nomination.

And while Suicune is being mentioned, I'm also starting to question Suicune's placement in S-Rank. Suicune's sweeping and most common set (CroCune) is a mono attacker which is entirely walled by anything with Water Absorb, Storm Drain or Dry Skin (among other things), which is especially dangerous in the case of Toxicroak who can use Suicune as pure Swords Dance set-up bait, which is scary when he also has access to Sucker Punch, making him difficult to revenge from that position as well. This can make Suicune a pretty big liability in many games, which is not something you'd expect at all from an S-Rank pokemon, who are usually meant to have little opportunity cost or dangers associated with using them. CroCune is often quite slow off the bat to get going, and he can fall victim to powerful attackers like Reckless Mienshao whilst asleep or not, since Sleep Talk has a 2 in 3 chance of giving a bad result each time, and it's pretty easy to predict when CroCune is going to go to sleep. Partial reliance on luck (especially when the odds are against you) is never a good thing, and CroCune often has to do that in order to succeed at times. I think he may have enough flaws to be potentially A-ranked.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Both Suicune and Slowbro are 2HKO'd by Honchkrow after SR, so they can't switch into him or else they're just boosting bait for the mob boss. Being slow for a sweeper does bother it, but it doesn't matter as much when you have incredibly strong priority, and with sticky web support, he becomes even more of a nightmare. Definitely a more fearsome sweeper than both Suicune and Slowbro, because he at minimum also acts a powerful hole puncher and wallbreaker, something those other 2 can't do anything close to. Honchkrow definitely deserves his current A+ ranking and S-Rank is an understandable nomination.

And while Suicune is being mentioned, I'm also starting to question Suicune's placement in S-Rank. Suicune's sweeping and most common set (CroCune) is a mono attacker which is entirely walled by anything with Water Absorb, Storm Drain or Dry Skin (among other things), which is especially dangerous in the case of Toxicroak who can use Suicune as pure Swords Dance set-up bait, which is scary when he also has access to Sucker Punch, making him difficult to revenge from that position as well. This can make Suicune a pretty big liability in many games, which is not something you'd expect at all from an S-Rank pokemon, who are usually meant to have little opportunity cost or dangers associated with using them. CroCune is often quite slow off the bat to get going, and he can fall victim to powerful attackers like Reckless Mienshao whilst asleep or not, since Sleep Talk has a 2 in 3 chance of giving a bad result each time, and it's pretty easy to predict when CroCune is going to go to sleep. Partial reliance on luck (especially when the odds are against you) is never a good thing, and CroCune often has to do that in order to succeed at times. I think he may have enough flaws to be potentially A-ranked.

Suicune can also run Calm Mind + 3 attacks or SubCalmMind so it isn't always CroCune. If you switch in Toxicroak while it CMs and it turns out to be CM + 3 attacks your Toxicroak will get mutilated by +1 Ice Beam

 

[jbtc10]

+1 Ice Beam still doesn't do that much because of no STAB and Suicune's sub-par SpA stat, and if Toxicroak SD's expecting it to be CroCune, Drain Punch is a 2HKO, and guarantees he won't be 2HKO'd back due to the recovery from it. Suicune would only win if it had Extrasensory.

+1 252+ SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 179-211 (48.3 - 57%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+2 252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And imo, the problem with using Suicune as a CM + 3 attacks is that he's only mediocre at the role since he's slow relative to the offensive threats in the meta and has a low attacking stat which means he's kind of outclassed by other things like Reuniclus, who have access to instant recovery and a better ability. So I guess the issue at hand here is that his most common set has some very real dangers and problems associated with it, and his other sets are usually second-rate to other pokemon or just average and not really worth writing home about (not S-rank level stuff).