XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Limitless]

Have I included any 'I's, 'my team's in my previous posts? These wordings are on my last post just to specify my argument to the situation. Seriously stop using nitpicks as an argument.

As far as I remember, usage can be used as arguing for viability, but it is a weak one. Have I mentioned anything unviable as suction cups Cradily in my posts? I don't get the idea when I use COMMON VIABLE phazers like Hippowdon, Empoleon, Snorlax, Mega Aggron as examples and being commented as 'overspecialized', 'niche' etc when they NATURALLY uses these moves Florges or not. It is not like shit like unviable scarfed WoW Chandelure which is beaten by Snorlax anyway.

The problem of Florges is inconsistancy, especially when the phazers really good in UU and Florges have absolutely zero ways to overcome them unlike the situation of Aegislash. It doesn't matter how well Prankster Riolu last gen can do to a team without protect or faster priority. It is still nothing more than a Punchshroom gimmick. The way I have mentioned about dealing with Florges isn't any niche shit method like Suction Cups Cradily but there is actually four great pokemon using it. Florges cannot properly perform against certain team type (seriously, how many stall teams run none of those) makes it inconsistant enough for A+.

I do not want usage as an argument for viability. One cause does not equal the result of the other.

Also, Florges is not being moved down at this time. Your arguments have been clearly flawed, as has been pointed out by many posters. Please refrain from arguing this change, unless a development in the metagame arises.

 

[Taehl]

(p. much wall any special attacker not named Nidoking/Queen

Roserade and Magnezone get no love? :[

 

[Pipotchi]

Klefki's Prankster Recycle + Air Balloon would allow it to wall pretty much any kind of Haxorus that chooses Poison Jab over Iron Tail (which they usually do since the former kills Florges anyway), which is absolutely amazing by the way since it is immune to 3 types in Dragon, Poison, and Ground now, one of which is its former weakness. This makes it really damn good at setting up Spikes early game, can easily turn the tables on Grounds with Toxic, support with Prankster Thunder Wave, or even possess some basic fighting ability in Play Rough which hits a rather surprising amount of Pokemon.

Thats not how recycle works sadly because it cant recycle air balloon

 

[mertyville]

You will call me insane but I support Flygon to B- Rank

As an offensive Dragon, it is obviously outclassed by Hydreigon, Mence and Haxorus, but with Zapdos and Latias, two great Defoggers, being gone, Flygon can shine as one of the best Defoggers in the Tier.
Unlike Mew, Flygon has great Typing (Ground/Dragon) and Levitate which gains it resistance against Stealth Rocks and immunity to all other entry hazards. It boosts decent bulk, reliable recovery (Roost) and good resistance to Rock and Fire and immunity to Ground and Electric which are all common typs. Not to mention it is with Mence the fastes Dragon in the tier and can even hit back offensivly really well, aspecially with STAB Earthquake.

In other words, Flygon has a niche over the other three Dragons.

 

[Punchshroom]

Thats not how recycle works sadly because it cant recycle air balloon

That's what I thought too at first too, until I tried this on the simulator only to see it work again. The reason I say 'again' is because BW had a similiar occurence with Recycle + Air Balloon, which is then fixed since. I don't know if there are any new mechanic changes in Gen 6 Recycle, as the answer I got in the SQSA thread had no reliable sources.

 

[Yellow Cheese]

The crt strategy only works on kingdra because of sniper, otherwise its just a shitty dragon dance. Seriously stop using scope lens salamence lol.

I use it for the edge in unpredictablilty and pure fun, which is to me more important than simply winning battles.

 

[Jvasss]

^
cos the viability thread isnt about winning battles. not at all.
and the opponent has no idea what you are doing, particularly after you have used focus energy,the ultimate surprise factor

 

[Rotosect]

As for Salamence, it's S rank is justified. And I'll give you one reason as to why you shouldn't discount it against defensive / stall teams:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-98220176 - so, clearly my opponent here has 2 counters and one hard check to Scarf Salamence. Even with an overprediction mid-game as I try to lure out his Florges, I still manage to clean up with it. And speaking of Florges, this is a classic example of why it is A+ rank as well. Nidoking needed at least 3 chances to avoid crit or SpAtk drop hax against my opponent's Florges to actually break it for Mence, and Florges gave him these chances. Oh, and she also lived LO Steel Wing from Mence at ~60% and poisoned. And she still took it out, kept herself healthy enough to check Heracross if Mence went down, AND kept Nidoking healthy enough to finally break my opponent's Florges. Took 63 turns for me to finally lose a Pokemon, and that was mainly due to the fact I just needed a sacrificial switch to ensure Mega Ampharos could safely remove Xatu (and it wasn't fully necessary either) and it was mainly thanks to Florges.

This replay shows why Salamence shouldn't be S-rank.
Being forced to run horrible coverage moves in Iron Tail or Steel Wing just to deal with Florges makes it much less of a threat and even then Iron Tail missed and Steel Wing failed to KO when it mattered.
Salamence already suffered from a nasty 4MSS before fairies were introduced and now it's much worse.
I'd argue even Flygon is better than Salamence in this metagame since it has a good EQ STAB and U-Turn so it doesn't kill your momentum when Florges shows up.

 

[termi]

I use it for the edge in unpredictablilty and pure fun, which is to me more important than simply winning battles.

Yeah but don't suggest objectively inferior sets on a forum that's about competitive Pokemon

 

[dumbguyfin]

This replay shows why Salamence shouldn't be S-rank.
Being forced to run horrible coverage moves in Iron Tail or Steel Wing just to deal with Florges makes it much less of a threat and even then Iron Tail missed and Steel Wing failed to KO when it mattered.
Salamence already suffered from a nasty 4MSS before fairies were introduced and now it's much worse.
I'd argue even Flygon is better than Salamence in this metagame since it has a good EQ STAB and U-Turn so it doesn't kill your momentum when Florges shows up.

Saying that Flygon is better than salamence is ridiculous, since there are only 2 common fairy types in uu (florges and Gardevoir).

 

[radianthero156]

iron tail is not 'horrible coverage' in salamence. what would you run over it? fire blast, aerial ace, stone edge? salamence should be sweeping with dragon moves, if something walls them, it should simply run coverage to get a way through them. if florges is common and walls dragon moves and iron tail hits it for heavy damage, there's no reason mence should not run it. in fact, i'd much rather be walled by bronzong (who is RU) than be walled by florges (who is a top 5 used mon).

also, flygon is very frail and very weak. STAB earthquake is going to do much less to florges than mence's iron tail, and u-turn is unreliable as in it requires a lot of prediction.

 

[mertyville]

I am suprised that people think always about Super Effective moves, when we talk about coverage.

Haxorus doesn't need SE against Fairies because non of them can take boosted Earthquake from it.
Hydreigon doesn't need Steel Typ moves because it has U-Turn and great mixed offense to put pressure on Fairies.
Salamence as well can boost its offense to a higher level and one dragon dance is usually enough to take care of Fairies with their non-existing defense.
But I think the thing with Mence is, that it has huge weakness to Ice Shards and right now Cloyster in UU not to mention weakness to Stealth Rocks makes you rather want to use other Dragons, which are as intiminating as Mence itself. :/

 

[newfren]

+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 154-182 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 272-324 (82.1 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So Salamence is not going to be muscling past florges if it lacks iron tail. It needs super effective coverage on it.

+1 252 Atk Salamence Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 308-364 (85.5 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

With basically any prior damage on florges or stealth rock, you are going to muscle through it easily with iron tail.

Super effective coverage is necessary.

Let's look at Haxorus v. Florges:

+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 218-257 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 306-360 (101.3 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even with the 36 health evs the calc puts on there for some reason, SD Haxorus can be taken care of by a healthy Florges if it doesn't have poison jab.

+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 350-412 (97.2 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Oh hey with poison jab all you need is 3% damage to get the guaranteed OHKO. Now Florges no longer counters your Haxorus set.

As for Hydreigon it has no business dealing with fairies.

 

[Yellow Cheese]

^
cos the viability thread isnt about winning battles. not at all.
and the opponent has no idea what you are doing, particularly after you have used focus energy,the ultimate surprise factor

If your opponent does not understand your sets, then you're going to have a good time :]

Yeah but don't suggest objectively inferior sets on a forum that's about competitive Pokemon

I get your point, but being unpredictable can be major in any competitive battle. And what I meant was the I play competitive pokemon for pure fun. Let us however stop the discussion about that salamence set, we have better things to discuss.

 

[Rotosect]

iron tail is not 'horrible coverage' in salamence. what would you run over it? fire blast, aerial ace, stone edge? salamence should be sweeping with dragon moves, if something walls them, it should simply run coverage to get a way through them. if florges is common and walls dragon moves and iron tail hits it for heavy damage, there's no reason mence should not run it. in fact, i'd much rather be walled by bronzong (who is RU) than be walled by florges (who is a top 5 used mon).

also, flygon is very frail and very weak. STAB earthquake is going to do much less to florges than mence's iron tail, and u-turn is unreliable as in it requires a lot of prediction.

Iron Tail is an awful move, don't kid yourself. It's not even used as STAB for a reason. Fire Blast has always been the standard in the past because it hit physically defensive steel types for the most damage, but now Salamence is forced to choose between them and Florges on every set bar the LO+4 attacks one (and even then, it's still an issue because Salamence would love Roost or DD on that set), so that alone prevents it from being a S-rank threat.
It doesn't help that Mega Aggron+Florges is an extremely common defensive core, so no matter what Salamence does against them it will be walled.

Flygon has a SR resistance, U-Turn and STAB EQ, all things Salamence doesn't have. It can't sweep but it's still an excellent pivot that doesn't kill your momentum as badly as Salamence does in the current metagame.

 

[radianthero156]

salamence never needed fire blast in UU, it might have used it in OU but it was because of skarmory, not because of steel types. it hits steels super effectively with boosted earthquakes, why the heck would it use its weaker offensive stat? it's like having toxicroak using hidden power ice over ice punch because gliscor has less special defense. fire blast has 3 perks over earthquake: bronzong, forretress and escavalier. the usage of the 3 combined is not even half of the usage of florges.

and you are forgetting flygon is piss poor weak. it's weaker than a deino; what do you think he's doing against florges/aggron, failing to 3HKO both without a CB? and a pivot is a slow pokemon, not a fast one. if you u-turn before they move, they can just stay in and you'll lose even more momentum. and it's not like florges switching in against salamence kills the momentum of the latter, since florges doesn't bring momentum for the user

 

[Schpoonman]

Bringing in a wall might not bring in momentum, but it can certainly reset momentum if you were behind on it.

I think defining the difference between a pivot and a scout will go a long way in excising some extraneous arguments. That was really wordy, sorry. It will go a long way in cleaning up discussion: A pivot is a Pokemon like bulky Rotom-W or Mega Ampharos. They come in, take a hit, take back some momentum if you're on the back foot or keep it going if you have the advantage. They often tank a hit and then switch with U-turn or Volt Switch in order to see what you're going to do and safely bring in a response, like Volt Switching to Assault Vest Metagross in response to Florges switching in on Mega Ampharos.

A scout, on the other hand, like Choice Scarf Mienshao or Mega Manectric, is typically a faster Pokemon that you use to gather information about your opponent's team. The "slow switch" of U-turn and Volt Switch (even if you move first, switching is still the first thing that happens in any turn) lets you preserve momentum by always keeping your opponent on the defensive by bringing in something that can pray on the switch, like U-turning to Crawdaunt when they switch in Slowbro on your Mienshao.

Anybody have anything to add to that? Once we've settled on a proper definition, and what role Flygon plays, we can more accurately ascribe him a rank, though personally I think he doesn't deserve a ranking in UU.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

How is Raikou in the same tier as Shuckle. What. Either move Raikou up or Shuckle down, because that's total nonsense. Especially when Raikou is a top tier threat with great matchups against omnipresent pokemon like Mega Blastoise, Tornadus-T, Suicune, Slowbro, Hawlucha etc. It's one of the best revenge killers currently out there and basically mandatory on any VoltTurn team that doesn't want to use their Mega Slot on Mega Manectric.

 

[BurningFury101]

+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 154-182 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 272-324 (82.1 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So Salamence is not going to be muscling past florges if it lacks iron tail. It needs super effective coverage on it.

+1 252 Atk Salamence Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 308-364 (85.5 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

With basically any prior damage on florges or stealth rock, you are going to muscle through it easily with iron tail.

Super effective coverage is necessary.

Let's look at Haxorus v. Florges:

+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 218-257 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 306-360 (101.3 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even with the 36 health evs the calc puts on there for some reason, SD Haxorus can be taken care of by a healthy Florges if it doesn't have poison jab.

+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 350-412 (97.2 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Oh hey with poison jab all you need is 3% damage to get the guaranteed OHKO. Now Florges no longer counters your Haxorus set.

As for Hydreigon it has no business dealing with fairies.

Keep in mind for both Salamence AND Haxorus you must pre-setup, setting-up while Florges is in play is essentially suicide. Also, another reason why Salamence deserves S-Rank is that it's speed tier of 100 is JUST enough to outspeed faster threats such as Haxorus, Hydreigon, Darmanitan, (speed tie) Victini and others with or without Scarf. Haxorus sits at 97, although impressive, it's just barely outsped by things such as Hydreigon, ScarfDarmanitan (I run into it often..), and others, this is why DD is the better set imo. Look at my last post, that will tell you more about Salamence why it should Deserve S-Rank.

 

[dumbguyfin]

Keep in mind for both Salamence AND Haxorus you must pre-setup, setting-up while Florges is in play is essentially suicide. Also, another reason why Salamence deserves S-Rank is that it's speed tier of 100 is JUST enough to outspeed faster threats such as Haxorus, Hydreigon, Darmanitan, (speed tie) Victini and others with or without Scarf. Haxorus sits at 97, although impressive, it's just barely outsped by things such as Hydreigon, ScarfDarmanitan (I run into it often..), and others, this is why DD is the better set imo. Look at my last post, that will tell you more about Salamence why it should Deserve S-Rank.

One small fix, Haxorus is faster than Darmanitan.

 

[dumbguyfin]

Here are some changes that i would make:

Nidoking A -> A+ (already talked about this a couple of pages ago) Pretty much nothing in S or A can take hits from it, aside from Umbreon

Umbreon A+ -> A Umbreon is great, but i find it a bit outclassed by florges, because florges has a much better typing and they have a very similar role (cleric), and is less of a set up bait against special attackers, since foul play doesnt really hurt most spevcal sweeper. It does have better wishes and it can wall nidoking unlike florges, so that is why he should be A

Klefki S -> A Klefki is a great screens users, but compared to other S tier pokemon it is very lackluster, and it really cant take on big threats like Lum berry dragons, magnezone, crocune, powerful fire types... It is a solid poke, but not "S-level".

Magnezone A+ -> S Its specs set got even better with chansey leaving, as now pretty much nothing can take hits from it. It can now also run magnet pull to trap steel types to give dragons easier time, but the specs set is the main problem. It can switch so easily against common special walls like florges and umbreon, who really cant touch it, definitely worthy of S ranking.

Raikou B+ -> A- Raikou being in the same tier as shuckle and vivillion is a crime. It is a great addition to all voltturn teams, and it can run a variety of sets. It is a bit outclassed by m-manectric, but m-manectric takes a mega slot, so there is that.

 

[BurningFury101]

One small fix, Haxorus is faster than Darmanitan.

Yes, in the post I said "ScarfDarmanitan XD"

 

[dumbguyfin]

Yes, in the post I said "ScarfDarmanitan XD"

If you have set up to +1 with dd you are faster than scarfed dmanitan. Dmanitan has base 95 and Haxorus base 97 speed. Scarf and dd both give you +1 speed, so Haxorus is still faster.

 

[BurningFury101]

If you have set up to +1 with dd you are faster than scarfed dmanitan. Dmanitan has base 95 and Haxorus base 97 speed. Scarf and dd both give you +1 speed, so Haxorus is still faster.

True, but that's the reason why I said "DD set is better imo". Even so, my point was that the post with the calcs were essentially "irrelevant" as you have to set-up first, and without DD Haxorus' speed can't catch up to other threats.

 

[the mystery duck]

I would like to propose a slight change to C rank's description. Preferably to this (or the one in the OU viability list):

C Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks in most situations.

Honestly, why would a pokemon be considered in teambuilding if it is completely eclipsed by another pokemon in the same tier (this is assuming that a person is trying to make a team that is good)?

This brings me to my next point. I nominate Claydol, Chatot, Delphox, and Dusclops to be removed from the list. After testing them, I feel that these pokemon are either completely overshadowed by other pokemon in the same overall grade rank, as well as higher ranks, or no relevance to the UU metagame.

Claydol - So it has the combination of SR, a hazard removing move, and immunity to spikes/t-spikes while not being SR weak itself. So what? Its lack of reliable recovery, numerous weaknesses, and bad offense thoroughly outweighs its positives. Gligar is better to use than Claydol for the combination of positives it has (not to mention the many other hazard removers that recently dropped), as it has reliable recovery while having more relevant utility options to choose from, like u-turn and knock off.

Chatot - As another poster said before me, Chatot doesn't become viable just because it got boomburst. There's no relevant reason to use this over Exploud and Porygon-Z except for ground immunity (that is outweighed by the weaknesses that flying type brings, including SR). Chatter, despite being a sound move and having a good secondary effect, is simply too weak when compared to its competition's coverage moves. The main reason I'm suggesting it to be removed is due to its abysmal bulk in comparison to Porygon-Z's average bulk (which lets it take a weak or moderate neutral move) and Exploud's good bulk. Chatot's combination of terrible bulk and flying weaknesses actually gives it much less switching opportunities than Porygon-Z and Exploud.

Delphox - Why use this over Victini, ever? More powerful non-fire special moves? Completely irrelevant due to Victini's better movepool (with higher bp and coverage) and ability to use the physical spectrum effectively. Guaranteed to outspeed base 100s with a speed-increasing nature? Honestly only relevant when against a max speed LO shaymin with EP, and I don't see this as being enough for Delphox to be on the list. Magician? From experience, it's more hindering to have this ability than helpful, as the ability leads to bad gimmicky sets or the opponent takes advantage of it (ex. opponent switches in a fire-resistant mon to take your white herb Overheat that happens to have a choice band, limiting what Delphox can do, thus making it a lot more predictable).

Dusclops - In addition to what others have said about it, I would add that Trevenant's drop to UU means that its small niche(curse set) is now gone. Dusclops may have better bulk, but Trevenant having leech seed and passive recovery are far more important for a curse set (especially the latter).