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So I was about to write up yet another lengthy, somewhat ranty article about Qwilfish (everyone's favorite, I know), and how it should probably be moved up to B/B+ in light of the tier changes. But then something struck me.
The UU metagame is in a constant flux at the minute. With changes happening at a fairly rapid rate as well as the scale of the changes being enormous at this point (e.g. six pokes being moved out of the tier at once, etc), there's going to be a ton of shifting in viability. This is expected. As you can see over the last two pages, the vast majority of it focuses around A-ranked and S-ranked pokes and their shifting between it due to the moving of top-tier threats. This, as well, is expected, and just. It is the primary duty of the thread to show how top-tier threats react to the changes and how viable they are in the metagame.
However, the B and C ranked threats have not seen, and probably will not see, any change from the tier shifts. It's quite honestly unrealistic to go through every single B and C rank and adjust it to a + or a - based on the banning of Salamence or Klefki; we just don't have the resources in terms of manpower and sample size, and it's also rather useless, as the next shift of drops/bans will once again shift their respective viabilities.
As such, isn't it slightly misleading to have +/neutral/- delineations in B and C rank? It's sort of undeniable that those rankings are incredibly subjective, and most of them are relatively outdated on the micro scale. The recent changes alone were so incredibly polarizing themselves that most of the things in the lower B and C rankings would almost certainly shift up a rank or down a rank.
In a balanced metagame that has existed for a long time, in which suspect tests occur occasionally and only have one poke in them, it's perfectly acceptable to assume this kind of precision in viability. However, it's slightly misleading for people who read the original thread and assume that the standards of precision that we've set ourselves are constantly met. Rather than show an unrealistic ability to delineate lower-tier threats to this extent in such a rapidly changing metagame, it makes more sense to temporarily eliminate the + and - rankings from all but the A tier.
If the general consensus is against the idea expressed in this post, however, you can expect a lovely, long rant about why Qwilfish just got a whole lot better, coming soon to theatres near you.
I have to get to class, so I'll make this brief. By the way, that's one of the best posts in this thread, so give yourself a pat on the back.
While I agree with everything you said, it's equally pointless to unformat everything. In a general sense, the +- rankings are correct (albeit for like 30% due to tier shifts). The only downside, as you mentioned, would be new players being mislead by the rankings. To be perfectly honest, most people don't even use Pokemon under the A- rank, let alone B+ rank. So the actual effects of me killing the formatting are probably very slim. Even further, there's a clear difference between B+ and B rankings, so there's some evidence to support the theory that it could actually help. It's all subjective I suppose.
I liked your post though, and should be a template for what every poster in this thread should strive towards.
*has legitimately used M-Ampharos, Entei, and Vaporeon effectively when all 3 are B+ rank* I am disappoint Limitless ...
Anyway, there's something I missed in the midst of trying to justify Suicune's spot as an S rank mon, and that's Nidoqueen.
With Nioking being better, so is Nidoqueen. I feel Nidoqueen should move up to A/A+ rank. Queen has benefited from the recent bans just as much, if not more than, Nidoking. (was she really staying in on the Dragons and Crawdaunt?) She actually has slightly more power than Nidoking since she commonly runs more of a bulky attacker set with Modest nature. With stall rising, I think she only gets better as her lower Speed is usually her downfall compared to Nidoking. She's got more bulk to hang around longer, slightly more power, and the ability to reliably setup Rocks for offensive / balanced teams without losing much in terms of coverage. Basically, she's a bulkier, slightly stronger, but slower Nidoking. This helps her against stall teams (which should be rising with recent bans) but hurts more against offensive teams (which still have dangerous things like Victini, Darmanitan, Krookodile, etc.) will edit with calcs later as I don't have a ton of time atm
*has legitimately used M-Ampharos, Entei, and Vaporeon effectively when all 3 are B+ rank* I am disappoint Limitless ...
Anyway, there's something I missed in the midst of trying to justify Suicune's spot as an S rank mon, and that's Nidoqueen.
With Nioking being better, so is Nidoqueen. I feel Nidoqueen should move up to A/A+ rank. Queen has benefited from the recent bans just as much, if not more than, Nidoking. (was she really staying in on the Dragons and Crawdaunt?) She actually has slightly more power than Nidoking since she commonly runs more of a bulky attacker set with Modest nature. With stall rising, I think she only gets better as her lower Speed is usually her downfall compared to Nidoking. She's got more bulk to hang around longer, slightly more power, and the ability to reliably setup Rocks for offensive / balanced teams without losing much in terms of coverage. Basically, she's a bulkier, slightly stronger, but slower Nidoking. This helps her against stall teams (which should be rising with recent bans) but hurts more against offensive teams (which still have dangerous things like Victini, Darmanitan, Krookodile, etc.) will edit with calcs later as I don't have a ton of time atm
Nidoqueen's struggle with Victini, Darmanitan, and Krookodile should not be a mark against Nidoqueen, not really. In fact, her ability to live Scarf V-create and Flare Blitz, as well as a small-ish chance to survive an OHKO from Scarf Earthquake are huge. Nidoking doesn't outspeed the three of them anyway (base 85 vs base 100, 95, and 92, respectively), so investing in Nidoqueen's bulk and living through those hits to promptly OHKO the three of them is a point Nidoqueen has over Nidoking.
That might not have been the point of your post, but I wanted to touch on that if it was. Sorry.
I'm a big fan of Typhlosion. I really am. Heck, one of my best BW RU teams centered around Typhlosion. But why on earth would I use Typhlosion in UU over Chandelure? Sure, Typhlosion's got extra Speed, but Chandelure has much more power, and it isn't fully reliant on entry hazards being removed to unleash its strongest move. Even though there are plenty of options to get rid of entry hazards, quite a few of the setters are rather bulky. Hippowdon, Empoleon, Jirachi, Celebi, and Mew just to name a few. So even if you can remove Rocks, odds are, it will be set back down since only Empoleon lacks reliable recovery. I think B- is the highest it should go, but I think C+ is a bit more fitting since it faces stiff competition and requires more support than most other special attacking Fire-types.
I have a nomination of my own and this will likely get fairly lengthy, so there's your warning:
I'd like to nominate Mega Ampharos to A rank. (A- at worst) This thing is so damn good right now. Its two primary sets play so much differently from each other, but both are quite good. The bulky attacker set can easily open holes in opposing teams with its great STAB combination. The low Speed also lets the set play in Trick Room effectively as well, and M-Ampharos has good synergy with many TR abusers in the tier (Slowbro, Escavalier, Cresselia, etc.) and Mold Breaker ensures M-Aggron can't harass the team. Outside of Trick Room, it can utilize Heal Bell to provide Cleric support without losing a ton in terms of coverage or power. With just minimal Speed investment, M-Ampharos can outpace and 2HKO Hippowdon to remove it from play, thus letting physical attackers have a much easier time. Its slow Volt Switch lets stuff like Tornadus-T, Nidoking, and Mienshao have additional opportunities to pressure defensive cores.
Now, the other set is a physically defensive set. PhysDef M-Ampharos is able to check or outright counter so many things right now. Tornadus-T, Crawdaunt, Victini, Magnezone, most Grass-types, and most Electric-types get checked or outright countered by physically defensive M-Ampharos. Even though it has to resort to RestTalk for recovery, it pairs well with Florges and has a 33% chance to draw Volt Switch, thus letting it still switch out and build momentum to keep sweepers from setting up. Here's some M-Ampharos calcs for a 248/252+ spread:
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 127-150 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 133-159 (34.7 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 160-190 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Ampharos: 95-113 (24.8 - 29.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Ampharos: 124-148 (32.3 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sheer Force Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Ampharos: 128-151 (33.4 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (had to use Sheer Force due to Showdown's calc having a glitch with Analytic not working.)
and for the extreme...
252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 282-332 (73.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
yeah, name me another Pokemon that can take on all of these threats at once while still having an offensive presence. The only Pokemon in the tier that quite literally dgaf about anything Magnezone can do. And if you really want to stick it to Grass-types, Electric-types, Magnezone, and Chandelure, then you can go specially defensive. And if you want to see it in action, then here you go: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-98191292
I'd like to second the move of Mega-Ampharos to A rank as well. This thing is rediculously bulky, and with a lot of the big stall breakers gone now he has less to screw him up.
Ok, screw editing that last post. Will make it too long. Chesnaught , although it's cool Queen can live those hits, it isn't likely that she'll be at full health. I was more-so getting at resisted and neutral attacks from more defensive threats, but I feel I misled you with how I ended my post, so apologies there. Anyway, here's some Queen calcs against stall / balanced teams. This will use a 248/252+/8 spread (probably a more optimal one for speed tiers and such, but this one is simplest)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 257-304 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Dragon Pulse has a very low chance to even 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 236-281 (68.8 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. 0 Atk Earthquake tops out at 66.8%
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 213-252 (59.1 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Protect will not save it; ever.
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 169-200 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Nidoking actually can't guarantee the 2HKO. Ice Beam doesn't even do 50%...
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 203-239 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Protect can't save Umbreon. And Foul Play barely does 25% max.
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 328-385 (90.1 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock. Scald barely does 50%...
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Ampharos: 346-408 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock. And this is one of stall's best all-purpose defensive checks to Victini, Darmanitan, and Torn-T. Mispredict doesn't screw you here though, like it might with the SpDef set.
With the ban of Crawdaunt, Houndoom, and Hydreigon, most of the big Dark users are now out of UU, which in my experience has made Cresselia incredibly difficult to deal with. With the CM/Moonlight or Sub/CM sets, and a full physically defensive spread, nothing can force her out really, especially if she even gets one turn of CM. I can't think of a single counter for Cresselia, just a handful of checks.
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 171-202 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 236-278 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 158-186 (35.5 - 41.8%) -- 84.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 165-196 (37.1 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 234-276 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 230-275 (51.8 - 61.9%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
She definitely belongs in at least A tier as she fits the description of 'can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support', and does not deserve to be below the likes of Virizion, Gorebyss and Amolamola.
Vivillon is a beast. Compound Eyes + Sleep Powder is a 97.5% sleep chance, which gives her a free turn to Quiver Dance most of the time. Once you've Quiver Danced, you've got Hurricane, with a 91% hit chance, and Bug Buzz/Energy Ball for coverage. The huge advantage she has over Butterfree (who can do the same trick) is that she has a base speed of 89, which allows her to outspeed a large portion of the meta game before she's even danced, so that she doesn't need to lose her Focus Sash before the sleep goes off in the first place. After 1 Quiver Dance, she outspeeds every non-scarf in the meta, even Crobat and Mega Aero, as well as some important Scarfs, like Heracross, allowing her to put each new opponent to sleep and murder them with Hurricanes.
while the thing is that you can't put more than 1 opponent to sleep due to Sleep Clause, Vivillon is indeed a beast due to Compoundeyes fixing Hurricane and Sleep Powder's accuracy. despite being from a 90 SpA stat, a +1 Hurricane is bound to hurt most non-resists.
while the thing is that you can't put more than 1 opponent to sleep due to Sleep Clause, Vivillon is indeed a beast due to Compoundeyes fixing Hurricane and Sleep Powder's accuracy. despite being from a 90 SpA stat, a +1 Hurricane is bound to hurt most non-resists.
If they don't swap out the sleeper, you can put the next thing to sleep once you murder it. If they do, you get a free Hurricane on their next mon anyhow.
Does anyone think Celebi should be A+ ranked? I feel like since Crawdaunt and Houdoom-Mega went up, and Thundy-T dropped, Celebi could be a very valuable player on a team. It, for the most part, can switch in on most Thundy sets and force it out. Putting Baton Pass or U-Turn will allow you to scout if Thundy is going to try to get to +2, in which case, you can send out something that can threaten it out. Also, Celebi is an excellent Baton Passer. It can either CM, SD, or NP up, pass the boosts thanks to its bulk. In addition, if it has nothing to BP too, it can spam Giga Drain. A moveset up Recover, BP, (Boosting Move), and Giga Drain could put dents into most teams.
Celebi also shuts down Crocune temporarily. Suicine can probably beat it due to pressure (Suicine can stall out Gastro/Cent).
It also gets a few nice moves, such as Perish Song and Stealth Rock, adding even more utility. Overall I feel Celebi is an underrated defensive threat in this meta.
Does anyone think Celebi should be A+ ranked? I feel like since Crawdaunt and Houdoom-Mega went up, and Thundy-T dropped, Celebi could be a very valuable player on a team. It, for the most part, can switch in on most Thundy sets and force it out. Putting Baton Pass or U-Turn will allow you to scout if Thundy is going to try to get to +2, in which case, you can send out something that can threaten it out. Also, Celebi is an excellent Baton Passer. It can either CM, SD, or NP up, pass the boosts thanks to its bulk. In addition, if it has nothing to BP too, it can spam Giga Drain. A moveset up Recover, BP, (Boosting Move), and Giga Drain could put dents into most teams.
Celebi also shuts down Crocune temporarily. Suicine can probably beat it due to pressure (Suicine can stall out Gastro/Cent).
It also gets a few nice moves, such as Perish Song and Stealth Rock, adding even more utility. Overall I feel Celebi is an underrated defensive threat in this meta.
Does anyone think Celebi should be A+ ranked? I feel like since Crawdaunt and Houdoom-Mega went up, and Thundy-T dropped, Celebi could be a very valuable player on a team. It, for the most part, can switch in on most Thundy sets and force it out. Putting Baton Pass or U-Turn will allow you to scout if Thundy is going to try to get to +2, in which case, you can send out something that can threaten it out. Also, Celebi is an excellent Baton Passer. It can either CM, SD, or NP up, pass the boosts thanks to its bulk. In addition, if it has nothing to BP too, it can spam Giga Drain. A moveset up Recover, BP, (Boosting Move), and Giga Drain could put dents into most teams.
Celebi also shuts down Crocune temporarily. Suicine can probably beat it due to pressure (Suicine can stall out Gastro/Cent).
It also gets a few nice moves, such as Perish Song and Stealth Rock, adding even more utility. Overall I feel Celebi is an underrated defensive threat in this meta.
Even with Crawdaunt and Houndoom-Mega banned, the spamming of U-Turn and Knock Off really crushes it's viability. It's good utility but I find it too be too much dead weight and causes you to lose momentum. It gives free switches to things like Roserade, Tornadus-T, Darmanitan and Victini (it can t-wave them on the switch in but that's about it, not even that effective with a prevalence aromatherapy/heal bell).
I also feel that Vivillon is up to high actually. It has terrible defensive stats along with a nasty Stealth Rock weakness which means it isn't living a hit. With the best defoggers in the tier gone, keeping SR off the field has become a whole lot more difficult as well which really limits its set up opportunities.
Base 89 speed will leave it outsped by all common scarfers after a boost and even at +1 special attack, it isn't all that threatening anyway.
In any case, Venomoth is much better and is a lower rank which is confusing. It hits base 90 speed, its stealth rock weakness is not as big, it is bulkier and it resists the new fairy type and can easily set up on Florges which is an extremely common Pokemon. It can baton pass the boosts to something that can actually sweep because like I said, base 90 special attack ain't cutting it.
If you do want to attempt to sweep with a Quiver Dancer, Venomoth is arguably better despite Vivillons STAB Hurricane. With Tinted Lense, Venomoth can hit pretty much everything at least neutrally while Vivillon fails to hit common things like Mega Aggron. Also, with Fairies floating around, STAB Sludge Bomb isn't useless anymore.
I think at the very least, Venomoth should be higher than Vivillon due to it being more useful and more diverse in that it can Baton Pass and Tinted Lense leaves it difficult to wall, plus it is bulkier and can find more time to set up due to the useful resistances poison type grants. All Vivillon has over Venomoth is a more accurate Sleep Powder (which is fairly accurate anyway) and STAB Hurricane which is only notable for it's higher base power and confusion rate.
I also feel that Vivillon is up to high actually. It has terrible defensive stats along with a nasty Stealth Rock weakness which means it isn't living a hit. With the best defoggers in the tier gone, keeping SR off the field has become a whole lot more difficult as well which really limits its set up opportunities.
Base 89 speed will leave it outsped by all common scarfers after a boost and even at +1 special attack, it isn't all that threatening anyway.
In any case, Venomoth is much better and is a lower rank which is confusing. It hits base 90 speed, its stealth rock weakness is not as big, it is bulkier and it resists the new fairy type and can easily set up on Florges which is an extremely common Pokemon. It can baton pass the boosts to something that can actually sweep because like I said, base 90 special attack ain't cutting it.
To the first part: It's defensive stats are moot, because they're low enough that he's just using Focus Sash as his 'defensive stats'. The Stealth Rock weakness isn't even really valid either, because once again, he revolves on that Focus Sash, and even if he had 4x resistance to Rock, it'd still fuck him over just as much. Until M-Blast gets banned, there's still a very strong Rapid Spinner in the meta for him to team with.
To the second part: As long as he's not beating his head on resistances/stall tanks, he's a huge threat to most other offensive mons in UU.
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 630-744 (232.4 - 274.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 210-247 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 253-298 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-T: 229-270 (76.5 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 336-396 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
To the third part: Compound Eyes Sleep Powder is what seperates him from Venomoth. Reliable sleep is much stronger than unreliable sleep. Venomoth may deserve to be higher, but he does not share the same niche as Vivillon.
Venomoth hits harder though, in a way. Hitting every resist for neutral damage thanks to Tinted Lens. Venomoth also gets access to Toxic Spikes iirc. I really don't think they play the same role in a team, but here are the calcs anyway. At least put them in the same rank. Maybe B for both Venomoth and Vivillon?
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Aggron: 87-102 (25.2 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Aggron: 96-114 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Anyway, leaving that discussion, why's Mega Abomasnow in B? He can deal with the S ranked mons just fine (provided that they have taken prior damage of course). The genies are 2HKOd by Ice Shard and Hail damage. Giga Drain 2HKOs CroCune with the help of Hail as well. CroCune can't really do much in return except maybe fish for that Scald burn or phaze Mega Abomasnow out. Giga Drain 2HKOs both AV and Physically Defensive Slowbro. Specially Defensive Mew proves very hard to muscle past though with slight attack investment, Wood Hammer 2HKOs it with help from Hail and SR damage. Sure that weakness to SR and Fire blows, but isn't that what team mates are for? I say Mega Abomasnow to B+ or even A- (which is unlikely).
Nominating Scyther for C+ / B-! "Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks."
Scyther fits both of these bills. It is actually not that bad, and it is surprisingly not too shabby defensively! It may only have 70 / 84 / 84 bulk after Eviolite with no investment, but that's not too bad considering the fact that this has lolmorespecialbulkthanskarmory a ton of fun toys such as Technician, Swords Dance, and Roost! It has access to a very powerful U-Turn as well! Scyther is also extremely fast, hitting 105 Speed, however it doesn't need all this Speed, it only needs 220 Speed EVs to outspeed base 101 Pokemon (Thundurus-T >_>), this leaves 32 EVs left to go, which goes where? That would be in Special Defense! Just one calc off the top of my mind:
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Eviolite Scyther: 236-278 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can survive this powerful attack! Here is how it does versus S-A Pokemon: S
Mew is 2HKOed after Stealth Rock even if it runs 252/252+, and after a Swords Dance it is OHKOed 100% of the time after Stealth Rock, so it fares ok here. Scyther does fear the burn however.
Aerial Ace, but watch out for the stray Stone Edge
85.2%, 252/252+ Slowbro is 2HKOed by Bug Bite. But +2 Bug Bite will always OHKO 252/252+ after SR.
Suicune fare well, very well in fact. It is only a secure 2HKO at +2 with Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes, while Scyther fears the burn.
All of Sycther's moves 2HKO Thundurus-T, so it cannot switch into it, as Scyther outspeeds it. But Thunderbolt does OHKO, of course.
Aerial Ace OHKOes it at +2, however, it is always OHKOed by Hurricane, Quick Attack 2HKOes it as well. This is if it chooses to run a - nature.
A+
Mega Blastoise never OHKOes with any moves, while Scyther 2HKOes it 100% of the time at +2, even without Stealth Rock.
Non-Scarf variants are absolutely wrecked by +2 Aerial Ace, however Flare Blitz is death.
66.1 - 78.3% is what +2 Aerial Ace does to 252/252+ Florges, meanwhile Moonblast does a measly 31.3 - 37.3%.
Yeah, Hippowdown is a full stop, and while it cannot touch Scyther, it can either Toxic it or simply Whirlwind it away.
Aerial Ace has a nice chance to KO it at +2 after Stealth Rock, and Ice Beam only has a 25% chance to OHKO.
Not even 252/252+ Umbreon can avoid the OHKO after Stealth Rock from +2 Bug Bite.
A
Do I even have to write it out for you?
+2 Aerial Ace OHKOes it, but of course so does Fire Blast.
See Celebi.
If it decides to Shell Smash on you, which is a risk, as Scyther should switch, then it is OHKOed after Aerial Ace + Quick Attack, however Icicle Spear and Rock Blast are a huge death.
Aerial Ace OHKOes it after Stealth Rock, while Brave Bird fails to OHKO in return.
+2 252 Atk Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 148-175 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery. Forretress cannot do anything in return.
See Chesnaught.
Well Thunderbolt does not OHKO, while Bug Bite has a very high chance to OHKO, and if it does survive, it can be killed by Quick Attack.
Yet another 2HKO from Bug Bite, yet you don't even need Stealth Rock! None of Metagross' moves will OHKO in return.
Aerial Ace OHKOes, and surprisingly, Fire Blast does not OHKO Scyther.
Aerial Ace actually does 2HKO, and Ice Beam is a 3HKO.
See Heracross.
See Reuniclus.
Look above lol.
One more time ;).
Physically Defensive Zygarde stops it, however 252/0 and 4/0 are both 2HKOed. Zygarde can't do much to Scyther in return though.
A-
Bug Bite, enough said.
+6 252 Atk Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Aggron: 138-163 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO ):
Aerial Ace does not OHKO after Stealth Rock, but Flare Blitz always OHKOes.
See Absol.
Cannot touch unless carrying Knock Off, which it struggles to make room for.
Aerial Ace 2HKOes it, while Iron Head hits for a max of 50.1.
252/252+ is 2HKOed by +2 Aerial Ace.
Bug Bite hits for a max of 90, which is enough to cripple, and Ice Punch is pathetically weak against Scyther, however the Paralysis is a worry to Scyther.
Surprisingly, 252/252+ is not OHKOed after Stealth Rock, while Knock Off cripples it and Stone Edge destroys it.
Aerial Ace, enough said.
Aerial Ace does a ton to it, but does not OHKO after SR. Ice Beam does a large chunk in return.
+2 252 Atk Technician Scyther Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Smeargle: 259-305 (82.4 - 97.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Smeargle so bulky.
Aerial Ace does a huge chunk and will OHKO with prior damage. Be wary of the Paralysis however.
See Machamp.
Can't touch Scyther but is OHKOed with a bit of prior damage.
See Tangrowth.
See Toxicroak.
And by now, you may be wondering: How the hell is Scyther not S-Rank??? It sounds great, it can 2HKO the majority of threats! Well, sadly, I'm done with good things about Scyther. After a Swords Dance, yes, it's hard to stop. But there's the problem after the Swords Dance. Scyther has very much difficulty setting up Swords Dance because it has a bad typing and so many things can force it out. Scyther also requires Stealth Rock removal and support, which isn't always the easiest. Scyther has issues with bulkier threats too. And, Scythers bulk isn't impressive in the long run, and it has not enough moveslots! It wants to run Swords Dance for power, U-Turn for momentum, Bug Bite for a solid STAB, Aerial Ace for STAB, Quick Attack for weakened foes, and Knock Off for Steels, Pursuit to trap, Roost to heal, etc. It has not enough moveslots and not enough bulk. It requires a ridiculous amount of support from its teammates and can't just click Swords Dance and call it a day. When it all comes down to it, this is Scyther:
Powerful after a Swords Dance
Struggles for moveslots
Needs massive support from teammates
Generally outclassed
It also can't really beat Rock-types, but there aren't any in A-S, along with Steel-types. Its STABs do get nice coverage around the tier, I'll give it that. Overall, Scyther is a good Pokemon, it just isn't that great of a Pokemon.
Scyther is a little slow, by the way. Starmie is obviously OHKO'd by Bug Bite, but it goes first and hurts you badly with BoltBeam. Might not KO you without prior damage, but you're still taking a lot of damage from threats that you OHKO before you can move.
Scyther is a little slow, by the way. Starmie is obviously OHKO'd by Bug Bite, but it goes first and hurts you badly with BoltBeam. Might not KO you without prior damage, but you're still taking a lot of damage from threats that you OHKO before you can move.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Eviolite Scyther: 164-195 (58.3 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I think I forgot to mention it, but I meant to say that it is hard to switch directly into it. Also, here's what's faster (that's relevant) in UU:
Mega Manectric - barely misses the OHKO, but still dent.
Tornadus - Hurricane OHKOes, while Air Slash does not.
Raikou - Does not OHKO with Thunderbolt
Galvantula - Does not OHKO with Thunder
Oh yeah,
252+ SpA Choice Specs Emolga Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Eviolite Scyther: 260-308 (92.5 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
but sadly
0 SpA Emolga Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Eviolite Scyther: 116-140 (41.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Nominating Scyther for C+ / B-! "Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks."
Scyther fits both of these bills. It is actually not that bad, and it is surprisingly not too shabby defensively! It may only have 70 / 84 / 84 bulk after Eviolite with no investment, but that's not too bad considering the fact that this has lolmorespecialbulkthanskarmory a ton of fun toys such as Technician, Swords Dance, and Roost! It has access to a very powerful U-Turn as well! Scyther is also extremely fast, hitting 105 Speed, however it doesn't need all this Speed, it only needs 220 Speed EVs to outspeed base 101 Pokemon (Thundurus-T >_>), this leaves 32 EVs left to go, which goes where? That would be in Special Defense! Just one calc off the top of my mind:
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Eviolite Scyther: 236-278 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can survive this powerful attack! Here is how it does versus S-A Pokemon: S
Mew is 2HKOed after Stealth Rock even if it runs 252/252+, and after a Swords Dance it is OHKOed 100% of the time after Stealth Rock, so it fares ok here. Scyther does fear the burn however.
Aerial Ace, but watch out for the stray Stone Edge
85.2%, 252/252+ Slowbro is 2HKOed by Bug Bite. But +2 Bug Bite will always OHKO 252/252+ after SR.
Suicune fare well, very well in fact. It is only a secure 2HKO at +2 with Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes, while Scyther fears the burn.
All of Sycther's moves 2HKO Thundurus-T, so it cannot switch into it, as Scyther outspeeds it. But Thunderbolt does OHKO, of course.
Aerial Ace OHKOes it at +2, however, it is always OHKOed by Hurricane, Quick Attack 2HKOes it as well. This is if it chooses to run a - nature.
A+
Mega Blastoise never OHKOes with any moves, while Scyther 2HKOes it 100% of the time at +2, even without Stealth Rock.
Non-Scarf variants are absolutely wrecked by +2 Aerial Ace, however Flare Blitz is death.
66.1 - 78.3% is what +2 Aerial Ace does to 252/252+ Florges, meanwhile Moonblast does a measly 31.3 - 37.3%.
Yeah, Hippowdown is a full stop, and while it cannot touch Scyther, it can either Toxic it or simply Whirlwind it away.
Aerial Ace has a nice chance to KO it at +2 after Stealth Rock, and Ice Beam only has a 25% chance to OHKO.
Not even 252/252+ Umbreon can avoid the OHKO after Stealth Rock from +2 Bug Bite.
A
Do I even have to write it out for you?
+2 Aerial Ace OHKOes it, but of course so does Fire Blast.
See Celebi.
If it decides to Shell Smash on you, which is a risk, as Scyther should switch, then it is OHKOed after Aerial Ace + Quick Attack, however Icicle Spear and Rock Blast are a huge death.
Aerial Ace OHKOes it after Stealth Rock, while Brave Bird fails to OHKO in return.
+2 252 Atk Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 148-175 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery. Forretress cannot do anything in return.
See Chesnaught.
Well Thunderbolt does not OHKO, while Bug Bite has a very high chance to OHKO, and if it does survive, it can be killed by Quick Attack.
Yet another 2HKO from Bug Bite, yet you don't even need Stealth Rock! None of Metagross' moves will OHKO in return.
Aerial Ace OHKOes, and surprisingly, Fire Blast does not OHKO Scyther.
Aerial Ace actually does 2HKO, and Ice Beam is a 3HKO.
See Heracross.
See Reuniclus.
Look above lol.
One more time ;).
Physically Defensive Zygarde stops it, however 252/0 and 4/0 are both 2HKOed. Zygarde can't do much to Scyther in return though.
A-
Bug Bite, enough said.
+6 252 Atk Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Aggron: 138-163 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO ):
Aerial Ace does not OHKO after Stealth Rock, but Flare Blitz always OHKOes.
See Absol.
Cannot touch unless carrying Knock Off, which it struggles to make room for.
Aerial Ace 2HKOes it, while Iron Head hits for a max of 50.1.
252/252+ is 2HKOed by +2 Aerial Ace.
Bug Bite hits for a max of 90, which is enough to cripple, and Ice Punch is pathetically weak against Scyther, however the Paralysis is a worry to Scyther.
Surprisingly, 252/252+ is not OHKOed after Stealth Rock, while Knock Off cripples it and Stone Edge destroys it.
Aerial Ace, enough said.
Aerial Ace does a ton to it, but does not OHKO after SR. Ice Beam does a large chunk in return.
+2 252 Atk Technician Scyther Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Smeargle: 259-305 (82.4 - 97.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Smeargle so bulky.
Aerial Ace does a huge chunk and will OHKO with prior damage. Be wary of the Paralysis however.
See Machamp.
Can't touch Scyther but is OHKOed with a bit of prior damage.
See Tangrowth.
See Toxicroak.
And by now, you may be wondering: How the hell is Scyther not S-Rank??? It sounds great, it can 2HKO the majority of threats! Well, sadly, I'm done with good things about Scyther. After a Swords Dance, yes, it's hard to stop. But there's the problem after the Swords Dance. Scyther has very much difficulty setting up Swords Dance because it has a bad typing and so many things can force it out. Scyther also requires Stealth Rock removal and support, which isn't always the easiest. Scyther has issues with bulkier threats too. And, Scythers bulk isn't impressive in the long run, and it has not enough moveslots! It wants to run Swords Dance for power, U-Turn for momentum, Bug Bite for a solid STAB, Aerial Ace for STAB, Quick Attack for weakened foes, and Knock Off for Steels, Pursuit to trap, Roost to heal, etc. It has not enough moveslots and not enough bulk. It requires a ridiculous amount of support from its teammates and can't just click Swords Dance and call it a day. When it all comes down to it, this is Scyther:
Powerful after a Swords Dance
Struggles for moveslots
Needs massive support from teammates
Generally outclassed
It also can't really beat Rock-types, but there aren't any in A-S, along with Steel-types. Its STABs do get nice coverage around the tier, I'll give it that. Overall, Scyther is a good Pokemon, it just isn't that great of a Pokemon.
It has to be said you are really stretching the calculations here just because you can make calcs about something doesn't mean you should. When I start seeing silly things like +6 Aerial Ace against Mega-Aggron or Kyu-B it just dampens the credibility of the post, it is largely an unrealistic number given the obvious lack of defensive typing that Scyther has. I know you want to push for him but there are better ways about this. Moreover, you are overselling bug/flying STAB which honestly has never been the best dual STAB be it offensively or defensively, a good case and point here is the old BW thread that ranked Sharpedo and Yanmega, as they have very similar coverage.
It has to be said you are really stretching the calculations here just because you can make calcs about something doesn't mean you should. When I start seeing silly things like +6 Aerial Ace against Mega-Aggron or Kyu-B it just dampens the credibility of the post, it is largely an unrealistic number given the obvious lack of defensive typing that Scyther has. I know you want to push for him but there are better ways about this. Moreover, you are overselling bug/flying STAB which honestly has never been the best dual STAB be it offensively or defensively, a good case and point here is the old BW thread that ranked Sharpedo and Yanmega, as they have very similar coverage.
That is the point he did not need to go around making a calc for every single mon on the page for the heck of it, I mean a lot of them are largely irrelevant since they just aren't built to take a hit in the first place (e.g. Absol/Darm) that frankly it isn't a feat to flat out OHKO them. Though what is missed here are the appropriate moves in certain match ups, rather than Aerial Ace or bug bite Quick Attack would have served a more appropriate move against scarvers like Darm.
Anyway, leaving that discussion, why's Mega Abomasnow in B? He can deal with the S ranked mons just fine (provided that they have taken prior damage of course). The genies are 2HKOd by Ice Shard and Hail damage. Giga Drain 2HKOs CroCune with the help of Hail as well. CroCune can't really do much in return except maybe fish for that Scald burn or phaze Mega Abomasnow out. Giga Drain 2HKOs both AV and Physically Defensive Slowbro. Specially Defensive Mew proves very hard to muscle past though with slight attack investment, Wood Hammer 2HKOs it with help from Hail and SR damage. Sure that weakness to SR and Fire blows, but isn't that what team mates are for? I say Mega Abomasnow to B+ or even A- (which is unlikely).
I cannot Agree more. Mega-Abomasnow has a great dual Stab (despite giving it a massive amount off weaknesses), that hits many walls in UU super effenctive. As Bruce says Giga drain will always 2HKO Slowbro except when it is running 80 Sdef EVs, assault vest, and a Sassy/Calm nature. If you deside to run Energy ball over Giga drain, you can almost garantie the OHKO against opposing Physical defensive Slowbros. As Bruce proves in his post, none of the S-rank pokemon can take on both Stabs from Mega-Abomasnow
Personally, I think the place Mega-Abomasnow really stands out is Trick room. While it can work outside of Trick room, It can show really useful since it allows Abomasnow to outspeed alot of the things in the tier (save for Shuckle and escavalier). With Trick room support from lets say Slowbro/Slowking, Abomasnow is almost garantie a safe switchin because of they only share one weakness (U-turn will do damage). In trick room It can with a spread of 252 atk and 252 Sp.atk with Quiet/brave nature take on most of the meta. Earthquake will take down Darmanitan, Victini after SR will go down to EQ, Chandelure to an EQ when Mega-Abomasnow is using a Brave nature. the only pokemon that can check Mega-Abomasnow is specially defensive Mew, Umbreon, Florges, (All three takes a lot from Wood hammer) Bronzong and Cresselia. Blizzard hits every pokemon in the meta that does not resist it (Besides those above) for solid damage. 2HKOing most of them
Calcs on different walls/bulky pokemon.
252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 392-464 (99.4 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 330-390 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252 Atk Mega Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 181-214 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 217-256 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hippowdon: 320-378 (76.1 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 139-165 (31.3 - 37.1%) -- 79% chance to 3HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 416-492 (108.3 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Abomasnow Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 408-484 (95.7 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Tentacruel: 232-274 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 336-396 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 278-328 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
However, multiple of the pokemons over can beat Mega-abomasnow 1v1 outside of trick room. Also taking the SR weakness, Total weaknesses (7) and massive recoil from Wood hammer, Abomasnow has problems to stand out and to be effective outside of trick room. Escavalier can counter Mega-Abomasnow even in trick room, since it ''outslows'' Mega-Abomasnow and can OHKO with Megahorn, while EQ only does 34-40% back.
With these flaws and strength, along with his Trick room capabilities, Mega-Abomasnow is worth atleast B+ ranking.
