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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

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omg found the ultimate typo

Anyways, I wouldn't have pointed this out if there wasn't anything bugging me about it - How come is even in D rank? What are their current niches in the UU metagame? Shedinja dies to many things, considering sandstorm damage (Hippowdown), hail damage (Mega Abomasnow), stealth rocks (also Hippowdown), toxic (EVERYTHING), and 5 different move typings (Sucker Punch...). It does have base 90 Attack and access to Swords Dance, but still. I understand D Rank is supposed to mean that they're near useless in whatever tier they're in, but I feel Shedinja just shouldn't have a rank at all. I predict Shedinja to be going further down in the tiers.

A- Rank

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(Pursuit is almost never seen, so Shedinja Walls) Knock Off is a thing
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(Shedinja Walls) Fire Punch is common on scarf sets


B+ Rank

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(Shedinja Walls) I've seen a couple people run Toxic on this thing but that's a shaky bet.
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(Shedinja Walls) Not sure if this thing commonly runs Knock Off or Toxic, so it's on the same boat as Bronzong.
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(Shedinja Walls) Knock Off
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(Shedinja Walls) I do run Toxic on Vap, but that's just me.
B Rank

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(Shedinja Walls) Dark Pulse, but not nearly as reliable.
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(Shedinja Walls) Will-o-Wisp
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(Shedinja Walls) Stone Edge is a shaky bet, but meh.
B- Rank

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(Shedinja Walls) Knock Off
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(If running Rock Tomb/Knock Off for the lols, else Shedinja Walls)
C+ Rank
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(Shedinja Walls) Knock Off
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(Shedinja Walls) Toxic and occasionally Knock Off (Mainly Toxic)
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(Shedinja Walls) Guess it was just a small mistake, but eh.
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(Shedinja Walls) Crunch is a very shaky bet, but it walls its special end reliably.


As unnecessary as this was, I had to prove Shedinja shouldn't even get a mention in UU. Shedinja walls 33 pokemon on this list potentially, but otherwise should not have a mention.

I'd reduce that down to =/< 20 things that Shedinja can wall at least semi-reliably since Knock Off is really that common/viable on half of these mons I listed (that you said was walled) and a few other nitpicks that I've personally seen (And I'm probably still missing a couple things on this list, but this'll suffice). But I do agree with you on the fact that Shedinja is REALLY THAT FUCKING SHITTY (Worse than Dusclops imo) and the only truly notable thing I see it doing is walling the Crocune set which Vaporeon can do about as reliably (Shed sets up SD and Vap can phaze if it has Roar). Lastly, I'm willing to bet (eh, I'll bet my UU rank) that >99.7% of teams have at least three Pokemon that can potentially screw over this damned shed bug's life. This thing should definitely be unranked.
 
I'd reduce that down to =/< 20 things that Shedinja can wall at least semi-reliably since Knock Off is really that common/viable on half of these mons I listed (that you said was walled) and a few other nitpicks that I've personally seen (And I'm probably still missing a couple things on this list, but this'll suffice). But I do agree with you on the fact that Shedinja is REALLY THAT FUCKING SHITTY (Worse than Dusclops imo) and the only truly notable thing I see it doing is walling the Crocune set which Vaporeon can do about as reliably (Shed sets up SD and Vap can phaze if it has Roar). Lastly, I'm willing to bet (eh, I'll bet my UU rank) that >99.7% of teams have at least three Pokemon that can potentially screw over this damned shed bug's life. This thing should definitely be unranked.

Thanks for agreeing, haha. And yeah I also forgot fucking KNOCK OFF exists, but every UU team will have something that fucks this little bug over.

Btw normal blastoise never runs dark pulse





I'm so embarrassed I forgot knock off....
 
omg found the ultimate typo

Anyways, I wouldn't have pointed this out if there wasn't anything bugging me about it - How come is even in D rank? What are their current niches in the UU metagame? Shedinja dies to many things, considering sandstorm damage (Hippowdown), hail damage (Mega Abomasnow), stealth rocks (also Hippowdown), toxic (EVERYTHING), and 5 different move typings (Sucker Punch...). It does have base 90 Attack and access to Swords Dance, but still. I understand D Rank is supposed to mean that they're near useless in whatever tier they're in, but I feel Shedinja just shouldn't have a rank at all. I predict Shedinja to be going further down in the tiers.

Here's a complete list of pokemon Shedinja does well against, and what he doesn't:




PRELIMINARY XY UU Ranking tier list V.1



S Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

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(Flamethrower)
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(Any move, since it learns anything)
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(AV with Fire blast)
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(Shedinja Walls)

A Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

A+ Rank

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(Dark Pulse)
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(Flare Blitz)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Can set up SR, but can't do anything else)
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(Stone edge)
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(Sand Stream)
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(Sucker Punch/Brave Bird)
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(Stone Edge)
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(Fire Blast)
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(Foul Play)
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(V-Create)
A Rank

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(Sucker Punch)
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(Stone Edge/Crunch)
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(Fire Blast)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Overheat)
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(Pursuit is seen commonly, but not always. Either way, Metagross learns Stealth Rock)
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(Fire Blast)
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(Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse)
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(Potentially Shadow Ball, but Shedinja can wall if Trick Room + Calm Mind + Psyshock + Focus Blast is used)
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(Hidden Power Fire)
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(Crunch)
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(Sometimes Air Slash)
A- Rank

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(Head Smash)
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(Power Gem)
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(Flare Blitz)
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(Flamethrower)
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(Shedinja Walls, except for Hidden Power Fire, which is more usually seen instead with Ice)
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(Rock Blast)
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(Brave Bird)
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(Pursuit is almost never seen, so Shedinja Walls)
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(Fire Blast or Stone Edge)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Foul Play)
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(Stone Edge)
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(Shadow Ball)
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(Overheat)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Crunch)
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(Shedinja Walls, and is a Spinblocker)
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(Sucker Punch)
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(Hurricane)

B Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
B+ Rank

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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Spiky Sheild)
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(Stone Edge)
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(Transform + Choice Scarf)
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(Stone Edge)
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(Shadow Sneak)
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(Crunch)
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(Rock Slide)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Sacred Fire)
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(Destiny Bond/Shadow Ball)
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(Toxic)
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(Leech Seed/Ghost STAB)
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(Shadow Ball/WoW)
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(Knock Off/Stone Edge)
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(Shadow Ball)
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(Flamethrower)
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(WoW/Foul Play)
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(Leech Seed)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(WoW/Shadow Claw)
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(Shedinja Walls)
B Rank

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(Hail)
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(Stone Edge/Crunch)
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(Foul Play)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(WoW)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Toxic)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Psycho Boost + Flame Orb)
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(Fire Blast Occasionally)
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(Stealth Rock + Roar)
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(Hurricane)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Air Slash)
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(Dark STAB)
B- Rank

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(Toxic)
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(Stone Edge)
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(Hurricane)
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(Sucker Punch)
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(Brave Bird)
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(Sucker Punch)
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(Shadow Ball)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Sucker Punch)
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(Fire Blast)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Dark Pulse)
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(Sucker Punch)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Toxic, or Shedinja Walls)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Toxic)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Stone Edge)
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(Crunch)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(If running Rock Tomb, else Shedinja Walls)
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(Flamethrower)
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(Crunch)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Usually runs Screens Pivot with only U-Turn, but can wall with a Flying STAB)

C Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
C+ Rank

424.png
(Shedinja Walls)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Crunch)
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(Leech Seed)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Hidden Power Rock)
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(Dark STAB)
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(Shadow Ball)
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(Stealth Rocks, or Stone Edge)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(Head Smash)
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(Flamethrower)
C Rank

689.png
(Stone Edge)
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(Heat Wave)
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(Rock Blast)
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(Dark Pulse)
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(Flamethrower)
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(Crunch)
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(Shadow Sneak)
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(Sucker Punch)
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(Shadow Ball)
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(Foul Play)
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(Fire STAB)
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(Ancient Power)
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(Shedinja Walls)
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(WoW/Ghost STAB)
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(Leech Seed)
C- Rank

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(Toxic)

D Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current UU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.


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(WoW)
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(Fire Punch)


As unnecessary as this was, I had to prove Shedinja shouldn't even get a mention in UU. Shedinja walls 33 pokemon on this list potentially, but otherwise should not have a mention.

I rather not derail the conversation but you're clearly not playing competently judging from your post and I don't think you have any right to reserve any legitamate judgement on Shedinja.

I mean really. Power Gem Ampharos? Nobody uses that but guess what /mold breaker/ means Shedinja loses to Ampharos anyways. Head Smash Meggron? Roar would be a better option. Heat Wave Chatot? Um no Bommburst is illegal with Heat Wave and Chatot has Chatter to use. And then you pop up and say Shedinja walls Swellow. Really now. I would say at least 10-15% of your list isn't accurate at all.

In any case you sound like you're using Shedinja completely wrong. By far the most threatening Shedinja set is the SD set with double priority or baton pass and Focus Sash. It can in a pinch set up on something that would KO it assuming the priority move would KO it back or in the case of Umbreon X-Scissors gets the KO after a wee bit of damage.

One thing you have to be careful of is Gardevoir and Porygon2 who run Trace commonly if they trace Wonder Guard it could be an unexpected GG (Gardevoir isn't that much a problem unless it uses Will-O-Wisp/Shadow Ball and your sash is gone since Shadow Sneak can KO).

Shedinja can ruin most of the things that have a Super effective move against it if it has +2 and a sash up which is easily obtained by switching into like 30~% of the metagame (hello Florges). It doesn't even need a sash only SR to beat Darm and Victini and Chandelure.

Almost everyone I know who plays UU underestimates Shedinja who has a completely unique niche and strong sweeping capabilities. It's hard to go wrong with SD and physical priority with any Pokemon to be honest.
 
shedninja is ass. It can wall crocune. Whoopty fucking doo. Vaporeon can do that, phaze it out, and act as a pivot. Jellicent can wall it and be jellicent and use energy ball (lol) and shit. Toxicroak can wall it into oblivion and fucking countersweep the opponent's team. Gastrodon can wall it and actually do shit. Even frikin jynx can come in and countersweep the opponent with nasty plot. Not to mention, shedninja is killed by every frikin entry hazard in the game. Sorry if I'm.being a bit harsh, but seriously people? Go the fuck back to NU shedninja
 
guess what shedinja can counter sweep too

and as for the hazard issue defog can patch that up llike nothign else, as well as megatoise who can spin against anyone except sometimes sableye

i really don't want to derail this thread so i'll respond to the below post with an edit here

you're wrong you only need one defogger like mew. because you don't need to use defog twice to get rid of hazards lol. you can also use offensive momentum in conjunction with that to keep hazards off reliably. it works for me
 
Shedinja's ability to wall certain Pokemon fully (hello crocune, hello non-toxic florges/vaporeon/whatever) gives him a decent enough niche in the game, even though it's very small. Besides, his mediocrity/shittiness/whatever is pretty much why he's lounging around in D rank at the moment (he would obviously have been a lot better if he didn't die to toxic, hippowdon, abomasnow or knock off). He can also use Baton Pass to scout for the opponent's answer to Shedinja, which is good enough.

You know who should fuck off from D-rank and the list overall? Leavanny. Sticky Web is the only reason you'd ever bother using it but it's illegal with all the other moves Leavanny wants to run, such as Knock Off and Magic Coat. She can setup web once, maybe fire off a swarm-boosted X-scissor or two, before kicking the bucket. At least Galvantula possesses utility as a decent revenge killer if he somehow survives earlygame, Leavanny can't lol
 
Yeah leavanny sucks. Galvantula and even shuckle make better webbers. Sorry leavanny, I loved you in game, but you can go the hell back to NU.

But, I think we can agree that suicune should be A+ rank because it is good but has flaws, which I believe is what defines A rank.

EDIT: Thought this was relevant.+2 252+ Atk Shedinja Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 169-199 (62.3 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yup. Even mienshao with the defenses of a piece of spaghetti isn't OHKOed by adamant +2 shedninja.
 
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guess what shedinja can counter sweep too

I made a couple of mistakes on that list, but I think I lost a couple of IQ points off this


I can't believe we decided to discuss the viability of Shedinja.

4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shedinja: 0-0 (100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rocks or Spikes, Dead on Delivery

I wasn't discussing it's viability, I was saying it wasn't viable at all.

Please thoroughly read through my post next time.
 
That typo is in every single viability thread. It bugs me. And, there's actually more to it.

Should be "noticeable", "than", and "they're"

Actually, the their is potentially correct, if it's referring to their (the Pokemon) worth. In other words, their worth is more offset by the trouble they cause.

Also, I completely agree with dropping Leavanny off the list. It's just straight outclassed at this point.
 
Actually, the their is potentially correct, if it's referring to their (the Pokemon) worth. In other words, their worth is more offset by the trouble they cause.

Also, I completely agree with dropping Leavanny off the list. It's just straight outclassed at this point.
The expression is More Trouble Than It is Worth, so I'm pretty sure more trouble than they are (they're) worth is correct.

And yeah, I agree about Leavanny.
 
This might be kinda off topic but I feel like Shaymin should move to A+. MY reasoning behind this is that Shaymin's LO rest + 3 attacks set is really deadly. Being able to force out Suicune and Slowbro is nothing to laugh at. Shaymin basically gets a free switch in on every water type due to typing, natural bulk, and natural cure to make scald burns go away. Shaymin also sits at solid speed (100) and has a great signature STAB move in Seed Flare along with great coverage. I think that Shaymin is a pokemon that is still seriously overlooked and I hope it gets more recognition in the future but I believe it should be A+.

Celebi should also move backup into A. I think it should move up into A because of it's NP and CM sets over its defensive sets. Defensive sets work well too, but Celebi is a great CM/NP attacker that his with solid Stabs with Earth Power for non STAB coverage and can KO a large portion of the metagame after a boost. Obviously, being weak to dark sucks in a knock off filled metagame which probably hinders Celebi from moving to A+ but I think the shoulda been a grass/fairy type has enough to be A.
 
This might be kinda off topic but I feel like Shaymin should move to A+. MY reasoning behind this is that Shaymin's LO rest + 3 attacks set is really deadly. Being able to force out Suicune and Slowbro is nothing to laugh at. Shaymin basically gets a free switch in on every water type due to typing, natural bulk, and natural cure to make scald burns go away. Shaymin also sits at solid speed (100) and has a great signature STAB move in Seed Flare along with great coverage. I think that Shaymin is a pokemon that is still seriously overlooked and I hope it gets more recognition in the future but I believe it should be A+.

Celebi should also move backup into A. I think it should move up into A because of it's NP and CM sets over its defensive sets. Defensive sets work well too, but Celebi is a great CM/NP attacker that his with solid Stabs with Earth Power for non STAB coverage and can KO a large portion of the metagame after a boost. Obviously, being weak to dark sucks in a knock off filled metagame which probably hinders Celebi from moving to A+ but I think the shoulda been a grass/fairy type has enough to be A.
The sheer irony of this nomination is that the main reason Shaymin even fell down to RU is because Celebi performs better than it in practice.

Edit: Fact of the matter is that Shaymin does not boast a lot of advantages over Celebi at all. Celebi, despite having more weaknesses, far outclasses Shaymin as a bulky Grass-type due to access to Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, better recovery in, well, Recover, and U-turn, while all Shaymin has is Leech Seed, which isn't bad but Roserade kind of does that better regardless while having hazards plus status options as well. Even offensively Celebi has the edge. Shaymin's Seed Flare makes it hard to switch into, and can soften walls for wallbreaking? I'll give you the former, but Celebi can do the latter better with not one, but two boosting moves in Nasty Plot and Swords Dance, which it can Baton Pass away for good measure; Shaymin cannot effectively wallbreak with 8 PP Seed Flare as the opponents switch out of SpD drops. Celebi has almost every coverage move Shaymin has bar Air Slash, which it makes up for by having STAB Psychic, which can OHKO stuff like Nidoking without the need for Life Orb. The extra weaknesses suck, but looking at the Ghost- and Dark-types in the tier, Chandelure, Houndoom, and Honchkrow still beat both of the Grasses, Umbreon is not beating Nasty Plot + Giga Drain Celebi one on one (oh yeah, Nasty Plot + Giga Drain is as good, if not better than Seed Flare + Rest as far as I'm concerned), and Sharpedo's Ice Beam (or flat out Crunch) can hit Shaymin pretty hard anyway.
 
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The sheer irony of this nomination is that the main reason Shaymin even fell down to RU is because Celebi performs better than it in practice.

Room for edit.
Honestly I disagree about Celebi being better than Shaymin. I think the main reason why Celebi is UU and Shaymin isn't (At least for now) is that Celebi can perform Offensive and Defensive roles while Shaymin can only perform an offensive role. However, Shaymin's lack of a dark weakness is HUGE now with Knock off spam everywhere and dark types being extremely popular.

Example: Opponent subs in Honchkrow on Celebi/Shaymin unless they use DG, Honchkrow is gonna survive the attack. Celebi is either then KO'd by SP or if it switches, has the possibility of being killed by pursuit. Shaymin on the other hand had a 40% drop of special defense on switch with seed flare, and also can stay and get a 2HKO 252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Honchkrow: 177-209 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Granted, Honchkrow could also just not switch but it doesn't have to fear switching in on Celebi but does with Shaymin.

Example 2: Shaymin can sub in on Krookodile, not fearing any moves (Crunch is a 3HKO) and can even revenge krookodile while at +2+2 252 Atk Krookodile Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 243-286 (71.2 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 572-673 (172.2 - 202.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Example 3: 'mons with U-Turn. Shaymin obviously doesn't appreciate taking a u-turn to the face, but at least it can survive one compared to Celebi that is 1HKO'd or nearly by almost ALL u-turn users. This allows Shaymin a bit more staying power and makes it so Shaymin doesn't have to switch every time a potential non fire type scarf u-turn user comes in.
252 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 128-152 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mienshao U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 148-176 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO 252 Atk Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 207-244 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Just to show that Mienshao can't 1HKO Shaymin with HJK so it might actually u-turn)
252 Atk Darmanitan U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 162-192 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO (In case Darm just wants momentum and you don't feel like switching for some reason)
252 Atk Victini U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 128-152 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Same as Darm reasoning)
Now compared with Celebi:
252 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 256-304 (75 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mienshao U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 296-352 (86.8 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Darmanitan U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 324-384 (95 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Victini U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 256-304 (75 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Summary: Shaymin's lack of Dark and Bug weakness's help it stand out in allowing Shaymin more opportunities to switch into the battle as well as offer more staying power than Celebi, granting it a better offensive presence and making it harder to revenge kill.


Edit: Also not trying to say that Celebi is bad, just saying that it's better than Shaymin is just not true Q.Q
 

I used my phone to record, since you guys said that it was hard to hear me last time. But it's shitty phone quality, so ya. I would use my headset with its mic, but I broke it so.... I'll buy a new one soon.

Darmanitan and Victini are the new Pokemon to discuss. Suicune goes down to A rank and Mega Blastoise goes down to A- rank.
 
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K so we all basically know what darmanitan and victini do, and usually the choice between them is if you want to get through bulky waters easier or through shit like defensive arcanine (I mean and Darm hits harder with its coverage as well but 90% of the time you're hitting fire type nuke or free momentum anyway).

What's neat about them though, is you can throw both of them on the one team and overwhelm the opponent's fire check/counter with whichever coverage move is appropriate.

Anyway as to the ratings I think they're pretty much spot on. Darm's main attack murders him throughout the match, and you can't click victini's more than like twice before having to switch out. Plus they both have that SR weakness - although it's not like uu doesn't have a lot of spinners/defoggers, clicking spin or defog still drops you a bunch of momentum.

They're still both really great pokemon that you need to have an answer to or they will tear you a new arsehole, but they have those few little flaws that keep them from S-rank.

I will say that I think victini is probably a little bit better than darm in general just because it has the option of going mixed and fucking up some of the physical set's counters, but they're both good enough for A+.
 
K so we all basically know what darmanitan and victini do, and usually the choice between them is if you want to get through bulky waters easier or through shit like defensive arcanine (I mean and Darm hits harder with its coverage as well but 90% of the time you're hitting fire type nuke or free momentum anyway).

What's neat about them though, is you can throw both of them on the one team and overwhelm the opponent's fire check/counter with whichever coverage move is appropriate.

Anyway as to the ratings I think they're pretty much spot on. Darm's main attack murders him throughout the match, and you can't click victini's more than like twice before having to switch out. Plus they both have that SR weakness - although it's not like uu doesn't have a lot of spinners/defoggers, clicking spin or defog still drops you a bunch of momentum.

They're still both really great pokemon that you need to have an answer to or they will tear you a new arsehole, but they have those few little flaws that keep them from S-rank.

I will say that I think victini is probably a little bit better than darm in general just because it has the option of going mixed and fucking up some of the physical set's counters, but they're both good enough for A+.
Yep. Also, they're not just choice scarf users. Victini has a really nu key band set that can obliterate anything that challenges it and darmanitan can run an effective LO set with sheer force. Generally, the current ranking is fine where they are.
 
I moved Mega Houndoom back to S rank. I know this looks pretty bad, considering we just discussed it. But yea, it should have never dropped below S rank. I'll discuss this more in my next kewl video.
After its ranking change I decided to use it again for a while, and all i have to say is that the nasty plot set absolutely destroys everything. It can setup on things like umbreon, and just get to +4 and demolish the entire team. Or even just sacrifice its life with destiny bond to take out a threat to the team. Overall I was Very very impressed. It belongs in S. Also its sun set did work for me with klefki as a partner, so thats something to talk about :D.
 
Darm and Victini...I really like the offensive pressure they apply in general, especially to Florges due to the fact they both resist Fairy, can pretty much murder Florges if she even thinks about staying in, and have U-turn for that great momentum. This really allows both of them to function as wallbreakers for most special setup sweepers who require them gone. On top of that they still have the strength to muscle past defensive Mew (just be wary of some sets with Knock Off or T-Wave) and Umbreon (however neither of them enjoy switching in on a Foul Play) as well as sponge Will-O-Wisps for other physical attackers from walls like Sableye, Cofagrigus, Trevenant (explicitly rare but still a thing), Arcanine, and the like, on top of threatening them if they decide to stay in. Even though Victini's got access to a godly movepool that allows it to give most bulky waters a run for their money with Bolt Strike, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, and Grass Knot, they both can function pretty nicely in typical Fire/Water/Grass cores. Namely, the Fire/Grass aspect of things, since Grass-types like Shaymin and Roserade give the extra punch needed to remove the opposing bulky Grounds/Waters who tend to give Darm and Victini issues.
 
I think Victini and Darmanitan are both fine where they are. While I feel Victini is a bit better due to its ability to go mixed or full special, Darmanitan makes up for this with sheer power and the ability to clean up teams a bit more easily as its main STAB doesn't lower its Speed (and defenses too I guess) Both can be used in a core to overwhelm each other's checks and counters, but it should be noted that you will really need hazard control to ensure they stick around long enough. Basically, both are solid and I think they should remain at A+. Very solid mons, but they do require hazard support to ensure they can do their jobs at optimal capacity.
 
This completely differs from my opinion last gen, but I've "seen the light", so to speak. Victini is incredibly strong in the tier, and if played correctly, can be one of the most threatening pokes for a number of reasons. I'm going to spend the first part of this post doing a bit of a c/c between Darm and Victini (imo Victini is more than just a little bit better), and the second part discussing why exactly I think Victini is such a threat.

Alright, so, the thing about Darmanitan is that he's extremely one-dimensional. Although he technically has a "viable" Scarf, LO, and Band set, the ultimate purpose of all of these sets are the same thing. Hit things hard, hit things fast. There's a reason why his April Fools' Day sprite said "Click Flare Blitz" - that is what you're going to be doing with him 95% of the time. Sure, he gets decent coverage and shares Vic's access to u-turn, but Flare Blitz spam is what makes him good.

Similarly, Victini has V-Create, a tremendously powerful nuke that it too will be using quite a lot. The negative effects of using V-Create are arguably a little less bad than those of Flare Blitz - while dropping defenses and speed may seem like a death sentence for an offensive poke, there are very few offensive mons that can freely switch into a v-create, especially without set knowledge. As such, most the mons that are willing to switch into Victini are bulky and rather slow, and will either get 2HKOd by Victini's moves, or force it to switch - in either case, the stat drop is practically meaningless. By contrast, Flare Blitz puts your HP bar on an even smaller timer than it already is, which, combined with hazard damage and shitty defences, can quickly wear Darmanitan down to the point where it can be picked off by priority.

More importantly, though, Victini is anything but one-dimensional. Although there are certainly other viable sets, the ones that I've seen and used to the greatest effect are as follows: Scarftini, Bandtini, Physical LO Tini w/ GK, Fully Special LO tini, Expert Belt Physical tini w/ GK, Expert Belt mixed tini w/ GK, Final Gambit tini, Charcoal Mixed Trick Room Victini, LO Bulky Physical TR Victini, and Mixed Work Up Victini. These sets aren't just theory either; they're all used, and used quite commonly, especially in higher level play. The element of unpredictability that Victini brings to the table is actually far greater than most pokes with variable sets - even, perhaps, Mew. The way that most Mew sets work are that if you see one move, you know them all, or at the very least, you have a reasonable idea of what can safely switch into it. By contrast, Victini can feasibly run any combination of moves, both special and physical, and with insane coverage. As such, there are very few - or arguably no - safe switchins to Victini without knowing its set, and those that are (read: Snorlax) have dropped precipitously in popularity.

Sure, Victini has its drawbacks. However, these are actually not quite as potent as they might seem. Let's review two of the main arguments as to Victini's weaknesses.

1. Hazards: There's no denying it, Victini does hate hazards. It's a grounded fire type, which means it has the unfortunate property of taking up to 50% from entry hazards, which, combined with Victini's nature as an offensive mon who likes to use U-turn and LO, can rack up very quickly. However, hazard control is by no means restrictive as it was last gen. No longer are people forced to devote an entire teamslot to disgusting crap like Foresight Hitmontop just to get rid of hazards so their Tini can sweep. The amount of viable defoggers and rapid spinners who also carry tremendous damage, utility, or tankiness as well has multiplied enormously - and plenty of them are good partners for Victini, as well. There's a reason we've seen a rise in people using double or even triple fire comps recently - the fire types in the UU tier are some of the most devastating pokes around, and, to compensate, they're weak to hazards. However, now all that's necessary is to run a Forry or a Mew and it's perfectly viable to run a team that can overwhelm the fire counters on the other person's team and easily sweep.

2. Weak to dark "priority" (Sucker Punch/Pursuit): I'd like to address something about Sucker Punch/Pursuit mons that's been bugging me for a while. The implied consensus in most discussions about these mons (especially Honchkrow) is that the guy running Pursuit and Sucker Punch is always going to magically make the correct prediction. Here's actually what happens.

Honchkrow has a choice to make. It can either Pursuit, predicting the ScarfTini to switch out after it killed another member of its team, or it can Sucker Punch, predicting Victini to stay in. Assuming that both of these scenarios are equally likely, we can then see that there are four possible scenarios.
  • Victini goes for the V-Create, and Honchkrow Sucker Punches. Honchkrow kills, obviously, and Honch gets a moxie boost, whereas Victini just goes RIP. Win/Lose
  • Victini goes for the V-Create, and Honchkrow mispredicts and Pursuits. Victini goes first, and Honchkrow dies miserably in a flaming V. Lose/Win
  • Victini tries to switch out, and Honchkrow Pursuits. Honchkrow kills the Victini, gets the moxie boost, and life goes on. Win/Lose
  • Victini tries to switch out, and Honchkrow Sucker Punches (fkn idiot), hitting nothing at all. Victini's team gets free momentum, and Honchkrow is forced to switch out (probably). Lose/Win
Although the relative effects of each of these scenarios is debatable, on a simplistic level the whole "Pursuit-trapping" thing will only work 50% of the time. Given that two of the scenarios involve Victini dying, and the other two involve Honch dying or losing momentum, it's sort of silly to contend that Pursuit-trapping is always a winning strategy for the Honchkrow. As such, this really can't be considered as a "counter" to Victini, given that there's a 50% chance it'll fail miserably and end up killing the Honchkrow instead of the Victini.

At the end of the day, Victini is just incredibly good. There's very little that can deal with it directly as a counter, and the playstyle/offensive counters of hazards and pursuit trapping are shaky at best, especially with the changes in generation six. Because of these things, Victini definitely deserves to be S Rank. Just because a pokemon technically has weaknesses doesn't make its otherworldly strengths any less otherworldly.
 
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