You all need a wake-up call. I'm reiterating the threat of Specs Shaymin NOW.

Bologo

Bologo

Have fun with birds and bees.
is a Contributor Alumnus
Yeah, it seems that people don't think about this little chia pet from hell, but it is truly hellishly strong. Even though the set is in the analysis, I feel that it's time for me to get people using this monster, since I've been testing this ever since I started playing competitive DP. Its usage was far too low for the extreme threat it poses, and it's time people knew what this guy can really do to the OU metagame besides act like Celebi.

Here's the set at a glance:

dpmfb492.png

Shaymin @Choice Specs
EVs: 4 HP/252 SAtk/252 Spe
Ability: Natural Cure
Modest Nature (can be Timid as well)

- Hidden Power Fire
- Psychic
- Rest
- Seed Flare

Now, I saw this set in the analysis when the analyses were still at their prototype, and I was immediately intrigued by this little chia pet hippie.

Shaymin is really bulky already with those 100/100/100 defenses, and even with no EVs invested, it can still take quite a number of hits, especially with 4 resistances to very commonly used types. With Rest on the set (and natural cure), this set is now very hard to kill successfully, and is also very hard to neuter with status since it grows its balls back every time it switches out.

I'd personally recommend using the Modest nature, because 120 BP STAB Seed Flare coming off of 490 special attack is friggin insane, especially when you have a 40% chance to do double the damage the next turn. The speed hasn't proven to be a huge problem for me, but I've tried Timid nature too. The problem with Timid nature is that while you outspeed more, you miss out on many more OHKOs.

Now, Shaymin may have an awful movepool, but it basically has everything it needs for a Specs set. Look at these calcs I dug out of my original post in the threat list thread:

*Keep in mind that these are the standard spreads for these pokemon

Abomasnow - HP Fire to standard 252 HP/160 SDef w/ +Nature - 97.40% - 114.84% (OHKO)

Azelf - Seed Flare to 0 HP/0 SDef 124.74% - 146.74% (OHKO)

Blissey - Seed Flare to standard 148 HP/0 SDef 30.52% - 36.05% (can still get 2HKOed with a defense drop) (3HKO most likely)

Breloom - Psychic to 44 HP/0 SDef 150.74% - 177.57% (OHKO)

Bronzong - HP Fire to 252 HP/96 SDef 51.48% - 60.36% (2HKO most likely)

Celebi - HP Fire to 252 HP/0 SDef 52.72% - 62.13% (2HKO most likely)

Cresselia - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef 48.87% - 57.66% (2HKO most likely)

Donphan - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef 213.02% - 250.78% (OHKO)

Dragonite - Psychic to 0 HP/0 SDef 42.41% - 49.85% (3HKO)

Dugtrio - Do I even have to?

Dusknoir - Seed Flare to 252 HP/180 SDef w/ +Nature 57.14% - 67.01% (2HKO)

Electivire - Seed Flare to 0 HP/0 SDef 106.87% - 125.77% (OHKO)

Forretress - Obviously OHKOed by HP Fire

Garchomp - Seed Flare to 0 HP/0 SDef 87.11% - 102.52% (2HKO - OHKO)

Gengar - Obviously OHKOed by Psychic

Gliscor - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef 97.18% - 114.12% (Most likely OHKO)

Gyarados - Seed Flare to 212 HP/0 SDef 70.83% - 83.33% (2HKO)

Heatran - Seed Flare to 0 HP/0 SDef 20.12% - 23.53% (bleh)

Heracross - Psychic to 0 HP/0 SDef 94.68% - 111.30% (OHKO most likely)

Hippowdon - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef 169.05% - 199.05% (OHKO)

Infernape - Psychic to 0 HP/0 SDef 122.87% - 144.71% (OHKO)

Jirachi - HP Fire to 240 HP/0 SDef 53.12% - 62.59% (2HKO)

Jolteon - Seed Flare to 0/0 104.80% - 123.25% (OHKO)

Lucario - HP Fire to 0/0 101.42% - 119.22% (OHKO)

Machamp - Seed Flare/Psychic to 128 HP/0 SDef 88.39% - 103.97% (2HKO - OHKO)

Magnezone - HP Fire to 172 HP/0 SDef 71.91% - 84.57% (2HKO)

Mamoswine - Seed Flare to 64 HP/0 SDef 216.98% - 255.44% (OHKO)

Metagross - HP Fire to 252 HP/0 SDef 64.01% - 75.27% (2HKO)

Milotic - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef 114.21% - 134.26% (OHKO)

Ninjask - HP Fire to 176 HP/0 SDef 119.54% - 140.39% (OHKO)

Porygon-Z - Seed Flare to 0/0 110.61% - 129.90% (OHKO)

Roserade - Psychic to 0/0 100.38% - 118.01% (OHKO)

Salamence - Psychic to 0/0 w/ -Sdef Nature (Mixmence) 54.98% - 64.65% (2HKO)

Scizor - Obvious OHKO with HP Fire

Skarmory - HP Fire to 252 HP/0 SDef 85.33% - 100.30% (Most likely 2HKO, but possible OHKO)

Snorlax - Seed Flare to 168 HP/220 SDef w/+ Nature 37.57% - 44.14% (3HKO, 2HKO if defense drop)

Spiritomb - Seed Flare to 252 HP/112 SDef w/+Nature 69.52% - 81.78% (2HKO)

Starmie - Seed Flare to 172 HP/0 SDef 204.61% - 240.46% (OHKO)

Suicune - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef 119.55% - 140.59% (OHKO)

Swampert - Seed Flare to 240 HP/0 SDef 295.76% - 348.13% (OHKO)

Tentacruel - Seed Flare/Psychic to 204 HP/172 SDef w/ +Nature 52.27% - 61.65%

Togekiss - Seed Flare/Psychic to 252 HP/252 SDef w/+Nature 23.80% - 28.07% (bleh)

Tyranitar - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef in sandstorm 90.35% - 106.19% (2HKO, but possible OHKO)

Umbreon - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef w/+Nature 50.25% - 59.14% (2HKO)

Vaporeon - Seed Flare to 188 HP/0 SDef 126.56% - 148.88% (OHKO)

Weavile - Seed Flare to 40 HP/0 SDef 106.87% - 125.77% (OHKO)

Weezing - Psychic to 252 HP/0 SDef 108.98% - 128.44% (OHKO)

Yanmega - HP Fire to 0/0 107.67% - 126.84% (OHKO)

Zapdos - Seed Flare/Psychic to 252 HP/0 SDef 38.54% - 45.31% (3HKO)


Ok, so those are all providing you hit with the correct move of course, but that's like any Choice user.

Now, from what I've counted, 32 pokemon in OU can be OHKOed by SpecsShay out of 49 pokemon. That makes me wonder why it hasn't seen much use.

People complain that they can't OHKO Garchomp with Ice attacks, but this 1x effective attack has the ability to OHKO...

Even bloody Blissey is 2HKOed if it comes in and gets its special defense harshly dropped, which happens quite a bit if you ask me.

Really, this guy has cleaned up the game for me on so many occasions it's not even funny. It doesn't even really need the other attacks much. Spout Seed Flare and things will be in extreme pain.

You may think that Specs Celebi is better because it has Leaf Storm, but it's really not, because Leaf Storm halves in strength after each use, which means that Celebi has to switch out way too much. However, Seed Flare can actually get STRONGER with each use until it KOs, which makes this one of the sets where Shaymin is the winner of the two.

Look at the calcs and judge for yourself. I'm just trying to get people to start using Shaymin and hopefully push his usage. Like I said, this set is already in the analysis. I just made this thread to get people's attention about it, since such a great set shouldn't go unnoticed.

Thanks for your time. :]
 
Alright am but unfortunately I got called a hacker for using it on Wifi. =\

Also like to point out that even if you mispredict, seed flare will most likely slaughter anything that's not 4x resist. I've killed a Celebi with it thanks to the drop.

Bologo said:
I'd personally recommend using the Modest nature, because 120 BP STAB Seed Flare coming off of 490 special attack is friggin insane, especially when you have a 40% chance to do double the damage the next turn. The speed hasn't proven to be a huge problem for me, but I've tried Timid nature too. The problem with Timid nature is that while you outspeed more, you miss out on many more OHKOs.
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Modest is better. The only thing Timid would help with is outspeeding Garchomp/Mence but since you have no hp Ice, it doesn't matter. Moest Spec will OHKO Garchomp.
 
Okay, I have two words: Grass type. I think that the weaks outweigh the def and the moves. It can be damaging, but other choice [specs] users just seem to be better. I like the set, but I do not know if it will last with the likes of CSHera and others around to compete with.
 
Hmmm might Sleep Talk be a good option on it? It'd make it a nice sleep absorber that could come in, utilize the extra attacking power, and switch out losing the status ailment. Also Energy Ball, since Seed Flare's PP is low.
 
Janenmori said:
Okay, I have two words: Grass type. I think that the weaks outweigh the def and the moves. It can be damaging, but other choice [specs] users just seem to be better. I like the set, but I do not know if it will last with the likes of CSHera and others around to compete with.
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Obviously you're not going to be switching Shaymin into its weaknesses...that should be common sense. You want to make it so that other pokemon have to switch into Shaymin, and actually switch Shaymin in when it can have the advantage. That's the same thing that people do with Band/ScarfChomp.

Let's face it, a lot of the common Specs users, especially, are either very frail, or have 4x weaknesses that screw them over. Shaymin has neither of those hindrances, giving it a push over many of them.

CScarfHera and CSpecsShaymin are completely different pokemon, why would you even mention him?

@Mr_Goodbar: Sleep Talk is terrible on Choice users. I think it'd probably be pretty good if you were trying a Life Orb set out though.
 
I've always loved Shaymin. Actually Hidden Power Ground is pretty good IMO as it hits those Fire types like Heatran harder. Though you get walled by Bronzong, Skarmory, Shedinja, and a the OU Dragons.

Shaymin is very bulky. Adding the idea that it also has great special attack and speed it can be very threatening.
 
2 things.

SpecsShaymin is an absolute terror; I give this set my 100% support. Also, run Modest for sure. A 40% rate of harshly dropping Special Defense is so awesome.

Also, having Sleep Talk on Choice users is fine lol. You sleep talk the turn they induce you to sleep, and then you switch.
 
Mr.Darkrai said:
I've always loved Shaymin. Actually Hidden Power Ground is pretty good IMO as it hits those Fire types like Heatran harder. Though you get walled by Bronzong, Skarmory, Shedinja, and a the OU Dragons.

Shaymin is very bulky. Adding the idea that it also has great special attack and speed it can be very threatening.
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The problem with ground is it only covers heatran while ice or fire covers a hell lot more. Heatran would wall it but you can't have the best of everything.
 
I've tried HP Ground before. HP Fire is just simply better in every way, plus, there's always the chance that the Heatran could be Scarfed, which makes my whole reason for carrying HP Ground moot, because it'll get fried before it can actually let off the attack.
 
I do like the fact of having Rest in the moveslot, however, because Natural Cure basically gives Shaymin a free recovery once it switches out, thus adding to the survival rating.

I didn't really use Shaymin a whole lot because of the Wi-Fi ordeal, but then again I've been using Wish Gallade once or twice. Still, I can agree that Seed Flare is extremely deadly, but the biggest problem is you have 8 shots with it. Otherwise, that's probably the only hinderance to Shaymin. It is, like many people have stated, very deadly with that 40% chance of lowering your opponent's Special Defense two stages. It's better than Draco Meteor almost for the most part... >_>;

Besides that, I think that you might need some Stealth Rock support for some of those garunteed 2HKOs. You actually might want a Spinner too, despite having Rest on the set. The main reason, and this reason is perhaps the only reason for me to require a Spinner or a Pokemon that is immune to them, is Toxic Spikes. Still, Specs Shaymin is definately a lot better than Specs Celebi is mainly because of Seed Flare and maybe a cut of some of the weaknesses.
 
forbidden said:
The problem with ground is it only covers heatran while ice or fire covers a hell lot more. Heatran would wall it but you can't have the best of everything.
Click to expand...

Well yeah I know that both of those cover more but with HP Ground I can a few things harder not only Heatran but also Houndoom, other Fire types(provided it isn't a Flying type or it doesn't have Levitate), Empoleon, and Drapion. All of those can wall it's attacks but I know we don't see those a lot.

To me Heatran is more threatening than any of the OU Dragons as it's Fire Blasts and Overheats can 2HKO Blissey (Provided it had a Flash Fire boost of course) and if it can do that than what about the other Pokemon...and you can always switch out on something threatening. Though Scarftrans are a problem...

Garchomps (ChainChomp, ScarfChomp, and a few other Garchomps) can outspeed you if you're Modeset and hit with Fire Blast so why stay in to Seed Flare it or use HP Ice? Also if it has a + Speed nature then yeah...

Hidden Powers have their pros and cons. If your team can work around it's weaknesses your fine. With Stealth Rock support Dragonite becomes a 2HKO so that's one less thing to worry about.

I'm no expert at this but I just want to help my Shaymin feel better. =(
 
Mr.Darkrai said:
Well yeah I know that both of those cover more but with HP Ground I can a few things harder not only Heatran but also Houndoom, other Fire types(provided it isn't a Flying type or it doesn't have Levitate), Empoleon, and Drapion. All of those can wall it's attacks but I know we don't see those a lot.
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Houndoom gets annihilated by Seed Flare, regardless of resistance. Same thing with Drapion (when I caught it on the switch with Seed Flare it took about 63%). Empoleon gets wasted by Seed Flare. Heatran's the only one who can stand up to it out of those.

@Janenmori

Shaymin doesn't get Shadow Ball. Even then, it's pretty much always going to do worse damage than Seed Flare since SE Shadow Ball has 160 BP, and STAB Seed Flare has 180 BP.

CS/CBHera may be a big threat, but it has a completely different movepool and such. Heh, just because Heracross is a threat, doesn't mean Shaymin isn't either.
 
Bologo said:
Houndoom gets annihilated by Seed Flare, regardless of resistance. Same thing with Drapion (when I caught it on the switch with Seed Flare it took about 63%). Empoleon gets wasted by Seed Flare. Heatran's the only one who can stand up to it out of those.
Click to expand...

*Looks at calcs*

Damn your right. I know Ice and Fire is better but I just wanted to show some pros of Ground. Guess it's useless. =(

I better soft reset another Shaymin then.
 
I've done a lot of calcs for it before when I was SRing for it, and I agree, it is extremely beastly. What is the general opinion here on using it in WiFi? I know the more experienced/well known battlers probably wouldn't have any problem with it being used - it would more likely be the newer and noobier battlers who would be dicks about it.
 
BAM_UR_DEAD said:
I've done a lot of calcs for it before when I was SRing for it, and I agree, it is extremely beastly. What is the general opinion here on using it in WiFi? I know the more experienced/well known battlers probably wouldn't have any problem with it being used - it would more likely be the newer and noobier battlers who would be dicks about it.
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I think its alright now. More people have started to accept it. 2 Month ago when I used it here on Smogon. It was not accepted and I got a reponse like, why did you have to hack? :(
 
I've considered this but never got a team built around it...

stuff like zapdos can pp waste seed flare pretty quickly, then it becomes useless. although I guess draco meteor has this problem too
 
I've haven't had too much trouble with it yet...

But yeah, the thing is beastly. I tried it, and 2HKOed a Togekiss with Seed Flare and my opponent said WTF!!! I dislike choice pokemon as a whole, but Shaymin is great.
 
I've never used my nice legit shiny Shaymin I traded for on wifi because most people still see it as "hacked" (when it's technically semi-legit imo). At least when that next movie comes out, people will shut up about that matter...

Overall, I've always liked Shaymin (it's just so damn cute as well). Specs could be nice when setting up for an ending sweep, like you mentioned. It is not meant to ever be like Celebi really imo.
 
the Lexx said:
I've considered this but never got a team built around it...

stuff like zapdos can pp waste seed flare pretty quickly, then it becomes useless. although I guess draco meteor has this problem too
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Which is why hp Ice is an option. Though I'm not sure if it 2hkos bulky Zapdoses.
 
Hot Damn...I never, ever realized the bush hedgehog was such a little monster when given just a pair of glasses. Those damage calculation only make me want a HP Fire Modest Min. Great job there Bologo.
 
Idk, Rest, to me, always seemed very weird on Choice sets. It wastes two turns just to heal (switching in and then using Rest), and is forced to switch out.. it's not bulky enough to withstand strong attacks while asleep. I would rather prefer Leech Seed over rest, so the opponent is also forced to switch if he doesn't wanna continuously lose HP. A Life Orb set would be great with Rest on it. I even think Grasswhistle is better than rest on the Choice Specs set.. ;__;

Another thing is Pressure users like Dusknoir, Zapdos, and Spiritomb.. keep in mind that Seed Flare has only 8 PP and it will miss 15% of the time.

But despite all that, I agree that Shaymin is definitely overlooked in the OU metagame, and I've had my fun with it not long ago until I got tired of it. <_<;
 
Specs Shaymin is a beast. @_@ I've used it and loved it, also Hp Ice> Fire may be an option for Dragonite and Mence.
 
Can you run some calcs on attacks against Shaymin coming from those 2HKOed or more? And can you run some clacs for HP [Ice] ? I think Ice helps more than fire, so throw in some calcs using others moves against those that would be taking Fire. Just my few cents.
 
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