There are plenty of good stall/final countdown decks though. If there's another win condition behind the lifepoint gain, then I say go for it.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Media Yu-Gi-Oh discussion
- Thread starter Warped Worlds
- Start date
There are plenty of good stall/final countdown decks though. If there's another win condition behind the lifepoint gain, then I say go for it.
My final countdown deck just uses 3 Final Countdown, a crapload of thinning, and a bunch of cards which are essentially clones for Threatening Roar.
I don't even use Gravity Bind, since it is just asking for Scrap Dragon or Brionac to ruin your day. You don't need healing to win with it. It also won consistently against almost every deck last format, except Samurai.
agreed, i'd much rather see 1 beckoning 2 monster reincarnation while traps can be kept minimal to perhaps a solemn, dustshoot, etc.
i agree with trag although i'm shaky on DAD in LS. also agreed on 1-2 wulf and 2 celestia.
Other than Trag and Dustshoot, what else should I add?
To promote some discussion I thought I'd show my revised proposed banlist.
Forbidden
Archlord Kristya (easy special summon lock, free 2800 beater, can't be killed, retrieves Honest? what could possibly go wrong?)
Black Luster Solider - Envoy of the Beginning (why Konami why)
Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier (I mulled this over for a while, but finally decided that I feel Brio is simply too strong a card and makes OTKs far too easy. also infinite trish loops = bad)
Gateway of the Six (again, I don't like infinite loops, and even ignoring the infinite loop its way too easy to get multiple searches + plays off of this thing in a single turn)
Mind Control (broken card is broken)
Royal Tribute (still broken even considering Dark Worlds)
Trap Dustshoot (I think it's been proved time and again that first turn hand control is bad for the game)
Limited
Grapha, Dragon God of Dark World (Dark Worlds badly need nerfs)
Evolkaiser Lagia (it's like solemn judgment only stronger)
Leviair the Sea Dragon (powerful ability is powerful, and TG makes it way easy to get out)
Master Hyperion (too strong to leave at three copies)
Mind Crush (powerful even without Dustshoot)
Rescue Rabbit (need for vanillas prevents it from being broken on the level of rescue cat, but still needs to be limited)
Tribe-Infecting Virus (roughly the same level of strength as Dark Hole if not weaker, don't see why this shouldn't get a chance at retesting)
Ultimate Offering (ridiculous card, maybe even needs to be banned)
Semi-Limited
Emergency Teleport (Psychics are dead)
Pot of Duality (not broken but makes a lot of decks a little too consistent imo)
Reborn Tengu (Tengu is a stupid card)
Tour Guide From the Underworld (no longer broken but instant Sangan / Leviair / Acid Golem is not cool. Nixing to two kind of forces you to run a third lv 3 fiend like dark mimic lv. 3 or something to get the best effect out of it)
The Gates of Dark World (again, DW needs nerfs)
Unlimited
Dewlorean, Tiger of the Ice Barrier (assuming Brio banned) (with fishborg gone as well future fusion otks are no longer possible, no reason to keep this semi'd)
Magical Stone Excavation (nobody really uses this anymore; two cards is a pretty hefty price)
Primal Seed (assuming BLS banned) (useless without BLS, guess it was only limited in the first place to deter usage)
Also while I'm at it, Karakuri Aggro!
Monsters - 18
2| Cyber Dragon
1| Glow-Up Bulb
1| Gorz, the Emissary of Darkness
3| Karakuri Komachi mdl 224 "Ninishi"
3| Karakuri Merchant mdl 177 "Inashichi"
2| Karakuri Muso mdl 818 "Haipa"
1| Karakuri Ninja mdl 339 "Sazank"
2| Karakuri Ninja mdl 919 "Kuick"
1| Karakuri Strategist mdl 248 "Kenshipachi"
2| Karakuri Watchdog mdl 313 "Saizan"
Spells - 19
1| Dark Hole
1| Foolish Burial
1| Heavy Storm
2| Instant Fusion
3| Karakuri Anatomy
3| Karakuri Cash Cache
1| Limiter Removal
1| Monster Reborn
3| Mystical Space Typhoon
1| Nobleman of Extermination
1| Overload Fusion
1| Pot of Avarice
Traps - 3
3| Reckless Greed
Extra - 15
1| Chimeratech Overdragon
2| Cyber Saurus
1| Ally of Justice Catastor
1| Ally of Justice Decisive Armor
1| Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier
1| Karakuri Shogun mdl 00 "Burei"
3| Karakuri Steel Shogun mdl 00X "Bureido"
1| Naturia Beast
1| Naturia Barkion
1| Naturia Landoise
1| Stardust Dragon
1| Trishula, Dragon of the Ice Barrier
Basic strategy is to swarm but not overextend. Knowing when to go all-out and when to hold back in order to drop a Stardust / Naturia is critical for playing with this deck. Anatomy, Reckless, and Bureido all provide excellent draw power. Reckless Greed takes good timing to play and I generally hold off using it unless I have 2 or 3 or desperately need the draws. Haipa may seem odd to have at two but the muscle and forced position change for Anatomy / Bureido are both invaluable. Surprisingly Triple MST + Heavy was often not enough, so I added Nobleman, a decision I have never regretted. Sideboard can focus more on a defensive backrow as the opponent may decide to side out all of their S/T removal, especially if they Heavied into double Reckless Greed. Very fun deck, I recommend you give it a try, but ALWAYS keep in mind the must attack rule of Karakuris or you could find yourself unaviodably fucked.
Forbidden
Archlord Kristya (easy special summon lock, free 2800 beater, can't be killed, retrieves Honest? what could possibly go wrong?)
Black Luster Solider - Envoy of the Beginning (why Konami why)
Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier (I mulled this over for a while, but finally decided that I feel Brio is simply too strong a card and makes OTKs far too easy. also infinite trish loops = bad)
Gateway of the Six (again, I don't like infinite loops, and even ignoring the infinite loop its way too easy to get multiple searches + plays off of this thing in a single turn)
Mind Control (broken card is broken)
Royal Tribute (still broken even considering Dark Worlds)
Trap Dustshoot (I think it's been proved time and again that first turn hand control is bad for the game)
Limited
Grapha, Dragon God of Dark World (Dark Worlds badly need nerfs)
Evolkaiser Lagia (it's like solemn judgment only stronger)
Leviair the Sea Dragon (powerful ability is powerful, and TG makes it way easy to get out)
Master Hyperion (too strong to leave at three copies)
Mind Crush (powerful even without Dustshoot)
Rescue Rabbit (need for vanillas prevents it from being broken on the level of rescue cat, but still needs to be limited)
Tribe-Infecting Virus (roughly the same level of strength as Dark Hole if not weaker, don't see why this shouldn't get a chance at retesting)
Ultimate Offering (ridiculous card, maybe even needs to be banned)
Semi-Limited
Emergency Teleport (Psychics are dead)
Pot of Duality (not broken but makes a lot of decks a little too consistent imo)
Reborn Tengu (Tengu is a stupid card)
Tour Guide From the Underworld (no longer broken but instant Sangan / Leviair / Acid Golem is not cool. Nixing to two kind of forces you to run a third lv 3 fiend like dark mimic lv. 3 or something to get the best effect out of it)
The Gates of Dark World (again, DW needs nerfs)
Unlimited
Dewlorean, Tiger of the Ice Barrier (assuming Brio banned) (with fishborg gone as well future fusion otks are no longer possible, no reason to keep this semi'd)
Magical Stone Excavation (nobody really uses this anymore; two cards is a pretty hefty price)
Primal Seed (assuming BLS banned) (useless without BLS, guess it was only limited in the first place to deter usage)
Also while I'm at it, Karakuri Aggro!
Monsters - 18
2| Cyber Dragon
1| Glow-Up Bulb
1| Gorz, the Emissary of Darkness
3| Karakuri Komachi mdl 224 "Ninishi"
3| Karakuri Merchant mdl 177 "Inashichi"
2| Karakuri Muso mdl 818 "Haipa"
1| Karakuri Ninja mdl 339 "Sazank"
2| Karakuri Ninja mdl 919 "Kuick"
1| Karakuri Strategist mdl 248 "Kenshipachi"
2| Karakuri Watchdog mdl 313 "Saizan"
Spells - 19
1| Dark Hole
1| Foolish Burial
1| Heavy Storm
2| Instant Fusion
3| Karakuri Anatomy
3| Karakuri Cash Cache
1| Limiter Removal
1| Monster Reborn
3| Mystical Space Typhoon
1| Nobleman of Extermination
1| Overload Fusion
1| Pot of Avarice
Traps - 3
3| Reckless Greed
Extra - 15
1| Chimeratech Overdragon
2| Cyber Saurus
1| Ally of Justice Catastor
1| Ally of Justice Decisive Armor
1| Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier
1| Karakuri Shogun mdl 00 "Burei"
3| Karakuri Steel Shogun mdl 00X "Bureido"
1| Naturia Beast
1| Naturia Barkion
1| Naturia Landoise
1| Stardust Dragon
1| Trishula, Dragon of the Ice Barrier
Basic strategy is to swarm but not overextend. Knowing when to go all-out and when to hold back in order to drop a Stardust / Naturia is critical for playing with this deck. Anatomy, Reckless, and Bureido all provide excellent draw power. Reckless Greed takes good timing to play and I generally hold off using it unless I have 2 or 3 or desperately need the draws. Haipa may seem odd to have at two but the muscle and forced position change for Anatomy / Bureido are both invaluable. Surprisingly Triple MST + Heavy was often not enough, so I added Nobleman, a decision I have never regretted. Sideboard can focus more on a defensive backrow as the opponent may decide to side out all of their S/T removal, especially if they Heavied into double Reckless Greed. Very fun deck, I recommend you give it a try, but ALWAYS keep in mind the must attack rule of Karakuris or you could find yourself unaviodably fucked.
In my opinion, the infinite trish loop should be cut by banning infernity launcher. It's a ridiculous card for infernities, practically a double monster reborn that is searchable. I feel that archetypes shouldn't be allowed to have broken cards just because it allows them to compete at the same level as other decks.
My reactions to Tobes' banlist:
I would also make these additions:
Forbidden:
Morphing Jar -- ridiculous in Dark Worlds, and has an extremely annoying OTK based around it.
Card Destruction -- also ridiculous in Dark Worlds, and potentially ruins any outs your opponent may have.
T.G. Hyper Librarian -- This card lets synchro decks (plants in particular) plus multiple times in one turn. Putting it at one really didn't do anything.
Dandylion -- This card isn't balanced at all. Its tokens are Lonefire fodder and make summoning things like Formula Synchron, Trishula, and Librarian a joke.
Monster Reborn -- I really have no idea why Konami brought this card back.
Limited:
Mystical Space Typhoon -- With Heavy Storm at one, this card is way too powerful to be at 3. With all of the boss monsters around, we need to be able to have a reasonably large backrow to slow them down.
Agent of Creation: Venus -- Is potentially a +3 in one turn. Its shine balls also create the infamous Gachi Gachi Gantetsu and are Hyperion/Kristya fodder. Hitting this would balance Agents tremendously.
Snoww: Unlight of Dark World -- searches absolutely everything Dark World related. Hit this to hinder the deck's consistency.
Judgment Dragon -- I hate this card more than anything in this format. It's at 3, comes out of fucking nowhere, and blows up the whole field. If you mill them all, beckoning light can easily put 3 in your hand, in which case your opponent is probably screwed.
Also, idk but I think it might be a good idea to hit Super Polymerization. Even if it is a -1 in most instances, it's still annoying as hell since you can't negate it, and uses your own monster (that may have taken effort to summon) as fusion fodder.
I would also make these additions:
Forbidden:
Morphing Jar -- ridiculous in Dark Worlds, and has an extremely annoying OTK based around it.
Card Destruction -- also ridiculous in Dark Worlds, and potentially ruins any outs your opponent may have.
T.G. Hyper Librarian -- This card lets synchro decks (plants in particular) plus multiple times in one turn. Putting it at one really didn't do anything.
Dandylion -- This card isn't balanced at all. Its tokens are Lonefire fodder and make summoning things like Formula Synchron, Trishula, and Librarian a joke.
Monster Reborn -- I really have no idea why Konami brought this card back.
Limited:
Mystical Space Typhoon -- With Heavy Storm at one, this card is way too powerful to be at 3. With all of the boss monsters around, we need to be able to have a reasonably large backrow to slow them down.
Agent of Creation: Venus -- Is potentially a +3 in one turn. Its shine balls also create the infamous Gachi Gachi Gantetsu and are Hyperion/Kristya fodder. Hitting this would balance Agents tremendously.
Snoww: Unlight of Dark World -- searches absolutely everything Dark World related. Hit this to hinder the deck's consistency.
Judgment Dragon -- I hate this card more than anything in this format. It's at 3, comes out of fucking nowhere, and blows up the whole field. If you mill them all, beckoning light can easily put 3 in your hand, in which case your opponent is probably screwed.
Also, idk but I think it might be a good idea to hit Super Polymerization. Even if it is a -1 in most instances, it's still annoying as hell since you can't negate it, and uses your own monster (that may have taken effort to summon) as fusion fodder.
stop trying to nerf DW
it's not dominating in OCG and it's not gonna dominate TCG
just too easy to kill with sides unless you get a VERY early virus, and they open with all their DD Crows and you mind-crush, etc etc.
Even if you don't side against them they're not more powerful than the rest of T1.
fuck i sound like a broken record
I might agree with hitting some of the support like Card Destruction (not only turns bad hands into good hands but if i play it with a good hand I win)
No DW player plays Morphing Jar anymore; the advantage gained isn't worth the advantage given to your opponent.
it's not dominating in OCG and it's not gonna dominate TCG
just too easy to kill with sides unless you get a VERY early virus, and they open with all their DD Crows and you mind-crush, etc etc.
Even if you don't side against them they're not more powerful than the rest of T1.
fuck i sound like a broken record
I might agree with hitting some of the support like Card Destruction (not only turns bad hands into good hands but if i play it with a good hand I win)
No DW player plays Morphing Jar anymore; the advantage gained isn't worth the advantage given to your opponent.
Of course they won't. These are just the changes I would make based on my experience with this format so far.
@ Ancien Regimen:
Dark worlds get powerful beatsticks out way too easily, and are ridiculously hard to stop if they have the right hand. This morning I faced a guy who got out Gates, Grapha, and 2 sillvas on the field on the first turn.
lolsilva
7 times out of 10 he had a completely dead hand and lost turn 3.
Play the deck with Silvaa/Gold and tell me how often those things are dead weight in the hand when you need to get a Grapha out and you have no discarder.
7 times out of 10 he had a completely dead hand and lost turn 3.
Play the deck with Silvaa/Gold and tell me how often those things are dead weight in the hand when you need to get a Grapha out and you have no discarder.
I have played with the deck and know how vulnerable it is to bad hands. Though, once you do pull a raven, card destruction, and gates, all hell breaks loose. Getting out 3000 and 2600 beatsticks with no effort at all in one turn just isn't fair.
reactions to proposed banlists
also yeah good dark world decks don't run any more than 2 goldd/silva. they're not useless but they really shouldn't be run in huge numbers - the best use for them is to open up eradicator epidemic virus as an option but apart from that you should stick with beiige if you want an easy SS.
also yeah good dark world decks don't run any more than 2 goldd/silva. they're not useless but they really shouldn't be run in huge numbers - the best use for them is to open up eradicator epidemic virus as an option but apart from that you should stick with beiige if you want an easy SS.
I'm glad Smogon has taken a liking to Yugioh. If anyone wants to Skype with me, add xinphix. I'm on right now.
For the love of god, no, no, just NO.
Dark World does not need any hits, and the idea that it does is ridiculous.
Dark World is doing almost nothing in OCG play.
It's still a fundamentally inconsistent archetype because every one of its plays requires 2 cards to work.
Its ability to drop muscle on the field is comparable to a deck like Scraps, not a deck like Agents. Unless you use inconsistent Lord builds, but those suck (no serious DW deck should run them).
The only thing that makes them tier 1 is its ability to generate pluses, but they simply don't have the power to create massive field presence with said pluses. They're not as good as Plants or Agents, absolutely not. And I believe that you shouldnt hit a deck for being "just" T1.
It's hype.
Jesus Christ, the hype around Dark World is getting absolutely ridiculous.
Dark World does not need any hits, and the idea that it does is ridiculous.
Dark World is doing almost nothing in OCG play.
It's still a fundamentally inconsistent archetype because every one of its plays requires 2 cards to work.
Its ability to drop muscle on the field is comparable to a deck like Scraps, not a deck like Agents. Unless you use inconsistent Lord builds, but those suck (no serious DW deck should run them).
The only thing that makes them tier 1 is its ability to generate pluses, but they simply don't have the power to create massive field presence with said pluses. They're not as good as Plants or Agents, absolutely not. And I believe that you shouldnt hit a deck for being "just" T1.
It's hype.
Jesus Christ, the hype around Dark World is getting absolutely ridiculous.
welcome to smogon, atem :kongler:
Banning any of those would literally kill the deck. That is not good for a healthy diverse metagame.
Also, I will reply to each point on the banlist later. Hello Pharoah Atem, I think I saw you on Duelistgroundz.