Metagame ZeroUsed Metagame Discussion

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As a council member, I'm always curious about our playerbase's opinions and mindset when team building or when they research the tier and find information that changes our perspective on viability. I'd like to ask you all a question.
:mehowth:
What is your favorite ZU pokemon (post April drops) and do you think it deserves the position it has in the tier?
 
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Hey guys!

I feel a lot of what I could say about Musharna is already been said, but I'm going to give it a shot...

While Musharna suspect might feel a little odd, especially when a lot of people asked for other suspects like Frostom, I can assure you, it is the right one to do at this moment to keep ZU healthy. Musharna might not feel like an absurdly versatile mon, considering it almost always go with a Physically defensive spread, STAB move, Calm Mind and a recovery move, however even with just a different last move, can easily check a lot of mons that could theoretically deal with Mushy. Both Signal Beam and Dazzling Gleam are really amazing coverage options for Musharna, allowing it to beat things like Liepard and Shiftry that usually are more than enough to deal with every other psychic type in our meta. Heck, even Barrier will allow Mushy to withstand a lot of Physical STAB dark moves, considering that with a Z Crystal, Knock Off will always have a mediocre base power, and we know that something might be broken when it can even setup without that much trouble into something that can have a STAB super effective move.

Sure, each Musharna set does have some answers, but like Jynx, some of those are pretty iffy against some other sets that Mushy could run, and against the rest of the meta in general (please, don't tell me Grumpig should always run Taunt and Liepard should always be banded because they are showing overcentralization and sometimes they are kinda hard to fit into a team), which makes fighting against it a really pain in the ass, considering you not only need to get right predictions in a lot of 50/50 situations but also need to scout which set is Mushy using, and a lot of times, giving Musharna time to setup is only going to make you lose. Like a lot of my fellow council members said, there is not an ABSOLUTE answer to Musharna at all in our tier (no, Taunt Grumpig, Band Liepard and Swords Dance Shiftry/Pawniard are FAR from absolute options) and we shouldn't wait until something drops to check it because in that case we can just resuspect it.

So... please, let's just ban this one...
 
With the final days of the Musharna Suspect quickly coming, and the fact that i get to vote in it, i figured i might as well drop my two cent's on the issue for whatever its worth.

First, let me get right to the point, i will be voting NO BAN. I cant respond to every pro ban argument since that would take too much time. So ill just write a generic piece on why i'm not voting ban
On Paper
Now you might think i disagree with all the pro ban arguments for Musharna, but really i agree with most of them. Can Mushy run other sets that take care of checks to its other sets? Yes, it can, and so forth. I haven't played ZU long enough to one hundred percent know the meta, so I assume the Calc's, arguments and ideas of the Council to be valid. This however is where i run into issues, because on paper most of the Musharna opinions seem to be true and make sense. In practice however, its just not.
In Practice
I have played PS long enough to know a supposed "Metagame Warping", "Over centralizing" and "Unhealthy" threat, and Mushy just doesn't seem to be that. Its not spammed a lot and its not found on every other team you face which is baffling to me. Shouldn't a Mon that's touted as all the above be used on every team for easy "free wins"? It just seems like one of those threats in every tier that you should keep in mind. I understand Usage=/=Viability/brokenness, really only results and game play can show how good a Mon is so let's do that. A good example is the the ZU Open Quarterfinals, where every player that used a Musharna on their team ended up losing that match. The ZU open in general solidified that having a Mushy on your team doesn't automatically mean you win, and not having one doesn't mean you auto lose. Now i wish i could give some wise metagame knowledge on why Mushy just isn't spammed everywhere or why its underwhelming in actual game play, but i cant since it could be any number of things. Maybe people are getting used to it, maybe people are finding how to play around, maybe the metagame is just starting to adapt. I don't know.

I find it underwhelming in the metagame shattering department not so much in other things. Its a very good and unique mon that you should keep in the back of your mind.

Lastly i just want to say that i definitely don't think the metagame has finished growing and adapting to Mushy. From what i've heard Mushy was fine until the Barrier set which just caused a domino effect with its sets. Musharna didn't become broken in a day, and as such i don't think its very reasonable to expect the metagame to adapt to it in a day. If Mushy truly ends up being the Metagame shattering threat its hyped as, it will definitely start showing and then it'll become unquestionable down the line that Mushy is unhealthy. If we ban it however we lose a very unique and interesting Mon that has a lot to offer to the metagame, and sets a bad precedent to ban things that just seem broken instead of letting said Mon actually prove itself to be broken in actual competition.
 

5gen

jumper
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I figured I would pick apart my post from earlier in the thread since admittedly my opinions have changed over the course of the suspect.

Musharna is an extremely unhealthy aspect of the meta. Before the tier shifts we already had plans to suspect it and losing two of our best breakers in Stoutland and Ursaring gave us a lot more incentive to suspect it.
The pre-shift metagame held a largely different dynamic for playing around Musharna simply because of the Pokemon that were present. Most notably, Stoutland and Ursaring were the primary ways that one could use to muscle past Musharna. Initially I had thought that the loss of these two breakers would leave the tier with little to break through Musharna. As stated heavily in this thread, the CM+Barrier+Rest with Psychium Z is able to wall physical attackers all day, or so you'd think. Honestly I love and hate Rest on Musharna. Some games you win outright because you can't be Toxic stalled and nothing can KO you after x amount of boosts. Other times you're giving your opponent two free turns to play around Musharna. In a metagame with SD Lycanroc, SD Pinsir, NP Liepard, and more, it can be very troublesome to give free turns to your opponent.

I agree the timing of the suspect is somewhat awkward with a large tier shift. However, waiting on the tier to develop from these shifts and not suspecting it would be counterproductive in this case because the community strongly feels that Musharna is broken and these drops don’t make it any less broken. Liepard faces the same issues as all our other Dark-types in that it loses to coverage (Dazzling Gleam or Signal Beam) and Crustle drops to Z-Stored Power sets/has a tough time breaking through Barrier sets. Ultimately, there is no foreseeable way that the tier could develop to deal with Musharna based on losing our two best breakers in Stoutland and Ursaring, as well as these drops not dealing with Musharna well enough. Furthermore, an argument can be made that losing these two Pokemon increases the usage of Ghost types, which is basically Misdreavus and Dusknoir. The former gives Musharna trouble and the latter loses to it outright.
Others in the thread and discord have stated how the metagame hasn't had enough time to develop around Musharna after tier-shifts and I would agree. Very early on I believed that the drops could not stop Musharna. Liepard loses to coverage, Crustle, Dugtrio, and Lycanroc are walled by Barrier, and Lurantis and Shuckle are more nuisances to it than anything. I still stand by my belief that they do not stop Musharna. However, through this suspect test I've come to realize that Musharna cannot be stopped through its sheer versatility, but that doesn't make it broken imo. Megazard summed it up pretty well in the ZU discord, "and like i get there's a very fine line between can beat all its checks and will beat all its checks, but ive rly never felt that it was unfairly stronger than some of the other dumb stuff in the meta. mush is always gonna be pressured and has a lot of checks that yes, work conditionally but there isn't really that removal of skill factor imo." From my testing and matched I've seen, Musharna has some notable flaws it suffers from. For one, non-Barrier or Rest sets are very easy to chip down and Moonlight is fairy easy to stall out. Secondly, mono-STAB Musharna is completely walled by Dark-types. While it is true that if they cannot boost their Attack or Special attack they can be stalled out, Musharna is also continually stalled down. Thirdly, while Z-moves allows Musharna to play around its checks they are a one time use. This becomes an issue against Encore and Taunt users to an extent because after the Z-move is burnt Musharna is still affected by those moves. The fourth flaw is Musharna is not a standalone sweeper a lot of the time. Musharna has its checks and needs support to play around them. This goes back to the argument of versatility and how Mushy's sets have varying things it can/cannot beat.

I believe these flaws are exploitable in this meta due to Musharna's effect on the tier. Xayah and I were talking about Musharna and for me what it boils down to is "Musharna is an extremely effective Pokemon that has centralized the meta to the point where its flaws are accounted for, but is it so centralizing and uncompetitive that it needs the boot?" Taunt Grumpig, SD Pawniard, and Taunt Probopass are all achieving their high usage/effectiveness simply because of Musharna. This lead me to ask the question "has the meta naturally accommodated for it through these tier shifts or is it completely Musharna forcing the use of Pokemon like Liepard, boosters, etc (it obv forces the use of Taunt Pig)?" No ban arguments in this thread, on discord, and on PS have become fairly central around whether or not the meta organically prepares for Musharna. In my opinion the metagame does naturally prepare for Musharna because of the drops but not the extent where Musharna isn't broken. Musharna has centralized the metagame around it like no other mon does rn.

Ultimately, I don't feel Musharna is a healthy component in the tier. Is it manageable? Yeah I think it is but it prevents metagame growth as seen with how the current metagame is like. On a personal note, I admit the first time around I was very definitive with Mushy and my insight on post-shifts meta wasn't strong. I'll be voting ban on the basis on Musharna being an unhealthy and centralizing force on the metagame.

With that the Musharna suspect test is over. Megazard has won the fifth and final suspect tour today. Congrats!
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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Only team I used that's not outdated, it's not /amazing/ but solid, got an interesting kind of build that I don't really see other people using, so depending on how you feel, you can take it for a sample or just as an interesting build a semifinalist posted. I spammed this to win the suspect tour and several games in the open (although Jynx used to be over Simisear) so at worst it's interesting to see. The main balance core here is Servine+Poliwrath+Golem+Bouffalant, which really ended up being a lot of fun. It's absolutely got weaknesses and those weaknesses are mainly what this team struggles against (certain random Toxic mons like Bronzor or Silvally-Water or Tangela, Vigoroth, Wisp Rotom-F or s, CB Monferno, Chatot, certain specific Mush sets), but overall it provides a good offense and defensive start. Tank Wrath is also totally fine, just because it's the old PU/NU set doesn't mean it doesn't work nicely. The other couple of slots just go to the breaker and sweeper, a couple of semi-interchangeable mons that can preferably break some of those weaknesses (especially Tangela) but didn't matter too much to the overall composition (although having Soundproof certainly helps with Chatot). Mr. Mime hasn't really changed since it's an absolutely devastating wallbreaker and one of the reasons I don't quite get why so many Silvally are so damn slow, Simisear is replacing Jynx because it used to be some hot Psychic Spam and Z-Sunny Day is... fine, it's not amazing, you really gotta weaken things like Grumpig and Gabite but it does a solid job. It's a team that needs some solid predictions and very careful Bouffalant usage since it gets chipped fast and Pursuit is really important, but overall I felt like it was at least interesting and unique enough to share here and write out this thick description.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-734328429 vs Chrisloud Jynx meta part 1 (open)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-734335444 vs Chrisloud Jynx meta part 2 (open)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-736683777 should have won vs Fille (open)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-739060692 :psysly: (low tier stadium)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-739240040 vs QT when I could actually beat him (suspect tour finals)
Simisear @ Firium Z
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Nasty Plot / Hidden Power Ice

Servine @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Defog
- Synthesis
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 96 HP / 252 SpA / 160 Spe
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Toxic
- Ice Beam
- Vacuum Wave

Mr. Mime @ Life Orb
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dazzling Gleam
- Focus Blast
- Psyshock

Golem @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 224 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch

Bouffalant @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Pursuit
- Earthquake
- Facade
 

Xayah

KA-KOOO!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
11 out of 12 eligible Musharna voters have now voted and the result can no longer be changed by the final vote.
Ban: 73% (8 votes)
No Ban: 27% (3 votes)

As such, Musharna has been moved to ZUBL. Thank you all for participating and please continue enjoying the tier.

If you would like to see who voted what, check here:
5gen - Ban
Aaronboyer - No Ban
Calucha - No Ban
Diagnostic - Ban
Froasty - Ban
HJAD - Ban
Megazard - No Ban
RawMelon - Ban
Rennyjesus - Ban
Sam I Yam - Didn't vote
Solar Flare - Ban
Xayah - Ban
 
Hi!

As celebration for OMOTM (and Mushy ban), I'll be dropping one of my squads that has put in a ton of work and is a really great team, built around two of the best Pokemon in the tier, Tangela and Lycanroc.

Lycanroc @ Lycanium Z
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Accelerock
- Drill Run

Tangela @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 1 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Sleep Powder
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Rotom-Frost @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Trick

Mawile @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Pain Split

Grumpig @ Mago Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recycle
- Substitute
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

Liepard @ Black Glasses
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch


Extremely powerful team here, featuring some of the best Pokemon in the tier and Pursuit support from Liepard. Hope you enjoy using this team :))
 
Will showdown show Zu in teambuilder because in gen 6 there was a problem about FU (ı mean old ZU) that players need to look in forum in order to make teams.(ı don t think it is necessary but ı think it should show it in teambuilder because of accessing new players more easily and perhaps it will make tier more popular?)
 

Xayah

KA-KOOO!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Will showdown show Zu in teambuilder because in gen 6 there was a problem about FU (ı mean old ZU) that players need to look in forum in order to make teams.(ı don t think it is necessary but ı think it should show it in teambuilder because of accessing new players more easily and perhaps it will make tier more popular?)
While this would obviously be fantastic, the PS teambuilder only supports official tiers, which ZU is not. Thus, it will not show up, sorry
 
While this would obviously be fantastic, the PS teambuilder only supports official tiers, which ZU is not. Thus, it will not show up, sorry
I mean can t showdown show zu in teambuilder during May ı know it is not official but what am ı trying to say was when FU selected as omotm there was no FU in teambuilder so building teams were hard for newer players(yeah they can just look in forums but ı doubt %70 percent of people do that [ı am sorry if it sounds too offensive ı meant players in showdown who just uses teambuilder in showdown and don t care to look forums] so accessing more players will be harder if ZU won t get Teambuilder at least a month.
 
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Xayah

KA-KOOO!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I mean can t showdown show zu in teambuilder during May ı know it is not official but what am ı trying to say was when FU selected as omotm there was no FU in teambuilder so building teams were hard for newer players(yeah they can just look in forums but ı doubt %70 percent of people do that [ı am sorry if it sounds too offensive ı meant players in showdown who just uses teambuilder in showdown and don t care to look forums] so accessing more players will be harder if ZU won t get Teambuilder at least a month.
I assume the Validate feature will work for ZU during its time as OMotM, but otherwise there won't be anything available I believe.
 
Congratulations in any case to those who manage this format, which was not even listed on Smogon two months ago and became OM of the Month the first time. Given the high number of voters, there is no doubt that this format will be well try-hard on PS! all the time of May. And as for the PU in gen 6 and the RU in gen 5, the ZU will probably be the next official tier (this is the natural path), certainly during gen 7.

To check, I compared the uses of PU in March with the "Pokemon that are PU by use" (I recreated the list on my side) and the ZUBL in introduction:
• Spiritomb and Swanna are not listed;
• Magmortar and Passimian, respectively PUBL and NU, are still present;
• Crabominable and Ludicolo are not "PU by use" and should be placed with ZUBL.
Otherwise, nothing wrong.
 

Aaronboyer

I'll give you my world
is a Contributor to Smogon
Congratulations in any case to those who manage this format, which was not even listed on Smogon two months ago and became OM of the Month the first time. Given the high number of voters, there is no doubt that this format will be well try-hard on PS! all the time of May. And as for the PU in gen 6 and the RU in gen 5, the ZU will probably be the next official tier (this is the natural path), certainly during gen 7.

To check, I compared the uses of PU in March with the "Pokemon that are PU by use" (I recreated the list on my side) and the ZUBL in introduction:
• Spiritomb and Swanna are not listed;
• Magmortar and Passimian, respectively PUBL and NU, are still present;
• Crabominable and Ludicolo are not "PU by use" and should be placed with ZUBL.
Otherwise, nothing wrong.
These things are the way they are for one of two reasons
1) They were banned as apart of a suspect test midway through the month which accounts for why they still have a percentage, and have a percentage below 3.41% (Magmortar and Passimian follow this)
2) You are not using weight stats when calculating. Antar accounts for weighted averages when he pulls PU's stats every cycle. (Spiritomb, Swanna, Crabominable and Ludicolo are in their correct places.)
 
Hey guys, to commemorate OMOTM status and the new ladder, pinktidal, Diagnostic, and myself will be holding a Teambuilding Workshop in the ZU Room on Pokemon Showdown. You can join the room by clicking the link or typing "/join zu" in any chat on Pokemon Showdown.

The workshop will be held on May 2nd at 7PM GMT-4, which is tomorrow.

We plan to go over things including:
  • Basic teambuilding strategies and frameworks in ZU
  • How to effectively manage the various offensive offensive and defensive threats you might encounter
  • The most recent drops and how they fit into the metagame
  • How to combat various team archetypes found in the tier, including Offensive, Balance, and Stall teams
We will also be building some teams in front of everybody while we share our thoughts, and at the closing of the workshop our helpful roomauth will be able to critique your own teams that you show us and hopefully improve them.

Hope to see you there!
 
hi guys!

new to this tier, and feel quite fun to play it

anyone has a team that abuse kadabra?
rly like to try this mon out
 
Hey there, welcome to ZU. Your team looks interesting. I’d recommend looking at the Viability Rankings on the first page of this thread for sample sets. This is because Servine, Combusken, and Rotom-Frost have more optimal and effective sets they can run. Choice Scarf Rampardos is another cool pick but I feel it can be replaced by offensive SR Golem with EQ/Stone Edge/ Sucker Punch (set is linked on the VR). This is because the team lacks Stealth Rock and a Normal-type switch in. Furthermore, having two Electric-types is generally extra and redundant, so I’d recommend replacing Electivire with Black Glasses Liepard. A set of Knock Off, Pursuit, U-turn, and Encore provides a lot for this team. Most notably Liepard helps you weaken teams, whittle down defensive Pokemon, trap Grumpig who walls both Combusken and Rotom-Frost, provides a much needed revenge killer, and deters setup from Pokemon like Lycanroc and Vigoroth.

Regarding Yanma, it simply has too small a niche to play in this metagame. Yanma requires a ton of support and performs much worse than other Bug-types such as Butterfree or even QD Masquerain (who’s a mediocre set in itself).
Thanks for the help but I think I'm just gonna stick with my team. It's working out well so far i'll see if i can make it better i guess
 
anyone has a team that abuse kadabra?
rly like to try this mon out
sash 4-attack kadabra can fit virtually anywhere as a revenge killer
you can tailor it to your coverage needs pretty well, psyshock/gleam/eball/sball is perfect neutral, and signal beam/hidden power are good if you want something specific handled
 
I think trick room is going to be broken in this tier, lots of trick room setters, and several abusers like wishiwashi, not to mention regigigas and slaking may have potential in this meta, considering they have enough bulk to tank these fools.
 
Mawile @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Play Rough
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Grass Knot

Poliwrath @ Waterium Z
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Focus Punch
- Substitute
- Bulk Up

Rotom-Frost @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Blizzard
- Trick

Sawsbuck @ Life Orb
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Horn Leech
- Jump Kick
- Wild Charge
- Swords Dance

Silvally-Ground @ Ground Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Rock Slide
- Swords Dance
- Defog


A team I made a few days ago, and it's served me well. Lots of setup + Rotom-Frost and Frogadier. Haven't had any major problems with stall or balance yet or anything, but since I'm still unfamiliar with the meta I've gotten fucked up by stuff like Torterra because I wasn't prepared. Pyuku is also annoying, but HP Elec Frogadier is good for this.

Would love to hear thoughts.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
So i'm new here, but I've been begging for a tier below PU for a long time. What are the odds of ZU becoming official.
Maybe some time down the line. The way the tier is progressing is incredible and I’m thankful for everyone who’s a part of it. In the foreseeable future though I don’t think we will pick up “official” status because we just became an OM recently.
 


Lapras @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb / Hydration
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Perish Song
- Rest
- Ice Beam / Rain Dance

Perish Trap Lapras. With its good bulk, it can trap and remove passive walls that can't do much to it, paving the way for a teammate to sweep. Ice Beam should be run in the last slot to make Lapras less passive, but Rain Dance + Hydration is also an option to wake up the same turn of using Rest.
 
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