Metagame ZeroUsed

I loved PU of the last generation, but it is not the same anymore this gen. ZU definitely comes a lot closer and I am enjoying the hell out of it, eventhough there are some stronger mons I am surprised to see down here for example pinsir, rotoms, torterra, poliwrath, silvally, electivire, shiftry, etc., tho, this is just a sidenote.

My actual reason to post is my ultra offensive team, heavily focused on all out attacking with atk and spa and spe, which sort of style I enjoyed in last gen PU and now enjoy again.

Electivire @ Life Orb
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Wild Charge
- Cross Chop
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower

Basculin @ Waterium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet
- Ice Beam
- Zen Headbutt

Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Leaf Storm
- Defog

Simisear @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Gunk Shot
- Superpower
- Grass Knot

Silvally @ Life Orb
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Return
- Flamethrower
- Pursuit
- U-turn

Golem @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Sucker Punch
- Stealth Rock
 
Last edited:
So, uh, I don't know if this is just because I'm garbage or not, but I just got swept by a ninjask that used Z-Sand attack to raise its evasion so I couldn't hit it. Don't know if that's something to look at or not but just wanted to bring it up.
 
Got swept by it too with two different teams - what's a reliable way to deal with this? Sure felt stupidly broken because of the luck factor.
Golem hard walls every Ninjask that isn't SD Z-Dig, which this isn't since it's Z-Sand Attack. Similarly, Rotom-Fan easily takes it on too. Lycanroc doesn't switch in but does easily revenge kill as long as you don't get super unlucky (Accelerock). Copycat Liepard annoys it greatly, Mawile walls it, Muk walls it, Probopass walls it, Pyukumuku stalls it out.

PS: post is complete chaos because I'm busy
 
Before to make other nominations, I would like to give my feelings about Lycanroc S. I don't have a strong opinion on this. As long as Torterra is in life in the opposite team, it is a 5vs6. In every other situations, Lycanroc is just dumb, able to get rid of its check/counter with a little chip damages (even pyuku/poliwrath). The players are adapting their team to Lycan actually so I would like to wait before giving an opinion even if I have to recognize it centralizes a lot the meta.

Few other nominations I forgot in my precedent post :
B -> B+
It's a good alternative to Metang in balanced teams due to the dangerousity of torterra and lycanroc actually. It works effectively in stall too. The major flaw of bronzor stays its passivity especially if you pick bad rolls with psywave, Liepard is annoying too. However a lot of teams struggle to get rid of it and it helps a lot the teambuilding of bulky playstyles. A rise is deserved.

C+ -> B-
The ban of mushy gave to this green blob a right place to shine. CM signal beam is the classical set which allows to kill liepard/shiftry on the switch, Acid Armor is terrific against team without dark types, someone plays it even in stall with a CM/toxic set. Duosion is the little brother of Musharna, it is a crucial wincon painthful to deal with for teams without specific answers. Even if it is less brainless than the big brother due to a strong weakness to koff and the lack of stored power, Duosion is a threat not to neglect when you build a team.

C+ -> B-
Gabite is a good rocker to bulky offenses : fast, bulky and has an active presence in the team. What makes it particulary good is its type which allows to check Lycanroc which is quite difficult in offense, block volturn too thanks to rough skin and handles annoying stuff such as Rapidash. QT uses it in several battles for the ZU Open if you want to see its efficiency in action

C -> C+/B-
Credit to Diagnostic to this. Mareanie is very decent right now. It is an answer to Monferno, BD Poliwrath, Muk, special Combusken, Bellossom, no Z-Move water/fire/taunt Simipour/Simisear, Huntail, etc. Toxic Spikes are fine against a lot of playstyles and force Silvally to come if it doesn't want to be toxiced. Even if Mareanie isn't the bulkier mon ever, it helps a lot the teambuilding right now by the support it gives


B -> B-
Murkrow has the ability to be threaten against unprepared teams. However, it requires a support which isn't easy to give, only a team centralized around its utilisation makes it enough effective against the meta. The Z-Move set which is the best one simply lacks of power to one shot a large part of offensive mons faster even at +2. The introduction of Lycanroc doesn't help it either because it is a mon which needs the Z-Move and which is able to one shot Murkrow with its priority and handles Sucker Punch/Brave at +2. Liepard is annoying too. Even if it stays a strong and threaten mon, Murkrow requires a too high support actually and doesn't hit hard enough to be B rank.

B- -> Lower
Leavanny suffers from competition with Smeargle, Masquerain to a lesser extent and now Shuckle. The only reason it has to be played is it is less passive or slow than the others but with the lack of stealth rock. That's a small niche (and webs aren't amazing right now). A rank in C is more adapted to its function and impact in the meta.
 
Last edited:
Got swept by it too with two different teams - what's a reliable way to deal with this? Sure felt stupidly broken because of the luck factor.
Defensive Pokemon work, obviously, since they don't rely on hitting. Zmoves do not check accuracy, so that works, as does simply using an offensive tank that can eat 1-2 hits (such as bulky silvally or golem or the like, as does simply phasing it such as with roar gabite.
 
First off, I want to thank everyone who joined today and especially Durza, Diag, and all the voices in the chat who helped run the workshop today. It was very fun and a good learning experience for everyone involved.

The first half of the workshop focused on common team archtypes in ZU and teambuilding fundamentals, then we looked at common cores in the metagame. The latter half of the workshop included building a team around Combusken+Liepard. Full team looks like this:


The aim of the team was to have a supporting cast to Combusken and Liepard, two Pokemon who are very good at breaking down each other's checks. Liepard is able to Pursuit trap Grumpig for Combusken, whereas Combusken can break down Poliwrath, Probopass, and Torterra for Liepard. Grumpig was then added to check opposing Combusken and special attackers who threaten the core such as Mr. Mime and Rotom-Frost. The given EV spread outspeed max Speed base 65's and Taunt Toxic helps in the stall/balance matchup. Next up, Torterra is the necessary rocker for the team, also checking Lycanroc, Golem, and providing physical breaking power. The team was looking very weak to rain at this point and nothing seemed to fit as well as Poliwrath. With Poliwrath, the team is able to outplay rain and also checks to Pinsir, who threatens 3/4 members of the team thus far. Finally, Choice Scarf Frostom was added as glue and is brings necessary speed to the team. The team's weaknesses include Bouffalant, as there is no Normal-resist, offensive Grass-types such as Sawsbuck or Leafeon, and can be pressured by hazards since only Combusken has Defog.
 
Sandslash B- > B (or B+)
IMG_1397.PNG

I think sandslash is quite the underrated mon in this meta, and should be ranked at least a little bit higher. Firstly, it has the ability to both set hazards and remove hazards on its own side using rapid spin, which nothing else in the tier can do. This makes it a great team mate for pokemon like crustle, which greatly appreciates the removeal of hazards. Secondly, it has great defensive bulk, allowing it to check pokemon like rapidash and monferno, and hitting back hard with earthquake. Its also a hard counter for lycanrok, which has a variety of sets, none of which fair too well against sandslash's defense, offense, and utility. However, it is held back back by its special defense and weakness to grass. Nevertheless, I still think it deserves more attention than it gets.
 
Last edited:
First off, I want to thank everyone who joined today and especially Durza, Diag, and all the voices in the chat who helped run the workshop today. It was very fun and a good learning experience for everyone involved.
Did anyone happen to record the workshop or do a writeup? I am very interested in the information that was provided, but was unfortunately unable to attend personally due to RL commitments.

Sandslash B- > B (or B+)
View attachment 116114
I think sandslash is quite the underrated mon in this meta, and should be ranked at least a little bit higher. Firstly, it has the ability to both set hazards and remove hazards on its own side using rapid spin, which nothing else in the tier can do.
Armaldo can set up rocks and spin then away, but other than that, I agree - Sandslash is kind of cool in this tier.
 
Some noms I've had for a while now:

1526767680764.png
Kadabra A+ -> A
Kadabra is a good mon, but atm it's not great. It's focus sash set is likely the best revenge killer in the game, and having very few switchins with the LO set is great, but both sets struggle with any form of longevity in the meta. Kadabra can not switch in much, and almost always has to be brought in via voltturn or when a team mate faints, and even then it really only has one switch and will be pursuit trapped, 2hko'd, etc. It's not as good as before and it should fall to reflect this.

1526767697568.png
Golem A+ -> A
Golem struggles to stand out as a rocks setter and it's offensive sets lack speed, for the most part, to be as effective as they could be. I believe due to Golem struggleing at the moment it should fall down to A with Mawile, which I believe it should be compared with Mawile due to them both being decent rocks setters while Golem has more offensive options and Mawile is more consistent throughout a match and has intimidate support.

1526767710230.png
Torterra A+ -> S
Torterra requires very minimal support to be able to break through teams. It thrives in a meta where mons can not hit it hard enough to 2 or 3HKO it often, and it's able to boost up quite often. It's a great win-con, but it's defensive sets are also great due to being one of the few checks to Lycanroc available in the tier. Torterra is a very versatile pokemon and his ability to run such different sets is an asset to tons of teams, being able to check one of the best mons in the tier as well as being able to run offensive sets that have very few checks, I believe it should rise.

1526767721621.png
Roselia B -> B+ (Possibly A-)
The amount of support Roselia brings to your team is amazing. It's great vs. Stall and balance, it has sleep power to support, and it's access to spikes/tspikes is amazing. Roselia is the BEST spiker in the tier, without a doubt in my mind. Spikes are an amazing asset to offensive teams and Roselia's ability to set them reliable throughout the match, as well as access to recovery and a good dual stab makes it stand out. I don't understand why it isn't at least B+, as it could easily become A-.
 
Here is a VR update! We're finally updating the lower ranks after the most recent shift, which is massively delayed because of everything, from very lengthy discussions to piratepad crashing completely for a week, working against us. As such it's also a pretty big shift and there's no reasoning (especially since the A ranks saw very minimal change). If you have any questions, feel free to ask me or any of our council members. Anyway, here it is.
Silvally-Grass B -> A-
Bronzor B -> B+
Electivire
B -> B+
Machoke B -> B+
Silvally-Dragon
B -> B+
Zebstrika
B -> B+
Sawsbuck B- -> B
Silvally-Fighting
B- -> B
Gabite
C+ -> B-
Rampardos C+ -> B-
Mareanie
C -> B-
Dusclops C- -> B-
Ditto C- -> C+
Meowstic-F
C- -> C+
Raticate C- -> C+
Weepinbell
Usually Useless -> C-

Oricorio-E B+ -> B-
Masquerain
B -> B-
Cradily
B -> B-
Dusknoir B -> B-
Marowak B -> B-
Murkrow
B -> B-
Noctowl
B -> B-
Roselia B -> B-
Vullaby B -> B-
Wishiwashi B -> B-
Relicanth
B -> C+
Camerupt
B- -> C+
Drifblim B- -> C+
Electrode B- -> C+
Leavanny B- -> C+
Munchlax B- -> C+
Ninjask B- -> C+
Arbok C+ -> C
Cacturne C+ -> C
Illumise
C+ -> C
Silvally-Dark C+ -> C
Stunfisk C+ -> C
Prinplup C+ -> C-
Solrock
C+ -> C-
Fearow
C -> C-
Glaceon C -> C-
Lycanroc-N
C -> C-
Glalie C- -> Usually Useless
Lumineon C- -> Usually Useless
 
So I've question. Why did Roselia drop to B- ? Its reasonment to drop to B was already strange (see my previous post). Lucia Proto, Union Caboche and me asked for a rise to B+ or even A-. I wont repeat our arguments because I'm on phone. I didn't see any post against a Roselia rise or for a drop, and it was clear for me that everybody agreed with a Roselia's rise.
 
So I've question. Why did Roselia drop to B- ? Its reasonment to drop to B was already strange (see my previous post). Lucia Proto, Union Caboche and me asked for a rise to B+ or even A-. I wont repeat our arguments because I'm on phone. I didn't see any post against a Roselia rise or for a drop, and it was clear for me that everybody agreed with a Roselia's rise.
With Spikes on the decline, Roselia has only been getting worse recently. In addition to that, both Smeargle and Crustle are better Spike setters, while Mareanie is a better TSpikes setter. Its typing means that it cannot fit on the same team as several of the best Pokemon in our meta, like Torterra, Tangela, Gourgeist-L, and Silvally-Grass (every single one of which has gotten better recently), due to stacking weaknesses to Fire and Ice, which is awful considering how common Rotom-Frost, Monferno, and Combusken are. Its added Poison typing is also largely bad for it, giving it a neutrality to Ground-types, meaning it can't beat Torterra as a Grass-type, while the resistances are worthless in a meta lacking Fairies other than Mr Mime (and Togetic but there's better mons there) while our common Fighting-types are also Fire-types. All in all, it really doesn't have anything going for it at the current time and should not be in the same rank as mons like Silvally-Fighting, Togetic, and Carbink, and definitely not rise to the rank of Zebstrika, Pawniard, Metang, and Purugly.
 

ADV ZU.png
Welcome to ADV ZU! The purpose of this is to have a place to discuss changes to the ADV ZU Viability Rankings listed below, any meta trends you've experienced, Pokemon or cores you've been using, and/or any teams you might wish to share and get feedback on. We've made this because we want to bring more exposure to what we believe is an incredibly fun metagame. ADV ZU is in no way meant to overshadow the current metagame.

ADV ZU Viability Rankings
Viability Rankings are a method to sort and organize based on how viable, effective and consistent a Pokemon is in the tier. S Rank is given to Pokemon who dictate the metagame, are very easy to fit on teams and work on many playstyles to make a team better; D Rank is for Pokemon who barely have a niche in the metagame and should not be used before considering other options first. Each Pokemon will eventually have its own mini analysis/sets page, akin to the Smogon Dex; simply click the name of the Pokemon to view it.

S Rank
Delibird
Gloom

A Rank
Cubone
Delcatty
Dustox
Elekid
Masquerain
Meditite
Nosepass
Rhyhorn
Staryu
Taillow

B Rank
Bagon
Bayleef
Butterfree
Chinchou
Clefairy
Farfetch'd
Growlithe
Lileep
Mankey
Marill
Natu
Seaking
Wailmer

C Rank
Croconaw
Flaaffy
Grimer
Illumise
Koffing
Magnemite
Onix
Pineco
Poliwag
Snorunt
Sunflora
Zigzagoon

D Rank
Aron
Cacnea
Horsea
Larvitar
Ledian
Meowth
Nuzleaf
Parasect
Skiploom
Spinda
Voltorb

Sample Teams, Role Compendium, and Speed Tiers Coming Soon!
All Pokemon Tier List
ADV Mechanics
Tour Banlist
 
Last edited:
The first thing I woud like to say is I respect a lot the Council for the work they do everyday for the community. Six months ago, nobody or almost knew the ZU and this is thanks to their daily work the tier became more attractive for lots of people. We have actually a relative large playerbase and we are all glad ZU is actually the OMotM. That's the reason why I have a lot of respect for the Council.

And that's why too I would like to make a suggestion. Every time a mon rises or drops without being discussed on the thread or every time a nomination isn't taken into account, there is an explanation on the post of the vr update. Every official tier does that, it's sometimes done here too but generally only for some mons. I'm agree than it can take a long time to write but I think it is however necessary to avoid situations such as the issue with roselia right now.

Indeed, the playerbase is composed of many players who take their time too to support the tier. They take their time especially to write detailed posts to advance the community. Without players, there is no ZU. So when after writing a long post, the opposite of what they said is decided without explanation and a member has to ask to know, we just feel that the Council absolutely doesn't care about what we write on the thread. I know this is not the case, I know the majority of you is attentive about the feelings of the players, is always happy to help when it is necessary. However, that's what it looks regardless the situation. I think there is actually a lack of communication between the playerbase and the Council about the VR.

The drop of roselia is really surprising since the only feelings we had about our posts were positive, including Roselia. We don't much understand this turnabout. I add Roselia isn't the only problem, the violent drop of oricorio pom-pom in B- to be next to this fire form which requires far much support to work is also weird but I would like to focus on Roselia.

With Spikes on the decline, Roselia has only been getting worse recently. In addition to that, both Smeargle and Crustle are better Spike setters, while Mareanie is a better TSpikes setter. Its typing means that it cannot fit on the same team as several of the best Pokemon in our meta, like Torterra, Tangela, Gourgeist-L, and Silvally-Grass (every single one of which has gotten better recently), due to stacking weaknesses to Fire and Ice, which is awful considering how common Rotom-Frost, Monferno, and Combusken are. Its added Poison typing is also largely bad for it, giving it a neutrality to Ground-types, meaning it can't beat Torterra as a Grass-type, while the resistances are worthless in a meta lacking Fairies other than Mr Mime (and Togetic but there's better mons there) while our common Fighting-types are also Fire-types. All in all, it really doesn't have anything going for it at the current time and should not be in the same rank as mons like Silvally-Fighting, Togetic, and Carbink, and definitely not rise to the rank of Zebstrika, Pawniard, Metang, and Purugly.
I have a lot of problems with this reasonning. The most embarrassing thing is the half of this message should not be a reason to rise or drop a mon. The half of the message is based on the type of roselia. Everybody who wrote for a rise know that roselia is weak to fire and ice, know than it isn't resisted ground, know the poison type doesn't hit a lot of fairies. That was already like that before, that's not something new. Rotom-Frost was already S rank six months ago, Monferno and Combusken were already in ZU in A rank six months ago and almost as common as now. Roselia was A- during this time. Say Roselia should drop because it is weak to Combusken, Monferno, Frosttom isn't an argument.

Say two types grass cannot fit in a in single team due to frosttom/combusken/monferno isn't true either. What is important is to handle the different threats, if you're able to do that with two grass types, that's absolutely not an issue to get twice the same type. You could argue it's harder with two grass types but even with that the argument doesn't fit. The splashability is an advantage but don't be splashable isn't necessary a flaw. The issue when you aren't splashable is often the team needs to support you to let you shine. Eevee is one of the best example of that. However, it exists as well mons which aren't splashable but which give the support to the team. Pyukumuku is one of these mon, it's not especially splashable and it fits only in few teams. However when it is played, pyuku doesn't need a team based on its use to work, it's pyuku which supports the team. In this situation, the lack of splashability isn't a flaw because the utilization of pyuku needs no mandatory support. Roselia is in this category. The splashability is an advantage but not a flaw, don't forget usage doesn't mean viability. When a mon supports the team without needing too much support, there is no reason to complain about its splashability.

To finish about that, do you believe it is a coincidence if Torterra, Gourgeist, Silvally-Grass or Tangela which are all grass types become better now ? It's not a coincidence, Lurantis works very well too, Leafeon as well,... Grass types are nowadays far better than they were in the past.. And Roselia is a grass type. If you wanted to be logic with your own argument, you would have rised all grass types considering they became more viable or drop none considering even if they became more effective they suffered from their own competition... But certainly not rise Silvally_Grass and in the same time rop roselia. You couldn't even argue roselia is outclassed by silvally-grass because they have absolutely not the same role. And even if it was the case, Silvally is far more easily replaceable than roselia if you want to play them in a single team.

Now lets talk about the other points. "With spikes on the decline...", if you are talking about offenses centred around spikes, I'm totally agree with you. Crustle + Missy + a defiant user has never been very strong and still less recently, stuff like Silvally-Fighting are for example pretty annoying for this kind of team. But if this was your point, you should have concluded the opposite answer which was to drop crustle instead of roselia. Crustle cannot come more than twice on the board which is the reason why it is easy to get rid of it, easy to get rid of spikes and also the reason why crustle is limited to spikes offense. That's also the reason why crustle is less good than roselia in spiker, roselia has the ability to stack hazards whenever and many times in a battle.

I close the eyes on the spikes smeargle which shouldn't exist in a meta where crustle exists (or even... whrilipede ?), Smeargle isn't very good either anyway. You're talking about the poison type lower. This shouldn't be an argument for a drop considering it's the same thing since the beginning so nothing has changed but lets focus a moment on this, first about the fairy type. You're talking about the poison type but you forgot some things which are crucial in your analysis. Roselia has the ability to be played defensive or offensive. I love Mareanie for a lot of reasons but it's really passive. Mr.Mime can switch into Mareanie (except the uncommon sludge bomb versions and Mr.Mime handles it anyway), that doesn't happen with a Roselia.

The second reason why you lack something in your analysis is about togetic. That's true that it isn't a mon very played but it's pretty common in one playstyle, in stall where it is the defoger. Guess what it is very strong against stall ? Stack Hazards. If your user of spikes was a mon without the poison type such as cacturne for example, you couldn't threat stall in the same way. The grass type is also pretty nice against some stall which have generally sandslash in spinner. I'm not a big fan of this playstyle but roselia is useful there too. It's also a mon very difficult to get rid for stalls thanks to recovery and natural cure. Crustle is on the other hand pretty easy to weaken.

Talking about fighting types, you forget the main which is Poliwrath. Roselia in the same time the best friend of tankpoli (thanks to circle throw) and its best counter. Silvally-Fighting except the uncommon SD/Zen Headbutt set cannot either deal with Roselia thanks to the poison type. I add other mons than fighting types use fighting moves and are unfortunately common such as Simipour SubNP for example or Lurantis Superpower...

I don't mention the lack of ground resist because you could also say it has a bug neutrality which allows to take a hit of pinsir (and anyway, except tangela/gourgeist, none grass type take well Z-Wood hammer at +2). You finish your post with a comparaison with the other ranks. I won't comment that because it's very subjective (Carbink and Purugly should be lower in my opinion, Roselia is as viable as stuff like pawniard for me, etc).

I didn't want to hurt someone with this post, if I did I apologize. I wrote this here to try to have a discussion on this. My only problem is Roselia, that doesn't mean I'm agree with all other changes but they are minor, that's just a personal view. The issue with Roselia is different, few people explain why Roselia should rise, it dropped first without explanation, then with a reasonning having major flaws in the analysis that I hope to have shown in this thread.
 
Last edited:
I completely agree that we need to have some reasoning in VR changes, particularly with the more controversial ones, but I somewhat disagree on your specific points here. I'd like to add on to the Roselia points and why its due for a drop.
The drop of roselia is really surprising since the only feelings we had about our posts were positive, including Roselia. We don't much understand this turnabout. I add Roselia isn't the only problem, the violent drop of oricorio pom-pom in B- to be next to this fire form which requires far much support to work is also weird but I would like to focus on Roselia.
I'd like to start of by addressing this point of Oricorio Pom-Pom being better than Baile, the Fire-type form.

The Fire-type form of Oricorio is actually superior to Pom-Pom despite its weakness to Rocks. Baile's coverage is actually incredible, and it is extremely unique in a few regards. It is a Flying-type able to break through Steel-types as well as being able to beat Rotom-Frost. Rotom-Frost is objectively the best mon in the tier right now, and Oricorio Pom-Pom gives it a free switch all day long. Baile outspeeds non Scarf Varients, and Oricorio's incredible STAB combination has very few resists in the tier. Quantum Tesseract and I used Oricorio Baile pretty extensively and proved that it puts in an amazing amount of work.

I have a lot of problems with this reasonning. The most embarrassing thing is the half of this message should not be a reason to rise or drop a mon. The half of the message is based on the type of roselia. Everybody who wrote for a rise know that roselia is weak to fire and ice, know than it isn't resisted ground, know the poison type doesn't hit a lot of fairies. That was already like that before, that's not something new. Rotom-Frost was already S rank six months ago, Monferno and Combusken were already in ZU in A rank six months ago and almost as common as now. Roselia was A- during this time. Say Roselia should drop because it is weak to Combusken, Monferno, Frosttom isn't an argument.
You can't compare metagames from 6-months ago to the current metagame. They are completely different, and that is not a valid argument. A metagame is a complex thing - relationships are not defined by 1v1 hypothetical scenarios of Pokemon being "available"- rather, how the metagame has shifted around it. Roselia has not responded well to the recent metagame developments, which I will talk about throughout this post.
Say two types grass cannot fit in a in single team due to frosttom/combusken/monferno isn't true either. What is important is to handle the different threats, if you're able to do that with two grass types, that's absolutely not an issue to get twice the same type. You could argue it's harder with two grass types but even with that the argument doesn't fit. The splashability is an advantage but don't be splashable isn't necessary a flaw. The issue when you aren't splashable is often the team needs to support you to let you shine. Eevee is one of the best example of that. However, it exists as well mons which aren't splashable but which give the support to the team. Pyukumuku is one of these mon, it's not especially splashable and it fits only in few teams. However when it is played, pyuku doesn't need a team based on its use to work, it's pyuku which supports the team. In this situation, the lack of splashability isn't a flaw because the utilization of pyuku needs no mandatory support. Roselia is in this category. The splashability is an advantage but not a flaw, don't forget usage doesn't mean viability. When a mon supports the team without needing too much support, there is no reason to complain about its splashability.
I don't think anybody is actually arguing that you can't have more than one typing on a team. It's silly to think anybody serious plays by those "rules", every team is different and I don't think thats why Roselia dropped. You keep talking about "splashability", but thats an extremely broad term that not only is extremely subjective but also I don't think you really understand the connotations of the word itself. "Splashability" inherently implies that a Pokemon needs less team support than another Pokemon would, which is actually a big factor in viability (you said yourself that Oricorio Baile needed more "support" than pom-pom. Pyukumuku is also by far the most splashable pokemon on Stall teams, but that's not the heart of the problem. The main issue here is that, well, Roselia is just outclassed. People refer to other Pokemon of the same type together not because of their type, but because their typing often allows them to perform very similar roles.
To finish about that, do you believe it is a coincidence if Torterra, Gourgeist, Silvally-Grass or Tangela which are all grass types become better now ? It's not a coincidence, Lurantis works very well too, Leafeon as well,... Grass types are nowadays far better than they were in the past.. And Roselia is a grass type. If you wanted to be logic with your own argument, you would have rised all grass types considering they became more viable or drop none considering even if they became more effective they suffered from their own competition... But certainly not rise Silvally_Grass and in the same time rop roselia. You couldn't even argue roselia is outclassed by silvally-grass because they have absolutely not the same role. And even if it was the case, Silvally is far more easily replaceable than roselia if you want to play them in a single team.
Grass-types in general are on a rise for certain reasons. It's not solely for their typing, its for their performance in the given role. Typings typically play a big part in a Pokemon's role, and thats why Grass-types are being compared as they have several "jobs" they are expected to take on, if needed. Torterra is far more versatile than Roselia, which is extremely one dimensional. Torterra is also a phenomenal Lycanroc check, and Lycanroc is one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier as of late. Silvally-Grass has a huge support movepool, great coverage, access to pivoting, the surprise effect of Silvally's typing unknown at team preview, as well as great all around stats, and Tangela has more role compression than any Pokemon in the tier along with an amazing ability in Regenerator. Tangelas have also started shifting to my offensive pivot set of 252+SpA which is far better than whatever bulky spreads they were running before, which is another recent metagame development. Also, you literally just compared Silvally-Grass and Roselia before saying you cannot logically compare them... which isn't even true.. You can compare things that need to be performing the "standard" capabilities of a grass-type, and unless this is some special scenario that I'm not aware of, they should both be doing specific things.

Also, Lurantis is just bad now, its completely outclassed by Servine just because of the speed. There's a reason why it dropped to ZU after being NU, its just not that good anymore and servine's speed is far more useful.

Now, another big reason Roselia dropped in regard to typing is that its honestly just a liability. It's a Grass-type that doesn't resist Ground, a Fighting-resist that loses to the most common Fighting-types in the tier, Monferno and Combusken, and cannot safely switch into Poliwrath as it is easily 2HKO'd by a Life Orb Ice Beam, a +6 Ice Punch, and drops flat to an unboosted LO Ice Punch with some prior chip damage. A Poison-type is expected to beat Fairy-types, and Roselia loses 1v1 to every single Fairy-type in the tier. It's supposed to beat Water-types being a grass-type but even it struggles with things like Ice Beam Poliwrath or Flamethrower Watervally. While all Grass-types struggle from that issue to some extent, Roselia has a plethora of problems its typing causes, and it brings nothing else to the metagame like all the other Grass-types do. It's typing is a liability, plain and simple, and its held back by its massive 4MSS as it always wants to run more moves than it can fit in a moveset.

Now lets talk about the other points. "With spikes on the decline...", if you are talking about offenses centred around spikes, I'm totally agree with you. Crustle + Missy + a defiant user has never been very strong and still less recently, stuff like Silvally-Fighting are for example pretty annoying for this kind of team. But if this was your point, you should have concluded the opposite answer which was to drop crustle instead of roselia. Crustle cannot come more than twice on the board which is the reason why it is easy to get rid of it, easy to get rid of spikes and also the reason why crustle is limited to spikes offense. That's also the reason why crustle is less good than roselia in spiker, roselia has the ability to stack hazards whenever and many times in a battle.
This is the primary reason why Roselia deserved the drop it recieved. Spikes are bad in ZU right now. Roselia's main niche was being the best spike setter in the tier for an already declining playstyle, and now with Crustle in the tier, its outclassed for a few reasons. First off, Reliability. Roselia has trouble clicking spikes versus things as it's so heavily offensively pressured throughout the match. Crustle can guarantee you at least a few layers of hazards and then it depends on your team to offensively pressure defog and spin, which is something Roselia fails to achieve on the squads it is put on.

The second reason it's outclassed is one simple thing: Stealth Rock. Putting Rocks on Crustle can free up another moveslot somewhere else or allow you to run a different Pokemon or set that would aid your team more. Crustle has the offensive threat of Shell Smash as well, making Pokemon want to pressure it harder as oppose to Roselia which can often become setup bait.
I close the eyes on the spikes smeargle which shouldn't exist in a meta where crustle exists (or even... whrilipede ?), Smeargle isn't very good either anyway. You're talking about the poison type lower. This shouldn't be an argument for a drop considering it's the same thing since the beginning so nothing has changed but lets focus a moment on this, first about the fairy type. You're talking about the poison type but you forgot some things which are crucial in your analysis. Roselia has the ability to be played defensive or offensive. I love Mareanie for a lot of reasons but it's really passive. Mr.Mime can switch into Mareanie (except the uncommon sludge bomb versions and Mr.Mime handles it anyway), that doesn't happen with a Roselia.
What does Smeargle have to do with anything.... or Mareanie. What Roselia's run Sludge Bomb? I think its pretty uncommon there as well as it wants to run Giga Drain / Synthesis / Spikes / Aromatherapy / Tspikes / Sleep Powder all before it wants Sludge Bomb. This just further emphasizes how Roselia's competition for moveslots hurts it even more, as it can't do everything it wants and needs to do to perform to any degree of success.
The second reason why you lack something in your analysis is about togetic. That's true that it isn't a mon very played but it's pretty common in one playstyle, in stall where it is the defoger. Guess what it is very strong against stall ? Stack Hazards. If your user of spikes was a mon without the poison type such as cacturne for example, you couldn't threat stall in the same way. The grass type is also pretty nice against some stall which have generally sandslash in spinner. I'm not a big fan of this playstyle but roselia is useful there too. It's also a mon very difficult to get rid for stalls thanks to recovery and natural cure. Crustle is on the other hand pretty easy to weaken.
Hazard Stack isn't a good answer to good stall by any means, I don't know where you're getting this misconception. All good stall teams have reliable ways to remove hazards and enough to punish free turns to set a few layers. Crustle is better at stacking hazards anyway, and Roselia has a worse matchup defensively versus sandslash than Crustle, though it does have a better offensive matchup. Overall, Roselia isn't a terrible Pokemon, but its just not up to the standards of its former position.
Talking about fighting types, you forget the main which is Poliwrath. Roselia in the same time the best friend of tankpoli (thanks to circle throw) and its best counter. Silvally-Fighting except the uncommon SD/Zen Headbutt set cannot either deal with Roselia thanks to the poison type. I add other mons than fighting types use fighting moves and are unfortunately common such as Simipour SubNP for example or Lurantis Superpower...
Poliwrath is by no means the most common or "main" Fighting-type. Both Combusken and Monferno, especially the latter, see more use as they are on more offensive playstyles that are objectively more common in ZU and Monferno can function in many roles as well. Sure... it counters "tankpoli", but I'd go to say offensive variants are still more common than that, and it can't even safely switch in of the fear of Ice Beam. Simipour often runs 3Atks Nasty Plot with Ice Beam, so thats not a safe switch either. Lurantis is actually really bad in the current metagame, and literally every other Grass-type with the exception of Torterra beat that.
I don't mention the lack of ground resist because you could also say it has a bug neutrality which allows to take a hit of pinsir (and anyway, except tangela/gourgeist, none grass type take well Z-Wood hammer at +2). You finish your post with a comparaison with the other ranks. I won't comment that because it's very subjective (Carbink and Purugly should be lower in my opinion, Roselia is as viable as stuff like pawniard for me, etc).
Who cares about a Bug neutrality? Pinsir still 2HKOs even the bulkiest of Roselias, lol. Thats actually terrible reasoning. As for the other stuff, you yourself said it was subjective and it really doesn't have much to do with Roselia at all.
I didn't want to hurt someone with this post, if I did I apologize. I wrote this here to try to have a discussion on this. My only problem is Roselia, that doesn't mean I'm agree with all other changes but they are minor, that's just a personal view. The issue with Roselia is different, few people explain why Roselia should rise, it dropped first without explanation, then with a reasonning having major flaws in the analysis that I hope to have shown in this thread.
Honestly, I don't really like the way you went about your post, it was unnecessarily long and a bit condescending towards the council and focused on things that weren't really true. At least, I hope I explained a bit more into why Roselia was deserving of a drop.
 
Last edited:
Xayah and Durza already went over Roselia so I'll keep my words about it to a minimum when I talk about why I voted to drop it to B-. Simply put, the opportunity cost to running Roselia over most other Grass-types in this metagame is fairly significant. As others have said, being a Grass-type in this meta with somewhat frail physical bulk and an inability to effectively switch into Torterra, Lycanroc, and even Golem leaves Roselia at a large disadvantage compared to Torterra, Tangela, and Silvally-Grass. If the metagame centered around special attackers that Roselia could take on, then it would be in a much better position. However, in the current meta, most of the top special attackers (Frostom, Mr. Mime, Combusken, etc) dunk on Roselia. Hence, when I voted on Roselia in the VR slate I already knew that defensively Roselia was not staying in the B ranks. Conversely, I believe offensive Spikes Roselia is not a B or B+ set because it faces much of the same issues as the defensive set, being easy to pick off by the top meta threats. It is able to prevent Silvally formes from switching in freely and can act as a decent special attacker, yet I didn't see it as effective enough to stay in B rank because it has key flaws in low Speed, bulk, and has somewhat low switch-in opportunities (i.e can't come in on most of S through A). Personally, I even believe that Quilladin is the superior Grass-type Spiker which hasn't been mentioned (for reasons I can explain, just don't want to steer offtopic). For all these reasons, I voted on Roselia going B to B-.


These past few posts raise two important topics for council and the ZU community: responding to VR nominations and explaining VR changes/noms. As Union Caboche expressed, the council should be transparent on why Pokemon changed a rank and let the playerbase know our reasonings. Council already puts in discussion from within, as it should, but with large VR shake ups such as this, it is very time and effort consuming to explain each change. We've shown it in the May 1st VR changes with S through B+ ranks that we can explain VR changes, so it's a matter of putting in the effort on more extensive VR changes such as this one. Moreover, responding to VR nominations is something that can easily be done. It's regrettable that we haven't responded to enough publicly, so as council we will respond to more VR posts in this thread.

If anyone has any questions or comments, I take it upon myself and the rest of council to answer. I really appreciate the playerbase we have and I hope we can keep helping make ZU a better and bigger tier.
 


Welcome to ORAS ZU and Viability Rankings for our tier. The following Pokemon are ranked based on their positive and/or negative traits, including their splashability, effect on the metagame, and reliability, as well as numerous other factors. All Pokemon from ranks S to A- are ranked in order of viability, while the rest are alphabetical. If you'd like to see a Pokemon change rank, please leave a constructive post in the thread detailing the rank you'd like to see the Pokemon moved to, and provide evidence to support your reasoning. Remember that the Viability Rankings will fluctuate to accurately reflect the state of the ORAS metagame. Please do not post to move a Pokemon up or down within its own current rank. Eventually, each Pokemon will have their own mini analysis akin to the SmogDex. Just click on the name of the Pokemon to find its recommend set.
S Rank - Includes Pokemon that fair excellently in ORAS ZU. If any Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, they are generally eclipsed by the Pokemon's merits.

S
Electabuzz
Simipour
Simisage

A Rank - Includes Pokemon that perform amazingly in ORAS ZU, but have a few flaws that hold them back from being S rank material.

A+
Gourgeist-Large
Politoed
Krokorok
Klang
Wartortle
Huntail
Murkrow
Jumpluff

A
Duosion
Lairon
Servine
Purugly
Zweilous
Raticate
Golduck
Butterfree
Quilladin
Sawsbuck

A-
Vanilluxe
Lopunny
Meowstic-M
Pignite
Regigigas
Frogadier
Glalie
Swoobat
Gogoat
Gigalith
Heatmor
Magmar

B Rank - Includes Pokemon that perform exceptionally well in ORAS ZU, and that, while they may have noticeable flaws that hold them back, they are mostly mitigated by their merits.

B+
Beartic
Dusclops
Glaceon
Gourgeist-Small
Hippopotas
Luxray
Mienfoo
Pikachu
Scraggy
Vibrava
Whirlipede
Wigglytuff

B
Bronzor
Fearow
Girafarig
Meganium
Mightyena
Munchlax
Shelgon
Slaking
Sliggoo
Swalot
Volbeat

B-
Carbink
Chinchou
Dragonair
Dustox
Furfrou
Gastly
Honedge
Lampent
Lunatone
Meowstic-F
Noctowl
Palpitoad
Seviper
Walrein
Whiscash

C Rank - Includes Pokemon that are generally mediocre in ORAS ZU. While they do have a few traits to warrant them on teams, they have multiple flaws that greatly hinder from being used over higher ranked Pokemon.

C+
Banette
Bellossom
Carvanha
Chimecho
Ditto
Dwebble
Emolga
Frillish
Hypno
Marshtomp
Octillery
Persian
Pidgeot
Seaking
Staryu
Tropius
Wormadam-Trash

C
Anorith
Croconaw
Kricketune
Magcargo
Maractus
Masquerain
Meditite
Solrock
Stantler
Staravia
Venipede
Weepinbell

C-
Bibarel
Dunsparce
Gothitelle
Gourgeist
Magnemite
Spritzee
Tentacool
Wailord

D Rank - Includes Pokemon that are sub-par in the ORAS ZU metagame. Pokemon that are in this rank have numerous flaws that prevent them from being more than simply niche choices for teams.

D
Beedrill
Cherrim
Lickitung
Natu
Onix
Phione
Shedinja
Snubbull
Unfezant
Wormadam-Sandy

E Rank - Includes Pokemon that are outright unviable in ORAS ZU. These Pokemon may have one notable niche, but have way too many flaws to warrant use on any serious team.

E
Ariados
Bastiodon
Beautifly
Carnivine
Castform
Corsola
Dedenne
Delcatty
Delibird
Dewgong
Farfetch'd
Furret
Illumise
Ledian
Luvdisc
Minun
Mothim
Pachirisu
Paras
Plusle
Spinda
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Unown
Vespiquen
Watchog
Wobbuffet
Wormadam

Usable Pokemon List
Tour Banlist
Speed Tiers
Sample Teams, Role Compendium, and Checks Compendium Coming Soon!
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 3, Guests: 0)

Top