You created an analysis thread that can't deal with people who disagree? that's rather weak, but sure. I still use Zoroark because I like it anyway.
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Zoroark (Analysis)
- Thread starter PK Gaming
- Start date
You created an analysis thread that can't deal with people who disagree? that's rather weak, but sure. I still use Zoroark because I like it anyway.
Fine i'll reply to your arguments.
This is wrong. Zoroark has a fantastic Special movepool that gives it wide coverage and versatility. Team review hurts Zoroark, but is also capable of helping Zoroark too. You can rearrange the initial team roster and keep your opponent guessing. A well played Zoroark can mean the difference between a loss or a win.
Did you completely forget about the existence of Focus Blast?!? Tyranitar can't switch into Zoroark at all, its too dangerous. Same for Zuruzukin, it takes heavy damage from Focus Blast (although SpD variants can survive)
NP sets don't have trouble with Tyranitar / Zuruzukin because they have Focus Blast. Seriously read the actual analysis. Zoroark is a lackluster Pursuit user and is outright outclassed by Weavile who boasts superior speed. (most of the Pokemon you're attempting to pursuit are faster than Zoroark
and have no problem staying in)
Pretty much everything you said was either wrong or way off base. You clearly don't know how to use Zoroark. If you want to argue, please PM me instead.
Might I suggest the following set?
Zoroark @Dark Jewel
Hasty(+Spe; -Def) - 20 Atk, 252 S.Atk, 236 Spe
Ability: Illusion
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Flamethrower
- Focus Blast
The reason is because Zoroark´s entire design revolves around deception, trickery, making the opponent believe in something which is not. Therefore, if you´re not using a NP set, a hit-and-run strategy suits Zoroark perfectly. The main difference between using Zoroark and Weavile is that Weavile is expected to do something like Pursuit or Swords Dance, for example. Zoroark will always be in disguise and should not be expected to do the same role, thus earning you free kills when it "shouldn´t".
Now for each choice:
- Dark Jewel might sound odd. But, being a hit-and-run threat with the surprise factor, once Zoroark does its first Sucker Punch or Pursuit, its cover will already be blown for the time being. So, its first Dark attack should hurt as much as possible to ensure the kill on whatever it attacks. Dark Jewel allows for that without taking away its freedom of choice.
- The EV spread is just a personal choice of mine, as some may argue that attacking order is irrelevant on a trapping Dark 'mon. Still, Zoroark´s speed tier is a nice one to have and outpacing Garchomp is important to me. Also, providing power for its special attacks is also necessary.
- Pursuit and Sucker Punch are the crux of the set, allowing it to revenge-kill Ghosts and Psychics with 100% efficiency if your prediction skills are good, which is what Zoroark should be doing most of the time(Shandera, Latios and Espeon come to mind).
- Flamethrower and Focus Blast compliment the set by allowing Zoroark to kill the likes of Tyranitar, Nattorei and Scizor with ease.
Also important to note is that Zoroark´s partners should focus on conceiving his own nature while attracting 'mons it´s likely to kill and scarings 'mons that give him trouble. Ghost-types and Fighting-types are always nice disguises for Zoroark, as both inhibit the appearance of Fighting and Bug-types(Zoroark´s weaknesses) while attracting Ghosts and Psychics for the slaughter. Additionally, Normal-types can force switches on Ghost-types, allowing a free Pursuit on their @$$e$. Gengar, Blaziken, Lucario(especially after Draco Meteors) and the likes usually provide the opportunities Zoroark needs so much. This Zoroark should only be used if your team has trouble against 'mons such as Latios, Shandera, Starmie and such.
Zoroark @Dark Jewel
Hasty(+Spe; -Def) - 20 Atk, 252 S.Atk, 236 Spe
Ability: Illusion
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Flamethrower
- Focus Blast
The reason is because Zoroark´s entire design revolves around deception, trickery, making the opponent believe in something which is not. Therefore, if you´re not using a NP set, a hit-and-run strategy suits Zoroark perfectly. The main difference between using Zoroark and Weavile is that Weavile is expected to do something like Pursuit or Swords Dance, for example. Zoroark will always be in disguise and should not be expected to do the same role, thus earning you free kills when it "shouldn´t".
Now for each choice:
- Dark Jewel might sound odd. But, being a hit-and-run threat with the surprise factor, once Zoroark does its first Sucker Punch or Pursuit, its cover will already be blown for the time being. So, its first Dark attack should hurt as much as possible to ensure the kill on whatever it attacks. Dark Jewel allows for that without taking away its freedom of choice.
- The EV spread is just a personal choice of mine, as some may argue that attacking order is irrelevant on a trapping Dark 'mon. Still, Zoroark´s speed tier is a nice one to have and outpacing Garchomp is important to me. Also, providing power for its special attacks is also necessary.
- Pursuit and Sucker Punch are the crux of the set, allowing it to revenge-kill Ghosts and Psychics with 100% efficiency if your prediction skills are good, which is what Zoroark should be doing most of the time(Shandera, Latios and Espeon come to mind).
- Flamethrower and Focus Blast compliment the set by allowing Zoroark to kill the likes of Tyranitar, Nattorei and Scizor with ease.
Also important to note is that Zoroark´s partners should focus on conceiving his own nature while attracting 'mons it´s likely to kill and scarings 'mons that give him trouble. Ghost-types and Fighting-types are always nice disguises for Zoroark, as both inhibit the appearance of Fighting and Bug-types(Zoroark´s weaknesses) while attracting Ghosts and Psychics for the slaughter. Additionally, Normal-types can force switches on Ghost-types, allowing a free Pursuit on their @$$e$. Gengar, Blaziken, Lucario(especially after Draco Meteors) and the likes usually provide the opportunities Zoroark needs so much. This Zoroark should only be used if your team has trouble against 'mons such as Latios, Shandera, Starmie and such.
This is a set I thought of:
Zoroark: Life Orb, Timid (+Speed -Att)
252 Evs in Sp. Att/Sp.
-Nasty Plot
-Night Burst
-Flamethrower
-Trickery
Nasty Plot works great while they think you're something else. For example, if your last Poke'mon (6th slot) was Gallade or Toxicroak, they might use a weak Ghost or an ineffective Psychic attack. Once you get out the Nasty Plot (or 2 if you so wish/need/can), Night Burst is your main attack. Flamethrower defeats bug types, and offers a different type. It can take out quite a few Fighting types, once buffed with Nasty Plot. Trickery, since it runs off the opponent's Attack stat, works well against [Pseudo]Legendaries, especially if Swords Danced/Dragon Danced.
What do you think?
Edit: Final stats, assuming perfect IV's, are 261 HP, 221 Att, 156 Def, 339 Sp. Att, 156 Sp. Def, 339 Sp., with room for +1 to one of those stats besides Sp. Att and Speed. NOT counting Life Orb, Nasty Plots, etc.
Zoroark: Life Orb, Timid (+Speed -Att)
252 Evs in Sp. Att/Sp.
-Nasty Plot
-Night Burst
-Flamethrower
-Trickery
Nasty Plot works great while they think you're something else. For example, if your last Poke'mon (6th slot) was Gallade or Toxicroak, they might use a weak Ghost or an ineffective Psychic attack. Once you get out the Nasty Plot (or 2 if you so wish/need/can), Night Burst is your main attack. Flamethrower defeats bug types, and offers a different type. It can take out quite a few Fighting types, once buffed with Nasty Plot. Trickery, since it runs off the opponent's Attack stat, works well against [Pseudo]Legendaries, especially if Swords Danced/Dragon Danced.
What do you think?
Edit: Final stats, assuming perfect IV's, are 261 HP, 221 Att, 156 Def, 339 Sp. Att, 156 Sp. Def, 339 Sp., with room for +1 to one of those stats besides Sp. Att and Speed. NOT counting Life Orb, Nasty Plots, etc.
I think the entire existence of Night Burst on a set screams to your opponent "Hey, this is actually Zoroark." The only other Pokemon who learns it is Smeargle: who'll be attracting Fighting attacks anyway. I think unless the Illusion is going to be useless(in which case you're not using a perfectly good niche that only this pokemon has), Dark Pulse is infinitely the better option. Night Burst will fail you 1/20 times, Dark Pulse will not.
Or if you're going for paraflinch. Then, Night Burst.
Or if you're going for paraflinch. Then, Night Burst.
Definitely mention Infernape in the teammates section. While under the illusion of an Infernape, Zoroark lures in 'mons like Jellicent quite frequently. Once they're in, you can Night Burst them for some serious damage, paving the way for an Infernape sweep later on in the match. It's also great seeing Reuniclus come in and try to Psychic Zoroark while disguised as Infernape. You take no damage thanks to Zoroark's Dark typing and can proceed to kill it with Night Burst, effectively removing / weakening another troublesome foe for Infernape. Infernape and Zoroark are both neutral to Stealth Rock and have a similar movepools, making them perfect teammates for each other.
You could probably mention an all-out attacker set in Optional Changes if one doesn't want to run a boosting move. I've been running this:
Zoroark @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive
-Night Burst
-Flamethrower
-Focus Blast
-Sucker Punch
This set in particular works excellently with Infernape because of Sucker Punch, which allows you to take care of Latios (another Infernape check), who is faster than you. The rest is pretty straightforward. Everything else here looks good to go. If this needs a third QC approval, then count this post as one.
You could probably mention an all-out attacker set in Optional Changes if one doesn't want to run a boosting move. I've been running this:
Zoroark @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive
-Night Burst
-Flamethrower
-Focus Blast
-Sucker Punch
This set in particular works excellently with Infernape because of Sucker Punch, which allows you to take care of Latios (another Infernape check), who is faster than you. The rest is pretty straightforward. Everything else here looks good to go. If this needs a third QC approval, then count this post as one.
Why are you guys suggesting against Night Burst or Ankle Sweep? The goal isn't to look like one your other Pokemon for the entire match - the goal is to surprise the opponent by killing off a counter or switch-in to one of the other Pokemon you have on your team. You only need one turn. One turn. And then its done its job, preferably having set up or killed off an opponents Pokemon in the process.
Ankle Sweep is not all that great and Night Burst gives you away. There is one set that I can think of that can utilize Night Burst without regret.
name: Special Focus Sash
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Night Burst
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Flamethrower
item: Focus Sash
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
With its frailty, you might want to use Nasty Plot as the foe gets you down to 1 HP with whatever. Thanks to Illusion, you lose your cloak and are able to use Night Burst with no regrets. One problem, priority moves are as common as ever now and that will bring about your downfall.
Do not use this set, maybe include Focus Sash in optional changes though.
about Bloos set, I have something very similar.
With 36 attack EVs you also ensure the OHKO on Latias (bulkier than Latios), not to mention Starmie, Gengar, Azelf. I use HP Ice over Focus Blast (accuracy puts me off) and just enough EVs to outspeed positive Garchomp. This also lets Zoroark OHKO the 4x weak dragons, Gliscor and Landorus, outspeeding all of them. I truly think that this is his most effective set, as an all out sweeper. Oh, and Dark Pulse over Night Burst. You don't miss any KOs, and the accuracy is better. Not to mention it's like a giant sign saying: I AM ZOROARK|
With 36 attack EVs you also ensure the OHKO on Latias (bulkier than Latios), not to mention Starmie, Gengar, Azelf. I use HP Ice over Focus Blast (accuracy puts me off) and just enough EVs to outspeed positive Garchomp. This also lets Zoroark OHKO the 4x weak dragons, Gliscor and Landorus, outspeeding all of them. I truly think that this is his most effective set, as an all out sweeper. Oh, and Dark Pulse over Night Burst. You don't miss any KOs, and the accuracy is better. Not to mention it's like a giant sign saying: I AM ZOROARK|
Can we just post a big bold statement at the top of the analysis stressing that the point of Zoroark is not to disguise yourself as another pokemon and act solely as a lure? The point of using Zoroark is to use a dark-type with 120 base SpA, decent attack, access to Nasty Plot, and good speed.
So STOP SAYING CRAP LIKE THIS. Who cares if they know its Zoroark? They'll still have to take a Specs Night Burst to the face, or struggle to find a switch-in should they lack anything faster.
Anyways, I'm seconding the all-out attacker. Zoroark's priority is nice, and it still does a nice chunk to most things due to its good power.
BECAUSE night burst has a chance to miss, and you don't gain any KOs by using it over Dark Pulse. That's the main reason.
Night Burst was not my point in the post you were replying to.
To respond to your post, though, the 40% chance to make your enemies perfect-accuracy moves into Stone Miss is quite appealing, and happens frequently if you've every played Shaymin-L. The miss chance is negligible, really, but as I said they are both viable.
To respond to your post, though, the 40% chance to make your enemies perfect-accuracy moves into Stone Miss is quite appealing, and happens frequently if you've every played Shaymin-L. The miss chance is negligible, really, but as I said they are both viable.
Sorry, my bad. I thought it had a 20% chance to flinch
Have you guys even used Zoroark before... serious question here. Even if you use Dark Pulse, any player worth his or her salt can figure out that Zoroark is disguised as another Pokemon immediately after using DP. (ESPECIALLY with team preview) People claim that Dark Pulse can be used by other Pokemon like Gengar & Heatran. Have you SEEN a Dark Pulse Gengar? What exactly is the point to running a Dark Pulse Gengar & Heatran?!?
Dark Pulse has several advantages over Night Burst, but keeping Zoroark's identity a secret is definitely not one of them.
Dark Pulse has several advantages over Night Burst, but keeping Zoroark's identity a secret is definitely not one of them.
So you're saying that we should use Night Burst unless we plan to disguise Zoroark as something that is expected to use Dark Pulse such as Porygon-Z (bad example)?
I think he is saying whether it will blow Zoroark's cover isn't why Dark Pulse is better than Night burst
Dark Pulse 100% accurate flinch chance
Night Burst 95% accurate chance to lower foes accuracy (slightly more power but not enough for a big difference)
I think the point to get across is the foe is going to figure out it is zoroark. The only goal should be to trick the foes switch for a free attack/setup turn.
I tried using Zoroark on a team earlier. It was right around the time when Mach Punch Conkeldurr usage SKYROCKETED from all the SS Excadrills. When I looked at my team, the Huge Fighting Weakness glared me in the face and I tried a new team that didn't include Zoroark.
Edit: I haven't used Zoroark on a team since, so I will admit that I haven't playtested him as much as I should have if I continue posting. However, I'm not convinced that matters too much.
I have seen Gengars carry DP. I can't say I know why, but I haven't seen many Gengars period. Admittedly, that sounds odd. I can't say I have ever seen someone use DP Heatran.
@IcyMan: I'm not sure what the problem is. We said DP > NB for two reasons. You only tried to debunk one of them (whether or not you succeeded is another matter entirely that I won't address). Doesn't that mean there's still a reason to use DP?
I think the decision comes down to personal preference considering both moves are going to reveal zoroark's identity. 40% accuracy drop with 95% accuracy vs. 20% flinch chance with 100% accuracy. As said before, the power difference is probably negligible, but I think the fact that the accuracy drop can force switches/can have pretty much the same effect as a flinch makes it worth the 5% loss in accuracy if not better. The chance to cause a miss on the foe's next attack with night burst is 10%. This percentage also rises with consecutive night bursts. Furthermore, the target's accuracy is still dropped even after zoroark has fainted allowing another member of your team to take advantage of the 25% miss chance (or more if you somehow managed consecutive and successful night bursts).
Edit: You also don't need to be faster than the opponent to cause the miss chance.
Edit: You also don't need to be faster than the opponent to cause the miss chance.
Just because the physical Illusion Sweeper uses Swords Dance, doesn't necessarily mean you need to run more physical moves.. I currently run a variant of the set and it turned out to be extremely effective:
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Focus Blast
item: Life Orb
nature: Hasty / Naive
EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
After a Swords Dance, Sucker Punch is strong enough to most likely OHKO everything that's neutral to it. Maxed SpA is needed as Zoroark's special movepool is indeed the better one in the end. Focus Blast has more raw power than Low Sweep, even after a SD, offering enough power to deal with most things you need a Fighting-type move for. Same Speed EVs as you have, so you know what they are for. You should definately give it a shot.
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Focus Blast
item: Life Orb
nature: Hasty / Naive
EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
After a Swords Dance, Sucker Punch is strong enough to most likely OHKO everything that's neutral to it. Maxed SpA is needed as Zoroark's special movepool is indeed the better one in the end. Focus Blast has more raw power than Low Sweep, even after a SD, offering enough power to deal with most things you need a Fighting-type move for. Same Speed EVs as you have, so you know what they are for. You should definately give it a shot.
I know this argument has been done to death, but I prefer to use Night Burst because the 95 accuracy isn't that much of a drop for slightly increased power. Also, I like disguising Zoroark as Ferrothorn. It's a bit harder to pull off, as stealth rock and toxic spikes will set you off instantly and they share a fighting weakness, but the difference is in playstyle instead of type coverage. Ferrothorn is a bulky, slow Pokemon while Zoroark is fast and powerful - You don't necessarily send out your fastest Pokemon to counter Ferrothorn, and you usually want to send out a grass to resist Leech Seed or a Steel to resist Toxic, both of which will suffer from a fast flamethrower.
I agree that is a good idea but i would disguise Zoroark as Toxicroak because it just might be better depending on what you're concerned about, both are good options to disguise Zoroark as.
I'd add gengar to the "teammates" section. I've had great success with it as they have great type synergy with each other, so Zoroark can take a psychic attack while avoiding fighting and bug. Even though their movepools are pretty different, it works well.
EDIT: Whoops! Sorry bout the necrobump
EDIT: Whoops! Sorry bout the necrobump