Tournament ZU Circuit 2025 Discussion Thread

[Tuthur]

Hi ZU tournament players,

Just like last year, it is yet again time to discuss 2025 ZU Circuit. This is also the right place to discuss if you have feedback on the ongoing 2024 ZU Circuit.

The schedule seemed to go really well last year, so I'm suggesting to keep it the same. That means; Olympiad and Open at the beginning of January. World Cup and Triathlon afterwards, which should be late March / early April. ZULT mid May, overlapping with the end of ZUWC and beginning of ZUPL. ZUPL, as usual, signups going up on June and week 1 on July. Seasonal during summer and ZUPL. Swiss in September, after Seasonal concludes. Classic about just after ZUPL concludes. However, if you have suggestion to change it, do not hesitate.

Now onto things, we want to consider for a change and would love to hear being discussed:

• ZUWC
  • Do we keep this tournament? It was fairly popular and attracted a lot of players; however it makes the ZU tournament schedule very stacked and there is barely any breathing room between all the different ZU team tournaments.
  • On gerrymandering, many expressed dissatisfaction with France + Africa, Poland + Oceania, and Europe + Canada. Do we still allow these 'fake' regions to exist? If not, do we allow players to be grandfathered into their respective teams and create a RotW team for newcomers?
  • Do we want to add a couple Old Gens? 6 slots is arguably not much, but some regions like Poland struggled to meet the right number of players. Which generations would we add?
• ZUOL
  • Do we keep the tournament Old Gen only? Many people have expressed the will to have a bit of SV in it. We could raise up the number of starting slots to 10.
  • Move to blind auctions? This wasn't a feature possible for previous auctions, but this had been a discussion topic when designing Olympiad first in a way to make it more unique from ZUPL.
• ZUPL
  • The ORAS slot has been a source of discussions for many years now. A lot of people dislike skipping generations, but ORAS is far from the same level of activity and playerbase size as the other pool. Tagging players who played a least one ORAS ZU game in the past 2 ZUPL to know how they feel about removing their tier. Shaneghoul, Toto, Joya, Jett, 5Dots, DEG, a fruitshop owner, tier, Beka, JonAmon 25, pokemonisfun, 5gen, Raichy, gorex, sleid, TWiTT, Leni, BaitWiz, fish anemometer, spell, azogue, One Last Kiss, and Lasen.
• ZU Swiss
  • Move the number of people in playoff to 12 akin to Triathlon and Classic?
  • Change it for another format?

You can discuss other topics as well, but the above should be the main focus of this discussion.

 

[Lasen]

I will only comment on ORAS ZU because that's the only part I am comfortable discussing (SM ZU is cool!)

I keep doing fucking shit in ZUPL either because I choose a mid team or I get paired into Ho3n, but I've never once sat down in front of my computer to prep and/or play ORAS ZU and dreaded it. The metagame is a ton of fun, there's absurdly funny stuff that happens in games, you can load a plethora of different styles to (some) success. I am ORAS' #1 hater as a generation overall but I'd consider it remiss of the ZU team to axe the tier. Playerbase concerns can always be mitigated as it's not the hardest tier to slot a pilot into, and God knows how many people thirsting for their 13th custom are signing up for these tours who actually can play.

 

[BaitWiz]

Hey there, lot of thoughts so I'll just break it into each of the topics.

Overall Schedule - No real complaints about the overall schedule, I think it's cool and doesn't need much changing, if any.

ZUWC - I think ZUWC is great, but I think some of the 'mixed' regions felt pretty arbitrary. I know it's not helpful, but I'm not really a fan of this system; at the same time, I don't really have a good solution, either. Not sure how to move forward discussion with this, sorry.

ZUOL - I think 10 slots would be cool with two SV slots added, but I worry that without a custom avatar prize interest might not be strong enough to support the increased slot count. Blind auctions could be cool, though - fun way to mix things up, though I'm not sure how competitive it'd be overall - don't have much of an opinion on the blind auction thing overall, just that it'd be neat.

ZUPL - I think that ORAS is a metagame that has a ton of room to grow and explore, but few people feel motivated to try it since it's an old metagame without a ton of activity. I think it's a cool metagame and I share the same worry a few players have shared in the ZU Discord that if ORAS is cut from ZUPL, it would never return again. Personally, I'd probably consider revisiting this topic after Olympiad and seeing what that looks like. I'm also curious about new slots for ZUPL; adding ADV ZU would be a ton of fun, and I think some sort of Bo3 slot could be interesting (SM/SS/SV or something could be cool!) but would require a lot of work from whoever ends up slotted into there. I'll stop format discussion there, since there will be a proper commencement thread - just wanted to throw a couple ideas out while on the topic of ZUPL.
Quick edit: I think 10 slots ZUPL is far more reasonable than 10 slots Olympiad since non ZU ppl are interested in customs and the like.

ZU Swiss - I think that Swiss should have more slots going into playoffs, though I'm not sure what the magic number is. It really sucks that only one 4-2 player made it in our current format, and while I know that some 4-2 players would still get cut I think opening up more slots for them would increase motivation for players that pick up an early loss in the tournament to keep playing.

 

[Corthius]

Move to blind auctions? This wasn't a feature possible for previous auctions, but this had been a discussion topic when designing Olympiad first in a way to make it more unique from ZUPL.

This would literally make me come back immediately and manage a team. I think its a very fun thing to add and fits the general vibe of Olympiad.
I have the same opinion on the slots as Bait, I generally like the idea of an old gens team tour.

 

[5gen]

• ZUPL
  • The ORAS slot has been a source of discussions for many years now. A lot of people dislike skipping generations, but ORAS is far from the same level of activity and playerbase size as the other pool.

To preface, I don't have much at stake here. I won't be bothered if ORAS ends up getting cut.

While I agree that ORAS still has a good amount of exploration left and that it's comparatively easier to get into than other ZU metas, it's difficult to argue the numbers from last ZUPL. I looked at the numbers briefly and ORAS did have a small amount of ZUPL signups compared to the other metas. For reference, ORAS had 22 signups and a handful of previous ORAS players signed up to play all tiers. DPP had 33 signups, BW 35, SM 47, and SS 55. The most recent ORAS Cup did have 64 signups, which came before ZUPL. Shame that there wasn't as much crossover as I expected.

I feel that it's important to note that unlike gens 1-5, ORAS was a current gen ZU at one point. This means that we used to have much more activity and players involved that eventually moved on. It also means that much of the meta was developed years ago. That might have an effect on people not wanting to explore it as much because on the surface, it might not look like ORAS ZU has much exploration left. My feeling is that metas like ADV/GSC/RBY are new toys compared to ORAS.

ORAS ZU has seen considerable exploration and development in recent years. Players like twitt, ho3n, charles, jett, fruits, toto, 5dots, etc have pushed new sets and styles and refined existing archetypes. Yet, new stuff continues to come out (i.e., Mienfoo, Zweilous hazard stack, more optimized teams/styles from this ZUPL). I still manage to find new stuff after playing for like 7+ years. The Regigigas and Purugly bans shifted the meta too. My point is that while ORAS may look solved for the most part, there's still lots to explore. In addition, council regularly updates resources and c&c work is relatively active, so ORAS ZU is pretty easy to get into.

In terms of player base, ORAS did have a smaller player base in ZUPL. For activity, I honestly don't think activity matters as much for ORAS (or even SM and SS) because ORAS is pretty developed and has up-to-date resources (+lots of teams out there). The foundation is there and it's a simple gen. We've seen quite a few people pick up the tier and be decent or successful over the years.

Honestly, I feel like ZU leadership and a portion of the player base want ORAS replaced in favor of some other meta. I'm biased and think ORAS deserves to stay, though like I said it's hard to argue the numbers. Who knows, maybe Olympiad and ORAS Cup or even some big tour can happen (like with BW and ADV) that will revitalize ORAS ZU.

--

FREE BO3 in ZUPL

 

[BP]

ZUOL

• Do we keep the tournament Old Gen only? Many people have expressed the will to have a bit of SV in it. We could raise up the number of starting slots to 10.
• Move to blind auctions? This wasn't a feature possible for previous auctions, but this had been a discussion topic when designing Olympiad first in a way to make it more unique from ZUPL.

This is the only tour I really "care" about per se, so I'll give my take.

I think ZU Olympiad's branding as an old-gen tour geared toward newer players hasn't been all that successful. If you're going to include Gen 9 or Gen 8, I think you should axe the branding of it being an old-gen tour. 10 Slots does also seem like a bad idea just to jump on as we may not have enough player signups. I could really only see 10 slots working if we cut the number of teams down. If ZU decides to go the Blind Draft route it might be better to just call the tour ZUBD instead of olympiad. This way there doesn't have to be a conversation in later years about the purpose of the tournament. I think that this also makes it more likely that we get more / newer manager duos to sign up which has been a problem the last two iterations of the tournament.

From a managerial standpoint, if ZU ends up deciding that they still want the tour to be geared towards newer players it's important to meet with the TLs of every gen and talk about player-base numbers, new faces, etc. This can help decide what generations are slotted and will most likely see the greatest number of signups. This also makes it easier to fill a team roster with one or two "rising stars" in different generations.

My preferred outcome is Generations 1-6 in a Blind Draft format.

 

[Sputnik]

I only participated in one tournament this circuit but seeing as it was Swiss I do just wanna echo what BaitWiz is saying above. I don't wanna sound salty that I went 4-2 and didn't make playoffs (huffs copium) but it did feel kinda weird that only one 4-2 player ended up making top cut. I'm not super familiar with the Swiss format but I think finding a way to expand on playoffs to get more 4-2 ppl in the final bracket would be beneficial. Whether thats just a flat scale up to 12 or 16 ppl in final bracket or everyone makes it and ppl with better records are given byes (again, not super familiar with the format so not sure if thats possible) may be beneficial. Seeding a final bracket in Swiss via records during the pools stage seems relatively straightforward so implementing byes shouldn't be that difficult. I understand ppl not wanting the final bracket to get too saturated so maybe not every 4-2 and above player gets in but only letting one in felt kinda weird.

 

[zause]

Replace swiss with majors a 2nd seasonal or last chance. I think olympiad should include current gen too as it makes it more accessible for newer players (10 slots 6 teams maybe ik that format sucks but i think we have the player signups for 60 slots just not the managers). make zupl 10 slots with bo3 and adv if real. make zupl earlier a week earlier too if real.

 

[skrimps]

Blind Draft does not seem fun for managers. You overpay for players that you actually want and lose out on sleepers whose prices are tough to judge. Filling out your team becomes a crapshoot. Managers forfeit a lot of control in Blind Draft, and I think it harms teams. Pivoting to "ZUBD" strikes me as a change for the sake of change, not for the sake of improvement. Auctions are standard for a reason.

I actually think that adding SV ZU slots to Olympiad will make team management less enticing too. It stretches the required knowledge too far. Managers would be expected to cover/address more metagames than ZUPL which will lead to the deterioration of building + play across all slots.

ORAS ZU is fine. I dislike the idea of removing a 'middle' old gen because it's low engagement. It's a collective surrender to the idea that ORAS ZU is no longer a 'successful' metagame. I'm not oblivious to the handcuffs that exist in the builder, but options are plentiful and the pool is still competitive. The removal of ORAS ZU will not fix disinterest -- it will compound it.

I hate the exploitation of gerrymandering --> grandfathering. The regional combinations are better than a stacked (and scattered) Rest of World team, but it's in the competitive interest of the tour to discourage arbitrary reaches like Poland + Oceania in future iterations.

 

[5Dots]

Echoing what others like Bait and lasen said, I heavily disagree ORAS ZU being cut. ORAS ZU is still seeing a lot of room for metagame exploration and the Regigigas and Purugly bans have seen increased diversity in sets/mons previously uncommon like Mienfoo, Trubbish, and Zweilous. It may have a smaller playerbase but it's nowhere near solved and nearly all playstyles ranging from hyper offense to stall to balanced offense to hazard stack are viable (and even commonplace) and healthy. Removing the tier from ZUPL will not only hurt the tier, but sets a bad example for other tiers that might have lower numbers (i.e. DPP) and similarly has a lot of depths to be explored. The tier is also relatively easy to pick up and play considering XY mechanics aren't overly restricting.

I wouldn't mind having 10 slots for a custom avatar. ZU has had growing numbers and a dedicated playerbase to old and current gens alike.

See skrimps's opinion on why I think blind draft isn't an optimal idea.

 

[plznostep]

I'll give thoughts, disclaimer that I'm not well-versed in how to do formatting but might as well give it a shot

ZUWC:
Definitely keep it, most tiers have a WC format now and they do relatively well if i recall correctly. In terms of adding old gens, I think this would be nice since it appeals to me. In terms of what gens, I'm not sure. RUWC had old gens but they were able to fit them all in 8 slots. Maybe SVx6 and then a SS and SM slot? Or maybe do BW + ADV since I feel like those slots don't overlap for SV, ADV especially, and also would probably fill themselves? Could be wrong but there's options if you want to do old gens here, but it's also good the way it is.

ZUOL:

I think ZU Olympiad's branding as an old-gen tour geared toward newer players hasn't been all that successful.

I agree with this take, old gen + new players don't really align as SV ZU is much easier to learn due to being much more accessible for newer players. In my opinion, cut the "appealing to new players" part of the tour as ZUWC partially does this by being a super current gen focused tournament. You can add SV ZU if you want, would have to upgrade to 10 slots which doesn't seem that bad. Never cut any old gens though otherwise stuff like GSC ZU and RBY ZU will be barely related to ZU at all anymore.

ZUPL:
I'm not smart with slots or tour management in general so if my opinion on this seems uninformed, it probably is. I think you can get rid of ORAS if you really want to but I'm not really a fan of doing this since then ORAS ZU will be even more stagnant then it already is. I would like ADV in though since it's a pretty active ZU gen with the Gold Rush tour and now being included in Grand Slam. ZUPL in my personal opinion should be representative of our community and thus prominent old gens should be in. The only way to accommodate for ORAS and ADV would be 10 slots, but lots of more experienced people than me claim that it makes the overall tour quality worse in terms of SV games. I don't really know to accommodate for that, maybe if GSC sees any growth than that might have a chance of getting in since ADV and GSC are slots which should fill themselves on account of being generally apart of entirely different communities and thus less overlap with other gens. If GSC doesn't see any growth though it might be hard to fill the slot anyway though because not enough people play it. BO3 is fine otherwise but I do worry about the logistics of the slot since if I'm not wrong you are just putting a pilot in that slot most times since I can only think of 5gen for who plays all three of these tiers, and then build three teams every week/reuse some from past weeks. But overall, seems very messy and we'll just have to see how it goes.

ZU Swiss:
No strong opinions, I think it's okay the way it is but if people want a different format then it's not really that big of a deal to change it.

 

[a fruitshop owner]

I think we saw last ZUPL the struggle with ORAS gaining new players, so I like the idea of an alternative with enthusiasm. I think that would provide a more competitive scene for ZUPL. I basically agree with alot of what 5gen said in his post. In short ORAS is cool and it would suck for it to have no representation, ideally if it could be part of a bo3 that would be my vote so I could still enjoy ORAS.

 

[diegoyuhhi]

ZUWC

• Do we keep this tournament? It was fairly popular and attracted a lot of players; however it makes the ZU tournament schedule very stacked and there is barely any breathing room between all the different ZU team tournaments.

we absolutely do; i get that not being able to give a ca prize might make the tour seem kinda like a waste of time but many players would still join for national pride and to have a way to represent their country. the tour was a success imo last year, and i think we could realistically run it back on the same terms.

On gerrymandering, many expressed dissatisfaction with France + Africa, Poland + Oceania, and Europe + Canada. Do we still allow these 'fake' regions to exist? If not, do we allow players to be grandfathered into their respective teams and create a RotW team for newcomers?

i don't really have an opinion on this, if needing teams like these to have the tournament happen is a necessity then yea absolutely, tho i do think that if each country could represent itself on its own it would feel more "special".

Do we want to add a couple Old Gens? 6 slots is arguably not much, but some regions like Poland struggled to meet the right number of players. Which generations would we add?

honestly adding a few of the most popular old gens could be really cool, smth like 2sv-ss-sm-bw-adv could work while still keeping the 6 players requirement, and you could even extend to 8 by adding 2 of sv3/oras/dpp, tho i understand that having old gens would mean that the tour would be harder to get into for newcomers which most likely have never played old gens.

ZUOL

• Do we keep the tournament Old Gen only? Many people have expressed the will to have a bit of SV in it. We could raise up the number of starting slots to 10.

6x10 seems like the best compromise to be. as many have already stated, oly cannot be a tour for newer players and a tour for old gens at the same time, since old gens are usually harder to get into. adding either 2sv slots or 1sv 1bo3 (sv-ss-sm) slots could help extend the tour's reach.

Move to blind auctions? This wasn't a feature possible for previous auctions, but this had been a discussion topic when designing Olympiad first in a way to make it more unique from ZUPL.

blind auctions are w/e for me, they could be fine as much as they could not. i don't really have a take on this.

ZUPL

• The ORAS slot has been a source of discussions for many years now. A lot of people dislike skipping generations, but ORAS is far from the same level of activity and playerbase size as the other pool. Tagging players who played a least one ORAS ZU game in the past 2 ZUPL to know how they feel about removing their tier.

oras still has a shit ton of room for exploration, it's just that the gen is, in my opinion, kind of a nothing burger. most ppl who do play oras in tour are either manager who selfbought just to play oras bc the pool is kinda eh or players who put oras in their signup bc "idk it's a fine gen" and then were actually slotted into it. all of this leads to there not being any real "oras mainers" (with a few exceptions ofc) and as such the ppl who actually end up playing don't really feel like having the knowledge to try and innovate and just recycle or load comfortable stuff. oras would 100% need ppl putting the effort in to try and come up with new stuff, but as i stated that's not what happens, and if it were to be removed from zupl the reasons to try and innovate would only decrease more, as the tier would only then be in oly and cup (which already is a ton of recycling and this phenomenon would only increase). so yea, i do think that despite everything oras still needs to be in zupl.

ZU Swiss

• Move the number of people in playoff to 12 akin to Triathlon and Classic?
• Change it for another format?

i don't really care if zu swiss stays or if it gets changed to another format, but if it does stay then yea i'd def increase the playoff number, this year it seemed way too tight to get in.

 

[estra]

havoc unbiased biased takes (spoiler: don't cut oras!!)

- Regarding ZUWC
This tournament was very cool for me, being my first management experience in a team tour and I really enjoyed the meta back then, which made me stick around in ZU until now. KEEP IT! The oldgens thing is something a bit uncertain... We did have 12 country / region rosters last year, which is not even that low? Mainly accounting that there is not a Custom Prize. For reference, last year's NUWC had 10, this year's RUWC that had a Custom Prize had 16 in. Question is: Would adding oldgens lower the numbers of countries that can get a full roster in? Answer is: Maybe! While a lot of players enjoy playing oldgens more than current gen, that could also make new players insecure to sign up to play a tier with A - No ladder, B - Different mechanics (Pursuit, Z-Moves, etc.) THEREFORE, I don't know what would be better for WC really, maybe if there really are some veterans interested in playing ZU oldgens for their country it'd be cool. I would love seeing oldgens in ZUWC personally, but my country isn't between those who struggles to get a full roster for this Tournament (and still won't with oldgens added), so I'm suspect to say I guess.

- Regarding ZUOL
I've never played this tournament before, so I don't have a lot to say here. Adding current gen seems fine to attract new players but if the idea is to have a oldgen tour, it feels kinda eh. Already said in Discord and some ppl on the posts above did too that the idea of a Oldgen focused AND beginner friendly tournament is... not of the greatest i've heard. Moving to Blind Draft would help on getting more signups I guess since people would say like "hey that's the new funny draft format, lets signup bro" but for sure a standard auction is more professional and less painful for managers to make a good team, therefore I again don't know what would be better.

- Regarding ZUPL
ZUPL was a lot of fun for me even tho my performance was mid. I think the current format is pretty good, although I understand the discussion on ADV > ORAS, I'm 100% against it. I do enjoy playing ORAS ZU but that is not the reason i'm not found of the idea. Cutting a mid oldgen really feels weird plus there is a high chance that ORAS gets like totally forgotten and stagnated if this happens. My take here would be to make ZUPL 10 slots. Keeping the current format and adding a slot for Multigen Bo3 and ADV. Before yall say that this is shit, let me present some actual arguments on this: Last ZUPL had 10 pages of player signups, PUPL X had 14 pages of player signups, while last NUPL and UUPL did also have 10. I'm saying this because all of those tours are 10-slots team tours, while ZUPL is 8 and gets a similar number of signups. OF COURSE the quality of signups should also be measured to some extent, and yall are right when you say that those tours tendly get more better players registered in them. I just don't think that 10-slot PL is something to be considered unviable, and I personally consider as a better solution than cutting a oldgen, that still has some support from veterans that enjoy the tier. Bo3 is just really cool and should be added, but if you wanna go boring mode that could be replaced with SV4 or whatever.

- Regarding Swiss
Swiss felt kinda meme on having a single 4-2 scorer qualified due to resistance (which may end up being really luck related). I think replacing it with another ssnl or majors seems like okay? The issue with this is that a ssnl takes too long and majors can also feel kinda unfair on pools, so maybe just keep Swiss as it is, we had about 50 signups for this year and 8 making playoffs is a fair number imo, could maybe extend to 12. I just don't think that we had until now enough signups for Swiss to be a good format, and the resistance thing also doesn't help. so maybe could make it a ssnl and get it running earlier or so.

 

[Tuthur]

Hey, I'm under the impression many of the posts fail to address the current issues with ORAS and why it's up to discussion as a removal from ZUPL.

The problem with ORAS in ZUPL is the drafting pool. It's hard to objectively quantify a pool being bad, but I'm still going to try to do it. ORAS has had the lowest signup numbers in the last two ZUPL (31 in 2023 and 22 in 2024). In 2024, half the pool was made of selfbought managers. Many ORAS ZU starters like a fruitshop owner and gorex have stated prefering to play other tiers but being locked into ORAS because the pool is too shallow. Players like Ho3n, Jett, shaneghoul, and TWiTT mentionning taking a step back from ZUPL (or Pokémon in general) is also not presaging anything good for the future of the tier.

But what many of the pro-ORAS posts seem to disregard is what we are missing out by having a low interest metagame featured in the tournament. The point is not to cut ORAS for the sake of it, it's to replace it with something better (ADV for instance, but there are other alternatives). This focusing too much on the (little) loss of ORAS instead of looking at what we are getting instead.

I think it's a cool metagame and I share the same worry a few players have shared in the ZU Discord that if ORAS is cut from ZUPL, it would never return again.

That's not a resonable concern. While many don't think ZUPL should move to 10 slots in 2025, it is another question for gen 10. 8 slots will be too few if we want to maintain every existing slots, while having more than 2 CG ZU. So gen 10, whether it is 2026 or 2027 will be a great moment to discuss reintroducing ORAS (or introducing anything else).

Below, I'll be replying to parts of pro-ORAS posts I disagree with. That doesn't mean I disregarded the rest of your post. I'm only quoting the parts I disagree to engage further discussion (which means I mostly agree with the rest of your post).

Playerbase concerns can always be mitigated as it's not the hardest tier to slot a pilot into, and God knows how many people thirsting for their 13th custom are signing up for these tours who actually can play.

ZUPL is a showcase of the best level of play in ZU. Having to slot pilots who never played the tier before and are thirsting for a custom avatar are the complete opposite of what I aim ZUPL to be. I'd really rather have mainers who are genuinely motivated about their tier.

I think that ORAS is a metagame that has a ton of room to grow and explore, but few people feel motivated to try it since it's an old metagame without a ton of activity.

It may have a smaller playerbase but it's nowhere near solved and nearly all playstyles ranging from hyper offense to stall to balanced offense to hazard stack are viable (and even commonplace) and healthy. Removing the tier from ZUPL will not only hurt the tier, but sets a bad example for other tiers that might have lower numbers (i.e. DPP) and similarly has a lot of depths to be explored. The tier is also relatively easy to pick up and play considering XY mechanics aren't overly restricting.

oras still has a shit ton of room for exploration, it's just that the gen is, in my opinion, kind of a nothing burger.

I don't really know why this point is being made. Another tier is just going to get explored instead. Pokémon can always be explored, whatever the tier is. SPL constantly explores Old Gens that are decades old, ZU tiers that don't have a tenth of the explorations of old gens over used can still be pushed further.

I feel that it's important to note that unlike gens 1-5, ORAS was a current gen ZU at one point. This means that we used to have much more activity and players involved that eventually moved on. It also means that much of the meta was developed years ago. That might have an effect on people not wanting to explore it as much because on the surface, it might not look like ORAS ZU has much exploration left. My feeling is that metas like ADV/GSC/RBY are new toys compared to ORAS.

Was it really? When I joined ZU in SM, before it got onto Smogon, it saw very little play and is really uncomparable to USUM-SS-SV which have had full PS and Smogon integration. As far as I know there are only three people who played current gen ORAS who are still active, one of them is Charles who doesnt signup for ZUPL and another is afo who'd prefer to play SM. Given its recent bans and its actual playerbase, ORAS seems very close to a new toy too, and is very different from 7-9.

It's a collective surrender to the idea that ORAS ZU is no longer a 'successful' metagame. I'm not oblivious to the handcuffs that exist in the builder, but options are plentiful and the pool is still competitive. The removal of ORAS ZU will not fix disinterest -- it will compound it.

then ORAS ZU will be even more stagnant then it already is.

if it were to be removed from zupl the reasons to try and innovate would only decrease more, as the tier would only then be in oly and cup (which already is a ton of recycling and this phenomenon would only increase). so yea, i do think that despite everything oras still needs to be in zupl.

there is a high chance that ORAS gets like totally forgotten and stagnated if this happens.

That's not a problem to me. As I said above, ZUPL is a showcase of the best of ZU and if ORAS is not the best of ZU, it doesn't deserve to be featured in ZUPL. The only ZU tier whose activity matters is CG ZU (i.e. SV). The rest is only bonus and maintaining interest for 8 non ladderable unofficial metagames is not a goal. The goal is not to fix disinterest, it is to move the spotlight onto the right metagame. For instance if ADV takes ORAS spot (the most likely outcome if ORAS gets cut), ORAS will join RBY and GSC as low activity ZU Old Gens and there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

 

[5gen]

Was it really? When I joined ZU in SM, before it got onto Smogon, it saw very little play and is really uncomparable to USUM-SS-SV which have had full PS and Smogon integration. As far as I know there are only three people who played current gen ORAS who are still active, one of them is Charles who doesnt signup for ZUPL and another is afo who'd prefer to play SM. Given its recent bans and its actual playerbase, ORAS seems very close to a new toy too, and is very different from 7-9.

My point was that when ORAS ZU was current gen, we did have a group of active players, then they moved on (i.e, kushalos, slarflar, acast, rennyjesus, and some others iirc). The more I think about it, "much more activity" is probably an overstatement because ORAS did get spotlight between ORAS Cup, Olympiad, and ZUPL. Poor wording from me.

I see your point about that the current player base is made up of newer users (speaking relatively). I kind of agree in that sense that ORAS is close to a new toy. I just don't think that the meta itself is a new toy in a similar way to the retro old gens (partly because of the meta's age). I get that that's semantics and not really relevant to the discussion of cutting ORAS though.

Like I noted in my post, it's tough to argue the numbers. Realistically, I think the only way ORAS ZU sticks around in ZUPL is if there's some resurgence for it and activity shoots up. All in all, I agree that metas with more active players should be in.

 

[OranBerryBlissey10]

ZUWC:
- Yes keep this tour absolutely, "breathing room" is a weak argument with only 4 teamtours. Additionally one should stay on that grindset since you haven't lived if you haven't had to schedule 12 tour games in a week while half of them wanna play on sunday.
- There were a lot of meme/arbitrary combinations (haha Kiribati funny) that should probably be ejected from the stratosphere in favor of normal regions + ROW. (idc about grandfathering this will literally be the second edition of zuwc)
- Personally I wouldn't mind some oldgens being included (like bw or ss, not only because they are arguably the best but also the ones with the most active players and advancement) but this isn't necessary at all especially with only 6 slots.

ZUOL:
- Apart from 10 slots + 6 teams seeming wack af, adding sv will turn it even more into the "budget zupl" that people fear it will become. 8 slots to match 8 oldgens is perfectly balanced and while once again I would not be hard opposed to format changes, they are not necessary at all.
- I don't know exactly how blind draft works, but it seems to sacrifice a lot of positive traits in favor of comedic value. We really do be simultaneously turning ZUOL into ZUPL but then artificially adapting it with external factors so it's not actually the same.

ZUPL:
- This is the BIG ONE. Omega Ruby Alpha Sapphire ZeroUsed. First of all, fuck Tuthur for tagging 3 banned people above but not the guy that went 4-1 last olympiad and spearheaded the Purugly ban. Secondly, Oras is a good and balanced meta with no obvious or inherent issues, so I will assume unless I hear otherwise that all the criticisms on it are purely external like mentioned in this thread. Thirdly, skipping an entire gen for fickle reasons like marginally lower signups or a couple managers slotting into oras is obviously a mistake. But lastly and most importantly, the proposed process is nothing but a self-fulfilling prophecy based on issues that are heavily overblown. Are the signups low? Yes. Are there a lot of "oras-heads" that are known for it and often play it? No. (s/o Charles) Are there a lot of oras discussions? Meh. Is the meta underdeveloped? Not really but I can see how it comes off that way. Like tuthur and danny yapped about in their nupl server, it can feel off-putting if a significant number of oras slots consists of managers slotting themselves there because they know they can farm the other, less experienced slots, either because they can't farm anywhere else or because it's the easiest solution for the lineup. However, nobody spawns with an inherent talent or interest for oras zu. Half the names on the aforementioned lists were thrown into oras at some point, and for better or for worse, made it through. For example, fish last zupl was an example of both and fended well for himself (ofc he would the offense fiend that he is) and shockingly survived while not being negative about it. Even if we play devil's advocate and assume that oras zu is the Wild East and the whole tier is nebulous and sandy and unknown, the managers and players with the best skills will develop a foothold the fastest or the best and profit from there. Even if there were 0 players that are likely to sign up to play oras, this is not inherently uncompetitive. Just like with most sv lower tiers, it is the opposite. Naturally, this is not the case and oras does have development and a playerbase. One that will likely grow or settle, but never require drastic action. Removing oras is a bad idea and should not even be considered.
- Taking arguments from the oras point and the ZUOL part, ZUPL should probably have 10 slots. Other lower tiers also have 10 slots, and zu is inferior to none of them despite the tragic unofficial status. Not only can it easily afford 10 slots, but would imo benefit it as well. More people playing zu => more people able to competitively play zu next time => ability to add more slots. It's not quantum mechanics, and the opposition against this is infected with a defeatist attitude. What those two extra slots should be is up for debate, but the obvious answer is to add adv and bo3. Adv has been historically active and solid while bo3 is good for both parity and spectator experience. An argument against bo3 I can see is that few players can play all of sv ss sm at a high level and that it unironically contains the tier where Swanna clicks the funny button and wins. While I certainly wouldn't mind other options like an extra sv or a second ss slot (or even make bo3 sv ss bw), I've yet to see much reasoning against a bo3 slot not originating from a certain french tl.

ZU SWISS:
- For reference, this year's PU Swiss had 32 playoff slots, with play-ins for the people at 4-2 with low resistance. This is a huge contrast with the measly 8 playoff slots that only had a single 4-2 make it in. Not only do I think play-ins are a better solution than resistance which is partially out of one's control, but if we really want to make the "lower signup number" argument then change it to top 16. Top 12 is fine too since it gives an advantage to people that did really well in the first 6 rounds but they should be increased either way.
- This could be replaced with masters but irdc, either tour is a slightly deviating individual with flaws that are not nearly big enough to demerit it.


This thread existing is a good thing, and I do hope more people speak their mind. (especially those that agree with me :)

 

[Tuthur]

Hi, seems like there is a general consensus on the individuals and we got a lot of times before ZUWC and ZUPL. However, I would like more discussions on ZU Olympiad if possible, as we barely have a full month to decide what changes we implement or not to it.

Reading posts here and on discord, it seems obvious to me that Olympiad's identity seems to be misunderstood. Some claim it's the old gen team tournament, some claim it's the beginner friendly tournament, some claim both of these are incompatible. So as Olympiad original designer, I want to explain what I believe Olympiad's identity is. Olympiad was created in opposition to ZUPL; they are approximately 6 months apart from each other and they both prone different values. ZUPL represents elitism, it only showcases the best of ZU, i.e. the most competitive of it. It only feature the main ZU generations, and has a custom avatar price to attract the best players on the site (and also because it's meant to be harder to win than other ZU teamtours). On the other hand, Olympiad is about inclusivity. It features every ZU old generations, so that they get an opportunity to be played in a team tournament. The average game level is also lower than ZUPL as the tournament is less attractive to the best players around (no custom). tldr: ZUPL is about quality, ZUOL is about quantity.

With this in mind, it only makes sense to me to include SV in some way in ZUOL. A great part of the community doesn't feel very interested in old gens and therefore in ZUOL. By including SV, you not only include the most played ZU metagames and the flagship metagame of our community, but you also expose more SV players to our old gens, which ends up benefiting them. Some people are very quick to say ZUOL never included CG ZU, when the tournament has only existed for 2 years, one of them featuring the flagship metagame of the time, SS ZU, as CG ZU didn't exist at that time.

The only downside I see to including SV is that we're probably lowering the average game level, as moving from 48 players to 60 players is going to hurt the quality of some slots. However, I don't think it is that bad as it will most likely also attract new signups from SV players who wouldn't have take part to the tournament. Also, it goes in hands with ZUOL being more about inclusivity than elitism.

I'm however not necessarly asking for 2 SV ZU slots. I think having one is needed, however I wouldn't mind the second slot being some BO3 form, as I know a lot of people have asked for it. I've been vocally against BO3 in ZUPL, for reasons I don't feel relevant to state here, however I don't think it's hurt ZUOL. There are many ways to design a BO3 slot for ZUOL (SV + SS + SM, SV + SS + BW, SV + 2 picked old gens, SV + 2 random non SV tiers). I don't have a strong opinion on this and would love more discussion and hear about your ideas on that.

The second discussion point for Olympiad is Blind Auctions versus regular auctions. I can understand worries from users such as skrimps on it hurting the quality of draft (though a regular format never stopped some managers to make up terrible teams). I'm with estra and Corthius seeming fun and something worth trying at least once. OBB is also right on it helping ZUOL developp an identity different from budget ZUPL, though I don't think it is necessary. I don't feel as strongly about this as CG inclusion, but I would really like to try it out once and re-open this topic next year to see how community appreciated it.

tldr: DISCUSS OLYMPIAD. Especially the two points outlined in my post.

 

[THE_CHUNGLER]

I very much support some SV inclusion in ZUOL, a bo3 slot would create some more hype matchups as there will still be ZUPL quality players signing up for this tour, but I also would never want to sign up and play a BO3 slot myself because of the extra work and stress required so I can’t in good faith support it for other people to play.

I think some SV slots will help continue to develop the metagame, keep ladder a bit more active, and sv players are a big part of the community.

The big one I am actually opposed to is blind draft, personally I think the format is much more boring than a regular draft and we would only be doing it to do something different rather than it being a fun draft format to participate in and watch. I agree with Skrimps’ points that it does not seem fun for managers, and also I believe it’s not as fun from a spectator POV. You don’t get to see the bids slowly climb, you don’t see when somebody drops 10k extra on a player to get the other drafters to stop bidding. It’s just anticlimactic. I also don’t like how it inflates the prices of certain big name players, which seems counterintuitive if we want this to be a more friendly tour to beginners. RU is doing a blind draft this week and after watching some of the mock drafts, I’ve been hugely unimpressed with this format. Just use the standard draft format, it’s fun to watch and I assume fun to plan and manage.

 

[sleid]

Adding 2 SV slots in ZUOL seems fine on paper to get more signups, so I'm not against it. I just fear (maybe I’m wrong here) that it would mean losing some strength in the oldgens if people would rather choose to play/try out SV in a lower stakes tour. Following that, I worry it would be a lot for on the manager side of things to handle 10 slots with 9 different generations (I understand other tournaments do this, but this is a different community with less people and less oldgen involvement). I don’t want to see people be spread too thin to where it sacrifices the gameplay in some slots. Again, don’t disagree with adding 2 slots, these are just concerns I wanted to bring up to put some feelers out there in case anyone had similar thoughts. Please don’t add Bo3.

I don’t have much to say on BD, but I just don’t think it’s a great idea and would rather stick to a normal draft format.

 

[BaitWiz]

I think +2 slots for ZUOL is good after sitting on this for a while, I always thought it was a bit odd that last year’s Olympiad didn’t have any SV slots and I think adding two SV slots would be a good way to remedy that. I’m kinda against blind draft just because it’d be a managerial nightmare and I personally would have significantly less interest in managing if blind draft was the format.

Quick final thing on ORAS in ZUPL - I’ve said this in a few places at this point, but I think our best course of action is to look at where it stands in Olympiad and evaluate from there.

 

[Drud]

i think olympiad needs at the very minimum 1 sv slot, but i would shoot for 2 by adding 2 slots making it 10 slots total, i can see 3 sv too with removing rby slots bc the zuers arent the ones playing rby anyway. adding more slots will decrease playing quality but ngl this tour isn't that serious/competitive anyway so i don't really care about that. cg is the most accessible zu gen anyway as it is the only tier in it with a ladder (not counting the rotational ladders for old gens)

i would strongly advice against doing a blind draft in olympiad because zu olympiad is a chance for aspiring team tour managers in zu to give it a shot managing and the experience of a normal auction is very valuable for someone who later on wants to manage zupl or different team tours on the site for example, let's make sure ppl get good managing experience so that zupl ends up more competitive too :).

keeping zuwc is a no brainer, the tournament wasn't great this year but it had a lot of players playing ZU that hadn't played it before which is obviously a great thing for the tier.

i don't have a strong take on whether oras should be in zupl, but i don't think the amount of zupl slots should be increased to 10. 10 slots in a long and competitive tour like this makes it even harder to properly support your whole lineup and causes even more burnout for those who try to, game quality was already lower than ideal in last zupl and all zupls before that and increasing it to 10 slots would make that even worse.

already mentioned on the discord the tours should be spaced out more, there was a big gap in individual tours at the start of the year for example with zu open starting january 1st and then the second individual only starting 3 months later, now at the end of the year we had 2 tours (swiss and classic) that are very time consuming, swiss is a very long tournament that unlike a big ssnl run, requires you to play every week, this being at the same time as classic which has 5 individual tours is a lot going on at the same time.

 

[BeeOrSomething]

Just putting in a quick word cause I don't have anything to say about most of this, but please keep olympiad as olympiad.

Having played in both PUBD and UUBD, the auctioning experience was painfully uninteresting and close to the level of snake draft, and having managed myself in several regular team tours, the highest amount of control for an auction is always the best for managers as well because it stays dynamic and you get the most sway over what you want your team to be.

The identity of ZUO as ZUO and not ZUBD is also something of mild note, though it's less important.

 

[Tuthur]

Thanks to everyone who took part to this thread.

Here is the schedule for 2025 ZU Circuit. We tried to take into account feedback by making the end of the year less loaded. We agreed to increase ZU Swiss playoffs from 8 to 12 players. Olympiad will be 6 teams 10 slots with 2 SV slots added from last year; it will still have regular auctions. World Cup has been maintained and format discussion threads for it and ZUPL will be open closer to when these tours start. Hosts for ZU Olympiad will be Clyde and AC7.