Okay maybe i exaggerated it a bit but i believe Zygarde wins 65% to 70% of time but if you dont like it then to each their own. Now looking back at the coil dance set posted do you guys think between leftovers for recovery lum berry for status or yache berry to resist ice which is the most viable? I originally believed the passive recovery, his only recovery, from leftovers would be the most viable but the other items can really save him and allow him to preform a successful sweep.
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Pokémon Zygarde
- Thread starter ChaosNemesis
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Just for the record, I'm not arguing that Zygarde isn't viable in OU. I don't understand where that sentiment is coming from. I am in fact just saying that Zygarde shouldn't be taking on Azumarill, something with which everyone seems to be agreeing.
Also this isn't really the place for it, but CB Crawdaunt outclassing CB Azumarill? Hardly. They're barely even comparable with their different typing allowing for different switch ins and different match ups. A stronger Aqua Jet =/= outclassed.
Also this isn't really the place for it, but CB Crawdaunt outclassing CB Azumarill? Hardly. They're barely even comparable with their different typing allowing for different switch ins and different match ups. A stronger Aqua Jet =/= outclassed.
Kairyu_Gen1 said:
No, that was me who originally posted that calc.
Kairyu_Gen1 said:
False.
Kairyu_Gen1 said:
Also false.
Kairyu_Gen1 said:
Who said that?
Kairyu_Gen1 said:
One-on-one matchups against single pokemon do not prove viability. Scizor will always lose to Torkoal 1-on-1 - doesn't mean Torkoal is good in OU.
I'm not trying to bash Zygarde. But the stuff you're saying does not make sense.
The thing is that Zygarde can potentially defeat Azumarill on the switch in at least depending on the set. The only set i see completely destroying Z is choice banded play rough. Even then what if Z has already been given a chance to set up a DD or Coil and attacks with and earthquake. Will azu survive? Why wouldn't you send in azu its an easy win for him isnt it?
Azumarill can survive a +1 EQ.
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%)
Either way, it doesn't matter because I never said that Azumarill was a counter to Zygarde in the first place.
My bad
I didn't mean for the Crawdaunt comment to be taken so literally, but Crawdaunt's banded aqua jets are better than Azumarill's, so they are comparable. I will admit that outclassed was a terrible choice of word on my part, but it was mostly meant as a light joke.
My Zygarde does beat most Azumarills it meets (somewhere in between 60 and 70%)
Nobody really said don't run Zygarde because of Azumarill, but several people said not to use him because he has too many checks, and one of the biggest checks suggested was Azumarill. I think I've successfully proved that the theory that Azumarill is a major check for Zygarde is:
false.
And finally, one-on-one match ups are a decent indicator of how good a pokemon is (unless they're a support 'mon). If a pokemon can beat 3/4 of the OU tier in 1v1 most of the time, then I think its a decent choice for an OU team. Torkoal isn't a good example because it can only beat about 1/10 of the OU tier in 1v1, so it sucks.
Edit:If a Zygarde had a coil under its belt, banded azu won't OHKO anymore, so switching an Azumarill into a set up Zygarde is a terrible idea
Well if its on the switch that allows Zygarde to win due to superior speed. The was you guys have been saying it makes it sound like its terrible for Z to go up against Azu when it can still go toe to toe with it at least leave a big dent in Azu. Ill be honest i thought the +1 wouldve done more :/ i also forgot about coil that gives it more defense to survive attacks from azu so switching in on Z isnt exactly great for azu. No one(at least i hope) would switch in Zygarde on azu unless there was no other option in that case i give it to azu.
Kairyu_Gen1 said:
That's not what I said. I said that just because a Pokemon has a good matchup against ONE OU pokemon doesn't mean it's good. You said that "the sort of stale mate between the two just proves Zygarde's viability" as if being able to take on Azumarill alone proved its viability.
EDIT: BTW, if Zygarde already got a boost by the time Azumarill switches in, then it's not a 1-on-1.
Considering azumarill is a very popular pokemon now and is arguably that best fairy and can be defeated by Zygarde which is really the underdog dragon this gen shows some of his viablity. Of course taking on one pokemon doesnt prove his status but that works in reverse too just because he can be checked by azu doesnt make him bad but you guys never implied that so i say we should move on and discuss why he is viable in OU.
LoneWolf X14 said:
This.
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all right, calm down dude. when I said his ability to stand against Azumarill proved his viability, I was referring to what I believe is Zygarde's best attribute, being able to take out what should be his counters. He can beat offensive dragons fairly reliably, he can beat defensive fairies most of the time, and he can hold his own with other threats like azumarill. How can anybody say this guy isn't OU viable? (that was directed at people in the gen 6 OU speculation thread claiming Zygarde is strictly UU, not anyone on this thread. PLEASE don't take that comment way overboard like y'all have on all my other loose comments)
Anyway, Zygarde's OU viablility is truly manifest in his access to powerful boosting moves (DD and coil), adequate coverage (ground+rock), priority move (extremespeed), his unique stat distribution that lets him not only set up easily on common pokemon, but defeat pokemon that theoretically check him, and his access to interesting moves like glare and haze.
Reasons he might not make OU are that ice beam and HP ice are common and dangerous, and his unique playing style will mean he might not get adequate usage.
Actually idk i feel against offensive dragons he wont win most of the time due to fact that offensive dragons will often 1)maximize speed 2)SE dragon attacks 3)Zygarde relies on his bulk to survive and unless he's already got a boost in i dont think he'll come out on top now if he gets dual screens or sticky web support now the game is in his favor.
Edit: Hp ice (well all hp attacks) were nerfed as i remember which could help him out then again he could use the yache berry to let him live and fight another day.
Edit: Hp ice (well all hp attacks) were nerfed as i remember which could help him out then again he could use the yache berry to let him live and fight another day.
Although I don't have a LOT to offer in this thread, let me say this one thing. Although it is true that Zygrade having the potential to beat Azumarill shows a bit of viability, let me point out something
Azumarill isn't exactly a very difficult pokemon to counter, so I don't see why the Azumarill argument is so important in the first place, its much more important to see what else it can counter and/or what sets/etc are viable on this Pokemon. I just feel like the topic has been directed the wrong way. I see why, if a Dragon type is able to take out one of the biggest fairy type, then it has some worth. But there still a chance that Azumarill might be able to take out this thing if not used right, and considering my gripe with Zygarde is that it is a bit obscure and difficult to use, its a little unattractive to me. Its one of those pokemon that is fantastic if the pokemon is used right. And I'm not exactly sure if Zygarde is worth the strategy that needs to be used. Although Zygarde is a viable pokemon, I'm not sure if its good enough to compete in the OU tier.
If I insulted some of you, sorry, and if some of my opinions are false, then I'm sorry for that too. I'm not exactly the most "competitive" player, but I do have some sort of say in this argument as I do have some experience in the metagame.
Azumarill isn't exactly a very difficult pokemon to counter, so I don't see why the Azumarill argument is so important in the first place, its much more important to see what else it can counter and/or what sets/etc are viable on this Pokemon. I just feel like the topic has been directed the wrong way. I see why, if a Dragon type is able to take out one of the biggest fairy type, then it has some worth. But there still a chance that Azumarill might be able to take out this thing if not used right, and considering my gripe with Zygarde is that it is a bit obscure and difficult to use, its a little unattractive to me. Its one of those pokemon that is fantastic if the pokemon is used right. And I'm not exactly sure if Zygarde is worth the strategy that needs to be used. Although Zygarde is a viable pokemon, I'm not sure if its good enough to compete in the OU tier.
If I insulted some of you, sorry, and if some of my opinions are false, then I'm sorry for that too. I'm not exactly the most "competitive" player, but I do have some sort of say in this argument as I do have some experience in the metagame.
Its ok we've already moved pass that argument. We've moved on to discuss why he is viable in OU. Idk how it got to that argument but both sides have already moved passed it lol.
I think he is viable in OU and actually his biggest threats aren't fairies surprisingly there other dragons that are faster and offensively inclined. Ice attacks really threaten him but most dragons have the same problem. Fairy pokemon are generally frail especially defensively not spdef bad def which means he has no problem earthquaking and gg. Now i believe because of his bulk he can go up against the flying dragons bc of stone edge boosted by coil or DD. Garchomp i see as huge threat but if Z has accumulated some boosts he still has a chance. Dual screens or sticky web support really helps this guy.
I think he is viable in OU and actually his biggest threats aren't fairies surprisingly there other dragons that are faster and offensively inclined. Ice attacks really threaten him but most dragons have the same problem. Fairy pokemon are generally frail especially defensively not spdef bad def which means he has no problem earthquaking and gg. Now i believe because of his bulk he can go up against the flying dragons bc of stone edge boosted by coil or DD. Garchomp i see as huge threat but if Z has accumulated some boosts he still has a chance. Dual screens or sticky web support really helps this guy.
I was literally going to say this. Because Z's best sets forego Outrage, for fair reasons, his biggest problem isn't Fairies it's other Dragons. With Coil Lati twins really fuck Z over, particularly with Levitate. Same with Hydreigon actually. Haxorus can either outspeed a DANCE version with scarf and f you with Outrage, and you'd need multiple Coils to come out against even unboosted Outrage. Garchomp is still naturally faster, packs Dragon moves and sometimes Draco Meteor where your defense won't matter. And you have to account for Dragonite's multiscale. So he'll maybe a Dragon berry is a safer bet lol but Z isn't really playing like other Dragons at this point. He's more like a bulkier Excadrill with reversed weaknesses. He's purely a late game sweeper where he has the bulk to get multiple boosts, or at the very least you can revenge with ES in the interim.
Exactly he's a unique dragon who's main role isnt to sweep like his brothers he comes in great as a late game bulky sweeper and since dragons are common and usually quite threatening its good to have a counter to dragons on your team which will improve his success. (Lol imagine a fairy ice type the bane of dragons) Although most people may not use dual screens they really get rid of his weaknesses to everything except ice. Does anyone know of great partners for him? It would have to be something that can take ice attacks and defeat dragons rather easily. Im not mentioning fairies because of the reasons posted in my other posts.
Zygarde, it would seem, has the tools to carve himself a niche in OU. Even if he doesn't sweep, he can also function as a revenge killer or a a bulwark against boosted faster Pokemon by taking a hit, hitting with EQ or Stone Edge and ExtremeSpeed. My Zygarde did take a crit Bug Buzz from a +1 leftovers Volcarona. That is not the optimal way to use it, but that's utility right there.
Let's us not forget can have a 100% accurate EdgeQuake combo, and he can maintain flexibility during his sweep since he does not have to use Outrage or risk a Stone Edge miss in order to hit something that resists or is immune to Earthquake. Extreme Speed mitigates its lower speed and power because he can chain an Extreme Speed to an Earthquake or Stone Edge to knock the last bit of HP if he attacks second.
As stated before, it has more base physical and special bulk than a Hippowdon, even though it is not a wall as he has no noteworthy recovery moves. I think that is significant and can be exploited by an astute player, so it is not merely an ersatz Garchomp.
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Kairyu, would play Zygarde is it had Bulk Up instead of Coil? I most likely wouldn't.
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I would not, as in many fights, stone edge is vital to getting any momentum and that would instantly fall apart if you miss a key attack against something like a talonflame, volcarona, or togekiss. There'd still be his DD set, but imo, those sets are outclassed by other dragons so his coil set is what sets him apart, so you are totally right in your analysis.
Looks like the nature here is between Adamant and Careful. ( abuse of bulk as oppose to improve on its abysmal base attack )
Looks like the boost here is either; Coil, Dragon Dance, or both. ( but why use both, was there good evidence that both was better than 2x of an individual? )
Looks like the attack choice here is: Earthquake, Stone Edge, Outrage, and Extremespeed OR EQ/Dragon Tail/Glare.
(( going to catch one so trying to get all my facts ))
edit:
No idea what I should do with its EVs.
I am thinking:
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Trait: Aura Break
EVs: ???????
Adamant Nature
- Coil
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Extreme Speed
Looks like the boost here is either; Coil, Dragon Dance, or both. ( but why use both, was there good evidence that both was better than 2x of an individual? )
Looks like the attack choice here is: Earthquake, Stone Edge, Outrage, and Extremespeed OR EQ/Dragon Tail/Glare.
(( going to catch one so trying to get all my facts ))
edit:
No idea what I should do with its EVs.
I am thinking:
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Trait: Aura Break
EVs: ???????
Adamant Nature
- Coil
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Extreme Speed
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^ phiferwolf there was evidence of double boosting being viable there is replay a few pages back showcasing it properly.
Edit: Coil Dance focuses more on being a late game bulky sweeper than all out attacking like a DD set or a more bulky set like a Coil set. Consider it a middle ground between the two still having a great edgequake coverage.
Edit: Coil Dance focuses more on being a late game bulky sweeper than all out attacking like a DD set or a more bulky set like a Coil set. Consider it a middle ground between the two still having a great edgequake coverage.
This is the set I've been using and have actually been using 252 Atk and Spe with 4 in HP as getting a coil up asap is much more valuable than a little extra bulk. This is the set I think will make or break Zygarde (EV's are still up for grabs though) for its ability to take any threat on.
It is nice to be able to boost Spe and/or depending on what the opponent gives you, but I'd rather just go for coil and have a pocket priority move ready to use than broadcast a +1 speed to be countered by a scarf or priority user, but that's just me.
I use max hp over speed. What threats do you deem worthy of outspeeding? For my set, your argument about Zygarde surviving a LO Ice Shard is moot, since it would be outsped by Mamoswine invested in speed, and can be hit with Icicle Crash.
Besides Mamoswine, I would say variants of Gliscor, but Zygarde should not deal with Gliscor as it loses due to toxic stall and its bulk.
without 252 ev's, Gyarados, Dragonite, Mamoswine, Landorus T, and Skarmary (to name a few relavent ones) outspeed him with a positive nature. You make a good point, but there's still enough Jolly Dragonites out there that speed might be worth investing in.
Edit: I think I might switch to 252 atk, 236 spe, and 20 hp. That still outspeeds the ones listed above, but 4 extra hp points can't hurt can they?
Has anyone been using the physically defensive set? I'm using the set listed in the OP to check/counter Talonflame and other physical sweepers. He's insanely bulky, he takes a pittance from anything not super effective and/or boosted.
Coil set only wants to do one boost and then 2HKO stuff. Ideally you would want +2 boosts, and wreck stuff. I thought you were running a coil set, in that case would you really need the speed?
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