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Pokémon Zygarde

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Aoda said:
Coil set only wants to do one boost and then 2HKO stuff. Ideally you would want +2 boosts, and wreck stuff. I thought you were running a coil set, in that case would you really need the speed?
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I haven't mastered the Coil set yet, but you still want to outrun things that can OHKO or 2HKO Zygarde or outrun things that he can OHKO without incurring damage or status. Mamoswine is an issue with the max HP version since he is probably the only physical threat that can still OHKO at +1 def. I suppose Jolly or Adamant Mamoswine is a nice benchmark, since that also covers Dragonite and Gyarados too.

Outrunning Dragonite means either:

Zygarde Coil, Dragonite Outrage

Zygarde Stone Edge (with multiscale broken)

or

Zygarde Coil, Dragonite Dragon Dragon Dace

Dragonite Outrage, Zygarde Outrage

if multiscale not broken, Zygarde Extreme Speed

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Well, it is an advantage to get Coil up first, since in the second scenario, one is taking as much damage as an unboosted Outrage, and a subsequent guaranteed KO with Stone Edge. For Mamoswine, there is no time to set-up, the best one can hope for a Stone Edge hit, since it is likely Mamoswine has Icicle Crash.
 
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Calm_Mind_Latias said:
I haven't mastered the Coil set yet, but you still want to outrun things that can OHKO or 2HKO Zygarde or outrun things that he can OHKO without incurring damage or status. Mamoswine is an issue with the max HP version since he is probably the only physical threat that can still OHKO at +1 def. I suppose Jolly or Adamant Mamoswine is a nice benchmark, since that also covers Dragonite and Gyarados too.

Outrunning Dragonite means either:

Zygarde Coil, Dragonite Outrage

Zygarde Stone Edge (with multiscale broken)

or

Zygarde Coil, Dragonite Dragon Dragon Dace

Dragonite Outrage, Zygarde Outrage

if multiscale not broken, Zygarde Extreme Speed

----

Well, it is an advantage to get Coil up first, since in the second scenario, one is taking as much damage as an unboosted Outrage, and a subsequent guaranteed KO with Stone Edge. For Mamoswine, there is no time to set-up, the best one can hope for a Stone Edge hit, since it is likely Mamoswine has Icicle Crash.
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Main problem with this is that Outrage will lock. Anyway,
Aoda said:
Coil set only wants to do one boost and then 2HKO stuff. Ideally you would want +2 boosts, and wreck stuff. I thought you were running a coil set, in that case would you really need the speed?
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I think you're referring to the more physically defensive/tank sets. This set exemplifies the play the opponent, not the pokemon philosophy. To use it right, you need a physical attack bait to sacrifice and an adequate understanding of the opponent's team and playing style. If you any special attacking threats, then focus hard on getting coils to overcome the bulky ones with earthquake and the fast ones with extremespeed. Its really a game of judging how many boosts you can get without losing too much health, and its not easy to pull off, but it works because of the threats it outspeeds and OHKO's if you get the boosts
 
Kairyu_Gen1 said:
Main problem with this is that Outrage will lock. Anyway,

I think you're referring to the more physically defensive/tank sets. This set exemplifies the play the opponent, not the pokemon philosophy. To use it right, you need a physical attack bait to sacrifice and an adequate understanding of the opponent's team and playing style. If you any special attacking threats, then focus hard on getting coils to overcome the bulky ones with earthquake and the fast ones with extremespeed. Its really a game of judging how many boosts you can get without losing too much health, and its not easy to pull off, but it works because of the threats it outspeeds and OHKO's if you get the boosts
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I meant to say "Stone Edge". I do not like Outrage though, especially in Gen 6.
 
I really like the DD set listed in the analysis with enough speed to outspeed 130s. I use DD/EQ/Stone Edge/ Extreme Speed with Yache berry. This thing is a really great mid-late game sweeper and I love picking off weakened Talonflames with Extreme Speed. It has trouble with more dedicated walls like Skarmory, Gliscor, and Hippowdon but it's able to hit extremely hard with Earthquake at +1. It's bulky nature combined with an amazing priority move make it a really solid Pokemon on many teams.
 
So an offensive coil set would be something like this?

Zygarde@Leftovers
Adamant
252 hp 252 atk 4 spdef or
252 atk 252 speed 4 hp which is better?
Coil
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Extremespeed

I need help with the evs though i cant decide which is better

Edit: if he ever got dragon rush from move tutors how viable would it be with coil?
 
There are four big potential threats to Zygarde in the 80 speed tier, Dragonite, Togekiss, Gardevoir and Mamoswine. Even with Coil I think it's a pretty good idea to run enough speed to outpace those guys. Jolly with 136 Spd means you'll outrun all max speed variants of those four, as well as Timid Heatran. You can then max out At or HP. Jolly 216 though means you will be faster than Lucario switch ins before they can Megavolve and use Ice Punch so if you think that will be an issue it's worth considering. It's a lot to invest but its at up to you if its worth it. CoilDance variants have more leeway

Oh and Dragon Rush after one Coil hits 82.5% accuracy, so a bit better than normal Stone Edge or Hydro Pump. One more puts you at a comfortable 90.75% accuracy, totally viable.
 
Jaroda said:
There are four big potential threats to Zygarde in the 80 speed tier, Dragonite, Togekiss, Gardevoir and Mamoswine. Even with Coil I think it's a pretty good idea to run enough speed to outpace those guys. Jolly with 136 Spd means you'll outrun all max speed variants of those four, as well as Timid Heatran. You can then max out At or HP. Jolly 216 though means you will be faster than Lucario switch ins before they can Megavolve and use Ice Punch so if you think that will be an issue it's worth considering. It's a lot to invest but its at up to you if its worth it. CoilDance variants have more leeway

Oh and Dragon Rush after one Coil hits 82.5% accuracy, so a bit better than normal Stone Edge or Hydro Pump. One more puts you at a comfortable 90.75% accuracy, totally viable.
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I thought Coil increases accuracy by 1.33, so it is about 100%.
 
Yeah i saw the extremespeed sets posted so I decided to try them out. Unfortunately i only have an adamant Zygarde and the other is quirky. A lot of Dragonites are using a weakness policy set without extremespeed from what ive seen. Its usually outrage dd elemental punch then e speed or e quake.

Edit: nevermind what i said why is the accuracy boost so small i though it was a 1.33 increase?

Its good to note it has a base speed stat of 95 out speeding unboosted dragonite. I also still believe the coildance set is still viable(i support it greatly)but what about extremespeed taking care of his speed loss on a Strictly coil set. Would it be better to invest in hp or speed. Also extremespeed already has +2 priority.
 
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Jaroda said:
There are four big potential threats to Zygarde in the 80 speed tier, Dragonite, Togekiss, Gardevoir and Mamoswine. Even with Coil I think it's a pretty good idea to run enough speed to outpace those guys. Jolly with 136 Spd means you'll outrun all max speed variants of those four, as well as Timid Heatran. You can then max out At or HP. Jolly 216 though means you will be faster than Lucario switch ins before they can Megavolve and use Ice Punch so if you think that will be an issue it's worth considering. It's a lot to invest but its at up to you if its worth it. CoilDance variants have more leeway

Oh and Dragon Rush after one Coil hits 82.5% accuracy, so a bit better than normal Stone Edge or Hydro Pump. One more puts you at a comfortable 90.75% accuracy, totally viable.
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Yes, it would be viable, if Zygarde even learned Dragon Rush. It's actually Yveltal that learns Dragon Rush, not Zygarde, unfortunately.
 
^ yeah i was just thinking dragon rush from a move tutor in the next game. I think ive come to a conclusion regarding evs. If your going to invest in speed run dd set because your not taking advantage of his bulk if you invest in hp run coil and let extremespeed take care of the speed loss.
 
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Jaroda said:
There are four big potential threats to Zygarde in the 80 speed tier, Dragonite, Togekiss, Gardevoir and Mamoswine. Even with Coil I think it's a pretty good idea to run enough speed to outpace those guys. Jolly with 136 Spd means you'll outrun all max speed variants of those four, as well as Timid Heatran. You can then max out At or HP. Jolly 216 though means you will be faster than Lucario switch ins before they can Megavolve and use Ice Punch so if you think that will be an issue it's worth considering. It's a lot to invest but its at up to you if its worth it. CoilDance variants have more leeway

Oh and Dragon Rush after one Coil hits 82.5% accuracy, so a bit better than normal Stone Edge or Hydro Pump. One more puts you at a comfortable 90.75% accuracy, totally viable.
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In regards to the base 80 speed threats, I just run Adamant with 236 EV's. Jolly 252 dragonite has 284 speed, and with 236 EVs you win. As for the Lucario, crunch is still the coverage move of choice, so I'm not sure if the loss of Atk is worth the speed. Plus, I don't get many lucarios switching into me. A couple will go for the revenge kill, but in general they avoid my Zygarde.

As for the dragon rush, we probably shouldn't talk about "what if" scenarios like this, but if Zygarde were to get it, I would definitely try it out. I probably wouldn't try it without coil though.
 
I think he's most optimal like this:
Zygarde@Leftovers/Life Orb
Adamant
252atk 252spe 252spdef
Coil/Dragon Dance
Earthquake
Stone Edge/Outrage
Extremespeed

The first set is coil it has more staying power and the other is dd with more offensive presence. Personally i think his coil set will be his staple set. His niche is his great movepool and good bulk. The coil set is there to take advantage of his bulk with coil and lefties and give him a completely safe edgequake combo.
 
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Kairyu_Gen1 said:
In regards to the base 80 speed threats, I just run Adamant with 236 EV's. Jolly 252 dragonite has 284 speed, and with 236 EVs you win. As for the Lucario, crunch is still the coverage move of choice, so I'm not sure if the loss of Atk is worth the speed. Plus, I don't get many lucarios switching into me. A couple will go for the revenge kill, but in general they avoid my Zygarde.

As for the dragon rush, we probably shouldn't talk about "what if" scenarios like this, but if Zygarde were to get it, I would definitely try it out. I probably wouldn't try it without coil though.
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My point was both are late game sweepers generally, and are forced to send their Lucario when push comes to shove at the end. It's still a noteworthy benchmark considering it's one of the most popular megas. You'll also have a lot more EVs to put into HP if you go Jolly, which can be worth it since you'll be boosting your Attack regardless.

And I totally disagree with Life Orb, which is counter intuitive to the bulky nature motif. You can still potentially sweep end game with 15% health with Extreme Speed with enough boosts, but you can't with Life Orb. Leftovers or Lum Berry bar none if you ask me. And I like Coil because ESpeed gives you the speed when you need it and Coil actually makes Stone Edge reliable.
 
When running coil is it better to invest in hp or speed? Also jolly lets you invest more in bulk but adamant gives you more strength so in natures i think its all up to preference.
 
No mathematically there are clear advantages. If you aren't using a speed boosting move than you want a certain amount of speed to outrun certain threats, the majority of which are in the 80 bracket. The difference between Attack and Speed is a mere 5 BST. Jolly means you get a lot more EVs to distribute IF you want to outpace that particular tier. Having slightly less At is not a huge deal when you get to boost it with Coil anyway.
 
So invest in speed got it. Unfortunately my Zygarde is adamant so i cant use the jolly spread :( regardless of the fact that he wont have that little extra bulk from a jolly nature at least he'll be hitting a little harder :/ *shrugs*

Is outrage even helpful on this guy? It feels weird not using dragon stab lol
 
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Jaroda said:
My point was both are late game sweepers generally, and are forced to send their Lucario when push comes to shove at the end. It's still a noteworthy benchmark considering it's one of the most popular megas. You'll also have a lot more EVs to put into HP if you go Jolly, which can be worth it since you'll be boosting your Attack regardless.

And I totally disagree with Life Orb, which is counter intuitive to the bulky nature motif. You can still potentially sweep end game with 15% health with Extreme Speed with enough boosts, but you can't with Life Orb. Leftovers or Lum Berry bar none if you ask me. And I like Coil because ESpeed gives you the speed when you need it and Coil actually makes Stone Edge reliable.
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Yes, if your opponent only has physical Pokemon, then you can sweep with it and just spam Coil until you have enough boosts.
 
LoneWolf X14 said:
So invest in speed got it. Unfortunately my Zygarde is adamant so i cant use the jolly spread :( regardless of the fact that he wont have that little extra bulk from a jolly nature at least he'll be hitting a little harder :/ *shrugs*

Is outrage even helpful on this guy? It feels weird not using dragon stab lol
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If you're talking about your wifi team you should be fine. Outrage honestly is fine as long as it isn't choiced. If there are no Fairies around then it really is a great end sweeper, but better so with the speed. So imo...

Dragon Dance with Outrage.
Coil with Extremespeed.

Earthquake and Stone Edge should be there no matter what.
 
I was thinking outrage could replace stone edge though the extremespeed seems to important to pass up. Also the fact that with dragon dance stone edge isnt perfect accuracy so i agree dragon dance with outrage but i thought stone edge with coil would make more sense from what i know of its only walled by togekiss and skarmory but skarm doesnt really much to the coil set and defeating opposing dragons is easier on a dd set
 
Jaroda said:
If you're talking about your wifi team you should be fine. Outrage honestly is fine as long as it isn't choiced. If there are no Fairies around then it really is a great end sweeper, but better so with the speed. So imo...

Dragon Dance with Outrage.
Coil with Extremespeed.

Earthquake and Stone Edge should be there no matter what.
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I certainly agree with the mandatory EdgeQuake. However as I recently posted in C&C, I feel that Extremespeed is severely overrated on a defensive Coil set. Even at +2 it deals pitiful damage, and it can't even OHKO a 0/0 Greninja at +4 for goodness sake. Substitute is nearly always the better option, because status is flying everywhere this gen. Any WoW or Toxic will end your sweep early, and it allows Zygarde to set up against most defensive Pokemon.
 
Extreme speed is important because you dont use it the first turn you attack with earthquake and then use extreme speed to finish them off at least thts how i envisioned it. Its also a late game sweeper so it can be valuable at times when picking off weak pokemon.
 
The beauty in ESpeed however lies in the facts that A) it outspeeds other priority moves, B) it helps Zygarde finish off fast stragglers and perform as a revenge killer before end game and C) since he should primarily be saved for end game he's meant to pick off weakened threats and not sweep 100% HP foes with it alone. I wouldn't suggest anything attempt a sweep with a non STAB priority move. If you've ever used a Conkeldurr then you know how nice it is to have a priority move for when your bread and butter attacks don't quite one shot a faster threat.
 
I understand where you're coming from, believe me! I actually started out using the Coil / EQ / SE / ESpeed set first, but I changed ESpeed to Sub and never looked back. My reasoning is:

A) Outspeeding priority isn't important because priority will bounce right off a boosted Zygarde.
B) Picking off weakened opponents is nice, but they need to be severely weakened for ESpeed. Zygarde should have the bulk to simply tank their hits anyway.
C) You're right, but in the same vein, you shouldn't be trying to sweep with Zygarde if there are still faster threats that can threaten to KO him anyway.

ESpeed sounds nice on paper, but in practice I found it nearly useless. What are you going to use it for? Anything that can threaten Zygarde isn't going to mind a +1 Extremespeed because it's pathetically weak. Sub is important because:

A) Blocks all the Toxic / WoWs flying around in OU (Rotom is the most common mon in OU and losing to WoW sucks).
B) Allows Zygarde to set up on defensive threats (Rotom only has roughly a 25% chance to break Zygarde's sub with Hydro Miss).
C) Eases predictions by giving you a buffer against incoming switches, to use the correct coverage move.

Both have their merits, but I'd go with Sub on a specially defensively set. Extremespeed has more merit if you're running an offensive 252 HP / 252+ Atk, for example.

+2 0 Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 159-188 (55.7 - 65.9%)
+2 252+ Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 221-261 (77.5 - 91.5%)
 
I totally see the merit in Sub. Certainly a great choice. I personally go the ESpeed and Lum route though, same with Haxorus, because I love the face of people when they try to get a WoW and you get a free boost and proceed to sweep. Poor Rotom, doesn't stand a chance against Mold Breaker Haxorus EQ...

And yeah, ESpeed is fantastic for finishing off Talonflames for example, or other fast weakened threats.
 
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