Defining the NU Tier

[Cynthia]

I'm personally not a big Armaldo fan (SR weak and slow? Oh joy.), but the consensus seems to be a movement up. It won't have a perma SS though.

Along the same lines, Cradily should also remain UU. The SD sweeper set could be extra deadly in an environment with lower defenses and a lack of STAB fighting attacks.

Luxray should go up too methinks. Its stats are actually pretty good, and I've actually seen some Luxrays in UU matches.

 

[Age of Kings]

OU doesn't matter here... I doubt people are spamming "Sandstorm" in UU.. <<;

Also, where's Butterfree? I believe he can function quite well in UU and in NU. The question is if almost guaranteed sleep / paralysis matters that much in NU..

I posted about OU because it was my only battling experience with Armaldo. The point I wanted to bring across is that if it gets set up at all, it's nearly unstoppable, only crippled by status. It can set up SS for itself, Rock Polish on the switch, and make the kill. Of course, it only proves even more Armaldo should be UU.

Butterfree is somewhat slow for double powder, and the standard runs basically the same set it did in ADV, except perhaps by the odd Choice Scarf. I have no problem with it being in NU. Xatu gets special mention for Synchronize, Noctowl for Insomnia, but the only problem is that it neither carry any STAB Flying moves. All in all, stoppable. If BP Plusle leads become in vogue like they were in ADV NU for a time, Butterfree is in even more trouble, except it also now learns NP, in addition to the Substitute and Agility it had before.

 

[Mizuno]

Mizuno- We have no UU statisics to work with, as there is no UU ladder. Thus we cannot determine some sort of % to separate the Pokemon, so power will be the main method of seprartion, mainly determined by user consenuses.

I know, that is currently the main problem. If I'm not mistaken, there will be an UU ladder on the Smogon Shoddy server, which should help create that division between UU and NU. If we decide to devide UU/NU now without usage statistics, we will probably have to do it again due to having usage statistics then. I'm not saying this discussion is pointless, it should help a lot on the placement of some Pokemon. Hopefully we can get that UU ladder soon!

I did mention usage: but we aren't judging because some very well viable Pokemon that aren't NU material just aren't used in UU, and also as has been mentioned, lack of a UU ladder. Cacturne isn't used due to pathetic speed, terrible defenses, and the number of fighting type Pokemon (read: Hitmontop) that won't mind the Sucker Punch and will promptly proceed to OHKO, but that's the environment it's in. Doesn't make it terrible enough for NU, where it will absolutely rape any team that doesn't have, say, Swalot.

I know what you mean, but that is why I said it is possible that we may have to make a "NU BL" tier. Say if Cacturne falls into NU, but is proved to be to strong for that environment, then it is placed in this "NU BL" tier. I know it will be another tier, which a lot of people will probably dislike, but it is possible this may have to be done. Only testing will prove this.

 

[Age of Kings]

I know what you mean, but that is why I said it is possible that we may have to make a "NU BL" tier. Say if Cacturne falls into NU, but is proved to be to strong for that environment, then it is placed in this "NU BL" tier. I know it will be another tier, which a lot of people will probably dislike, but it is possible this may have to be done. Only testing will prove this.

I think NU BL would be utterly asinine; we have it here temporarily for discussion purposes, but a permanent one would make things utterly confusing. With UU vs. NU, if there's some reservations about inclusion into NU, it remains in UU. I do agree, however, that some need extensive testing, but that won't be for awhile. Given many of the posts and even our rough draft tier list, NU is very, very premature at this point (god, this thread is even less than an hour old xD), so we have to first take a straight black and white stance before we do any sort of testing suggestions.

 

[umbarsc]

Okay, let me get a straight answer: Are we trying to create a balanced NU metagame?

The original post made it sound like NU was a "faux" tier, but some of the arguments you've used are "Torkoal would be useful in NU" and "Cacturne overpowers NU".

 

[seds]

Carnivine isn't on your list...But it probably should go to NU.




It is outclassed by (many) pure grass types, with 74/100/72/90/72/46 for statistics. The fellow has Power Whip, Crunch, and Return for physical moves. It has grass moves, Sludge bomb and hidden power for special attacks.

It has -mediocre- defensive stats, but not aweful, and it is slow as octillery. In UU, there are grass/poisons that wall it to no end, and there are a few steels and altaria to tank it's hits.


HOWEVER.

It has swords dance, synthesis, sleep powder, stun spore, synthesis, leech seed, worry seed, and stockpile for support options. 100 and 90 aren't too shabby for attacking stats.

But in NU, there are Wormadam (all forms) and hordes of bugs to take it out, so it wouldn't be cheap.

 

[Cynthia]

Butterfree is NU due to subpar offensive and defnseive capabilities. And it's slow.

Carnivine was also NU on our original list, but somehow got lost in the shuffle. I agree with the fact that it is depressingly medicore, simialr to Glalie.

And as for the question if we are trying to balance NU, the answer is not really. Mostly the process is moving down UU Pokes that aren't very good, but do consider the new metagame they will be in. For instance, Fearow's Attack and Speed are very high, but it is walled by Magcargo who is in NU. And Age of Kings and i both agreed that Magcargo is not really a top or middle tier UU.

 

[Bologo]

Butterfree is NU due to subpar offensive and defnseive capabilities. And it's slow.

Who cares about its defensive capabilities and stuff? NU has always been based on usage, so have you seen Butterfree a lot, or haven't you in UU? There honestly shouldn't be any discussions about how powerful one of the UU/NU pokemon are, just how much they're used, because NU has always been a faux tier, and I don't see why it wouldn't be today.

 

[Age of Kings]

Okay, let me get a straight answer: Are we trying to create a balanced NU metagame?

The original post made it sound like NU was a "faux" tier, but some of the arguments you've used are "Torkoal would be useful in NU" and "Cacturne overpowers NU".

Yes. Reading down, you will see my statement in the OP that NU is pretty decentralized. However, I may have made that statement prematurely and in error as some issues have already cropped up, namely Stealth Rock. While NU was accepted as a real tier with its own metagame distinct from UU in ADV, the introduction of several things may not hold true for D/P. "Unviable for UU"? I think it only plays into my point more. It means that these Pokemon who have absolutely no chance to play in UU can shine against each other in the controlled environment that is NU. What remains in UU has the chance to compete in UU, not almost zero like what we put in NU.

Now, balanced may mean different things. Here, I mean balanced as in there is no situations in NU like "x can ruin entire teams, and every single team must have a definite counter to x or else they will fail". Allowing Torkoal into NU means that Stealth Rock could be doing such a thing, throwing something in just due to one thing that can potentially ruin everything. Keeping Cacturne out of NU means that it has the potential to sweep teams and overcentralize NU so that every team should have Wormadam-S or Swalot. While NU is very versatile, some of the Pokemon that can best counter certain things can only be found up, and therefore, what can't be countered as easily in NU as in other tiers must be banned.

Even so, this is extremely premature when nothing is really set in concrete yet, like my earlier statement, and I acknowledge this. So I'm also open if you find large fault with what I said. That's why everything has to be discussed because we're making a lot out of pure scratch. Remember how the RSE to DP shift changed the regular tiers; previous knowledge of NU and what was done in the past means almost nothing now, and we need as much input as possible.

 

[chaos]

because NU has always been a faux tier, and I don't see why it wouldn't be today.

If you don't know anything about the history of the tiering system, please don't post about it.

I've been talking with X-Act, and what will most likely happen is that we will run the same algorithm for deciding OU Pokemon on the UU ladder.

 

[Kagster123]

I agree Luxray should also be UU. I'm sure it's pretty common enough anyway.

 

[20eyes]

I feel that Sudowoodo should be bumped up to UU. Fantastic defense and massive attack makes it a solid physical wall. Its rock head ability lets it fire off powerful double edges at will, sucker punch can take care of it's low speed. Can sweep with rock polish, not to mention the potential SpD boost from sandstorm.

 

[Bourbon]

Definite UUs
*snip*

BL is guys who are sitting on the fence between UU and NU, correct?

Whoa there. I would definately not put Crawdaunt, Wailord or Victreebell into NU. Do you know what they would do down there? UU pokemon have a hard enough time switching into CB Crawdaunt, I'm pretty sure everything in NU would get OHKOed. A potential 558 Attack stat plus three nice 120 power moves is nothing to sneer at.

Wailord is surprisingly bulky and could use a Curse set, boosting it's offense and defense to ridiculous levels and then spamming Return and Waterfall. I'm pretty sure there isn't any strong Electrics that could afford to switch-in and scare it off, without getting killed by STAB Waterfall first. Also Scarf Spout FTW.

Victreebell may be a suckier Vileplume, but with Sleep Power and Sunny Day, it's a fairly formidable special sweeper. STAB Solarbeam is a 180 base power move, it does massive damage. It has very nice special attack as well.

So anyways, while these pokemon don't get much usage (no one uses Crawdaunt except me XD ) they're still much too powerful to get booted down... Crawdaunt isn't outclassed by anything in UU, it's pretty unique (Sharpedo is too frail!) and Wailord can find a niche too. Victreebell is a more sweepy Vileplume. These pokes are not NU material.

 

[Cynthia]

Wailord is already in UU.

Crawdaunt certainly has plenty of offensive potential, but it's pretty slow. I'm close to moving it and Kingler up due to SD + high BP moves but maybe a few more voices vouching for them would help.

Victreebel seems decent on paper, but to be perfectly honest I haven't seen a single one in any UU battles. I feel odd placing something I've never seen.

 

[Bourbon]

I've seen a few Vbells... mostly on Wifi or my little brother using it though : /


Crawdaunt most definately should not be compared to any other Water Types, even Kingler or Sharpedo. Don't look at it as a Water/Dark, look at it as Dark/Water. Crunch is your main STAB, and Waterfall and Superpower are there for coverage.

He's terribly hard to use, but if you can get some nice prediction going on, it rips stuff up. Ask some of the UU players around here, such as ODDish... Crawdaunt causes some major problems whenever he gets in. The only counter for it is prediction... he can OHKO or 2HKO every pokemon in UU.

Victreebell is indeed very hard to place, because it is overshadowed by Vileplume all the time. It does get Leaf Storm, which is nice, and it gets all the typical grass status attacks. On the chlorophyll sweeper, you need almost no speed EVs to hit 362 (you only need 20 EVs) so you can throw it all in HP and stuff. With Life Orb equipped, you get a nasty 426 special attack. Add in the awesome Solarbeam and you're hitting about as hard as Timid Life Orb Porygon-z Tri Attack

 

[Fabbles]

Looking at chaos' post, it seems that UU and NU would be decided by usage. While I this is fine for UU, NU would get shaken up quite a bit by it. Even though Dodrio and Fearow are quite bad in UU play, in NU the only things they wouldn't hit for STAB neutral or super effective would be Magcargo and Mawile. Now, the issue would be whether they would be UU because they are too powerful for NU, or they are NU because they are entirely outclassed in UU.

If NU will be indeed be based on usage, then I can not possibly think how it will ever be a balanced tier.

Pokemon on the BL list that I would support for UU would be:

Bannete - Excellent attack with a great cast of supporting moves
Clamperl - Can be devastating under Trick Room and such
Cloyster - Decent spiker with access to Explosion and priority
Crawdaunt - agreeing with Skiddle here
Dodrio - read above
Fearow - read above
Golemn - Ground/Rock Stab along with Explosion? Yes please.
Granbull - Good enough movepool for either CB or supporter
Jumpluff - Faster than almost everything in UU/NU, allowing Encore to work excellently
Linoone - BD is still pretty popular and useful.
Octillery Very good movepool to work with decent Special Attack.
Pikachu - Pretty much Plusle on steroids.
Rapidash - CB Flare Blitz and Megahorn / Double Status
Skuntank - Can't say much, but I've seen others use him well enough.
Victreebel - Saw a few sweeps with this thanks to the still very viable Sunny Day set.

 

[Cynthia]

Bannete does have good attack and supporting movepool. However, it also has bad defenses, low speed, and poor type coverage (Return/Shadow Sneak?)

Clamperl can be devasttating, but it's slow and requires external setup. I'd like to hear more debate on this one.

Cloyster ssems to be a point of debate. i won't touch it for now, but 180 base def seems like a lot.

Crawdaunt- Fine, skiddle's love for Crawdaunt won me over :)

Dodrio is pretty solid and at least gets Reversal, which os an advnatage over Swellow and defeinitely Fearow. Fearow is obviously outclassed but is it too powerful? I think it can go into NU for now.

Golem and Granbull are pretty solid members of any team, perhaps too much for NU. I won't move them just yet though.

Linoone can probably sweep NU with a BD boost, but I'm wondering if Mawile/Magcargo could stop it. Also it has a lack of swicth ins.

Octillery's movepool is great, but it lacks speed and defenses. I'm moving towards UU with this one.

Pikachu's offenses/speed are probably too high. It can probably OHKo everything, though it can't really switch in.

Rapidash is probably too powerful as well. Hypnosis+ high peed+ Decent attack = trouble. Magcargo walls it, but it would just be too much I fear.

I personally love Skuntank and think it should stay UU, but ki was waiting for any strong opposition.

I suppose Victreebel can go to UU, that's what the consensus seems to be.

 

[Droideka88]

Also, I think you need a new name for the "borderline" Pokemon, because it can cause confusion as seen above. Rename it something along the lines of "Debatable".

RU- Rarely used. (fairly used, somewhat weak)

Since it's unlikely the term UU will change to more a respectful tier name like SU (Sometime used), I think the borderline for UU and NU could be called RU because these Pokemon are definitely not as good as the main UU. But these RUs have enough necessary force to overthrow NUs Pokemon.


I think Sableye has the potential to be Borderline UU or in my definition RU because not only could it be used as a decent and desperate sweeper, Sableye, along with Smeargle, is the only Pokemon to know four deadly move combos: Will-o-wisp/Toxic, Protect, Detect, Mean Look/Confuse Ray. If someone actually manages to trap a NU Pokemon, and if Sableye is built primary for defense, then you could literally have a potent foe.

The only flaw, which dissapointed me yet seemed fair, was that you can't continously use Protect, then Detect, then Protect, then Detect, etc. I'm assuming that both Detect and Protect are directly chained so that the chances of protecting the Pokemon decreases even if you don't use Protect/Detect for the first and second sets.

I've actually tested this type of Sableye (EV trained) on WIFI and it has the potential to win some of my battles (it was mostly doubles but I'm confident it would do well in a Single Battle too if I did UU/NU settings)

 

[Cynthia]

No you cannot chain Protect/Detect.

I think I'll just keep it as Borderline. If people can't tell that list from the actual BL list then they really shouldn't be posting here.

I've found Sableye rather sad in my UU experiences. Goiod movepool, but low stats across the board.

 

[chaos]

Uh, I really doubt there will be a ban tier between UU and NU.

 

[X-Act]

NU, in my opinion, is not that difficult to formulate. BL is much more difficult.

Assuming BL to be definite, then UU can be defined in a similar way as OU is, with the remaining Pokemon being NU. There _might_ be some banlist between NU and UU, in which case it can also be defined.

 

[boltscore]

Walrein - a very bulky pokemon, NU pokes will have a hard time with him while he hits them with decent damage.

I was playing a very weird opponent in ubers who was using a hail team; my Groudon could barely do crap to it with STAB EQs.

The whole "usage" thing can make it tricky. I don't think there are many Clamperls running around, and I don't think it's really that great anyway.

If you don't look at the usage thing, then I like looking at Carnivine. There was one war story I read when I was bored where the writer used a Carnivine, SDed twice (on a Shaymin), and then...well here's a quote:

I'd better try to kill stuff with my stab 120 base power move.

Sound familiar?

Sure, that move has less accuracy than Outrage, but I still think it's funny.

And for Clamperl...In NU, Beautifly's Specs Bug Buzz OHKOs it every time.

 

[Phuquoph]

1. Froslass (4800 usages)
2. Shuckle (3412 usages)
3. Drapion (3009 usages)
4. Clefable (2965 usages)
5. Cradily (2929 usages)
6. Hitmontop (2904 usages)
7. Absol (2884 usages)
8. Steelix (2828 usages)
9. Claydol (2817 usages)
10. Blastoise (2670 usages)
11. Kabutops (2538 usages)
12. Lanturn (2483 usages)
13. Cloyster (2418 usages)
14. Lapras (2380 usages)
15. Swellow (2344 usages)
16. Walrein (2182 usages)
17. Toxicroak (2074 usages)
18. Nidoqueen (2004 usages)
19. Jumpluff (1996 usages)
20. Persian (1797 usages)
21. Nidoking (1765 usages)
22. Electrode (1747 usages)
23. Ninetales (1739 usages)
24. Poliwrath (1719 usages)
25. Rotom (1601 usages)
26. Cacturne (1593 usages)
27. Glaceon (1593 usages)
28. Hitmonchan (1512 usages)
29. Drifblim (1440 usages)
30. Mr. Mime (1360 usages)
31. Leafeon (1314 usages)
32. Gastrodon (1200 usages)
33. Pikachu (1110 usages)
34. Banette (1005 usages)
35. Venomoth (929 usages)
36. Qwilfish (922 usages)
37. Meganium (912 usages)
38. Lopunny (902 usages)
39. Mantine (891 usages)
40. Manectric (881 usages)
41. Sandslash (880 usages)
42. Relicanth (854 usages)
43. Primeape (810 usages)
44. Hitmonlee (802 usages)
45. Scyther (787 usages)
46. Torkoal (782 usages)
47. Jynx (778 usages)
48. Rapidash (769 usages)
49. Linoone (753 usages)
50. Muk (740 usages)
51. Armaldo (729 usages)
52. Raichu (726 usages)
53. Butterfree (712 usages)
54. Hypno (676 usages)
55. Omastar (660 usages)
56. Skuntank (642 usages)
57. Sharpedo (635 usages)
58. Aggron (632 usages)
59. Grumpig (611 usages)
60. Camerupt (605 usages)
61. Raticate (600 usages)
62. Ampharos (590 usages)
63. Quagsire (585 usages)
64. Probopass (584 usages)
65. Altaria (582 usages)
66. Kingler (566 usages)
67. Kangaskhan (543 usages)
68. Gorebyss (537 usages)
69. Dodrio (501 usages)
70. Bastiodon (420 usages)
71. Bibarel (414 usages)
72. Minun (414 usages)
73. Noctowl (410 usages)
74. Politoed (408 usages)
75. Shiftry (407 usages)
76. Golduck (379 usages)
77. Luxray (363 usages)
78. Granbull (363 usages)
79. Vileplume (356 usages)
80. Pidgeot (325 usages)
81. Phione (321 usages)
82. Dewgong (315 usages)
83. Octillery (313 usages)
84. Mawile (309 usages)
85. Chimecho (306 usages)
86. Solrock (304 usages)
87. Golem (300 usages)
88. Kecleon (283 usages)
89. Flareon (277 usages)
90. Purugly (270 usages)
91. Stantler (253 usages)
92. Wailord (250 usages)
93. Sudowoodo (232 usages)
94. Clamperl (232 usages)
95. Plusle (224 usages)
96. Masquerain (213 usages)
97. Dunsparce (209 usages)
98. Xatu (208 usages)
99. Ditto (197 usages)
100. Mightyena (190 usages)
101. Ledian (188 usages)
102. Swalot (187 usages)
103. Furret (184 usages)
104. Vespiquen (174 usages)
105. Glalie (173 usages)
106. Lumineon (167 usages)
107. Victreebel (166 usages)
108. Exploud (162 usages)
109. Girafarig (162 usages)
110. Ariados (158 usages)
111. Sableye (153 usages)
112. Crawdaunt (151 usages)
113. Wigglytuff (140 usages)
114. Lunatone (132 usages)
115. Carnivine (131 usages)
116. Arbok (123 usages)
117. Trapinch (120 usages)
118. Parasect (118 usages)
119. Seaking (114 usages)
120. Delibird (114 usages)
121. Seviper (110 usages)
122. Delcatty (110 usages)
123. Magcargo (106 usages)
124. Pachirisu (104 usages)
125. Chatot (101 usages)
126. Wormadam-s (94 usages)
127. Beedrill (91 usages)
128. Huntail (84 usages)
129. Vigoroth (82 usages)
130. Spinda (81 usages)
131. Sunflora (80 usages)
132. Pelipper (79 usages)
133. Bellossom (78 usages)
134. Mothim (72 usages)
135. Farfetch'd (70 usages)
136. Tropius (68 usages)
137. Whiscash (64 usages)
138. Castform (53 usages)
139. Wormadam (45 usages)
140. Corsola (42 usages)
141. Luvdisc (38 usages)
142. Unown (36 usages)
143. Fearow (34 usages)
144. Cherrim (28 usages)
145. Volbeat (27 usages)
146. Illumise (23 usages)
147. Kricketune (19 usages)
148. Dustox (19 usages)
149. Beautifly (16 usages)
150. Wormadam-g (12 usages)

Until we have an UU ladder up and running, these are the best stats we have.

 

[ODDish]

My thoughts regarding the list ...

Definite UUs

Crawdaunt - It's "BL" for me. Far too powerful for NU, and yet it sees no where near enough use to guarantee its UU status.

Mantine/Noctowl - "BL" in that their useage seems variable, and neither would be too overwhelming to an NU metagame.

Politoed, Shiftry, Victreebel - Again "BL" in that thier usage is questionable, however unlike any of the above not immediately obvious on whether they would be overpowered. I'm inclined to believe not ... but without testing.

Quagsire - "BL/NU". Agree with umbarsc here. It's usage is declining its role having been usurped by others. Offensively unimpressive, certainly wouldn't unbalance NU.


NUs

Agree completely.

Borderlines

To move to UU: Dodrio, Gorebyss, Linoone, Mr. Mime, Torkoal

To move to NU: Banette, Belossom, Chatot, Dewgong, Dunsparce, Flareon, Golem, Granbull, Lunatone, Pelipper, Solrock,

Uncertain (lack of expereince with these pokemon) remain "BL": Birabel, Cloyster, Huntail, Kingler, Lopunny, Octillery, Purugly, Qwilfish, Raticate, Stantler, Vespiquen.

I won't elaborate why at this stage, but will give more detailed reasons if asked ...

I also support the banning of Stealth Rock in the NU environment.

 

[umbarsc]

Uh, I really doubt there will be a ban tier between UU and NU.

If we're trying to create a balanced NU metagame, and we're also basing this on usage, it would make sense. Obviously if the only criteria is "Pokemon used less than X%", there are going to be some dominating forces, one that could need banishing from NU.