imo a swords dance breloom can be an effective late game sweeper. I just dont feel thats its that effective of a lead, and could be used elsewhere
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
How to make a bulky dragon better: OU team rate
- Thread starter KurashiDragon
- Start date
I know what you mean. However Brellom as a starter allows me to set up the rest of my team. It really all depends on the second turn. Besides bringing down the score to 5-6 becaue the pokemon automatically falls asleep is not something to sneeze at. Breloom is better to my team as a lead than a Dancer.
What a Team!
Whew! This kind of discussion is what forums is all about! I like it! Anyway, I just saw the word 'dragon' in the title of the thread and decided to drop in--I love dragons. Anyway, I've read most of the posts, and have decided not to call on every one of them, I don't want to overkill anything either, so I'll just throw in my two-cents and not aim at anything. : ) Okay, here goes:
Breloom: Obviously, with spore/scarf on a lead, you're gonna use this guy for hit-and-run. You say mach punch is there for a good STAB move, but, because he's scarfed with a hit-and-run tactic, you might as well use Superpower--(with STAB) base 150 vs. (with STAB) base 60 Mach Punch. Then, after the massive hit, he runs and nobody but your opponent is any worse for the wear. Seed Bomb for STAB, and a good move anyway; Stone Edge for coverage; Spore because of lead. I only argue for Superpower here.
Dragonite: Oh, buddy! I love this pokemon! He's been outclassed a little, but still thrives (sorry, like I said, I love dragons)! Anyway, we are apparently working without the item clause here because you Nite gets Leftovers over Life Orb, along with the other three. Yeah, because of Roost, I would say Life Orb. Yes, I saw the Damage Calculations, but, because of his slow speed and no scarf, he will get KO'd the first move of the next turn, which will not be by him. Everybody that's posted here makes it sound like you're trying to wall with him, but the deal with the Nite is that he's just a fat sweeper--no wall, no stall--fat sweeper. Uh, okay, I can understand the Dragon Claw over Outrage--a lot of people do that--but the EQ over Superpower seems a little been to unique. EQ, you say, is for exploding steels. Both EQ and Superpower are SE on them. But, you go against a Zong with Explosion and use EQ. Pray he's heatproof, cause you ain't hittin' 'em. However, Superpower for neutral damage, and you can edge in a roost, switch, and set the field level again with Zong gone. So, maybe I just like Superpower too much, but I would go with it here, also.
Blissey: Everybody's first love in tanks and walls. This is a beautiful set that gives it the chance to take some physical hits, too. With BoltBeam coverage and wondrous supporting moves, this is a "real beaut." Five stars here, sir/ma'am.
(*Heaving*: "Half...way...through...")
Jirachi: One of three Psychic/Steels, and, yes, an astounding partner for the Bright Nite. Not that there aren't others, but w/e. The Jirachi you picked would probably have been the same one I would have, because of Wish/Turn and two status moves. I like your choice.
Gengar: An old friend to all, from way back in the days of Kanto. The 'bio' says you're tricking a scarf on opponents, which I would be wary of. In the current metagame, there are (as proven in you team) tons of Choice-item users, so Trick may get you locked in against a really bad move, using only your cute little trading move. Just sayin', for this one. Shadow Ball for STAB, Thunderbolt for coverage, yes, nice, Explosion for...? When things get hairy is probably gonna be in the scenario I posed, and I don't see a Gengar barely surviving someone else's hit to Explode anyway. I would reconsider the two slots and item for Trick and Explosion. Just the way I see it, but, including the item, I think you're wasting three (otherwise) perfectly usable opportunities.
(*Gasping*: "One............left!")
Vaporeon: Personally, not a big fan. I see where you're going with this set, and honestly, I think it falls a little short because of the pokemon. Wish/Protect works by the skin of your teeth, but I applaud Surf and Ice Beam, though basic they may be. I just don't think Vaporeon has much potential. Anytime I'm up against one, I can usually rip right through it. In it's place, I might suggest a Gliscor to follow Jirachi. I don't know, something with decent defensive capabilities, and a decent attaking potential. Just not a fan.
Flow: Like a grand canvas, I see the flow of your team unfolding before me, and it is simply beautiful. Breloom, Gengar, Blissey, Dragonite, Jirachi, Vaporeon. Astounding. The only hole I could find in it would be a more physical Ghost. But, if it's fast enough, Gengar could take him out, too.
Overall, very nice.
(*Wheezing*: "Finished!")
Hope I didn't hurt your feelings, I tried not to be harsh, I just know that some people are over-sensitive. Not said accusingly.
Whew! This kind of discussion is what forums is all about! I like it! Anyway, I just saw the word 'dragon' in the title of the thread and decided to drop in--I love dragons. Anyway, I've read most of the posts, and have decided not to call on every one of them, I don't want to overkill anything either, so I'll just throw in my two-cents and not aim at anything. : ) Okay, here goes:
Breloom: Obviously, with spore/scarf on a lead, you're gonna use this guy for hit-and-run. You say mach punch is there for a good STAB move, but, because he's scarfed with a hit-and-run tactic, you might as well use Superpower--(with STAB) base 150 vs. (with STAB) base 60 Mach Punch. Then, after the massive hit, he runs and nobody but your opponent is any worse for the wear. Seed Bomb for STAB, and a good move anyway; Stone Edge for coverage; Spore because of lead. I only argue for Superpower here.
Dragonite: Oh, buddy! I love this pokemon! He's been outclassed a little, but still thrives (sorry, like I said, I love dragons)! Anyway, we are apparently working without the item clause here because you Nite gets Leftovers over Life Orb, along with the other three. Yeah, because of Roost, I would say Life Orb. Yes, I saw the Damage Calculations, but, because of his slow speed and no scarf, he will get KO'd the first move of the next turn, which will not be by him. Everybody that's posted here makes it sound like you're trying to wall with him, but the deal with the Nite is that he's just a fat sweeper--no wall, no stall--fat sweeper. Uh, okay, I can understand the Dragon Claw over Outrage--a lot of people do that--but the EQ over Superpower seems a little been to unique. EQ, you say, is for exploding steels. Both EQ and Superpower are SE on them. But, you go against a Zong with Explosion and use EQ. Pray he's heatproof, cause you ain't hittin' 'em. However, Superpower for neutral damage, and you can edge in a roost, switch, and set the field level again with Zong gone. So, maybe I just like Superpower too much, but I would go with it here, also.
Blissey: Everybody's first love in tanks and walls. This is a beautiful set that gives it the chance to take some physical hits, too. With BoltBeam coverage and wondrous supporting moves, this is a "real beaut." Five stars here, sir/ma'am.
(*Heaving*: "Half...way...through...")
Jirachi: One of three Psychic/Steels, and, yes, an astounding partner for the Bright Nite. Not that there aren't others, but w/e. The Jirachi you picked would probably have been the same one I would have, because of Wish/Turn and two status moves. I like your choice.
Gengar: An old friend to all, from way back in the days of Kanto. The 'bio' says you're tricking a scarf on opponents, which I would be wary of. In the current metagame, there are (as proven in you team) tons of Choice-item users, so Trick may get you locked in against a really bad move, using only your cute little trading move. Just sayin', for this one. Shadow Ball for STAB, Thunderbolt for coverage, yes, nice, Explosion for...? When things get hairy is probably gonna be in the scenario I posed, and I don't see a Gengar barely surviving someone else's hit to Explode anyway. I would reconsider the two slots and item for Trick and Explosion. Just the way I see it, but, including the item, I think you're wasting three (otherwise) perfectly usable opportunities.
(*Gasping*: "One............left!")
Vaporeon: Personally, not a big fan. I see where you're going with this set, and honestly, I think it falls a little short because of the pokemon. Wish/Protect works by the skin of your teeth, but I applaud Surf and Ice Beam, though basic they may be. I just don't think Vaporeon has much potential. Anytime I'm up against one, I can usually rip right through it. In it's place, I might suggest a Gliscor to follow Jirachi. I don't know, something with decent defensive capabilities, and a decent attaking potential. Just not a fan.
Flow: Like a grand canvas, I see the flow of your team unfolding before me, and it is simply beautiful. Breloom, Gengar, Blissey, Dragonite, Jirachi, Vaporeon. Astounding. The only hole I could find in it would be a more physical Ghost. But, if it's fast enough, Gengar could take him out, too.
Overall, very nice.
(*Wheezing*: "Finished!")
Hope I didn't hurt your feelings, I tried not to be harsh, I just know that some people are over-sensitive. Not said accusingly.
well, its your team, so use whatever breloom you want
Quite the opposite really I like this post.
I can see where your going with the superpower thing and I started thinking on how if I use 2 DD I can get in a free superpower and only worry about the defense so I can see where your going with it. This is making me think the other way about superpower to. With more power and the potential to use it a second time I can already see it.
In the superpower department for Breloom mach punch does allow me to get that hit in against lucario. It's very easy for Lucario to set up against this team. Otherwise I would put it on.
LOL on gengar. Mabye I might switch out explosion for something. I could go for thunder bolt and try another boltbeam combo. It certainly would be interesting.
Vaporeon is one of the few pokemon I trust enough to get a job done. Pokemon like gliscor add an ice weakness. I already have 2 of them.
Not true, the bulk up set is very capable of sweeping teams. Infact, this team will have quite a bit of trouble with it. It will have no trouble getting off a bulk up or two and Vaporeon is the only thing that can do much to it and it can always be spored. With Stone Edge, Nite is taken down and blissey gets hit by Mach Punch. Gengar isn't capable of causing a OHKO due to all the EV investment into bulk and Jirachi can't touch it. Paralysis won't work due to the auto poison and wearing it out will be hard since it will be healing quite a bit. Using Flamethrower isn't an option since only a massive 370 SAtk mon can garantee the OHKO with an un-STABed Flamthrower. I think your better off fitting Fire Punch onto Jirachi as compared to body slam. It will also give you a better chance against Scizor who is also problamatic for this team. I would change Jirachi and Gengars move set. Jirachi should be a scarf with Iron Head-Fire Punch-U-turn-Trick/ Thunderpunch. Pretty basic set. It's better than gengar at this role due to better typing, and U-turn. You can run another punch in the last slot as I think it is much better off keeping the scarf. So thunderpunch or ice punch can work. Gengar can be a sub set.
Gengar@ Leftovers
Timid
4 HP/252 SAtk/ 252 Spe
-Thunderbolt/ HP Fire
-Shadowball
-Sub
-Focus Blast/ Focus Punch
So the first set is pure special which is what the EVS are for. Sub up an deal with what comes in. It can often scare off Scizors. If you prefer to beat him then go with a mixed set which can deal with its main counters. Steels lose to HP Fire while as Blissey is getting hit by Focus Punch. You could also try Explosion. An EV spread of 100 Atk/ 156 SAtk/ 252 Spe with a timid nature and expert belt will work. Gl
EDIT: Forgot that you have a bit of a Gyara weakness so I would suggest giving Vaporeon HP Elec to help out with Gyara. If you do that have Ice Punch in Jirachi's last slot if you opt not to use Trick.
Breloom's Mach Punch only scores neutral damage on Lucario, so you need to beef it up as much as possible, thus Superpower. Besides, who says Breloom is you only hope against the likes of Lucario? If you are as big a fan of Vaporeon as you say you are, pull off a Wish, Surf, Protect, repeat on Lucario and possibly end his reign of terror on your team.
And, btw, Gliscor was only my puny example. After thinking about it more, you might agree on a Swampert... maybe Gastrodon. That is, if you're bent on a water-type. It would be the only grass weakness on your team. Uh, maybe a Hippowdon w/Stockpile--my friend has one that can take 3 STAB'd surfs from a super-sweet special Kingdra. Say, maybe a Kingdra! One weakness, compared to a Dragonite. If you give it the right spread, Kingdra can take quite a few hits. I don't know, some decent wall. Again, though, it's just a personal block against the Watered-down Eevee.
And, btw, Gliscor was only my puny example. After thinking about it more, you might agree on a Swampert... maybe Gastrodon. That is, if you're bent on a water-type. It would be the only grass weakness on your team. Uh, maybe a Hippowdon w/Stockpile--my friend has one that can take 3 STAB'd surfs from a super-sweet special Kingdra. Say, maybe a Kingdra! One weakness, compared to a Dragonite. If you give it the right spread, Kingdra can take quite a few hits. I don't know, some decent wall. Again, though, it's just a personal block against the Watered-down Eevee.
^ Mach is SE against Luke. Vaporeon is OHKO by a +2 CC. He needs mach punch or else he is going to get swept by Luke. Besides, Luke can just repeatedly SD on a predicted Protect.
As for the other suggestions, I think Vapoeron is the teams best bet. Wish support is very useful here so I would suggest keeping it.
As for the other suggestions, I think Vapoeron is the teams best bet. Wish support is very useful here so I would suggest keeping it.
mc2094: Jirachi is one of two wish support, there's no changing that however mabye I might try out fire punch.
You'd be suprised how many have fallen for trick per battle.
Also I probly should've of made that post a little clearer. I meant that the moveset that I have wouldn't do much good late game.
clicker4721: Mach punch scores super effective hits on lucario because of its steel secondary typing.
Vaporeon has helped to much to take out of my team.
You'd be suprised how many have fallen for trick per battle.
Also I probly should've of made that post a little clearer. I meant that the moveset that I have wouldn't do much good late game.
clicker4721: Mach punch scores super effective hits on lucario because of its steel secondary typing.
Vaporeon has helped to much to take out of my team.
But wait, Lucario's Steel/Fighting, right? Isn't MP SE on Steel, NVE on Fighting?
Why would a team need 2 Wish passers? It isn't needed. If you fail to make that change you leave yourself weak to Lucario( Breloom is revenge killing at best), Scizor, and other steels due to a lack of Fire. The Brelooom I mentioned will have a very easy time with this team also. Gyarados is still capable of doing a number because you are again relying on revenge killing it while it can always switch out and continue to create holes in your team. You lack SR so Gyara, Zapdos, and Salamence can just contiuously cause havoc as you don't have a counter to these, just something that can switch-in once the said poke has gotten a KO.
clicker4721: No fighting hits fighting for nutreal damage.
mc2094: ....I suppose I can give this moveset a shot. Jirachi's current set has been reliable enough to get me through battles which is why I'm uncertain.
Jirachi
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Adamant
EV: 240 HP, 160 Atk, 107 Spd
Attacks: Iron Head, Fire Punch, U-Turn, Stealth Rock
By the way having two wish supports on this team has helps on numerous occasions.
mc2094: ....I suppose I can give this moveset a shot. Jirachi's current set has been reliable enough to get me through battles which is why I'm uncertain.
Jirachi
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Adamant
EV: 240 HP, 160 Atk, 107 Spd
Attacks: Iron Head, Fire Punch, U-Turn, Stealth Rock
By the way having two wish supports on this team has helps on numerous occasions.
My bad.
I didn't think fighting was neutral on itself.
Btw, I really don't think you should change Jirachi's. True, the one you have is a Wish passer, but it does it a lot differently than Vaporeon, with U-Turn, which may negate the threat, making it easier for the pokemon you switch to.
I didn't think fighting was neutral on itself.
Btw, I really don't think you should change Jirachi's. True, the one you have is a Wish passer, but it does it a lot differently than Vaporeon, with U-Turn, which may negate the threat, making it easier for the pokemon you switch to.
Even still fire punch has come in hand so if I don't like the set I may keep that. So far it's not showing much promise
I wouldn't give superpower to DDNite.
Setting up DD a few times and then superpower! now our attack is weakened, and since this Nite is physical variant, it will hurt its ability o sweep but will have to switch out or more dd will have to come about which is really not how it should work.
I did. I used superpower but it just wouldn't fit into my dragonite. So its back to Earthquake.
Oh, well...
That's cool, yo. The choice, after all, is yours.
That's cool, yo. The choice, after all, is yours.
@Kurashi: I agree with your choice :D
@Lord Liam: I like Mence and my mixmence EV is quite different with others. However, still he's too strong (personally I think he's broken) and reminds me of the days of Garchomp with SR weakness (which is huge but come on, who doesn't really have a Mence counter on their team? It seems too powerful to me). I would, however, say that Dragonite is outclassed by Mence in quite a lot of ways though (except for some exceptions like Bulky DD, support set, and Wall Breaker set). Heck, if the offensive dragonite set is used with less atk and more speed (with jolly to get lucario) and HP, it can also do well. Currently, I am running through all overused pokemons excet for very few pokemons that dragonite just shouldn't go in for in hopes of creating an offensive dragonite who is bulky enough to live through vaporeon's ice beam (strongest of bulky water) and without steel resistance to make him pure physical (put magnezone or heatran along with cresselia for his support) to late-game sweep. 280 speed, personally, should be enough to outrun adamant lucario and go in hand-to-hand 176speed neutral natured 100 basers (like zapdos and mence though there aren't as many mence going with that ev spread). I will see lol.
edit: this seems like a bad idea lol though with light screen it is viable but yeah it would need that support hmmm
@Lord Liam: I like Mence and my mixmence EV is quite different with others. However, still he's too strong (personally I think he's broken) and reminds me of the days of Garchomp with SR weakness (which is huge but come on, who doesn't really have a Mence counter on their team? It seems too powerful to me). I would, however, say that Dragonite is outclassed by Mence in quite a lot of ways though (except for some exceptions like Bulky DD, support set, and Wall Breaker set). Heck, if the offensive dragonite set is used with less atk and more speed (with jolly to get lucario) and HP, it can also do well. Currently, I am running through all overused pokemons excet for very few pokemons that dragonite just shouldn't go in for in hopes of creating an offensive dragonite who is bulky enough to live through vaporeon's ice beam (strongest of bulky water) and without steel resistance to make him pure physical (put magnezone or heatran along with cresselia for his support) to late-game sweep. 280 speed, personally, should be enough to outrun adamant lucario and go in hand-to-hand 176speed neutral natured 100 basers (like zapdos and mence though there aren't as many mence going with that ev spread). I will see lol.
edit: this seems like a bad idea lol though with light screen it is viable but yeah it would need that support hmmm
Like I said on the first page both salamence and dragonite have their strengths. Dragonites got the better bulky DD to Salamences sweeper DD and they both do a pretty good job at it. To say that one outclasses the other is like saying that peanut butter outclasses jelly. (I'm running in the middle of the night here so I can't think of anything better) Personally I think that they're both about even. It's just that Salamence has bigger jobs than dragonite. I'd acctually love to see a successful team with them both in it. I'd laugh about it.
Edit: Now I know the reason why I don't like stealth rock all that much for my pokemon. (Don't get me wrong I like stealth rock as a move.) Most of the pokemon I try and put stealth rock on are needed for the team in other ways. Say jirachi for instance. Ok I set up a stealth rock..... now what......... crap. I only have three moves to contend with and even though stealth rock is useful in some ways it doesn't help me very much in the long run. This team doesn't look for stealth rock support because most of the time I don't need stealth rock in order to kill of an opponent or scare it away. Back to the Jirachi example. "Oh crap my dragonites weakened and I've no way to bring in vaporeon without something dying. Oh hey here's this jirachi (Doesn't share the same weaknesses as vaporeon....in fact they have pretty good syenergy with each other.) I can use this wish instead and bring dragonite in for the kill." That's only one example of course.
Edit: Now I know the reason why I don't like stealth rock all that much for my pokemon. (Don't get me wrong I like stealth rock as a move.) Most of the pokemon I try and put stealth rock on are needed for the team in other ways. Say jirachi for instance. Ok I set up a stealth rock..... now what......... crap. I only have three moves to contend with and even though stealth rock is useful in some ways it doesn't help me very much in the long run. This team doesn't look for stealth rock support because most of the time I don't need stealth rock in order to kill of an opponent or scare it away. Back to the Jirachi example. "Oh crap my dragonites weakened and I've no way to bring in vaporeon without something dying. Oh hey here's this jirachi (Doesn't share the same weaknesses as vaporeon....in fact they have pretty good syenergy with each other.) I can use this wish instead and bring dragonite in for the kill." That's only one example of course.
SR check and Cresselia
Ryperior and Swampert are some other examples of taking down salamence.
+1 eq on rhyperior:103.77% - 122.10%
always outsped and ohkoed
+1 outrage on swampert:94.51% - 111.22%
not the best counter as pert will have taken some damage during its time as a lead.
now cress is a good counter, but it will have trouble switching in on anything thats not eq, as +1 outrage does62.16% - 73.20% on a 252/252 bold cresselia.
cress hits for 80.12% - 94.28% with ice beam, so salamence has already killed two pokemon before cresselia can switch in and ko for sure.
Cress is probobly the best mence counter-scarfgar with hp ice, but its not a good counter by far.
always outsped and ohkoed
+1 outrage on swampert:94.51% - 111.22%
not the best counter as pert will have taken some damage during its time as a lead.
now cress is a good counter, but it will have trouble switching in on anything thats not eq, as +1 outrage does62.16% - 73.20% on a 252/252 bold cresselia.
cress hits for 80.12% - 94.28% with ice beam, so salamence has already killed two pokemon before cresselia can switch in and ko for sure.
Cress is probobly the best mence counter-scarfgar with hp ice, but its not a good counter by far.
I think you made a mistake with Ryperior.
+1 Max atk Salamence Earthquake VS Ryperior with no investment in hp or def:
607 Atk vs 291 Def & 340 HP (100 Base Power): 225 - 265 (66.18% - 77.94%)
It can get in on the revenge kill with avalanche or Stone Edge.
Max atk Ryperior Stone Edge vs Min def min hp salamence
416 Atk vs 165 Def & 300 HP (100 Base Power): 542 - 638 (180.67% - 212.67%)
You forgot life orb. And what calculator did you use?