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Excadrill
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
- Start date
If Dory doesn't have a Balloon, then Ditto just steps all over him.
I.E.
Dory used Swords Dance!
Counter switched in.
Counter used Mach Punch!
The berry lowered the power of Mach Punch.
Dory used Earthquake/Rock Slide/Return!
KOs/does damage.
Switches to Scarf Ditto.
Ditto used Earthquake!
And if Dory is hit with something if it switches in, you could just skip straight to destroying it with Ditto.
I.E.
Dory used Swords Dance!
Counter switched in.
Counter used Mach Punch!
The berry lowered the power of Mach Punch.
Dory used Earthquake/Rock Slide/Return!
KOs/does damage.
Switches to Scarf Ditto.
Ditto used Earthquake!
And if Dory is hit with something if it switches in, you could just skip straight to destroying it with Ditto.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
yeah but you could post this in 90% of all sweepers threats as ditto checks everything that has a move to KO it self.
and actually the mole isnt fucked so badly Ditto has to use EQ to KO him as everything else wont KO as he resists all the other moves he usually carrys and EQ is easy to play around with switching in a Levitator/flying type in.
Other Sweepers got way more problems as their stab moves arent that easy to play around.
I've been using Doryuuzu a bit on several teams in PO and I have to say this really loudly:
DORYUUZU IS REALLY OVERHYPED.
Seriously, to call this thing the "game defining pokemon" is a joke. Its movepool is a face-full of fail and it is really, really fragile. Everyone seems to know that as well, as I've yet to see it on a single team.
Plus, to use it with any degree of effectiveness is to use either Sand Throw or Sand Power and frankly if you go with the former you can't get the OHKO's you need to stay alive with thing's pitiful-for-a-steel/ground-type-defenses, and if you go with the latter you'll get one KO before you're revenge-killed, and thats if you come in on something SLOW. With all the hype surround this guy, you'd think people thought it could use both its abilities at once or something.
And all of this is assuming you wanna run a sand team, and there is a good chance that sand is going to have some severe competition this gen.
DORYUUZU IS REALLY OVERHYPED.
Seriously, to call this thing the "game defining pokemon" is a joke. Its movepool is a face-full of fail and it is really, really fragile. Everyone seems to know that as well, as I've yet to see it on a single team.
Plus, to use it with any degree of effectiveness is to use either Sand Throw or Sand Power and frankly if you go with the former you can't get the OHKO's you need to stay alive with thing's pitiful-for-a-steel/ground-type-defenses, and if you go with the latter you'll get one KO before you're revenge-killed, and thats if you come in on something SLOW. With all the hype surround this guy, you'd think people thought it could use both its abilities at once or something.
And all of this is assuming you wanna run a sand team, and there is a good chance that sand is going to have some severe competition this gen.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
First 110/60/60 is by no means frail and Steel/ground is an excellent typing both defensively and offensively.
Offensivly It means a Stab EQ coming from a 135 base attack is really scary in-fact he gots the strongest EQ of all pokemon bar Groudon who was uber in gen 4.
Defensively it means that he is resistant to Bullet Punch and E-Speed wich in Gen 4 were by far the most common Priority Moves around. he is weak to the now common Mach Punch, but guess why they are common its mostly to be able to check him. He gots an immunity to T-Wave and Toxic and some very intresting resists that allows him to Set-Up on quite a few threats such as Scarf Shandor locked in Shadowball, Scarf Sazandora locked in Dragon Pulse, Scarf Chomp locked in Dragon Claw/Outrage, Nattorei that lack Power Whip (even if they got you can survive one and Ko him with a +2 EQ given he has taken some prior damage). Damage and the list continious
His ability should be Sand Throw because it makes it faster than everything even things like Scarf Starmie and the likes.
He got three sets that all got different counters/Checks if he got Chople Berry you can forget your Technician Breloom or Ropushin you thought that they could revenge him.
Baloon variants cant be counter by things like Hippowdon without Ice Fang, Gliscor etc.
And if he gots a Life Orb lots of things now risk being easily OHKOed even if he now dont gets a SD boost.
His move pool is Fail?
he gots all he wants bar Stone Edge as he receives very good coverage with a moveset of EQ,Rockslide,Return/X-Scissor.
And Sand is really the best weather atm as the sand streamers are 3 levels above Ninetales and Politoed, because they can effecively Lead are bulky and got a use outside of only inducing wheater.
Before they got their ability (or get in Politoeds case) they were NU for a reason and as far as i am concerned they weren't even used there.
Your Propably just using him wrong because you should use him as a late game sweeper he is not something you throw in Mid-Game and hope too KO something (you can do this and even to some success, but more then often you should hide him as long as possible), he should be brought out when his respective counters are down and from there on you can often just bring him in and rape the remains of the team. He is IMO the best Late Game cleaner that currently exists if you just play him to his strengths.
If you dont have seen him much you must likely play somewhere very low on the ladder as i see him on lots of teams.
Hate to nitpick but doesn't Rhyperior have base 140 attack, making it have the second strongest EQ?
BurningMan
fueled by beer
yeah sry i thought rhyperior had lower attack ( just looked at his stats again and damn this thing looks so good on paper, but saldy isnt worth it in practice :/ )
It may not be frail, but it's certainly not bulky either. Even though it resists Bullet Punch and Extremespeed, priority will still put a large dent in him every time. He's also weak to Aqua Jet, which means many rain teams can check him even in sand.
Yes, he has options. But that just means he can deal with one of his may weaknesses. If he doesn't run Balloon, he can be taken out by Eccentric Ditto, Hippowdon, Gliscor, etc. If he uses a weakness berry, he covers ONE type once. With a weakness to Fire, Water, Fighting and Ground, something can hit you, and hard.
Hes, he gets those moves and what else? Swords Dance? That's two usable sets. Claw Sharpen, Brick Break and Shadow Claw are there, but hardly worth mentioning. No priority. Nothing out of the ordinary. That means extremely predictable. And yes, it's strong, but it can be handled if you have the right tools.
Really? Tyranitar and Hippowdon can get to level 103? Gosh, nobody told me.
Both Ninetales and Politoed have very good tools as leads. Hypnosis, good STAB, Politoed has encore and can sponge special hits. The only thing he's missing is reliable recovery. So yes. They were NU for a reason, just as every pokemon has a tier for a reason. But before there were better options. Now, Toed and Tales can have their time in the sun (...or rain)
Dory is completely dependant on Sand. He is a huge threat, but to the same extent that Kingdra is in Rain. With this reliance on weather and some pretty abusable weaknesses, I do not believe he defines the generation by any stretch of the imagination.
Please stop posting.
Anyways, Doryuuzu is easily the best spinner in the game thanks to Mold Breaker. To the point where personally I consider Sand Throw a gimmick.
He can wreck up any spinblocker in the game with EQ, and it's helped by the Rotom forms not being spinblockers anymore.
Why would you ever run Mold Breaker in order to accomplish spinning? Spin blockers: Gengar, Sableye, Shedinja, Dusclops/Dusknoir, Drifblim, Mismagius, Spiritomb, Dusknoir, Froslass, Giratina, Desukan, Burungeru, Shandera, Goruugu. Out of these, Mold Breaker is only useful for Gengar, Shedinja (does it break through Wonder Guard?), Mismagius, and Giratina. All but Giratina are taking a ton from +2 Rock Slide anyway, and you can even run Shadow Claw. Yeah, Shadow Claw takes away from your other slots, but it's better to have that than not outspeed the entire metagame.
His bulk is similar to Flygon's, which is pretty dang good for such a fast and powerful sweeper. His Steel Typing also gives him a multitude of resists, meaning opportunities to come in and potentially set up. Unlike many typical frail sweepers, he can take strong neutral STAB attacks from defensive Pokemon and set up with health to spare. Also, Azumarill, Kabutops, and potentially Abagoora are virtually the only viable users of Aqua Jet, and a Rain Dance team is filled with Swift Swimmers who have no need for priority because of the auto speed boost they get. Again, Abagoora is pretty much the only one you'd see, and even then if it's a Rain Dance Shell Breaker it won't even need to carry Aqua Jet. Kabutops otoh, needs to choose between Aqua Jet and Low Kick. The other priority he is weak to, fighting, has helped the popularize the Mach Punchers Roopushin and Breloom to serve as checks to Doryuuzu. Thats an example of shaping the metagame right there.
Earthquake, Rock Slide, and Swords Dance is all he really needs to be a major threat. He has a multitude of options in the last slot, or even two more if one chooses to forgo SD; Return, X-Scissor, Brick Break, Rapid Spin, and Shadow Claw. Doryuuzu may be relatively predictable due to the effectiveness of it's typical set, but it is not a one-dimensional team member at all. Doryuuzu can act as an exceptional Sweeper, Revenge Killer, Rapid Spinner, and a Check to many threats, particularly with Balloon-even Garchomp for example. Doryuuzu also is, along with Starmie, the best offensive rapid spinner in the game.
The point is that even though their new abilities give Politoad and Ninetales a huge buff, Hippowdon and Tyranitar are still much, much better Pokemon, and they aren't reliant on having their weather going to be useful either. Sandstorm tends to be the most balanced weather, consisting of primarily Ground, Rock, and Steel types. Rain teams consist mainly of water types and can have their weaknesses exploited much easier while sun teams tend to lack focus from what I've seen of them (I haven't fought many sun teams, but they have never been a threat so far).
Politoad and Ninetales' primary purpose is to provide team support, while Hippowdon and Tyranitar just happen to provide it while also primarily fulfilling other, more individual roles (a variety of different roles in Tyranitars case) that contribute to the team.
I also agree to an extent with you're comparison of Kingdra and Doryuuzu as weather abusers. The main differences is Kingdra has more survivability while Doryuuzu has more power. But the important difference is that, so far, Sandstorm is still the dominant weather, and the most common weather, in part because it's auto-setters are such great Pokemon themselves, meaning Doryuuzu will almost always have the Sandstorm it wants. I'm not saying that Doryuuzu "defines the generation" at all. It's much too early for such statements. However, I do believe that he is easily the most dominant Pokemon in the game right now, and one of the absolute best endgame sweepers that exists, Dream World or not.
Doryuuzu is, for a "Generation-defining pokemon", quite underwhelming. Yes, it's clearly the best pokemon in the game. But it's nowhere near as dominant as Garchomp was in early DP, or Salamence in later DP, and probably not even as dominant as Celebi or Tyranitar in RSE.
As Sphyxius noted, its movepool is pretty terrible - Rock/Ground has nowhere near the same coverage as Rock/Dark, let alone Ground/Dragon with a fire move. In addition, having a ground weakness is agony for a physical sweeper, because the bulk of physical walls WILL have EQ. Finally, it's vulnerable to priority in a way Garchomp never was.
Fact is, the thing has plenty of hard counters, unlike Garchomp in Gen 4. Hippo is kind of a hard counter even to Balloon variants (but it has to run Fire Fang), Ditto is a pretty solid counter, most priority fighters (and what viable fighting type doesn't have access to priority), etc.
The thing, imo, that really makes it special is that its speed gives it the ability to check virtually ANY frail sweeper.
As Sphyxius noted, its movepool is pretty terrible - Rock/Ground has nowhere near the same coverage as Rock/Dark, let alone Ground/Dragon with a fire move. In addition, having a ground weakness is agony for a physical sweeper, because the bulk of physical walls WILL have EQ. Finally, it's vulnerable to priority in a way Garchomp never was.
Fact is, the thing has plenty of hard counters, unlike Garchomp in Gen 4. Hippo is kind of a hard counter even to Balloon variants (but it has to run Fire Fang), Ditto is a pretty solid counter, most priority fighters (and what viable fighting type doesn't have access to priority), etc.
The thing, imo, that really makes it special is that its speed gives it the ability to check virtually ANY frail sweeper.
I really think evryone's comparing doryuuzu to the wrong pokemon. Imo, it's closest parallel in Gen IV is not Garchomp but Scizor. Scizor used it's powerful priority bullet punch to be the best revenger in the game as well as a good clean-up poke, and also provided scouting with U-turn. Doryuuzu's speed is so high in sandstorm it might as well be priority (off a 0 speed pokemon), but rather than just a 90 BP steel type move it gets a 150 BP earth move for revenging, as well as a 75 bp rock move and another coverage move. It also retains it's ability to switch and still be faster (even if not choiced, as scizor was only faster when bping), making it very good at cleaning up weakened teams, and it could also set up swords dance, for less weakened teams. It also has the ability to provide team support with rapid spin, like scizor did with uturn.
Dory is overhyped as anything. I've only lost to 2 Dorys, both being used by skilled players, who removed my checks to it [Roopushin and Swampert].
As I've said to many things this gen, Protect + Status Orb + Guts Roopushin destroys Dory with Mach Punch, unless it's running Chople.
Swampert can easily take a +2 EQ, and then strike back with Waterfall/Surf/Boiling Water/Earthquake, or even just Roar it out.
Dory is by no means broken. I'm seeing it all over the place. And I've only lost to it twice.
As I've said to many things this gen, Protect + Status Orb + Guts Roopushin destroys Dory with Mach Punch, unless it's running Chople.
Swampert can easily take a +2 EQ, and then strike back with Waterfall/Surf/Boiling Water/Earthquake, or even just Roar it out.
Dory is by no means broken. I'm seeing it all over the place. And I've only lost to it twice.
he's not broken he's just a really good pokemon during sandstorm and if i'm right he's the fastest rapid spinner.
i decided under a sandstorm to run a CB set like this
doryuuzu
252 atk, 252 spe, 4 def
item: CB
sand throw
EQ
rock slide
x scizzor
rapid spin(?)
under the SS doruuzu becomes a super fast pokemon. so instead of wasting a turn to set up by using swords dance you can start the sweep quicker.
i decided under a sandstorm to run a CB set like this
doryuuzu
252 atk, 252 spe, 4 def
item: CB
sand throw
EQ
rock slide
x scizzor
rapid spin(?)
under the SS doruuzu becomes a super fast pokemon. so instead of wasting a turn to set up by using swords dance you can start the sweep quicker.
You got it right. Dory certainly isn't broken but it certainly isn't "overhyped" either.
Unlike Dory, Scizor has a bunch of viable hard counters, including a trapper, which kept it from spamming Bullet Punch as much as it wanted to. Zapdos, Rotom-A, and Heatran just to name a few.
Doryuuzu requires no prediction nor scouting whatsoever to beat what it's up against. It's just faster than everything, really strong, and can sweep teams. Scizor is too slow and Bullet Punch is just not good enough for a sweep; I don't recall ever once being swept or in danger of being swept by SD Scizor. My Heatran, Rotom-A, Zapdos, or (insert faster Steel type) would trump it every time.
Dory is perfectly capable of outlasting every check you try to throw at it and cleaning up, just because of the number of things it can threaten out and set up on, especially with a Balloon. I don't know if it's entirely broken, but I do know enough to say that statements like "it's nowhere near broken" completely miss the mark.
Doryuuzu requires no prediction nor scouting whatsoever to beat what it's up against. It's just faster than everything, really strong, and can sweep teams. Scizor is too slow and Bullet Punch is just not good enough for a sweep; I don't recall ever once being swept or in danger of being swept by SD Scizor. My Heatran, Rotom-A, Zapdos, or (insert faster Steel type) would trump it every time.
Dory is perfectly capable of outlasting every check you try to throw at it and cleaning up, just because of the number of things it can threaten out and set up on, especially with a Balloon. I don't know if it's entirely broken, but I do know enough to say that statements like "it's nowhere near broken" completely miss the mark.
I wouldn't call a choiced pokemon a "sweep," but this wouldn't make a bad revenge killer. for nature run jolly/adamant, and I wouldn't run rapid spin to save my life on this set, but that's just me. instead of x-scissor and rapid spin, you can opt to run brick break and shadow claw for unresisted coverage.
You must be ranked really low if you aren't facing teams with Mole because I just faced 10 Sandstorm teams in a row running Mole on the ladder. I have MP Roobu and other stuff to deal with it and it still gets me half the time. And that's without getting SD off, if it does get SD off then the game is over. Unless you want to make a team of 6 Pokemon that counter Mole (which would be a bad team) then it's going to wreck you from time to time.
I often find my matches coming down to Doryuuza vs Doryuuza. This is why I run Rock Tomb over Swords Dance. Rock Tomb pops their balloon, while guaranteeing I'm faster next turn. I really haven't been using Swords Dance all that much. I usually find it unnecessary, as late game the opponent's team is already weakened enough that I don't need that +2 Atk boost.
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
One of the nastiest things about Doryuuzu is the fact that it has a nearly unblockable Rapid Spin. Jolly Dory OHKOs max / max Bold Burunkeru after a Swords Dance assuming SR and one layer of Spikes. I like to set up hazards on my opponent's Spiker knowing that I can very easily spin the Spikes away later and potentially clean up my opponent's spike-weakened team with Dory or another of my sweepers.
I use the exact same strategy.
Often times I would find myself up against an opposing Nattorei who comes in on mine and is perfectly willing to spike alongside me. Now it's no problem at all since I swapped out Doryuuzu's Return/X-Scissor slot that got very little use for Rapid Spin. That way we simulteously set up hazard layers and then I switch to Doryuuzu to RS. It's also useful to scout their initial Doryuuzu switch-in while simultaneously eliminating hazards instead of blindly attacking or wasting a SD when they bring in something like Techniloom for example.
you said that but you sir seriously play doryuzuu better than anyone i have faced before. No one say dory is Overhyped anyway and in term of DP i think the most dominant pokemon later DP is Latias not Salamence(i myself is a hater of salamence especialy DD mence. I LOVE mixmence sorry for straying from topic) Dory is nice. he also easy to fit seeing his "partners" is all powerful poke that you might use without dory. Nattrei, Gyarados, Latias, Terra"epic"kion, etc
Hes just too awesome.
The fact that scarf toed started to get popular is clearly show how dory affect the metagame. Also unlike rain and sun sandstorm doesnt particularly weaken any particular pokemon so your team choice is totaly wider than sun and rain. I always hestitating to use Kurimugan in Ran for example(kurimugan trolling FTW) thats why Sand has an edge in term of
weather advantage.
Balloon Doryuuzu > LO Dory from experience. SD is easy enough to set, and the power loss isn't missed when you are cleaning up late game.