Little Cup Initial Banlist Discussion

[Heysup]

It seems people generally want one of these lists:

#1

Pokemon:

Scyther
Sneasel

Items:

None

#2

Pokemon:

Scyther
Sneasel

Items:

Berry Juice

#3

Pokemon:

Scyther
Sneasel
Yanma 
Tangela

Items:

None

#4

Pokemon:
 
Scyther
Sneasel
Yanma 
Tangela
 
Items:
 
Berry Juice

I have seen mostly valid arguments for these lists, most people tend to agree with one of these four anyway. If we can decide on which we are deciding between, then we can move forward.

I'm kind of awaiting valid arguments against Yanma and Tangela though, before we decide. Like, I literally have not seen one. If we can eliminate two of the lists just like that, it would be much more ideal (either way, but I really have only seen arguments for banning them as of now...)

 

[Darkamber8828]

gj Heysup

I can't see how Tangela isn't broken anymore, since they've got nothing new in the way of checks and counters, bar new users of Ice Shard. Snover still gets caught on the switch by HP Fire, Munchlax can't take repeated Solarbeams, etc. Sleep Powder beats stuff you can't OHKO, like...bulky Dragons and Munchlax. Also, Vulpix.

Yanma has Hypnosis, perfect coverage with HP Ground and its STAB except Aaken (or something), who becomes useless after a hit and SR. It sleeps Munchlax just like Tangela, and it has a high Special Attack to fire off STAB Air Slashes and Bug Buzzes, still. Stealth Rock didn't stop it from being broken before, and there aren't THAT many new priority users to be worried about.

Nothing much has changed for either, right?

 

[Venser]

#4

Pokemon:
 
Scyther
Sneasel
Yanma 
(Tangela?)


Items:
Pre-Evolution Stone
Berry Juice

This is the list I was basically rooting for. I haven't played with Tangela enough to warrant banning it immediately, but the other three I have. Pre-evolution stone seems like a really annoying way to make walls 1.5 times bulkier, and it's good on attackers to, and would end up defining the format.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

Tangela suffers a bit because of Sandstorm becoming very popular.

 

[Alan]

Pokemon:
 
Scyther
Sneasel
Yanma 
Tangela
Meditite


Items:

Berry Juice

I don't see Pre-Evolution Stone as broken, it just makes some more pokemon a bit more viable. Berry Juice is broken though cause it basically gives any mon an extra life.

I added Meditite to the list because it just hits too hard with LO and Pure Power.

 

[Articanus]

I think those four lists you provided are perfect, Heysup. They represent the majority of the community, because there are essentially two sides to two different debates.

Regardless if you are experienced or not, it is fairly obvious that Scyther and Sneasel are both too good for Little Cup. After that is where we see our first split; some people think that Yanma and Tangela should be tested in a metagame without the super-ubers just to see how they would work out. They are very potentially uber, but since they are not 100% uber(similar to the debate for Darkrai and Lugia in OU), people want to see them tested, only to be certain they are uber. The second group has convinced themselves, whether it be through experience or just a general understanding of LC and the pokemon-in-question, that these two pokemon in question are definitely uber.

Either way works, it is just another version of the test more vs test less debate that has been rehashed back and forth.

Berry Juice falls under the same category, but items have a much different effect on the metagame compared to a pokemon. Some people just feel different ways about banning an item compared to banning a pokemon, and we see a split in that as well.

tl;dr

For pokemon, people want to test more and some want to test less. Yanma and Tangela are not as obviously uber to some people as Scyther and Sneasel. Items are interpreted different from pokemon, and thus we see a split for that as well.

 

[amphouse]

I'd like to argue Yanma's case for being accepted tinto this metagame. I don't think it's uber. Aaken destroys Yanma, even after it's ability activates it can still kill Yanma with it's STAB 4x effective rock moves, and if you argue that SR hampers Aaken, then you have to accept that it strips Yanma of half of it's health. This means Yanma is easily picked off by ice shard, among others. Also, hypnosis isn't exacly a reliable move to stop counters, with that 60 acc.

 

[SupremeDirt]

[CENTER][LEFT] Pokemon:

Scyther
Sneasel

Items:

Berry Juice

[/LEFT]
[/CENTER]

There's really not much to be said about these two. Scyther was viable in UU last gen, which should say something about its raw power. Sneasel simply has too great a movepool combined with very, very good speed. I initially had Aaken on this list, then I remembered it had Faint-Hearted, which means it's definitely not Uber material, as what attack won't take it at least below 50%?

Berry Juice goes without saying. I could see an argument for allowing it but having item clause, but it's just too potent an option. As to the Evolution Stone, not broken in the slightest. In fact, it may quite possibly enable some semblance of stall in LC, though it is indeed far too early to tell.

 

[Dubulous]

I remain adamant that Berry Juice breaks the game. We've seen it before when we briefly tested Berry Juice in Gen IV; it created a game centralized around set-up sweeping (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I believe that it is certainly not a good thing) and a game in which there were literally only 15-20 viable Pokemon that you had to use if you wanted any shot of winning. It is not worth testing it in my opinion, and the test itself I can foresee being messy (why is the item broken and not just the best abusers? etc. etc.). The game is better without Berry Juice, why bother?

Additionally, I'm starting to lean towards having a small banlist at the outset. That means I'm favoring Vader's proposed list. The way I see it, we can and will test potential suspects as soon as we can, and that would be an ideal time to test borderline cases. We can all come to a consensus that Scyther and Sneasel have no place in the Little Cup metagame, but the fact that there is significant opposition at all to including Tangela and Yanma leads me to believe that they're at the very least worth a test.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

Pokemon
Scyther
Sneasel
Yanma

Items
Berry Juice

This is what I feel the initial list should look like (pretty much Vader's banlist #4 but removing Tangela).

Scyther: What other people have said. Scyther reaches an absurdly high 22 speed, which coupled with 20 attack, Swords Dance, and Technician moves such as STAB Aerial Ace, STAB Bug Bite (also helpful for stealing Oran Berries), and a boosted Quick Attack. Scyther is an ridiculously powerful, dealing at least 66.67% to an Impish max/max Munchlax, while a max attack Munchlax does 60.87-78.26% to min/min Scyther with Fire Punch. If Scyther gets one turn to set up, he can OHKO virtually everything in the metagame.

Sneasel: Also what other people have said. Sneasel is, coincidentally, one of the only (or maybe the only) pokemon that can revenge-kill Scyther, as Sneasel reaches 23 speed and can use priority Ice Shard. While Sneasel's 95 attack isn't as strong as Scyther's 105, 19 attack is still pretty threatening, especially when NOTHING outspeeds it. He also gets Swords Dance, which allows him to run a similar set to Scyther, replacing QA with IS and replacing his STABs to Sneasel's STABs.

Yanma: Hey look, another speedy pokemon. Yanma reaches 20 speed, enough to tie with the fastest valid pokemon in 5th generation; one Protect later, Yanma outspeeds all pokemon bar Choice Scarfed Scyther, Sneasel, Diglett, Elekid, and Voltorb. 17 Attack is good, especially with STAB Bug Buzz. Yanma also gets the buffed Giga Drain to heal itself if it gets tired sweeping.

Berry Juice: Last generation, Berry Juice was quickly banned. It heals a ridiculous 20 HP, allowing most pokemon to restore themselves to full health. It's the equivalent of having a "Max Potion Berry" in OU. This generation has given us a lot more defensive pokemon; take Nattorei's pre-evo as an example. 44/91/86 defenses are nothing to scoff at; with investment, Tesshiido reaches 24 HP, 17 Def., and 18 Sp.Def. With BJ activating at 6 HP, it would immediately heal Tesshiido to full health, leaving you to have to get through its sturdy defenses once more. With Berry Juice, you essentially have to fight the same pokemon twice.

I don't feel that Tangela should be banned right away as the only way it actually threatens the metagame is under Sun. With the advent of Sandstorm teams and pokemon such as Mogoyruu and Meguroko, I doubt Sun will thrive.

EDIT:

I could see an argument for allowing it but having item clause, but it's just too potent an option.

Nothing banned, but how about an item clause?

IMO Item Clause would take away from the feel of Little Cup. With a limit to the items, stall wouldn't be rational (only one Oran user and one BJ user if BJ were to be allowed), and Hyper Offense wouldn't be either (1 Life Orb, 1 Expert Belt, 1 Choice Scarf). Little Cup just doesn't have the variety of viable items OU does.

 

[amphouse]

Pokemon:

Scyther
Sneasel

Items:

Nothing banned, but how about an item clause?


I feel that the best way to combine our top 2 lists is an item clause. Just 1 pokemon with berry juice is not so bad, compared to everyone with berry juice. This also limits the use of Pre-evo stone. What do you think?

 

[Venser]

I agree with the people who think that item clause would make the metagame less fun (and after all, isn't that what our overall goal is? To create a fun, balanced metagame?).

I'm willing to give pre-evo stone a try, but I think item clause+bj would just make games less fun overall.

 

[Articanus]

Let's see what happens if Item Clause were to get used:

Lum Berry/ Focus Sash - starter
Oran Berry - Something random
Light Clay - Dual Screener
Berry Juice - stat upper
Choice Scarf - revenge killer
Life Orb - Sweeper
Band / Specs - "wall" breaker
Leftovers - munchlax

This would actually limit the viable amount of pokemon and teams compared to just banning Berry Juice, and I will not advocate item clause.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

Item Clause would also place unnecessary restrictions on thingslike Life Orb.

Since using Gen IV logic in Gen V is all the rage, this kind of thing at the start of Gen IV Lcase of Focus Sash, but it eventually settled down. I don't see why we can't test this stuff under the same way.

 

[Banryu]

Ack, I just noticed that Murkrow gets Mischeivous Heart as a DW ability. :O If those are being considered in this thread, then I may have to put an argument together for Murkrow's ban... >.>

Barring that, (for now assume it won't happen) I think Heysup and Articanus are right, it seems like we're basically ready to move on with the voting phase if we can just decide on the two ballot choices, as this thread is starting to repeat itself quite a bit... I put my pre-vote vote (?) toward the two ban lists that include Berry Juice, on the grounds that few people in here seem to want it unbanned; most ban lists that don't include it are explained by a desire to 'start with a clean slate', and don't much explain Berry Juice specifically any further than that. On the other side of the issue, a ton of people want it banned, and give excellent reasons for doing so. :0 The same, admittedly, is mostly true with Yanma and Tangela, but I think that the Pokemon being banned/not banned carry more weight than the items, therefore the two lists that include Berry Juice ought to be the ones we use for voting, IMO.

 

[Heysup]

I'd like to argue Yanma's case for being accepted tinto this metagame. I don't think it's uber. Aaken destroys Yanma, even after it's ability activates it can still kill Yanma with it's STAB 4x effective rock moves, and if you argue that SR hampers Aaken, then you have to accept that it strips Yanma of half of it's health. This means Yanma is easily picked off by ice shard, among others. Also, hypnosis isn't exacly a reliable move to stop counters, with that 60 acc.

What about the fact that Aaken gets outpaced and OHKOed by Yanma? I really hope you were just confusing the names Yanma and Aaken.

And Ice Shard as your argument simply does not stand. What Pokemon learn Ice Shard? Then ask, what Pokemon learns Ice Shard that can actually switch in (hint: none)? When that fails, ask: which Pokemon can even OHKO Yanma with Ice Shard?

I don't mean to sound snarky, but please don't make baseless claims like this, think about what you're saying.....

I don't feel that Tangela should be banned right away as the only way it actually threatens the metagame is under Sun. With the advent of Sandstorm teams and pokemon such as Mogoyruu and Meguroko, I doubt Sun will thrive.

Tangela OHKOes every Pokemon that utilizes Sandstorm. None of them can switch in. I kind of think you have the whole thing backwards. I put Tangela on my team to counter Sandstorm teams - it destroys them. It changes the weather, OHKOes switch-ins with SolarBeam (even 2 Turn SolarBeams from Hippopotas switching in OHKO most of the teams still).

When we vote on Yanma and Tangela, please remember that your argument can't just be speculation - it has to be based on some sort of concrete fact.

 

[yiran]

I still think that Pre Evolution Stone should be banned.
Stuff it on Munchlax and...

 

[Banryu]

I still think that Pre Evolution Stone should be banned.
Stuff it on Munchlax and...

...and Munchy has no source of recovery. :0

 

[yiran]

Wait Munchy doesn't learn Slack Off?
But still... Chansey can be used over Blissey for this reason in OU. In little Cup EVERY Pokemon can use it and screw everyone.

 

[Venser]

Well not so much, due to the fast-paced nature of Little Cup. If anything, it means that you might finally be able to have a more balanced metagame (balanced in terms of HO/"balanced" teams/stall) as opposed to DPPT's metagame that was geared a lot towards hyper-offense teams.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

I don't get why stall is "bad" for LC. I mean, I really think that it is a healthy playstyle, and Evo Stone gives it a chance.

P.S.: StTall gets wrecked by Boosting Zuruggu anyway

 

[Heysup]

The defense boost is cool - Oran Berry is still better on most Pokemon without recovery though.

 

[Loves_Eo]

The defense boost is cool - Oran Berry is still better on most Pokemon without recovery though.

True, but Hippo with evo stone...think of the possibilities. Hell, stick Hippo and Onix on the same team *shrug*

Although it would make things slightly more interesting for various pokemon, and potentially, potentially make stall slightly more viable.

Also, Tangela needs to be gone. I suspect I could use Tangela in fricking UU with evo stone, and in LC it means it get's something it doesn't even need, more bulk which means revenge killing just doesn't work anymore, and all revenge killers are OHKOd by it anyways.

I also think Murkrow needs a ban too. Great power and speed, and it's vialability just got boosted with MH + Evo stone. While SR takes the wind out of it's wings, it was pretty broken last gen and potentially even more so now.

 

[amphouse]

What about the fact that Aaken gets outpaced and OHKOed by Yanma? I really hope you were just confusing the names Yanma and Aaken.

And Ice Shard as your argument simply does not stand. What Pokemon learn Ice Shard? Then ask, what Pokemon learns Ice Shard that can actually switch in (hint: none)? When that fails, ask: which Pokemon can even OHKO Yanma with Ice Shard?

I don't mean to sound snarky, but please don't make baseless claims like this, think about what you're saying.....

Lol I confused the names. You know full well I didn't.
You never adressed stealth rock. Forget about ice shard, quick attack OHKO's Yanma after SR.

 

[Darkamber8828]

True, but Hippo with evo stone...think of the possibilities. Hell, stick Hippo and Onix on the same team *shrug*

Go, Mantyke/Chinchou/Horsea/Lotad/Buizel/Clamperl/Feebas! Use Agility/Shell Break/Rain Dance/Splash! Now use Surf/Hydro Pump/HP Water!

It's a OHKO!

@ above: if a pokemon with Quick Attack can't switch in, it can't counter, only revenge. Like with Salamence and Ice Shard, that doesn't work.

Also, 65/45/45 defenses are fairly good, around Machop-level. Machop takes less than 50% from most Quick Attacks.