np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[phoenixflame95]

I wasn't comparing them in the sense that they are equally as powerful. They were very different metagames. I was comparing the fact that they were both really good pokemon for their time and could easily bring up claims of "overcentralization". In Advance, people used HP Bug sets to beat the overcentralizing Celebi because there weren't many other things that could even 2hko it. This thread to me should be about trying to find ways like that to beat potential suspects like Manaphy, instead of just discussing why it should be banned. Lati@s, Choice Scarf users, Nattorei, Ludicolo, other weather changers, etc.

I would just like to say that if you think something is broken, start thinking of ways to beat it instead of just giving up and say "ban it!". You already got team previews so you know it's coming, use all of this to your advantage!

I really think we should have waited for at least our first tier list before thinking about suspect tests =\

Well, I don't think anyone's in any hurry to ban things, but more that people are bringing up arguments as to why they should be banned, testing the balance of the power they provide vs. what you can actually do against them. As you said, the Advance metagame was very different from today's metagame. You could argue about Celebi's overcentralization with HP Bug or what not, but I'd say that carrying the move was rare just for the fact that even still, few pokemon had the power to even 2HKO it... it was more centralized in the way that it was so hard to take down that you always had to be wary of it and able to deal with it. Whatever the case though, there <i>were</i> ways to deal with things in Advance. For Celebi's case, it was versatile, for me I'd say I was most wary of the most physically defensive of them with Leech Seed and Recover (Baton Pass variants were often more speedy, less defensive, and could be phazed/ hit harder). Since trying to kill it was a toss up, I remember PP stalling it out of moves (notably Leech Seed, and Psychic since it was often its only attack move), until it could be taken out. Yes, that did require support of possibly the entire team, switching a lot between them, and that would be centralizing, but it was still a way to deal with Celebi, since it's not like it was going steamroll over your team or anything. Things are a lot different now though...some pokemon not only don't have hard counters; some don't even have any truly safe switch-ins. There are way more powerful attacks/ boosting items + moves, entry hazards are more numerous now and much harder to rid of, and you could lose a pokemon instantly at any moment whereas in Advance it wasn't unlikely to keep all your team members alive for a long time. Not that anyone's trying to ban everything to replicate Advance or anything, but just like in DPP, we're just trying to work towards a stable, desirable, and fun metagame that most of us will enjoy, and maybe a few additional bans can be agreed on to aid in that.

I agree with you that we should be figuring out ways to beat things. The only problem is that in these topics, whenever someone mentions a way to beat a big threat, you always get a chain of jackasses that post after that saying "OH SO I'M FORCED TO CARRY [insert pokemon name] ON EVERY ONE OF MY TEAMS JUST TO DEAL WITH [insert threat]? OVERCENTRALIZATION! BAN NOW!" I'm serious. Even when you explicitly mention that people shouldn't do that, they're still going to do that. That literally happened all the time in Gen 4, and it's part of why I stopped caring about suspect tests halfway through.

People unfortunately don't understand that centralization doesn't equal uber, and a lot of the time it doesn't seem like they're ever going to get it. At least this is the way it's been with the OU tier. I just hope people aren't going to continuously cling to this idea of everything having a counter and "overcentralization".

Yeah, I think some people are just so frustrated with the power creep, having issues against certain pokemon, so they react instinctively in the way that you just described. Of course, some people don't even know what they're talking about from the basics of even what a counter is supposed to be, then time is wasted explaining that, and the cycle continues. Then you get people who have battled, but are new to join, and automatically feel the need to defend themselves, and say that they have a right to voice their opinion. More or less, we're trying to achieve this:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66515

 

[Kevin Garrett]

I would just like to say that if you think something is broken, start thinking of ways to beat it instead of just giving up and say "ban it!". You already got team previews so you know it's coming, use all of this to your advantage!

I'm speaking for myself by saying I already have. I'll tell you what the problem is: There are too many super powerful threats. There are only a handful of checks and counters for each of the threats and using them in conjunction to form a team doesn't always yield a successful result in terms of having a consistent team. The best thing I have been able to do is pick my poison and accept that I lose to one or two of the ridiculous threats while having consistency everywhere else.

And you wonder why people complain about getting a 1500 rating. It's because no one can achieve a consistency anywhere near what could be experienced in DPP.

 

[gvmgvm40]

I'll write a longer post later, but from my experience Darkrai and Shaymin-S need to go. I'm on the fence about Manaphy. The rest seem pretty balanced to me.

 

[Bologo]

I'm speaking for myself by saying I already have. I'll tell you what the problem is: There are too many super powerful threats. There are only a handful of checks and counters for each of the threats and using them in conjunction to form a team doesn't always yield a successful result in terms of having a consistent team. The best thing I have been able to do is pick my poison and accept that I lose to one or two of the ridiculous threats while having consistency everywhere else.

And you wonder why people complain about getting a 1500 rating. It's because no one can achieve a consistency anywhere near what could be experienced in DPP.

But this isn't necessarily the dropdowns' fault. It's impossible to get any consistency in this metagame because people are finding new sets all the time, and the fact that there are over 600 pokemon in the game now. It's not like ADV where one team could handle everything. That's why the concept of "countering" everything gets laughed at now, while in ADV, and somewhat in DP, it was still viable.

 

[happy ham]

I have been underwhelmed by Darkrai.. Yes, sleep is a lot more annoying now, but it's not gamebreaking, in that you don't have to drastically alter your team to the extent that the quality of play is impeded to counter it. just have a status absorber. Geez. I use protect flame orb roobushin, which is a pretty kickass darkrai counter. I think darkrai isn't that big of a deal.

I'm less convinced by Skymin and Manaphy's OU-ness, though..

I'm not gonna comment much on Skymin, but Manaphy in auto-rain is too much. Manaphy 1. presents a gigantic offense force that (while admittedly suffering from 2 moveslot syndrome) rapes a gigantic portion of the metagame. 2. FAILS TO DIE. Especially since the +3 tail glow boost minimizes the EVs that are necessary in SpA, manaphies are running more and more HP, which in conjunction with auto-rest makes it necessary to OHKO. Especially when it +3 Rain STAB surfs your ass if you make a wrong move.

 

[alamaster]

I think the reason people are wanting to get rid of these threats so quickly is because we've already played with them during the Beta server testing and KNOW how broken they are. Don't get me wrong, I completely support the way smogon is handling the situation. With the playtesting period being 2 weeks with multiple suspects allowed to be nominated it seems that we are going with the quick route to get rid of the overpowered pokemon. I have absolutely no problem with this since for myself I know that I am not rushing my decisions. I have had a couple months to think and reflect on what I feel is broken and what I feel is not. I'm sure many others can attest to this as well.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

But this isn't necessarily the dropdowns' fault. It's impossible to get any consistency in this metagame because people are getting finding new sets and the fact that there are over 600 pokemon in the game now. It's not like ADV where one team could handle everything. That's why the concept of "countering" everything gets laughed at now, while in ADV, and somewhat in DP, it was still viable.

It shouldn't be laughed at if we are working towards a goal of having a desirable metagame. I've had some enjoyable games against players not using the suspects discussed in this thread. There is no way we can achieve a desirable metagame if we stick with the status quo. I believe it will be somewhat viable to handle everything (as it was in DPP) once we've created a stable tier list.

 

[shrang]

I agree. Last time I checked the ladder, only one player had a rating above 1500. Too high?

Also, on the topic of ubers in OU, I think that Ho-oh and giratina could be discussed. Groudon could be possible too, now that we have droughtales in OU. 100 hp/90 spdef/90 spe makes it laughably vulnerable to grass.

oh, and you can forget about lugia in OU. It has multiscale, base 110 speed and roost. I would have said hell yeah to a test before, but with multiscale? It seems way too powerful on paper.

Oh, and If we're going to ban skymin, we need to discuss banning togekiss and jirachi too. You can bitch about their flinch hax really easily too.

With the possible exception of air slash, skymin is outclassed by jalorda IMO.

Are you kidding me?? Do you really want Ho-oh and Giratina tested?? Ho-oh pretty much 2HKOs everything in the game while having the bulk to take about 90% of hits directed at it. All it needs is Life Orb, Roost and two attacks. Giratina-A would be CroCune on steroids, pretty much nothing can OHKO this thing (Not even LO Rayquaza can Outrage it to death). He could either just sit there and cripple pretty much everyone of your Pokemon, or sit there and Calm Mind up to +6 and then sweep you while you can pretty much do nothing in return. Groudon's even more of a joke. RP Groudon by itself can wipe out an OU team, and when you give it stuff like Wobb support, he can even pull off stuff like RP/SD.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone's still using CM Manaphy and SubGlow Manaphy. I'm aware offensive +3 is just too good to resist, but (CM Manaphy) being able to set up on super-effective hits and then destroying is still pretty awesome in my book. SubGlow may seem unnecessary, but it doesn't need rain, and with 252 HP Subs, you can set up on Blissey easily while Sub also helps to ease prediction (Sub on a Skymin switch-in or something like that).

 

[Ulevo]

I'm beginning to question whether or not this thread should really be open for public discussion. I'm of course not going to point fingers, but browsing through the comments listed in this thread... To say the least, it's easy to distinguish between those who have been playing the ladder, speaking from experience as to what their opinions are on the status of certain suspects based on said experiences...and those who are just raising post count by giving theorymoned analysis on Pokemon x, when they really have no experience at all on how that Pokemon works in the current environment.

While this might not really seem to matter if the only relevant users will be those who achieve the privilege of voting by eclipsing a rank of 1500 (or whatever Philip decides as the cutoff), my concern is that the common consensus of specific OU threats will begin to build with enough empty posting or "complaining", and will influence or drive the community and voters towards making rash and unnecessary tier decisions.

i.e. If enough people complained about Doryuuzu, regardless if their complaints are legitimately founded, I'm sure a bias could manifest itself and possibly influence the voting process when the time comes. As jrrrrrrr pointed out, if the B&W community of today played the ADV generation, we'd probably see Skarmory, Blissey and Celebi on their way out, and I agree with him.

What we need right now for this tiering process is experienced battlers who are familiar with the ladder, not self-appointed Pokemon politicians with their "opinions".

 

[shrang]

i.e. If enough people complained about Doryuuzu, regardless if their complaints are legitimately founded, I'm sure a bias could manifest itself and possibly influence the voting process when the time comes. As jrrrrrrr pointed out, if the B&W community of today played the ADV generation, we'd probably see Skarmory, Blissey and Celebi on their way out, and I agree with him.

What we need right now for this tiering process is experienced battlers who are familiar with the ladder, not self-appointed Pokemon politicians with their "opinions".

That's what the whole ratings requirement is for. While there are people rambling in with pure theorymon and very little experience, keep in mind that they do not get any final say in the matter. They won't vote or anything like that. You can rest assured that the people who end up voting are the best players who have the experience.

About the bias thing, you really can't help this. This thread is supposed to be an open thread where people get to express their opinions, that's whole point of it. There's no point having a "discussion thread" when you prohibit people who genuinely want talk about their experiences from doing so. Think about it. If people start complaining about a Pokemon and is clear that they have no playing experience whatsoever (eg "OMG BAN BELLYZARD HE IS TOO POWERFUL"), do you think people would listen to them??

 

[Barilzar]

I'm speaking for myself by saying I already have. I'll tell you what the problem is: There are too many super powerful threats. There are only a handful of checks and counters for each of the threats and using them in conjunction to form a team doesn't always yield a successful result in terms of having a consistent team. The best thing I have been able to do is pick my poison and accept that I lose to one or two of the ridiculous threats while having consistency everywhere else.

And you wonder why people complain about getting a 1500 rating. It's because no one can achieve a consistency anywhere near what could be experienced in DPP.

Well yeah man, look how many fuckin pokemon are out now, their is no sure as fuck perfect team. Banning stuff cause your team can't deal with it is just retarded.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Well yeah man, look how many fuckin pokemon are out now, their is no sure as fuck perfect team. Banning stuff cause your team can't deal with it is just retarded.

Way to take something I said out of context. I never said I want these Pokemon banned because "my team can't handle them". I stated that these super powerful threats have only a few checks. That means you are going to be weak to one of those things no matter what. You should read through the Characteristics of Uber and the past suspect paragraphs. The only retarded thing here is denying that they don't belong there.

 

[Ulevo]

If people start complaining about a Pokemon and is clear that they have no playing experience whatsoever (eg "OMG BAN BELLYZARD HE IS TOO POWERFUL"), do you think people would listen to them??

I do, actually. I cannot say whether or not Salamence in Gen IV would have been banned otherwise without the inclusion of this problem, and I have no intentions of taking away the credibility of those who obtained the right to vote Salamence off. All of them were prolific, experienced players. However, there was a lot of community push to ban Salamence despite how long it had been included in DPPt, even with Outrage, and I feel that that influenced (to some degree) its fate.

With so many new threats pushing the status quo of what is and isn't acceptable in OU this generation, I'd (ideally) prefer to abstain from this kind of bias that shapes this metagame, although as you mentioned it might be completely inevitable anyway.

 

[November Blue]

JT Swift, at this point your posts are not even worth the time needed to reply. You pretend to come here with your one month long forum experience and tell us that we can't play Pokemon and that we're wrong if we try to keep distinct Heatran and Skymin?! Seriously dude, your post should be probably infracted with a "lurk more" warning.
Who do you think we are? Do you think that we allow anybody to decide our tiers? Jumpman16 and Aeolus spent almost 2 years of their Smogon time trying to select the best and more competent voters for our suspect votes. Now mr. 40 posts comes here saying that our ban policies are wrong and that our attitude is wrong as well, lol.

Sigh. Sorry man. I'm not here to abuse anyone. I'm all for civilized discussion of development/counters ect. but don't belittle me because I'm "new" and my opinions differ from yours. I never said that the system was wrong, I agree with smogon's decisions more often than not. What I don't agree with is this ban rampage, and being flamed constantly.

Are you kidding me?? Do you really want Ho-oh and Giratina tested??

No, I said discussed. Someone raised the topic of ubers in ou, and I think that giratina, lugia, ho-oh and groudon are the only remotely possible options. Whether they're actually OU viable is another story.

For example, lugia in OU would be an extremely sturdy wall. A real bitch to take down. With all these powerful pokes running around OU right now, is this a bad thing? What if we leave darkrai, manaphy, deoxys, skymin and lugia in OU for a while, and a stable metagame actually develops?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

To be fair, we only didn't hold a vote for Salamence earlier because we still had the initial Order of Operations rolling, so we couldn't just stop it and shoehorn Mence into the process.

 

[smashlloyd20]

The problem with doing that is 1; it would leave OU overrun by former Ubers, and 2) All former good OU Pokemon would be pushed aside. Ubers is where all the Pokemon too good for OU go, and if they are not the best Pokemon in Ubers then so what? They're still Uber.

 

[Barilzar]

For example, lugia in OU would be an extremely sturdy wall. A real bitch to take down. With all these powerful pokes running around OU right now, is this a bad thing? What if we leave darkrai, manaphy, deoxys, skymin and lugia in OU for a while, and a stable metagame actually develops?

That would be bad, at least one of those would become almost mandatory to be ran on almost every team. And honestly that sounds like a very stale meta-game.

 

[RBG]

This thread is a place to discuss the current metagame and potential suspects. Not to discuss which Pokemon should be moved down (which defeats the point of us even voting on a pre-ban list.)

 

[November Blue]

Way to take something I said out of context. I never said I want these Pokemon banned because "my team can't handle them". I stated that these super powerful threats have only a few checks. That means you are going to be weak to one of those things no matter what. You should read through the Characteristics of Uber and the past suspect paragraphs. The only retarded thing here is denying that they don't belong there.

One way of interpreting this is "fill your team with these overpowered pokes for an instawin!" You can't use them all at once.

EDIT: Maybe I should shut up for a while. I'm gonna go play some more, then see what happens.

 

[smashlloyd20]

Overpowered Pokes do not guarantee instawins. I use a team with 3 former Ubers and it works very well. However, most (but not all) former Ubers have 2 weaknesses; a lot of them are weak to Bug-type attacks, and most of the sweepers are quite frail. They're not invincible or anything.

 

[shrang]

Heh, ever since Deoxys-D has been allowed into OU I've wanted to try this thing:

Deoxys-D @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 68 SpD / 188 Spe
Nature: Bold
- Agility
- Toxic
- Recover
- Taunt

Gets quite annoying if you're not prepared for it. Before you go "lol walled by Steels", you will also need to consider that most Steel-types like Metagross and Jirachi and friends can't hurt Deoxys-D enough to really stop it, meaning you'd just PP stall them anyway. The Speed EVs allow Deoxys-D to outspeed Scarf Lati@s after an Agility, meaning you can Taunt them before they try to Trick you. Mischievous Heart Pokemon are annoying, but whatever.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

Like what smashlloyd said, using "overpowered pokes" in attempt to achieve instawins is a rather horrible strategy. As most of these past Ubers have a weakness(es) to Ice, Bug, etc., it's pretty easy to exploit these weaknesses, which gives the opponent a hand.

 

[Every1XplodeNOW]

You know what the drizzletoed ban talk reminds me of? When we were discussing banning damp rock in UU. I don't know if anyone thinks that way, but I do.

But it seems Politoed's fate will depend if manaphy is still broken without rain......just one question, I don't think this is really a thread to discuss this, but what if tail glow is the thing that's broken?

 

[Bologo]

This thread is a place to discuss the current metagame and potential suspects. Not to discuss which Pokemon should be moved down (which defeats the point of us even voting on a pre-ban list.)

From the OP:

You will also be allowed to nominate Uber Pokemon which you believe should be brought down and tested the next round.

Ok, so are we supposed to completely disregard the part of the OP that says we're going to be able to nominate Uber pokemon to be moved down for next round?

Heh, ever since Deoxys-D has been allowed into OU I've wanted to try this thing:

Deoxys-D @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 68 SpD / 188 Spe
Nature: Bold
- Agility
- Toxic
- Recover
- Taunt

Gets quite annoying if you're not prepared for it. Before you go "lol walled by Steels", you will also need to consider that most Steel-types like Metagross and Jirachi and friends can't hurt Deoxys-D enough to really stop it, meaning you'd just PP stall them anyway. The Speed EVs allow Deoxys-D to outspeed Scarf Lati@s after an Agility, meaning you can Taunt them before they try to Trick you. Mischievous Heart Pokemon are annoying, but whatever.

Actually, the Steels can easily hurt Deoxys-D enough to stop it. When you're not investing anything in your physical defense besides a nature, Deoxys-D is taking physical hits about as well as max/max Swampert but with less resists. Just as an example, CB Nattorei, which is a really hard-hitting Steel, does up to 75% with his Gyro Ball. Deoxys-D is going to have a very unhappy time against him. Jirachi's has a good chance at flinchhaxing Deoxys-D to death with up to 25% a piece. You might win against Metagross, but if he gets an Attack boost from one of his Meteor Mashes you're going to wish you didn't attempt to stall him out.

 

[alphatron]

As far as Deoxys-A and Deoxys-N go, I don't think "power creep" is a good reason to say why he has been nerfed and is no longer an uber candidate. Even with this "power creep" people talk about, not one pokemon (excluding Zekrom and Reshiram) has been introduced this generation with either 150 atk or 150 special attack. Nobody recieved a stat of 150 speed either.