np: LC - Blackbird, now with Voting!

[v]

This thread is for the discussion of suspects in LC. Exercise some common sense and make sure your arguments make sense. If you make an audacious claim such as “You can't even 64HKO Murkrow with Hi Jump Kick” or “Carvanha OHKOes Zuruggu even with Evo Stone and a hindering nature,” back them up with calculations! Bold statements are pretty useless without evidence. I also will not tolerate snide remarks or anything abrasive. Stuff like “LOL I can’t believe you think something so ridiculous!” will result in a warning. I want a civil discussion here, so keep the passive aggressive stuff and snarky little asides to yourself.

Brief recap from the last period: Only Inconsistent was banned. Everything else was kept via supermajority. The suspects were Evolution Stone, Inconsistent, Meditite, and Zuruggu. You can review the full arguments presented here.

Nominations will begin some time in the next two weeks depending on the discussion goes.

Here are the things which you can vote to ban or allow in the LC Metagame:

Meditite
Murkrow

Now, you are probably wondering how to vote. Well, luckily for you, I'm about to tell you! The voting system is virtually identical to last time, but this time Vader and I are going to be much more stringent in our selection. Here's what you gotta do:

1) Private message Dubulous and I with your ballots with banned things' names bolded and allowed things' names normal. So, if you wanted to ban Murkrow but not Meditite, your ballot would look like this:

Meditite
Murkrow

2) Then, in a paragraph, in full sentences, describe why you believe that the Pokemon/Ability/Item you are voting to ban deserves to be banned, or why they deserve to remain if you are voting that way. Don't be afraid of length. While the minimum is one paragraph, Vader and I encourage users to write as much as they want!

Voting will be closing March 5, 2011 at 11:59 EST. Any votes sent in after that point will be considered void unless there is a very good reason being given as to their tardiness. If you qualify, then you will be pmed that you have qualified and will be allowed to post in the voting thread in our voting site in PR.

Thanks again for your time, and I encourage you all to vote!

 

[iss]

Kicking this off...

I think we should really consider a ban on Drought. Once Sun is up, you need a weather counter (Snover, Hippopotas, Swablu, etc.) to stop it or a lot of really bulky Evo Stone mons. While one of the sun threats, Bulbasaur, is gone now due to no Chlorophyll, we still have to deal with Pokemon such as Exeggcute, Sewaddle, and most of all, Bellsprout. Even in this defensive Evo Stone era, it is still very hard to take Solarbeams and Fire Blasts all day from six sweepers that don't need any setup bar Vulpix. Sun is overcentralizing the metagame by forcing you to carry a hard counter or be swept. We should really consider banning Drought (or something similar to Aladron's proposal in OU, like banning the combo of Drought and Chlorophyll).

 

[Kannon]

I would like to bring probably the biggest offender, Meditite to everyone's attention. Even with Evo Stone, HJK + ZH 2hkoes all but the most incredibly defensive pokemon and OHKOes most things that don't resist them, and Bullet Punch gives it a finisher on most pokemon that can outspeed it. Pure Power is just too good to let slide by and it makes Meditite pretty broken.

 

[Venser]

I've been playing a lot more since the last nomination period and I'm of the opinion that Meditite isn't broken, or at least not as long as Evolution Stone remains unbanned.

 

[SkyNet]

Looks like we are kicking this off with a Drought debate. Personally I think perma sun is broken in this current metagame. As iss said there are just too many great chlorophyll sweepers out there to abuse the the gain in speed and one turn Solarbeam, so you always need to pack a specialized sun counter be it Swablu or RestTalk Lici, even then most 'sun sweepers' carry a sleep inducing move so one wrong move and your sun counter is now asleep. We all know sleep got a buff this gen as the sleep counter re-sets when you switch out, so if your sun counter lacks sleep talk kiss goodbye to it.

Another way to abuse Sun is to use Fire-types. Fire Pokemon get a major boost in STAB attack looking at the PO usage stats, there are only 4 pokemon in the top 21 that resist fire, those are Pururiru, Chinchou, Muchlax and Houndour. Slowpoke is ranked # 51 so I guess we can take them figures with a pinch of salt. Even then a boosted fire stab is still normally a 2-3KHO

 

[Zephyr]

I third the argument against Drought. I also second that an action similar to the one taken against Rain Dance in the overused tier would be appropriate for this matter, seeing as I'm always against being ban happy in any tier.


I'll edit in more later.

 

[SlimMan]

Going to have to agree with iss. Sun is ridiculous. Even Fire mons can sweep now. Nitro Charge means that they can boost up and use double STAB to sweep. The worst imo are Magby and Ponyta. Ecxellent mixed stats and coverage, and don't need any investment to reach the magic 14 speed.

Bellsprout is probably the worst Chlorophyll mon. With Growth, great STABs, and even priority in Sucker Punch, not much can deal with it once it gets going. Tesshiido seems like a great choice... until it hits you with a super effective Weather Ball. If you do have something that can wall it, you may end up coming in on a Sleep Powder, and thus becoming set-up fodder.

Hippopotas and Snover cannot switch in on any sun sweeper, because all common sun sweepers can OHKO them with the right move.

 

[Moo]

Sun needs to go. The sun sweepers are ridiculously powerful, and most of them have access to Sleep Powder, which makes them even more dangerous. Although I don't think Vulpix should be banned, just Drought.

Meditite is probably the poke that most deserves to go suspect. It's stupidly powerful right off the bat, and can 2hko pretty much everything in LC. It's also got Fake Out and Bullet Punch which is pretty powerful. Evolution Stone has added some balance to the LC metagame but i still think Meditite needs to go. Only a handul of pokes can check it. eg: Featherdance Murkrow. (It still cant switch in without taking alot of damage)

Wynaut has been sort of underlooked this gen. However with it's ability and support movepool, I think it needs discussion. With Counter and Mirror Coat, it will usually get at least one kill. And with Encore, it can guaruntee you a free move to setup.

 

[SlimMan]

Wynaut has been sort of underlooked this gen. However with it's ability and support movepool, I think it needs discussion. With Counter and Mirror Coat, it will usually get at least one kill. And with Encore, it can guaruntee you a free move to setup.

But what did Wynaut gain this Gen? It wasn't broken last Gen, and the only thing for it is Evolution Stone...

I think Wynaut is fine right where it is. With all the Murkrow's, Zuruggu's, etc. running around, Wynaut can't switch in on many sweepers. It can be stalled out by Leech Seed Tesshiido and burned/Shadow Balled by Pururiru.

It's certainly an amazing LC pokemon, but I don't think it's broken at all.

 

[(makeup)]

Pretty much agreeing with all the sun arguments. Plus, I don't think Evolution Stone should be banned. We have all these new offensive threats like Meditite and Murkrow running around, so we need some sort of defense to keep it balanced. True, if we ban all these crazy offensive threats, we'll have to ban Evolution stone too, but it's really a matter of keeping to current offensive and defense levels or cutting them both. Either way, it's balanced so I think we should keep everything other than sun since there are too many strong sweepers like Oddish and Bellsprout that can abuse it well.

 

[little gk]

Really, if the only set Murkrow ran was that Featherdance / Calm Mind / Roost / Hidden Power Dark set it'd be totally fine with shit like Gligar and Komatana around to check or counter it or whatever. Unfortunately, it has a ton of other options to run, whether it's Heat Wave for Komatana, Super Luck/Insomnia to get rid of the legality issues, a ToxicStall set or just a Life Orbed attacking set. With everything it can do on both sides, there isn't anything that can really deal with it

or we could just get rid of evo stone n.n

 

[smashlloyd20]

Agreeing with Charmander. The metagame is mostly balanced right now, as we have some new hugely powerful attackers such as Zuruggu but the Evo Stone to hold them in check. Sun deserves the boot though, similar to Drizzle in OU. I don't feel like restating the above arguments, see those.

 

[Nails]

I nommed krow last meta and it's still broken this meta. gtfo dark-type!

Meditite and is broken too. See above posts for reasoning.

A lack of chlorasaur is nice, but drought is still probably broken. I wonder why no one has abused moguryuu/mini dory much, it ohkoes gligar with a life orb hp ice and hits pretty damn hard, and nothing outspeeds it (barring scarf snover/psyduck).

 

[Rolf]

I don't like Murkrow. I basically have to dedicate a spot to Komatana on every team I make or risk getting beat by Murkrow - and those with Heat Wave still win!

Other than that, I haven't ran into much else I don't think fits into this meta.

 

[Heysup]

Honestly every offensive threat (ie Meditite, Vulpix, Murkrow) is mostly nullified by Evolution Stone. Some stall teams may have issues with set up mons with Evolution Stones, but they won't take shit from Meditite, Murkrow, or any growth/SD-less Sun Sweeper.

If anything's going to go, it should be Evolution Stone first.

 

[smashlloyd20]

I see no reason for Evo Stone to be banned. It's the only thing holding many powerful sweepers such as Meditite in check. If we ban it, the meta will suddenly become hyper-offensive and we will be forced to quickly ban Meditite, Murkrow and probably Zuruggu. I think the meta is mostly fine the way it is (besides possibly Sun).

 

[sax king]

I think pretty much everyone on here agrees that Sun needs to go. But I want to add that Murkrow is kind of broken. It can be likened to Extremekiller Arceus. It hits ridiculously hard, has a STAB base 80 power priority move (although Sucker Punch is kinda different), has great bulk with an evo stone, and has access to priority healing. It can hit with Brave Bird for a ton of damage on pretty much anything, and anything that outspeeds it is usually OHKO'd by STAB Sucker Punch. Some bulkier Evo Stone pokemon can take one or two hits, but that's just a chance for Murkrow to set up a Sub or Roost. And it is so unpredictable that it is hard to tell what to send out against it. Pokemon like Slowpoke can kind of outlast a Brave Bird barrage, but die to the CM set (and trust me, Slowpoke can't take too many Brave Birds either). If Murkrow opts for Mischievious Heart, it has priority Taunt, Substitute, and Roost. If it opts for Insomnia, it can't be put to sleep and has much more coverage with moves like Heat Wave. If it opts for Super Luck, it can ignore defense boosts and almost every hit is a critical hit with moves like Night Slash and Air Cutter (believe me, Scope Lense Air Cutter Night Slash is a terror). It's extremely bulky with an Evo Stone, too powerful with a Life Orb, and can't die with an Oran Berry. People say that Komatana is a good counter for it, but it's hard to tell when it's safe to use it. Murkrow may carry Heat Wave, and you can't tell until Komatana's already dead. In short, Murkrow is unpredictable, impossible to kill, and way too powerful for LC. The name of this thread is "Blackbird" people. Let's ban Murkrow.
(people read your post if it has pictures!)

 

[iss]

Here's my second suspect: Murkrow.

You can never have a perfect counter to Murkrow. Trying to use Komatana to counter the CM version? Bam, you just got hit by Heat Wave. Using Evo Stone Gligar to suck up Brave Birds? Be warned: FeatherDance and HP Ice will destroy you. With so many good coverage moves and crazy 85/85/91 attacking stats, I have no doubt that Murkrow is worth voting and perhaps banning. A weakness to Stealth Rock is a huge thorn in its side, but the same could be said for Scyther, Yanma, and Sneasel. Murkrow is probably the only LC mon without a hard counter right now (except for Wynaut lol). Even though SubRoost isn't used anymore, Murkrow is one of the few Pokemon that has changed very little in Gen V and yet is still very commonly used. It's time we did the same thing we did in Gen IV: ban it for once and for all.

edit: gdi saxking x_x

 

[Destiny Warrior]

I can't comment on Drought, since I'll start laddering once Vader announces the rating requirement, but I can comment on Evolution Stone.

Evolution Stone is the the fine thread that is holding this metagame together. Without it, Pokemon like Meditite are going to rampage, leading to a shitload of chain bans. Instead, I think we should just live with Evo Stone, considering the fact that all Evo Stone setup Pokemon must fear Monmen(including Zuruggu), which is an excellent Pokemon. Monmen can come in, and Encore any one of Murkrow's moves outside of HP Dark(you should bring in Monmen on a FeatherDance or a Calm Mind) regardless of MH, meaning after the Encore, you get a free Sub, and can proceed to abuse Encore to the fullest extent, and in general, a Monmen with a free Substitute is the most annoying thing to have ever been made.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

I got three things that I want to see banned.

Evolution Stone: I think that the argument for banning Berry Juice in Gen IV applies here as well. Choice Scarfers are no longer as good as they were last gen due to the effective 33% decrease in damage output due to the opponent's Evo Stone (Compare that to Berry Juice, where 25/45 is .555, a ~44% decrease in damage output with a mon that has 25HP). When I teambuild now, every Pokemon that does not have a Life Orb, Focus Sash, or Choice item now has an Evolution Stone. It turns great set-up sweepers like Murkrow and Zuruggu into ridiculous ones, and it turns excellent walls like Tesshiido and Munchlax into even better ones.

Murkrow: iss and sax king covered most of it. Too many sets you can run, combined with the effectiveness of each set. It's like Jirachi in OU, except what counters one set is obliterated by another.

Drought: STAB 100 power move? Sure. Reach 28 Speed, which only 19 or 20 Speed Scarfers can reach? Yes, please. 75% Accuracy Sleep move to use Growth, which gives you a Nasty Plot and a Swords Dance at the same time? :D This is just Bellsprout. Measly little Bellsprout who rips through your team. It outspeeds everything and can attack you with a STAB 100 power move off of 34 Sp.A after a Growth, which is easy because of Sleep Powder. There's also Shikijika, Oddish, Sewaddle; if that's not enough, you can get a double-STAB Scarf Houndour to add to the fun. Really, Drought needs to go.

EDIT1:

Instead, I think we should just live with Evo Stone, considering the fact that all Evo Stone setup Pokemon must fear Monmen(including Zuruggu), which is an excellent Pokemon

Zuruggu doesn't really fear Monmen; without a DD, it still does quite a bit damage (don't remember off the top of my head) with Ice Punch. Something funny about this, however, is that if Monmen doesn't come in on a set-up move, then it's going to die unless it has an item that gives it more defense...

 

[kokoloko]

I honestly think the only thing we need to ban in order to make Little Cup a balanced metagame right now is Drought Vulpix. Since I am in charge of the LC Suspect Test over on PO, I'll likely be banning Vulpix tomorrow, as no one has really been opposed to it on the thread I made. From there, I (and anyone else who plays on Beta) will be able to collect data of a meta which is not dominated by Sun teams, allowing me to expand this part of this post.

Although its not as immediately threatening to the metagame as Sun, I feel like Murkrow might also be worthy of being a suspect. Its sheer versatility makes it near impossible to switch into with little risk, and if you guess wrong, you lose a pokemon. Yeah, having the team-preview helps, as you can predict its switch in and hit it on the switch (which will, at the very least, tell you if its offensive or not), but that's not reliable at all.

That's all I have to say for now.

 

[sax king]

To those of you who want to nominate the Evo Stone:

Do you really want to go there?

The Evo Stone is the only thing keeping LC from spinning out of control. It is the only stopper in the whole system to many of the threats deemed too powerful, like Meditie (Slowpoke works wonders) and Zuruggu (Lickitung can take hits all day). The Evo Stone is what is holding the whole metagame in check. If we ban it, we will follow this ban with at least ten others, seeing that nothing will be able to handle many of the strong sweepers.

Furthermore, I see absolutely no reason to ban it. What about it makes it so broken? Sure, it makes several pokemon bulkier and harder to kill. It makes bulky offense much more viable. But keep in mind, LC is still a powerful metagame offensively. The pokemon are simply less frail, and can actually take a hit or two. They are by no means unkillable, you're just going to need to adapt to their new bulk. Offense got bulkier, but these pokemon are not walls. They're just less frail. Maybe you'll need two priority attacks to take down someone. But these offensive threats aren't defensive by any stretch. They are still weak and vulnerable. In my opinion, the Evo Stone has balanced LC. It has made stall viable and now not everything dies to Caterpie's tackle.

 

[smashlloyd20]

Engineer Pikachu: I'm going to reiterate what many other users have said. We NEED Evo Stone in the metagame. Without it, there are far too many powerful attackers, forcing us to ban a lot of otherwise unnessecary Pokemon. Do you want a far smaller metagame or one where Scarfers are no longer as viable?

EDIT: sax, stop ninja'ing everybody.

 

[Rakan]

I really don't think meditite is that much of a problem. Whenever I have faced it, it doesn't pose a threat, especially if you have a ghost type handy that can outspeed and KO with Shadow Ball such as Missy or Ghastly. Not a big problem IMO. I think drought is pretty broken with the amount of abusers and the fact that they get sleep powder makes things worse. The only teams I have lost to (with a sun team) are teams that carry Hippopotas or snover. But snover really shouldn't be an issue as vulpix can beat it...

 

[fatty]

Meditite: I feel meditite is way too powerful even with the additions BW brought. For example, Evo Stone supposedly made it easier to deal with, but even with it, what takes 2 hits from LO Tite and lives to tell the tale? The only thing ive had the pleasure of using to do just that is Slowpoke, and I dont know about you, but I dont want to run Slowpoke on every team. Even Evo Stone Hippo takes something crazy like 80% from LO HJK.

Murkrow: I can sum mine and most others issues with this Mon up in one word: Versatility. The sheer number of diverse sets it can run is just astounding, and when you add the fact that counters to one set get raped by its others, you have a pretty broken Mon on your hands.

Vulpix: This one's pretty much a no brainer. Vulpix and its perma-sun just centralize the metagame too much.

Evolution Stone: I don't see Evo Stone as a broken item at all, and I honestly don't know how others can think differently. I feel it's almost needed to deal with threats in the current metagame and to keep hyper-offensive teams from dominating.