Kyurem (Analysis)

Not part of the GP team but anyway,

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Kyurem

Status: Writing up analysis
QC Approval: Bloo, Setsusana
GP Checks:


Aerrow's Analysis

[Overview]

<p>Essentially a slightly weaker version of Rayquaza in the Overused tier OU, Kyurem completes the the Tao Trio of Generation V. Its unique Dragon/Ice typing differentiates Kyurem from other Dragon types, and with Base 130 Attack and Special Attack, Dragon / Ice typing makes it a great offensive threat Kyurem can definitely take advantage of this trait. Base 95 Speed is a bit underwhelming in today's metagame, but still is enough for Kyurem to outspeed certain threats. As an added bonus, Kyurem boasts respectable bulk, with Base 125 HP and twin 90 Base Base 90 Defense and Special Defense having 125/90/90 defenses.</p>

<p>However, there are reasons Kyurem failed to achieve Uber status, in spite of brilliant offenses and typing. To start, While Dragon/Ice is great offensively, it is a terrible defensive typing, and offsets the decent bulk that it contains Kyurem sports. Dragon-, Fighting-, Steel-, and Rock-type weaknesses make life horrible for Kyurem. Stealth Rock takes 25% of its HP every time it switches in. It is very susceptible to common priority moves such as Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, and Vacuum Wave, making it easy prey to revenge killers. Finally, Kyurem has no way, outside of Hone Claws, to boost of boosting its offensive stats or any form to boost its and its Speed. In spite of these shortcomings though, Kyurem can serve as an effective attacker with the proper support.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Dragon Pulse
item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Tying in Base Special Attack with the likes of Gengar, Espeon, Latios, Magnezon, Glaceon, and Heatran, Kyurem makes a great user of either Choice Scarf or Choice Specs. With Choice Scarf, Kyurem serves as a great revenge killer, sitting at 475 Speed with STAB Dragon- and Ice-type attacks at its disposal; meanwhile, Choice Specs powers up that great Special Attack to an impressive 538 SpA, ensuring very few will survive. The choice between revenge killing or powerful Special Attacker is up to the trainer, but the moveset for both remains the same. Draco Meteor tears through most anything that doesn't resist it nor is named, and through anything not named Eviolite, Chansey or Blissey. Ice Beam is secondary STAB, providing an alternative to Draco Meteor to combat fellow for taking down opposing Dragon types; with Salamence and Garchomp being Flying- and Ground-type, respectively, it is an easier KO against both without resorting to the Special Attack decreasing Draco Meteor.<p>

<p>Focus Blast takes precedence in the third slot. As it stands, Heatran resists both Draco Meteor and Ice Beam and can wear down Kyurem with STAB Fire Blast. Focus Blast takes care of that problem, securing an OHKO with entry hazards on most versions of Heatran; if. Using Choice Specs will guarantee that Heatran will always fall. The final slot is reserved for Hidden Power Fire or Dragon Pulse. Although Focus Blast already hits Ferrothorn for Super-Effective damage, Kyurem would have an easier time against it and Forretress and Scizor with a 4x Super Effective Hidden Power Fire using Hidden Power Fire would mean that Kyurem will be hitting Forretress and Scizor for 4x Super-Effect damage. Kyurem has much to fear from those three if it doesn't KO them in time, especially Scizor, whom can usually survive a Focus Blast and proceed to KO Kyurem with Bullet Punch.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Using Hidden Power Fire means lowering Kyurem's max Speed to 316, meaning This means that other Base 95 Speed Pokemon, such as Jolly Electivire and Jolly Darmanitan, can get the jump on Choice Specs Kyurem, or if Darmanitan wears a Scarf of its own against a Scarfed Kyurem. For that reason, Hidden Power Fire can be forgone for Dragon Pulse. This way, you don't sacrifice Kyruem's Speed and you have the ability to hit with a more consistent Dragon-type attack than Draco Meteor. This route is recommended only if you have of other ways to deal with Scizor and Bronzong though, since Focus Blast's shaky accuracy could mean the end of Kyurem.</p>

<p>Since Kyurem will constantly be switching in and out through the match, Rapid Spin support is a must to keep Stealth Rock off the field. Starmie works as an excellent partner, taking Fighting- and Steel-type attacks decently, being able to Recover the damage, and batter the physically inclined with Surf. Wish support is greatly appreciated, and Jirachi makes a good partner in this case, taking Rock- and Steel-type moves while healing Kyurem in the process. Magnezone and Heatran, though sharing the Fighting-type weakness, can come in on a Steel- or Fire-type, respectively, and in Magnezone's case, trap it, or in Heatran's case, scare foes away with STAB Fire attacks. Fighting-type partners will be greatly appreciated to take care of this set's greatest bane, Eviolite Chansey and Blissey.</p>

[SET]
name: All-Out Attacker
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Dragon Pulse
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While the previous set had the choice of hitting hard or striking fast, this one has the freedom to do both. Life Orb makes Kyurem a fantastic offensive threat, sporting 466 SpA to batter opponents. This comes at the cost of Kyurem's health, but the freedom to choose another attack should your opponent switch to a potential check or counter. Draco Meteor is slightly counterproductive to Life Orb due to the sharp Special Attack drop after use, but the power of it makes it too hard to pass up. Ice Beam beats the the majority of Dragon-types easily, namely, Salamence and Garchomp, without resorting to Draco Meteor. Focus Blast makes a return to hit Steel-types hard, plus the possibility of a Special Defense drop helps against certain foes who switch in, such as Scizor. In the last slot, the option of hitting Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Scizor in the form of Hidden Power Fire takes precedence while Dragon Pulse is the more consistent option over Draco Meteor should you wish to retain that great Special Attack without switching out.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>With Draco Meteor cutting Kyurem's Special Attack in half, it will be hard pressed to stay in after using it. At the cost of some power, Dragon Pulse can be used over Draco Meteor, freeing up the last slot for Hidden Power Fire. However, as mentioned earlier, with such a sky high Special Attack, it may be hard pressed to give up something so powerful. Though this set is harder to wall because of the great coverage and the freedom to attack, Blissey and Eviolite Chansey still serve as effective counters. Specially Defensive Forretress could shrug off Focus Blast too and can KO a weakened Kyurem with Gyro Ball.</p>

<p>In addition to the problem regarding the last moveslot, the vulnerability to all forms of entry hazards, especially Stealth Rock, and the lack of recovery, means this Kyurem is easily worn down, especially with Life Orb in factor. For that reason, Starmie makes a great partner, using Rapid Spin to blow away entry hazards and being an effective check against most Fighting-types. Wish support is also greatly appreciated, and Jirachi makes a good partner, since it can carry Super Effective moves like Fire Punch or Psychic to take care of Scizor and Conkledurr, respectively. Finally, Magnezone can trap bulkier Steel types and KO them with Hidden Power Fire should Kyurem forgo Hidden Power Fire.</p>

[SET]
name: Glaciate
move 1: Glaciate
move 2: Draco Meteor
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Focus Blast / Hidden Power Fire
item: Haban Berry / Lum Berry
nature: Modest
evs: 56 HP / 236 SpA / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Kyurem's signature move, Glaciate, is essentially a slightly powerful Icy Wind. This set has a bit of a surprise factor, since Glaciate rarely makes it on any of Kyruem's sets due to its low base power, plus it can work well as a lead or mid-, or late-game attacker. The idea is to come in on something that doesn't threaten Kyurem and fire off Glaciate on the switch in. From there, depending on what comes in Kyurem can beat it with STAB Draco Meteor, STAB Ice Beam, or Focus Blast. The EVs are tailored to beat non-scarfed Base 140 Speed Pokemon after the Speed drop, with Kyurem sitting at 280 Spe, plus in addition being just fast enough to beat neutral natured Lucario. The 56 HP EVs help Kyurem keep with its natural bulk, also allowing it to switch in to Stealth Rock four times before fainting.</p>

<p>The rest of the moveset is relegated to beating what Glaciate has slowed down. Draco Meteor hitting off of 390 SpA is no laughing matter, easily KO'ing most Pokemon after the Glaciate. Ice Beam is the safer option on most Dragon-types, especially those with quadruple weakness to Ice-type attacks. Focus Blast once again deals with the Steel types bound to come in on Kyurem, namely Ferrothorn.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Hidden Power Fire can go over Focus Blast to hit Bronzong, Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Forretress harder. However, this leaves you at the mercy of Heatran, whom will force you out after you use Glaciate. Then again, Kyurem has fulfilled its job of slowing down Scarfed Heatran, so any faster partner, such as Starmie, can come in and win outright. Again Eviolite Chansey and Blissey take little damage from even Kyurem's massive Special Attack, so partners such as Conkledurr are greatly appreciated. Magnezone once again provides Steel trapping on Scizor and Ferrothorn if you forgo Hidden Power Fire (though Focus Blast almost assuridly KO's Ferrothorn after the Glaciate.</p>

<p>In regards to item choice, many options can go: Leftovers helps recover HP, Life Orb powers up Kyurem's massive Special Attack. In regards to survivability though, any attack power decreasing Berry is the lead choice. In most situations, right after Kyurem knocks out a Pokemon, a revenge killer most assuridly comes in, in the form of Dragon-, Steel-, or Fighting-type. By using a Haban, Babiri, or Chople Berry, respectively, Kyurem can take the hit and destroy another Pokemon in the process. Lum Berry is a choice if you decide to use Kyurem as a lead.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Blizzard should only go over Ice Beam if you have Hail support. Hone Claws is the only way to boost Kyurem's attack power. However, there are very few physical moves which Kyurem can take advantage of, notably Outrage, Dragon Claw, and Stone Edge. It can help in a mixed set, making Blizzard a viable choice and ensuring Draco Meteor hits 100% of the time. Dragon Tail and Toxic can combine for some annoyance, but such a combo is better pulled off by more defensively oriented Pokemon. Endeavour can be used in tandem with Hail support to nab a KO. Kyurem would make a good Dual Screener if it were not for its terrible defensive typing. Substitute is an option due to being able to create greater than 101 HP Substitutes, but Kyurem would prefer to outright attack. The only other Special Attack viable for Kyurem's is Psychic, which batters incoming Fighting-types like Conkledurr without having to resort to Draco Meteor. However, its usage is very limited when Draco Meteor can hit pretty much everything that Psychic would.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>With Kyurem's sky high offenses, nothing is essentially a safe switch in. However, Eviolite Chansey and Blissey are possibly the best counters to Kyurem, since most sets are Special Attack oriented. Even mixed sets with Outrage can be outstalled by both, with Chansey marginally better at it, since a 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Eviolite Chansey takes 40.9% - 48.3% from a neutral natured, 40 Atk LO Outrage. From there, bulky Steel types, such as Jirachi, Bronzong, Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Specially Defensive Scizor can come in on Ice Beam or Draco Meteor. Most cannot take repeated hits from the likes of Focus Blast or Hidden Power Fire.</p>

<p>Kyurem, as mentioned earlier, is rather slow for a Dragon-type and carries no form of priority, so revenge killing is the best way to go. Do note however, that with its natural bulk, Kyurem can survive certain priority moves if at full health. For example, a Choice Banded Scizor using Bullet Punch deals 90.5% - 106.4% to a Timid 0 HP Kyurem: if it deals minimum damage, Scizor will lose. To ensure it goes down, Stealth Rock is a must to guarantee the OHKO on Kyurem.</p>
I'll get it done later. Sorry it's incomplete.
 
Babiri Berry should have a small mention in Other Options - I've found it quite fun to use. 60 Def EVs with a Babiri Berry allow Kyurem to survive Scizor's CB Bullet Punch after two lots of Stealth Rock damage, which is pretty nifty if you need to remove it to allow for something like a Swords Dance Terrakion sweep. It's not really worth going into a set, but works as a great lure, despite being a rather obscure choice.
 
The set that I use is a set based around countering pretty much every Dragon that will be ever used ever.

Kyurem
Babiri Berry
Still deciding on a nature. Right now thinking Rash.
252 SpA, 60 Def, 196 HP
Imprison
Draco Meteor
Outrage/Ice Beam
HP Fire

This set locks down both of the most powerful dragon moves after Imprison is set up. This basically poses as the counter to all dragon types. Babiri berry and HP fire allow defense against Scizor and other steels that want to ruin your fun. This set was designed for the Uber metagame, so for OU, remove Outrage and put in Ice Beam.
 
Honestly, I'm a bit disappointed with Kyurem considering he stands alongside two of the strongest title pokemon in a while. Reshiram who has perfect coverage in two moves and Zekrom who can tear down most of the metagame with a choice band. But what about Kyurem? A mediocre dragon that couldn't even get moved to uber because of a horrible movepool and bad typing.

Anyways, as for the topic it's about all he can really do. I think possible a physical attack Kyurem might warrant mention but the lack of ice physical stab kinda bites it in the ass.

Oh well, maybe next gen it'll get access to earth power and other tutor moves. And also a form that actually has good stats. (So help me if it is defensive)
 
Why does every time a Pokemon has part-Ice typing people complain it has "bad typing"? Do you hate them or what? Same thing goes to Psychic-type Pokemon.
 
Ice is horrible defense typing. To be honest, any pokemon who is part ice would be better of if it wasn't ice type, there isn't any exception to this.

Psychic was horrible defense typing 2nd-4th gen. It's only with the prominence of fighting in 5th that psychic can now be considered decent typing if only barely.

As for the question... Yes, I do kinda hate ice typing. I like ice attacks but screw ice typing. Psychic is meh either way.
 
Anything not part-Steel or Dragon is considered "bad typing" by you and your likes. Have you thought about metagame diversity? Yes, certainly, Psychic sucks, Mewtwo sucks too, right?
Also, regrding your "medicore" Dragon, why not try a Life Orb set on a Hail team? Even many Ice neutral Pokemon get OHKOed by a Life Orb boosted Blizzard.
 
You're taking this way too personally and are acting sort of butthurt, if you want to argue about this go make a thread somewhere else and complain over how underrated or whatnot the types are. This is the wrong area to be talking about this.

He doesn't add anything really to hail teams and his base speed is sort of disappointing considering how fast paced this metagame is. He'd work okay on hail teams but he'd be the same as any other ice type on an hail team just being able to do bigger hits and having a bit more bulk.
 
Anything not part-Steel or Dragon is considered "bad typing" by you and your likes. Have you thought about metagame diversity? Yes, certainly, Psychic sucks, Mewtwo sucks too, right?
Also, regrding your "medicore" Dragon, why not try a Life Orb set on a Hail team? Even many Ice neutral Pokemon get OHKOed by a Life Orb boosted Blizzard.
What do you do if a Scarfed Chandelure comes in then.
______________________________________________________

So a few people won't get a few letters,
boo hoo! You know the kind of stuff people write:
"Dear somebody you never heard of, how was so and so?
Blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah,
Yours Truly, Some Bozo." Big loss! - Homer Simpson
 
What do you do if a Scarfed Chandelure comes in then.


______________________________________________________

So a few people won't get a few letters,
boo hoo! You know the kind of stuff people write:
"Dear somebody you never heard of, how was so and so?
Blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah,
Yours Truly, Some Bozo." Big loss! - Homer Simpson
*Assuming that the other team has a scarfed Chandelure and that one poke makes a set completely useless*
 
What do you do if a Scarfed Chandelure comes in then.
______________________________________________________

So a few people won't get a few letters,
boo hoo! You know the kind of stuff people write:
"Dear somebody you never heard of, how was so and so?
Blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah,
Yours Truly, Some Bozo." Big loss! - Homer Simpson

Scarfed Chandelure is a problem for a lot of pokemon not just Kyurem. Anything that doesn't have shed shell, fails to outspeed, and is weak to one of its stabs will be in trouble. Even then however, Kyurem outruns it using his own scarf (kyurem base 95 speed> chandelure base 80) or by hitting its frail 60/90/90 defenses with his dragon stab move.

Also, Kyurem might not bring anything amazingly new to hail, but it is worthy to mention he's the only dragon that isn't affected by blizzard's 6.25% damage every turn(outside of cloud nine altaria and rayquaza) and obviously enough he gains 100% blizzards in hail making him a great option on a hail team.
 
Also, why isn't Outrage mentioned anywhere on the analysis? Why not try Ice Beam/Outrage/Glaciate/Focus Blast on the Scarf set?
 
Glaciate is extremely stupid on a scarf set because it's friggin scarfed and is already meant to outrun everything anyways. All the same, there is already a mention of a mix set with a life orb and mixed sets don't work all that well on choice items.
 

religiousjedi

Old man.
is a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Also, why isn't Outrage mentioned anywhere on the analysis? Why not try Ice Beam/Outrage/Glaciate/Focus Blast on the Scarf set?
religiousjedi said:
Even mixed sets with Outrage can be outstalled by both, with Chansey marginally better at it, since a 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Eviolite Chansey takes 40.9% - 48.3% from a neutral natured, 40 Atk LO Outrage.
How many EVs do you propose investing in Attack to make Outrage worthwhile while not cutting down that Special Attack, which Kyurem has an expansive amount of special based attacks compared to physical based attacks?

I've already made the mention of Outrage (and Stone Edge for that matter) in Other Options, but as I've said many times, mixed Kyurem is not viable at the moment.
 
Would the Glaciate set work as a lead?
How many EVs do you propose investing in Attack to make Outrage worthwhile while not cutting down that Special Attack, which Kyurem has an expansive amount of special based attacks compared to physical based attacks?

I've already made the mention of Outrage (and Stone Edge for that matter) in Other Options, but as I've said many times, mixed Kyurem is not viable at the moment.
Blizzard/Draco Meteor/Outrage/Focus Blast, why shouldn't that work?
 

religiousjedi

Old man.
is a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Would the Glaciate set work as a lead?

Blizzard/Draco Meteor/Outrage/Focus Blast, why shouldn't that work?
Yes, the Glaciate set works as a lead (or even later on in the match).

The question still stands: how many EVs do you propose to make Outrage viable?
 
He just explained a set of that can't work on Kyerum because it can be outstalled.

Also there are no leads in 5th gen so don't cite "it would work well as a lead". All the same, citing blizzard as anything near standard set is just dumb when you can just use ice beam.
 
He just explained a set of that can't work on Kyerum because it can be outstalled.

Also there are no leads in 5th gen so don't cite "it would work well as a lead". All the same, citing blizzard as anything near standard set is just dumb when you can just use ice beam.
There is no such thing as a battle without a lead, so it'd be nice if people stop saying this.

Yes, there are fewer "standard leads" in Gen V than there waaay back in Gen IV when everybody and their mother was Stealth Rock high. He is saying that Kyurem would be good as a lead (or should I say, "Pokemon in the front of the party", since "Lead" is apparently misleading) because its power puts immediate offensive pressure on the opponent, which is not something most people want on turn 1; that feeling that what you happened to lead with is about to be vaporized be a Latios-esque Draco Meteor (unless you happen leading with a Steel, which would get vaporized or severely damaged by HP Fire or Focus Blast) isn't something you want on turn 1. There ARE leads in Gen V. They ARE NOT a completely different metagame of sorts like they were in Gen IV. Kyurem, in fact, does "would work well as a lead" for that beginning pressure.

Hail/Blizzard is a completely different story.
 
He just explained a set of that can't work on Kyerum because it can be outstalled.

Also there are no leads in 5th gen so don't cite "it would work well as a lead". All the same, citing blizzard as anything near standard set is just dumb when you can just use ice beam.
I already said I used this Kyurem on a Hail team...
 
@Seth The thing is lead is misleading and can't be named as such since a lead is meant to always come first and it can't do that. Pokemon meant to solely be leads just don't work this metagame because they can just send out a pokemon that would counter your pokemon and screw you over completely. The reason there is no such things as leads is because your opponent can switch their opponent however they want depending on your team. Leads only existed in the past is because your opponent had no idea what your first pokemon would be.
 

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