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Stealth Rock Discussion
- Thread starter cornYBird
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Solar Power Charizard does have a shot of making OU though.
Seriously though, by removing Pokemon that are super-weak to SR from your team, you also increase your team's resistance to Stealth Rock. I don't see why people complain that SR sucks because their team is horribly destroyed by it. If your team has a gaping Rock weakness, even without SR something fast with Stone Edge can probably demolish your team anyway and your only hope would be "pls Stone Edge miss pls Stone Edge miss". Your team sucks if it dies to SR, deal with it.
Well, that's hardly fair to say "your team sucks if anyone has a 4x rock weakness". Even a 2x rock weakness is still crippling against Stealth Rock. Most Rock attacks don't have 100% accuracy, so that does balance out crippling weaknesses a little, but Stealth Rock hits no matter what as soon as you come out on the field. One move that basically passively neuters every Bug/Flying, Fire/Flying, Fire/Bug and anything else weak to Rock to the point where the answer is "don't run them on your team" is a bit much, I think. There are tons of pokemon that are 4x weak to Fire, yet no one's suggesting that a team sucks with them on (Scizor, Forretress, Abomasnow, etc.), so why should Rock be the special type that determines your team composition?
notice how I said "if your team has a gaping Rock weakness". Anything with Stone Edge can come in and have a field day and you'd have to pray on a 20% chance of it missing.
Notice how you said 4x weak to fire. Except Scizor and Forretress are 2 absurdly good Pokemon regardless, and that fire is their only weakness. And generally speaking, running a Hail team(the only reason you'd really run Abomasnow) would require something that can take those Fire attacks to the face. 4x weak Pokemon are still good in the meta if they are strong enough, the top 5 in usage(Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Scizor, the now-banned Chomp, Gliscor) all have 4x weaknesses. So what?
If we had stuff like Fire-type version of SR, or an Ice-type version, we might be looking at a whole different metagame than this, period.
And why must Rock be the special type that determines your team composition? Simple, because there is no other variant of Stealth Rock. If there was an Ice-type variant, everyone would have reservations about using Dragons in OU(the only one hit neutrally by it would be Kingdra, the Latis/Hydreigon/Haxorus are 2x, everyone else is 4x).
Thankfully things with a strong stone edge/rock slide are relatively rare (terrakion, landorus, tyranitar, excadrill is about the entire list)
Listen to yourself. 4x weak Pokemon are still good in the meta if they are strong enough That's exactly what he's saying: 4x fire, fighting, ice weaks are among the top pokemon despite their weakness TO COMMON ATTACKING TYPES, and yet 4x rock weaks are completely shafted.
You guys need to stop hiding behind the hole of "sr is good for the metagame," and come out and actually think what it does.
Charizard does not suck without sr: it was BL in the generation before SR http://www.smogon.com/rs/pokemon/charizard
Same with Articuno: http://www.smogon.com/rs/pokemon/articuno
and Moltres: http://www.smogon.com/rs/pokemon/moltres
Some OU 2x weaks got shafted too: Regice comes to mind, Aero was relegated to being a lead, Zapdos wasn't as baller as before,
So no, your claim that these pokemon would be bad anyways is wrong. (Imo, there should've been a stealth dragon or stealth neutral)
Also, removing multiscale/focus sash/sturdy is a completely illegit argument. (Durr something is competitive because it makes something else competitive useless.) No. That's what we call BROKEN. For example: Swift Swim+Drizzle was banned (should've just banned Drizzle IMO, but that's another argument) because it made every other strategy against it useless, with basically +1 Atk/+1 SpA/+2 Spe to any sweeper. (Although tbh, multiscale dragonite would be a bitch).
Nerfing Volcarona is a legit argument though. QD for ubers.
I'm fine with keeping SR. I'm just not fine listening to silly arguments when clearly you're all in a little protective hole unwilling to come out and look at the facts.
(Btw SR should've been banned in gen4, and still arguably should be banned)
Listen to yourself. 4x weak Pokemon are still good in the meta if they are strong enough That's exactly what he's saying: 4x fire, fighting, ice weaks are among the top pokemon despite their weakness TO COMMON ATTACKING TYPES, and yet 4x rock weaks are completely shafted.
You guys need to stop hiding behind the hole of "sr is good for the metagame," and come out and actually think what it does.
Charizard does not suck without sr: it was BL in the generation before SR http://www.smogon.com/rs/pokemon/charizard
Same with Articuno: http://www.smogon.com/rs/pokemon/articuno
and Moltres: http://www.smogon.com/rs/pokemon/moltres
Some OU 2x weaks got shafted too: Regice comes to mind, Aero was relegated to being a lead, Zapdos wasn't as baller as before,
So no, your claim that these pokemon would be bad anyways is wrong. (Imo, there should've been a stealth dragon or stealth neutral)
Also, removing multiscale/focus sash/sturdy is a completely illegit argument. (Durr something is competitive because it makes something else competitive useless.) No. That's what we call BROKEN. For example: Swift Swim+Drizzle was banned (should've just banned Drizzle IMO, but that's another argument) because it made every other strategy against it useless, with basically +1 Atk/+1 SpA/+2 Spe to any sweeper. (Although tbh, multiscale dragonite would be a bitch).
Nerfing Volcarona is a legit argument though. QD for ubers.
I'm fine with keeping SR. I'm just not fine listening to silly arguments when clearly you're all in a little protective hole unwilling to come out and look at the facts.
(Btw SR should've been banned in gen4, and still arguably should be banned)
It's clear to me that you didn't read anything posted. Saying something "Would be OU if it weren't for SR" is totally useless. Slaking would be OU if it weren't for Truant, and Probopass would be OU if it didn't have 2 x4 weaknesses. But that's how it is. Charizard would be OU if it weren't for SR, but SR exists, so too bad. We won't change the metagame just to cater to specific mons. If a pokemon is x4 weak to something, that's just too bad. Some are worse than others. For example, Toxicroak doesn't really care bout being x4 weak to Psychic, mostly because Psychic is rare. Rock is not. Most physical attackers can learn Stone Edge, and it gets great coverage. And it's too bad that they are also weak to an entry hazard. But that doesn't make it broken. That just means it's bad for certain pokemon. But "broken" never meant "bad for charizard/articuno/moltres etc." Nothing about it is broken, and for those pokemon x4 weak to Rock, that's just too bad.
For example, Toxicroak doesn't really care bout being x4 weak to Psychic, mostly because Psychic is rare. Rock is not.
iirc ice/fire/fighting is more common than rock. Ex: Mixtar runs ice beam and fire blast over stone edge/rock slide.
but most don't use it: ttar rarely runs it anymore b/c of mixtar, scizor and gliscor never run it. That's 3 of the top 5 (1 of the top 5 is also banned).
And it's too bad that they are also weak to an entry hazard. But that doesn't make it broken. That just means it's bad for certain pokemon.
That just means it's bad for certain pokemon.
when the size of OU is ~50 and a lot of pokemon miss it just because of SR... I think its more than just "certain pokemon." Here's a list of the top of my head
Charizard, Articuno, Moltres, Yanmega, Staraptor, Honchkrow, Scyther, Swellow, Typhlosion, Arcanine, Rotom-H
that's just gen 1-4 off the top of my head. That's more than 20% of the size of OU. It's not just "certain pokemon," its a large portion of the metagame.
I'm not even going to argue SR should be banned because of severe nerfing of a large portion of the metagame. In gen 4, only 2 fire types were OU, and both of those were neutral to SR. However, >9001 Steels and Grounds were OU, and although you may not realize it, the reason that that Scizor is better than that Scyther is largely attributed to SR.
Nothing about it is broken, and for those pokemon x4 weak to Rock, that's just too bad.
quote myself: "I'm fine with keeping SR. I'm just not fine listening to silly arguments when clearly you're all in a little protective hole unwilling to come out and look at the facts." It's not a competitive aspect of the game if 20% of the metagame gets shafted by it.
Also you never explained why SR is competitive anyways >>e
also about overcentralization: lets look at Gen 1 Ubers. The metagame was CENTRALIZED about MEWTWO. It was all about if you could beat the opponent's mewtwo, or your mewtwo could get that amnesia up first. Mewtwo Mewtwo Mewtwo.
and it was banned.
As was Latias last gen (apparently).
Overcentralization may "seem" like a silly concept, but it has hidden effects that make such things broken.
From DougJustDoug's thread on the aspects of a competitive metagame:
Variety
The metagame should have the widest possible variety of playing options and strategies that are viable and competitive for knowledgeable players.
so no, crippling 20-25% of the metagame is not competitive. And neither is overcentralizing (imo scizor isn't overcentralizing since a portion of the metagame counters him without trying (ie they're still good) that if he was banned then there would be little shift in the metagame. Maybe Reuniclus rise a little, Rotom-W drop a little, but no significant impact like Latias ban last gen)
Also Espeon people + Rapid Spin people: note that you're running these things just because of stealth rock -______-
Another thing about stealth rock:
It is TOO GOOD. With just 1 turn, if you count the accumulation of switching and etc, it probably does >200% a game for you: a HUGE amount. We see things like specs Draco Meteor used to just do dents to pokemon, and yet with using SR you are not 1. stuck in a move 2. at -2 SpA, and you did much more damage. (this is also why it is overcentralizing)
Let's look at SR for the metagame:
[PROS]
- Keeps Volcarona in his damn place my god
[CONS]
- Nerfs Focus Sashes, Sturdy, Multiscale
- Don't say these things are broken. 1. you have no evidence as we never had a metagame without SR that had these things, 2. just attack
- Nerfs Flying, Bug, Fire, and Ice types to hell
- 20-25% of the metagame = dead. = Not good.
- Overcentralizes the metagame
- 20-25% of the metagame = dead. = Not good.
- Does way too much damage for 1 turn - broken.
Seriously - 8 switches average to a dead pokemon.
If you think overcentralization isn't broken go play ubers.
iirc ice/fire/fighting is more common than rock. Ex: Mixtar runs ice beam and fire blast over stone edge/rock slide.
but most don't use it: ttar rarely runs it anymore b/c of mixtar, scizor and gliscor never run it. That's 3 of the top 5 (1 of the top 5 is also banned).
And it's too bad that they are also weak to an entry hazard. But that doesn't make it broken. That just means it's bad for certain pokemon.
That just means it's bad for certain pokemon.
when the size of OU is ~50 and a lot of pokemon miss it just because of SR... I think its more than just "certain pokemon." Here's a list of the top of my head
Charizard, Articuno, Moltres, Yanmega, Staraptor, Honchkrow, Scyther, Swellow, Typhlosion, Arcanine, Rotom-H
that's just gen 1-4 off the top of my head. That's more than 20% of the size of OU. It's not just "certain pokemon," its a large portion of the metagame.
I'm not even going to argue SR should be banned because of severe nerfing of a large portion of the metagame. In gen 4, only 2 fire types were OU, and both of those were neutral to SR. However, >9001 Steels and Grounds were OU, and although you may not realize it, the reason that that Scizor is better than that Scyther is largely attributed to SR.
Nothing about it is broken, and for those pokemon x4 weak to Rock, that's just too bad.
quote myself: "I'm fine with keeping SR. I'm just not fine listening to silly arguments when clearly you're all in a little protective hole unwilling to come out and look at the facts." It's not a competitive aspect of the game if 20% of the metagame gets shafted by it.
Also you never explained why SR is competitive anyways >>e
also about overcentralization: lets look at Gen 1 Ubers. The metagame was CENTRALIZED about MEWTWO. It was all about if you could beat the opponent's mewtwo, or your mewtwo could get that amnesia up first. Mewtwo Mewtwo Mewtwo.
and it was banned.
As was Latias last gen (apparently).
Overcentralization may "seem" like a silly concept, but it has hidden effects that make such things broken.
From DougJustDoug's thread on the aspects of a competitive metagame:
Variety
The metagame should have the widest possible variety of playing options and strategies that are viable and competitive for knowledgeable players.
so no, crippling 20-25% of the metagame is not competitive. And neither is overcentralizing (imo scizor isn't overcentralizing since a portion of the metagame counters him without trying (ie they're still good) that if he was banned then there would be little shift in the metagame. Maybe Reuniclus rise a little, Rotom-W drop a little, but no significant impact like Latias ban last gen)
Also Espeon people + Rapid Spin people: note that you're running these things just because of stealth rock -______-
Another thing about stealth rock:
It is TOO GOOD. With just 1 turn, if you count the accumulation of switching and etc, it probably does >200% a game for you: a HUGE amount. We see things like specs Draco Meteor used to just do dents to pokemon, and yet with using SR you are not 1. stuck in a move 2. at -2 SpA, and you did much more damage. (this is also why it is overcentralizing)
Let's look at SR for the metagame:
[PROS]
- Keeps Volcarona in his damn place my god
[CONS]
- Nerfs Focus Sashes, Sturdy, Multiscale
- Don't say these things are broken. 1. you have no evidence as we never had a metagame without SR that had these things, 2. just attack
- Nerfs Flying, Bug, Fire, and Ice types to hell
- 20-25% of the metagame = dead. = Not good.
- Overcentralizes the metagame
- 20-25% of the metagame = dead. = Not good.
- Does way too much damage for 1 turn - broken.
Seriously - 8 switches average to a dead pokemon.
If you think overcentralization isn't broken go play ubers.
First of all the list of pokes that get badly hindered by SR is huge!Just ask some questions to yourself:
Why are bug and fire types considered bad defensively???
'Cause of sr!You can't do your job at walling when you take 25% just for switching in...
Why ice types are not used at all???
'Cause of SR also...With also i mean that it is not the only reason as we all know that ice types are not used 'cause they lack any real resistances but SR is the biggest thorn on their side...
And Charizard,articuno and typhlosion would all be good uu pokes if it wasn't for SR...It doesn't matter how many pokes are not ou because of sr...What matters is how many pokes can't reach their full potential 'cause of it...And these pokes are a lot!!!
I don't want SR banned but saying that some pokes that get fucked up by it are ok because they were already bad means nothing....It seems more logical to me to say sr is bad 'cause it hinders already bad pokemon which now won't get used at all because they suck so much...
And anyway the fact that some pokes don't fit in ou or even in uu doesn't mean that we shouuld neglect them...Every poke matters in each own tier...(except for some which are completely useless with or without sr like luvdisc,castform etc)!
And finally i like the fact that when you mention the pokes with 4x weakness to sr you just mention the most useless to make it seem like sr does nothing to good pokes...Guess what ninjask,moltres and yanmega are good uu pokes and not useless at all...!
Most sr weak pokes were bad to begin with???Were did you get that???
Maybe you are thinking about articuno,charizard and typhlosion...But these are the worst that get hindered...So let's see...
There is arcanine,ninjask,moltres,yanmega,staraptor,weavile and some more that i am forgetting that can't make it in ou mainly because of sr!
How completely bad all these pokes are right????
And also it doesn't matter how many threats get chekced by sr.If without sr these threats were broken then that's fine!
Let them go to ubers!Isn't this what we do with broken mons???Just let the broken mons go to ubers so that more pokes can see some use...
When 5 pokes get banned from ou then 5 pokes are going to come from uu to ou and then 5 pokes are going to come from ru to uu and so on...But because of sr some pokes are rotting in the bottom of all tiers getting no use at all...Not because they suck(and when we say suck we are not talking only about ou we are talking about all tiers)but becuase they lose such big amounts of health just by switching in!!!
Do you honestly think that the 4x weak sr pokes wouldn't be uu or even ru if it wasn't for sr???
And don't even bother mentioning to me that volcarona besides a 4x weakness to sr is still high ou...If a pokemon with BST of 540,with 135 sp.atc.,105 sp.def and 100 speed with the 2nd best boosting move that only a few pokes get,with many reistances and few weaknesses is needed to overcome the disadvantge that sr brings to the table then it is clear that sr does more than cripple already ''bad'' pokes...!
I don't want sr banned only because there must be an entry hazard that damages fliers and levitators to keep the balance of the metagame!But this doesn't mean that sr is not a ridiculous move that makes so much pokes bad by default and doesn't has so many counters...
sr is totally and completely overcentralizing. it basically means some types=BAWS and others can rot in hell. Ice died.....there is no ice type in OU right now.NONE(atleast i think so) even that CAP ice type is hardly used(4x weak)
but imagine salamence and latios and shit coimng in without taking damage.
and whoever says Sr isnt overcentralizing go read the smogon analysises. that thing's all over the place. aerodactyl was OU SOLELY because of ONE MOVE. isnt that a little......welll STUPID.
we'er just going in circles on this thread./\/\/\
sr will never get the hammer though,sad enogh. |||||
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but imagine salamence and latios and shit coimng in without taking damage.
and whoever says Sr isnt overcentralizing go read the smogon analysises. that thing's all over the place. aerodactyl was OU SOLELY because of ONE MOVE. isnt that a little......welll STUPID.
we'er just going in circles on this thread./\/\/\
sr will never get the hammer though,sad enogh. |||||
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Oy...it's like arguing with a freaking wall.
Saying something "would be OU" if it wasn't for Stealth Rock is a silly defense for banning Stealth Rock. Plenty of potentially good Pokemon might be OU if it wasn't for [insert threat]. That doesn't mean we ban everything just to make what you like more viable.
And if you really want to use Charizard and Moltres in OU, YOU CAN. You just have to have a lot of support for them. If you're not willing to give them the support they need to be successful, then you either need to take them off your team or accept the fact that you are using Pokemon with a gaping weakness but are too stubborn to do anything about it.
For the 1000th time, "overcentralizing" is a BS term created by people who whine about what they don't like. I swear there should be a stickied thread on Smogon that reads "STOP USING OVERCENTRALIZING AS A DEFENSE FOR ANYTHING." All it means is that you think something should be banned because it's too popular, which isn't a valid argument.
The reason Stealth Rock isn't going to be banned is because it's not broken. END
Saying something "would be OU" if it wasn't for Stealth Rock is a silly defense for banning Stealth Rock. Plenty of potentially good Pokemon might be OU if it wasn't for [insert threat]. That doesn't mean we ban everything just to make what you like more viable.
And if you really want to use Charizard and Moltres in OU, YOU CAN. You just have to have a lot of support for them. If you're not willing to give them the support they need to be successful, then you either need to take them off your team or accept the fact that you are using Pokemon with a gaping weakness but are too stubborn to do anything about it.
For the 1000th time, "overcentralizing" is a BS term created by people who whine about what they don't like. I swear there should be a stickied thread on Smogon that reads "STOP USING OVERCENTRALIZING AS A DEFENSE FOR ANYTHING." All it means is that you think something should be banned because it's too popular, which isn't a valid argument.
The reason Stealth Rock isn't going to be banned is because it's not broken. END
Most of the metagame is based around SR. As mentioned above, SR completely makes or breaks many otherwise viable pokemon; SR weakness is often one of the only damning properties of a pokemon, banishing it from OU. Damage calculations are almost always done with SR included. If people want to use a certain SR weak pokemon, then they're forced to run a Rapid Spinner, which forces them to select from a very small pool of pokemon for that one slot (according to Bulbapedia, only 18 fully evolved users; out of those 18, only a handful are OU viable). If Rapid Spin had a larger distribution, I probably wouldn't complain so much, but I hate feeling like that I have almost no choice in one of my spots. It's also basically passive damage. It takes one turn to set up, and the only ways to prevent set up are Taunt or Magic Coat/Guard (to be fair though, Taunt is fairly common), and without a spinner, the damage racks up massively. And because Stealth Rock is so useful, I'm gonna probably want a SR inducer of my own. And to protect that SR inducer, I'm gonna need a ghost to spinblock. So with all that in mind, the options of a team are quite a bit lower than they'd be without Stealth Rock.
Does this mean that Stealth Rock needs to be banned? Maybe, maybe not. But you can't argue that it isn't overcentralizing. This one move is practically the entire core of the metagame. Overcentralizing doesn't mean popular, it means that teams more or less HAVE to be constructed with the move in mind. Sure, you can probably get away with a team with no Rapid Spinner or Taunter or SR inducer, but at that point, you're just crippling yourself.
It doesn't matter how much the game revolves around something if that something ISN'T BROKEN. Scizor was a huge threat last generation (and it still is). It was incredibly popular and it was mentioned plenty of times across a range of analyses. However, it wasn't banned. Why? Centralization is not an argument for banning. The most popular things are always centralizing. They're very good, so you have to be able to deal with them or you probably will not do as well as you otherwise could have. Overcentralization doesn't exist. It's a stupid term. It means nothing. People who whine about that which they don't like caught on that centralizing wasn't a good enough argument so they simply added "over" to the beginning of it to try and trick the community.
Stealth Rock just isn't broken. The fact that it makes certain things much less viable doesn't matter because plenty of Pokemon are made much less viable for a variety of reasons.
Stealth Rock just isn't broken. The fact that it makes certain things much less viable doesn't matter because plenty of Pokemon are made much less viable for a variety of reasons.
Going back to my list of Pros and Cons (just cons really: no pros to stealth rock >>)
[CONS]
- Nerfs Focus Sashes, Sturdy, Multiscale you did not address this
- Nerfs Flying, Bug, Fire, and Ice types to hell you really didn't address this...
- Overcentralizes the metagame dude variety variety variety. You don't seem to understand, theoretically nothing is broken because both teams can use the "broken" thing and the game is fair. However, then the game isn't competitive as everyone is running the same damn team.
- Does way too much damage for 1 turn - broken. you did not address this
In other words, you only addressed overcentralization by saying it was "silly." No evidence whatsoever, just that is was a "made-up term." Well sir, I just wanted to say, I don't want a metagame with 6 Arceus teams. I don't even want one where a good quarter of the should-be viable pokemon are unviable because of a single move.
Latias wasn't banned because it lolovercentralized the metagame. Latias was centralizing because it was powerful and popular, but it was banned because it was decided that something it could do was broken. A team of 6 Arceus would never happen in OU because Arceus is BROKEN. Stealth Rock isn't BROKEN.
Scizor was centralizing. It was very threatening and very popular, so if your team didn't have a way to deal with it, you probably didn't do well. That is the definition of centralization; however, not everything that's centralizing is broken.
Scizor was centralizing. It was very threatening and very popular, so if your team didn't have a way to deal with it, you probably didn't do well. That is the definition of centralization; however, not everything that's centralizing is broken.
Its kinda annoying that it makes some kinds of pokes virtually unusable, such as Articuno. Yes, one can always pack a rapid spinner, but the opponent can also just as easily pack a spinblocker. If SR were banned, stall wouldn't be dead, hello toxic spikes and spikes still exist. I would be willing to consider it if Volcarona wasn't arond -.-
Articuno wouldn't be that good anyway honestly, charizard is okay in OU with sun support, but nothing to really write home about. The most noticeable effects of Stealth Rock is that it allows for certain OHKOs and 2HKOs to be achieved. This was a huge deal for Salamence and Lucario last gen.
Charizard happens to have Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, and the infamous Belly Drum, as well as the specs set having explosive power under the sun. However, at best I would expect it to be around ~35 in usage.
Articuno is the bulkiest of Zapdos/Moltres/Articuno, and although sporting 4 weaknesses to 2 resistances and 1 immunity, it has SubRoost with pressure, as well as access to the rare Heal Bell. Probably Low OU/High UU in terms of OU usage.
Honestly, there are other pokemon that would become prominent forces. Staraptor, Yanmega, Arcanine, and Honchkrow will see huge jumps in usage. Scarf Typhlosion, Guts Swellow, and Rotom-H wouldn't be bad either. Already OU pokemon like Gyarados and Zapdos will return to their places from previous gens - at the top of the hill
Articuno is the bulkiest of Zapdos/Moltres/Articuno, and although sporting 4 weaknesses to 2 resistances and 1 immunity, it has SubRoost with pressure, as well as access to the rare Heal Bell. Probably Low OU/High UU in terms of OU usage.
Honestly, there are other pokemon that would become prominent forces. Staraptor, Yanmega, Arcanine, and Honchkrow will see huge jumps in usage. Scarf Typhlosion, Guts Swellow, and Rotom-H wouldn't be bad either. Already OU pokemon like Gyarados and Zapdos will return to their places from previous gens - at the top of the hill
Now I agree with that fact stealth rock is REALLY broken, but i do not think it should be banned. All teams do not need it to win but if one player has it up and the other does not it does give them auto advantage.
Also not to mention that it alone puts good pokemon like moltres charizard and zapdos in lower tiers, but it should not be banned as it can be easily stopped if predicted properly.
Also not to mention that it alone puts good pokemon like moltres charizard and zapdos in lower tiers, but it should not be banned as it can be easily stopped if predicted properly.
^Stating that you think something is majorly broken but shouldn't be banned is incredibly contradictory.
Also, as I have said before, Stealth Rock limiting the usefulness of otherwise potentially good Pokemon isn't anything surprising. Plenty of top threats make other Pokemon less usable in OU.
And just an fyi, but Stealth Rock isn't the reason Zapdos dropped to UU - Thundurus most likely is. Zapdos was solid OU last generation despite Stealth Rock.
Also, as I have said before, Stealth Rock limiting the usefulness of otherwise potentially good Pokemon isn't anything surprising. Plenty of top threats make other Pokemon less usable in OU.
And just an fyi, but Stealth Rock isn't the reason Zapdos dropped to UU - Thundurus most likely is. Zapdos was solid OU last generation despite Stealth Rock.
Jesus, just let this shit die.
You're right. We should just let the topic die. Frankly, the arguments for banning Stealth Rock now are just as silly as they've always been. Nothing has changed. Stealth Rock isn't going to be banned.
So we should remove things so other pokemon can shine? I mean I'd love to use my scrappy Kangaskahn in OU but Ferrothorn is to much for it (so she just tears it up in RU/UU) maybe we should get rid of ferrothorn? (j/k, sarcasm)
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