Stealth Rock Discussion

[133k]

Result of banning sr:

Pokemon 1 item: Focus sash
Pokemon 2 item: Focus sash
Pokemon 3 item: Focus sash
Pokemon 4 item: Focus sash
Pokemon 5 item: Focus sash
Pokemon 6 item: Focus sash

yeah, don't ban it, it keeps the metagame nice and healthy.

Spikes.

nao wut. Unless you're running an entire team of Levitaters/Flying types, in which case your team probably wouldn't be that great.

Seriously though, I do see your point, but I doubt that'd be a huge concern; priority pretty much makes the Focus Sash a useless item.

Also, don't take this the wrong way, as I really don't see a reason to ban it.

 

[Drifloon]

Spikes, toxic spikes, Hail, Sandstorm?

There are a dozen reasons not to ban SR, but that's not one of them.

I would suspect that focus sash usage would still go up though, because flying types dont have to worry about anything but weather.

Anyways, the real reason I don't want sr banned is because it keeps top threats like Volcarona from beating the whole tier. Obviously its not unbeatable, but without sr, these 4x/2x weak pokemon can easily set up and destroy teams. It also nets certain OHKO's for sweepers.

 

[Woodchuck]

I despise Stealth Rock because of it's type discrimination, as it automatically makes anything weak to it at a disadvantage.

ITT: Racism in Pokemon.

Also, "I despise Conkeldurr for making anything weak to Mach Punch at a disadvantage."

/sarcastic semi-humor

Pokemon is a game of disadvantages, people. Adapt to Stealth Rock, as YES it's common, YES it's good, but it's not gamebreaking. This metagame has more UU pokemon that are viable in OU than there were last gen, and Stealth Rock is less dominant this gen than last gen. This metagame is already diverse because of the fact that there are 600-something-something pokemon out there now. There are so many pokemon that team matchup is even more of a factor now. I'm not saying we want a less diverse metagame, but we don't need to go banning stealth rock because "our metagame is not diverse enough".

 

[alexwolf]

I would suspect that focus sash usage would still go up though, because flying types dont have to worry about anything but weather.

Anyways, the real reason I don't want sr banned is because it keeps top threats like Volcarona from beating the whole tier. Obviously its not unbeatable, but without sr, these 4x/2x weak pokemon can easily set up and destroy teams. It also nets certain OHKO's for sweepers.

if this is your only concern then the solution is simple!we ban the top threats that become broken without sr checking them and we are fine!!!
isn't this what we have been doing almost always???
banning the broken pokes???
i am not supporting the banning of sr but for other reasons...if this was the only reason against its banning then i would gladly support then ban of this move.
but the biggest issue is that some pokes would switch in with no penalty and focus shash could be a real pain!also stall would be almost completely unviable having zero tools to damage flying and leviating pokes...

 

[Stratos]

Stall would just toss out a MASSIVE "F*ck you" to Skarmory if SR was banned. As it is, Skarmory basically singlehandedly destroys stall teams.

 

[Nonary Game]

Long story short, while SR does have it's negatives (Yeah it kinda sucks that it hurts Volcarona, Yanmega, and Moltres more than it needs to), the positives, like checking dangerous Fliers like Dragonite and Gyarados greatly outweigh the negatives.

 

[PallyHeroRush52]

The hypocrisy of Smogon... is Stealth Rock.

I've been reading the analyses of pokemon (just to try the movesets for in game fun), and it seems that many of them (almost all, actually) have the words "Stealth Rock" somewhere in the overview. I even see wording that basically implies that both teams will always have stealth rock. I also see that some pokemon are even knocked down a tier just because of having a weakness to Stealth Rock.

Go to almost any pokemon analysis on Smogon and Ctrl+f "Stealth Rock" and it is almost a guarantee that it will be somewhere on the page.

Since it's in almost every analysis, I believe that Stealth Rock is overcentralizing the metagame, and it should be banned.

This sentence says it all:

"Apart from its huge Stealth Rock weakness, you probably couldn't find anything noticeably wrong with Charizard."

I have a very strong belief that pokemon such as Charizard with good overall stats and Typlosion with a deadly choice item eruption should be in the UU tier on Smogon. If Smogon religiously doesn't want to ban Stealth Rock, or if they don't have a viable reason, then they'll lose some credibility. I've heard that it's "promoting pokemon at the cost of others," but doesn't banning minimize and double team do the same thing? What about Blaziken's Speed Boost?

I don't see nearly every analysis talk about Outrage or Close Combat, so why do nearly all of them talk about Stealth Rock? Maybe I should take each tier, do a statistical analysis of the average weakness to rock type (maybe as a correlation to BST), and see if it's statistically significant.

 

[Ashenlock]

Maybe I should take each tier, do a statistical analysis of the average weakness to rock type (maybe as a correlation to BST), and see if it's statistically significant.

There was one in Gen IV, that looked at every pokemon's type versus the usage of different types of moves. I think it even "averaged" the power of moves based on their accuracy (So Stone Edge would be 100 x .80 or, effectively, 80 base power). Rock came out as the most damage type in the game, even though Stone Edge, its premier attack move, is not spectacular like some types' main moves.

Of course, that was Gen IV, and I would love if the persons who came up with that one would do it again for today's OU.

 

[Redjar]

The hypocrisy of Smogon... is Stealth Rock.

I've been reading the analyses of pokemon (just to try the movesets for in game fun), and it seems that many of them (almost all, actually) have the words "Stealth Rock" somewhere in the overview. I even see wording that basically implies that both teams will always have stealth rock. I also see that some pokemon are even knocked down a tier just because of having a weakness to Stealth Rock.

Go to almost any pokemon analysis on Smogon and Ctrl+f "Stealth Rock" and it is almost a guarantee that it will be somewhere on the page.

Since it's in almost every analysis, I believe that Stealth Rock is overcentralizing the metagame, and it should be banned.

This sentence says it all:

"Apart from its huge Stealth Rock weakness, you probably couldn't find anything noticeably wrong with Charizard."

I have a very strong belief that pokemon such as Charizard with good overall stats and Typlosion with a deadly choice item eruption should be in the UU tier on Smogon. If Smogon religiously doesn't want to ban Stealth Rock, or if they don't have a viable reason, then they'll lose some credibility. I've heard that it's "promoting pokemon at the cost of others," but doesn't banning minimize and double team do the same thing? What about Blaziken's Speed Boost?

I don't see nearly every analysis talk about Outrage or Close Combat, so why do nearly all of them talk about Stealth Rock? Maybe I should take each tier, do a statistical analysis of the average weakness to rock type (maybe as a correlation to BST), and see if it's statistically significant.

A lot of them have stuff like "scizor" and "choice" in them too. You just don't like it b/c it beats up the pokemon you like (at least that's what it seems like) though I would be interested in stats though even it says 100% of teams use SR I still wouldn't vote for a ban on it and i run Volcarona and nonlead yanmega w/ no spinner and no complaints (on diff teams)

 

[Bombkirby]

A lot of them have stuff like "scizor" and "choice" in them too. You just don't like it b/c it beats up the pokemon you like (at least that's what it seems like) though I would be interested in stats though even it says 100% of teams use SR I still wouldn't vote for a ban on it and i run Volcarona and nonlead yanmega w/ no spinner and no complaints (on diff teams)

It needlessly punishes Pokemon that aren't even OP though. It's also extremely centralized. All calcs take SR into the main equation because its that prevalent. Its just SO important that its almost too important. Just widening your view on the subject.

 

[saPower1000]

Really the only people who have actual License to ban anything from the Pokemon games is the people who created Pokemon. This goes for everything and every game in general (with banning and such being up to their respective owners). There are just as many people who use Tyranitar as users of Stealth Rock. This sort of banning just decreases the ability of players to be able to use aspects implemented into the game meant to be used. Obviously, if your fighting a n00b using an all Arceus team then that's different, but with all of the bans and restrictions, I feel that the game is becoming more of a job which it shouldn't. If this keeps up, then I feel like the game could fall into a state of no repair with people banning caterpie because they don't like string shot. Tiers, I feel are different because it's a guideline that helps allow for fair competitive and fun play. All games have (+)'s and (-)'s, all games have people who like and dislike certain things about it. Just deal with it and play the game to have fun, instead of trolling over swift swim and stealth rock.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

What quite a few people don't seem to understand here is that smogon is promoting competitive pokemon. Things are banned in the interest of keeping pokemon competitive, if you feel that strongly about who has the 'rights' to ban what then you should understand that smogon does not wholly represent pokemon, it represents a community of competitive players, you are free to play by your own rules.

That being said, SR isn't uncompetitive, it does not allow a better player to lose to a lesser one due to luck / chance much like evasion, etc, and although it may be hugely popular it is by no means broken.

 

[PokéMontage]

People don't seem to get it - being centralizing isn't a bad thing. All centralizing means is that something is really good and is commonly used, so you probably have to take it into account when making a team. That by no means implies that it's broken. It's just as easy to dedicate one moveslot to Rapid Spin as it is to dedicate one moveslot to Stealth Rock. If your favorite Pokemon is weak to the move...well, too bad, everything has weaknesses that you need to overcome if you want to use it successfully. You're not going to be catered to just because you love Charizard.

Also, "overcentralizing" is a BS term. You're basically saying you think something should be banned because it's too popular...which is just dumb. The best things will always be very popular. You cannot avoid it. Only when that popular thing is broken does it become a problem.

 

[sax king]

Having a Stealth Rock weakness is just part of life. It's similar to Slaking. Slaking would be great if it weren't for Truant. But it has Truant, and you just have to deal with it. Slaking should be running around in OU, but we're not going to ban Truant.

Similarly, Charizard is a great pokemon. But it has a weakness to Stealth Rock. Sorry Charizard, get a spinner!

I feel like 90% of people who complain about SR do it because they want to use Charizard. Please people, I'm sorry but that's just how it is. It's just not meant to be. It's like making a metagame where we ban all fighting, ground, and water moves so I can use Probopass (brb making new tier).

To those of you who actually think SR is broken:
What makes it ban-worthy?
I mean, sure it's popular, but it pretty much is the same as Outrage. If you don't have a steel type to take it, you're going to get fucked. Similarly, if you don't have a spinner, you're going to see the consequences. You can make a team without a spinner and with six Yanmegas, but you can't blame all of your losses on SR. And to be honest, unless you're running a pokemon with a 4x weakness, who the hell cares about SR? If more than two pokemon on your team are weak to it, than you simply have a poorly constructed team. Not just because you are weak to SR, but because you have a Rock weakness in general. You need to plan around type weaknesses and throw in something to take it.

TL;DR
Charizard, you're weak to SR? Too bad.
If you're having problems with SR, you just need to learn how to deal with it like any other threat.

 

[yaya0]

Exactly. Just bring a spinner.

 

[kiddu]

Also, "overcentralizing" is a BS term. You're basically saying you think something should be banned because it's too popular...which is just dumb. The best things will always be very popular. You cannot avoid it. Only when that popular thing is broken does it become a problem.

Aren't the tiers primarily based on usage? It just seems pretty contradictory to say that banning based on usage is stupid when Smogon already does that as far as the lower tiers are concerned.

NOTE: I'm not advocating banning an attack like Earthquake to Ubers over usage, or even arguing either way on SR. I'm just saying how calling usage bans stupid while on Smogon seems silly to me.

 

[alexwolf]

People don't seem to get it - being centralizing isn't a bad thing. All centralizing means is that something is really good and is commonly used, so you probably have to take it into account when making a team. That by no means implies that it's broken. It's just as easy to dedicate one moveslot to Rapid Spin as it is to dedicate one moveslot to Stealth Rock. If your favorite Pokemon is weak to the move...well, too bad, everything has weaknesses that you need to overcome if you want to use it successfully. You're not going to be catered to just because you love Charizard.

Also, "overcentralizing" is a BS term. You're basically saying you think something should be banned because it's too popular...which is just dumb. The best things will always be very popular. You cannot avoid it. Only when that popular thing is broken does it become a problem.

While i agree with almost everything you said there is a problem with the bolded sentence...
This sentence is just plain false!The viable users of sr in ou are more than 20 but the viable users of rapid spin are 4(6 if you count in the 2 most used uu spinners),Starmie,tentacruel,doryuuzu,forretress,hitmontop,donphan,...
Rapid spinning is very difficult this gen and you can't always fit a rapid spinner in your team 'cause there are so little to choose from...
I don't want SR banned but rapid spinning is 10 times harder than using SR..

 

[jas61292]

So here's the thing. Overcentralization has been used as an argument here by many people, and just as many claim it is not an argument at all. Overcentralization is a legitimate argument for banning something, however, what people fail to realize is that popularity is not the same as centralization. Somthing is popular when many people use it. Something is centralizing when it morphs the metagame around itself. Stealth Rock is both popular and centralizing. However, just as centralizing =/= popular, centralizing =/= over-centralizing. For something to be over-centralizing, it would need to affect the metagame to the extent that failing to prepare for it, or use it your self, means it is nearly impossible to win. While SR is popular and centralizing, it does not cause people to lose by itself (unless they are using a team that really shouldn't be used in OU anyways).

 

[ensoriki]

I detest Stealth rock personally. I wouldn't if rapid spin was more prevalent or if there was some other move to use instead of rapid spin, hell if Gust removed SR I wouldn't be voicing an opinion.
Once SR is on the field you pretty much have only pokemon that can do anything about it, and that's not a guarantee since you may not be running a rapid spinner. Who can blame you for not bringing a rapid spinner the selection is small.

 

[NDenizen]

As i've said before, Stealth Rock stands to be nerfed even further before it could ever be considered balanced. One move should never have the damage output of a Super Fang for the simple act of switching in, and it should be avoidable like Spikes is.

In Gen 4 it was ridiculous and if ever was something overcentralising the game, it was Stealth Rock, and it should have been fucking banned - every lead basically was meant to use, stop, stop and use, or avoid the effects of, Stealth Rock, and its counters were absolutely pathetic or easily managed. The fact a single move got more references than other OU pokemon in most analyses is retarded. How anybody can defend it back then after seeing a metagame where it doesn't influence every single match, is beyond me. It was broken, boring and just generally unhealthy.

Nowadays, you actually can deal with it. Magic Coat and Magic Bounce punish the use of Stealth Rock, Priority Taunt means you can use something other than Azelf or Aerodactyl, it's less distributed, there's more Magic Guard, and Rapid Spin whilst still one of the worst moves ever, has a few more users, some of which have the boosted Sturdy to assure hazard removal. Team Preview removes the promise of the same SR-based leads in every game, too. If SR causes a problem, you now have an answer that doesn't drastically alter your team.

It's a shit move, but in Gen 5, it's in its rightful place as just another popular strategy.

 

[imapedarsag]

Is it too much to ask for an item that prevents a Pokemon from taking residual damage? Something like Stealth Camo that let's your Pokemon sneak past the rocks and spikes and enter the battle unharmed.

If not then how about another ability? Magic Bounce does nothing once the rocks/spikes are up. Only 4 fully evolved Pokemon get Magic Guard, meaning the other 300+ will be punished on the spot. Of course that's assuming the rocks are up.

Lastly, I will never understand why Ghost types are affected by entry hazards, more Spikes than Stealth Rock. It's a freakin ghost. Shouldn't the Spikes just go through them? But I guess you could say that about every move in the game, so don't attack me on this one.

 

[Nonary Game]

The hypocrisy of Smogon... is Stealth Rock.

I've been reading the analyses of pokemon (just to try the movesets for in game fun), and it seems that many of them (almost all, actually) have the words "Stealth Rock" somewhere in the overview. I even see wording that basically implies that both teams will always have stealth rock. I also see that some pokemon are even knocked down a tier just because of having a weakness to Stealth Rock.

Go to almost any pokemon analysis on Smogon and Ctrl+f "Stealth Rock" and it is almost a guarantee that it will be somewhere on the page.

Since it's in almost every analysis, I believe that Stealth Rock is overcentralizing the metagame, and it should be banned.

This sentence says it all:

"Apart from its huge Stealth Rock weakness, you probably couldn't find anything noticeably wrong with Charizard."

I have a very strong belief that pokemon such as Charizard with good overall stats and Typlosion with a deadly choice item eruption should be in the UU tier on Smogon. If Smogon religiously doesn't want to ban Stealth Rock, or if they don't have a viable reason, then they'll lose some credibility. I've heard that it's "promoting pokemon at the cost of others," but doesn't banning minimize and double team do the same thing? What about Blaziken's Speed Boost?

I don't see nearly every analysis talk about Outrage or Close Combat, so why do nearly all of them talk about Stealth Rock? Maybe I should take each tier, do a statistical analysis of the average weakness to rock type (maybe as a correlation to BST), and see if it's statistically significant.

You made this thread over at GameFAQs, why bring it over here? I've already deconstructed this post brutally over there and I have no intention of pasting it here.

The short of it is that those that took nasty amounts of damage from SR were already bad to begin with, like Charizard, Articuno, Typhlosion, etc.

And even then, the advent of Magic Bounce Espeon, Priority Taunt, etc, means it's no longer as overcentralizing a factor, if it ever was.

 

[Redjar]

There's plenty of things that weakened SR this round, rapid spin excadrill, magic bounce, lack of TM status, prankster, even the Gen V power creep (you wanna set up rocks while Conkeldurp or scrafty puts up a bulk up or sub or cloyster gets a shell smash?)

 

[PokéMontage]

So here's the thing. Overcentralization has been used as an argument here by many people, and just as many claim it is not an argument at all. Overcentralization is a legitimate argument for banning something, however, what people fail to realize is that popularity is not the same as centralization. Somthing is popular when many people use it. Something is centralizing when it morphs the metagame around itself. Stealth Rock is both popular and centralizing. However, just as centralizing =/= popular, centralizing =/= over-centralizing. For something to be over-centralizing, it would need to affect the metagame to the extent that failing to prepare for it, or use it your self, means it is nearly impossible to win. While SR is popular and centralizing, it does not cause people to lose by itself (unless they are using a team that really shouldn't be used in OU anyways).

No, centralizing means that something is very good and therefore very popular. It's a dominating force in the game, so you should have a way to deal with it or you're probably going to have trouble. Tyranitar and Scizor are good examples of this. They're not broken, but they're very good and get a ton of usage so if you don't have a way to deal with them...well, all the best to you.

Overcentralization is a silly term. It basically means that you think something is "too popular" which is a ridiculous argument for banning in of itself. If it was a valid argument, a Pokemon would forcefully be nominated simply because it was #1 in usage.

Stealth Rock is popular and is therefore centralizing. However, it's not broken. Learn how to deal with it.

While i agree with almost everything you said there is a problem with the bolded sentence...
This sentence is just plain false!The viable users of sr in ou are more than 20 but the viable users of rapid spin are 4(6 if you count in the 2 most used uu spinners),Starmie,tentacruel,doryuuzu,forretress,hitmontop,donphan,...
Rapid spinning is very difficult this gen and you can't always fit a rapid spinner in your team 'cause there are so little to choose from...
I don't want SR banned but rapid spinning is 10 times harder than using SR..

My point was that Stealth Rock takes up one moveslot and Rapid Spin takes up one moveslot and there are very usable Pokemon that learn each move. If your team has a major Stealth Rock weakness but you're not willing to dedicate one moveslot to Rapid Spin, you have no right to complain. Either put Rapid Spin on your team or change your team members around so that you don't have such an exploitable weakness.

 

[Charro]

Are people still arguing about this?, SR it's not broken, passive damage is very good for the metagame, do people want the slow paced GSC meta back or something?, most sr weak pokes are actually bad to begin with, and the good ones are still monsters even with that weakness. It limits the amount of turns that CB Scizor can switch in and hit your face like a truck with its U-turns, that Salamence can do the same with Draco Meteor, makes multi-scale Dragonite killeable, break sturdy and focus sashes, and most importantly nerf Volcarona, that thing is pretty broken without that x4 weakness, aside from Terrakion and maybe taunt Jellicent, nothing counters Volcarona with hp rock, Heatran is 2HKOed and is only set-up fodder, the same for Tentacruel unless it start running toxic or something
I know that 50 % of your health just for switching in is retarded, but we can't do anything about it, and we're not going to ban something THAT useful just because it makes some random pokemon even more unusable (is not like they're going to jump to OU without sr either)