-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Patience is a Virtue (formerly "Dragon + Rain = ???")
- Thread starter aost
- Start date
The reason that LO is counter-productive on DDNite is that it breaks your own MultiScale if you have to attack early, before you set up. And it makes you vulnerable to SS damage, which could break Multiscale.
But AeroMence, I don't know why you're so stubborn here. Have you used both? If you try to play DNite exactly like you would play a Mence, then Mence will do the job better. But if you Nite like a Nite, and Mence like a Mence, neither is the "better" sweeper. It depends on what kind of team it's on and how it's being used. Offensive DDNite isn't out-classed by Mence due to Multiscale. Let me know when your Mence tanks things like an Excadrill Rock Slide (that's just an example, I'm not saying anything about Excadrill).
Regardless of whether or not you invest in bulk, Nite has the potential to set up easier and avoid getting destroyed by Scarfers mid-sweep.
Now I know what you're going to say: "What about when MultiScale breaks? Mence instantly becomes better!" That's not actually true. After a DD, Mence has 3 more Atk points than Nite. Just 3. I guarantee you that those 3 points do not miss out on any KOes.
You might also say: "But Mence has Fire Blast for Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc.!" Nite gets Fire Blast as well. And I can assure you that even with lower SpAtk, it gets the job done just as well, since you'll only be using it on things weak to it anyway. Nite can also use Fire Punch (better than Fire Blast), which gets boosted by DD, which is actually stronger than Mence Fire Blast after a boost.
AeroMence, they play differently, but while Salamence can be a terrifying sweeper, it does not outclass Dragonite in any way. Either you're stuck in a 4th Gen mentality, or your username might indicate some sort of personal bias, and I couldn't say what the real answer is. Sorry if it sounded rude, but it kinda had to be said.
i agree though. they play differently. but wat im saying is: mence is better offencively cos it can abuse LO without wrecking it's only niche. dnite is better bulky cos of multisclae being slightly better than intimidate, the only reason it being "slightly" better is because it doesnt need rapid spin or clear skies to play well. all im trying to say is: if u gonna use LO, use salamence, cos its counterproductive on dnite. dnite is still a lot slower and more open to revenging than mence. dont even bother with an offencive dnite. aost is using an offencive one with leftovers, salamence actually does it better. use a bulkier spread or dont bother with dnite. Mence isn't 2hkod by an excadrills rock slide cos of intimdate, which is pretty much the same as multiscale for physical attacks, and can also cripple other sweepers. can dnite do that?
o yeah, and just becuase i like salamence (he's cool and all, but not a legend) doesn't mean im trying to get aost 2 use it. just sayin that if u wanna use ANY sort of offencive spread, go with salamence. In my opinion, dnite is actually better, im just sayin that if u use anything that's outclassed by another poke, dont use it. bulky dd on salamence, for example, is shit. while offencive dd on dnite is heavily outclassed by salamence.
Maybe if u read my other post, u wouldn't be repeating what i've been trying to say this whole time
o yeah, and just becuase i like salamence (he's cool and all, but not a legend) doesn't mean im trying to get aost 2 use it. just sayin that if u wanna use ANY sort of offencive spread, go with salamence. In my opinion, dnite is actually better, im just sayin that if u use anything that's outclassed by another poke, dont use it. bulky dd on salamence, for example, is shit. while offencive dd on dnite is heavily outclassed by salamence.
Maybe if u read my other post, u wouldn't be repeating what i've been trying to say this whole time
i wouldn't say offensive dd dragonite is heavily outclassed by mence anymore. In fact, in the current bulky era of the 5th gen, I'd often put offensive ddnite in favor over mence. The speed between the two isn't such a big deal anymore and extremespeed is really nice. Also, multiscale is FANTASTIC even on the offensive ddnite. Offensive dragonite sets, including dd set is definitely not "shit" as it has its merits over mence while mence has its own. Multiscale is actually ridiculously good, of course with leftovers.
intimidate is good too. mence can also ohko skarmory, which dnite cant do until at +3 (offencive) or +4 (bulky). Yeah, it is in many ways, but every other viable set that dnite can run is better than mence (cos mixnite isnt viable, it just sucks). if u think offencive dd dnite is better than mence in any way, i gotta ask, have u even used mence? naughty nature+lum berry with dd/outrage/earthquake/fire blast is the best set in the current meta, and if u think offencive ddnite outclasses offencive ddmence, ur thoughts will change after using this. again, they do play differently, but with offencive dd or mixed, salamence wins anyday. with bulky dd, specs, defencive, shuffler, special tank (i've tested, and it works lol), physical tank, and about anything else viable. dnite is better and more versatile, but mence is better for pure offence.
intimidate is indeed good but to multi-boost, multiscale is simply better.
ive used mence, yes. to be honest, i still see mence as a pretty frail sweeper, which I really dislike to have in the current meta where the bulky sweepers are the most prevalent. sure mence has its niche but nite has its own as well. i don't think you've quite understood my post. you've referred to nite's offensive-oriented sets as being "shit" and I am/was merely attempting to say otherwise and that nite has its adv over mence as well.
it's pretty obvious that you like mence and i also understand that it's nice to see your favorite mon doing well but really i amd merely telling you the truth: dragonite has its advantage over mence just like mence does and that even its offensive sets aren't "shit" as nite's offensive sets are still played in a manner of bulky offensive sets while mence is played in a more offense-oriented way.
Anyways, since this thread is really for the RMT I'd rather not discuss this on this thread before it gets out of hand.
ive used mence, yes. to be honest, i still see mence as a pretty frail sweeper, which I really dislike to have in the current meta where the bulky sweepers are the most prevalent. sure mence has its niche but nite has its own as well. i don't think you've quite understood my post. you've referred to nite's offensive-oriented sets as being "shit" and I am/was merely attempting to say otherwise and that nite has its adv over mence as well.
it's pretty obvious that you like mence and i also understand that it's nice to see your favorite mon doing well but really i amd merely telling you the truth: dragonite has its advantage over mence just like mence does and that even its offensive sets aren't "shit" as nite's offensive sets are still played in a manner of bulky offensive sets while mence is played in a more offense-oriented way.
Anyways, since this thread is really for the RMT I'd rather not discuss this on this thread before it gets out of hand.
Nice team, however, I'd prefer bulky ddnite set over your current one with HP investment.
As for the nite vs mence topic, let's drop it (i hate this argument). Nite and Mence have their own merits in their sets, even he offensive ddnite with multiscale + extremespeed is awesome.
multiscale is fucking awesome periodddd
As for the nite vs mence topic, let's drop it (i hate this argument). Nite and Mence have their own merits in their sets, even he offensive ddnite with multiscale + extremespeed is awesome.
multiscale is fucking awesome periodddd
Just a quick question about that Mamoswine...
Ice Shard is priority.
Choice Scarf boosts speed.
Why do you have them on the same poke?
I don't remember off the top of my head if Ice Shard is Special or not, but you could replace that scarf with the appropriate band/scarf/whatever.
If this was already mentioned sorry about that, I just noticed it and posted.
Ice Shard is priority.
Choice Scarf boosts speed.
Why do you have them on the same poke?
I don't remember off the top of my head if Ice Shard is Special or not, but you could replace that scarf with the appropriate band/scarf/whatever.
If this was already mentioned sorry about that, I just noticed it and posted.
while everyone here fights over whether Nite or mence is better, id like to point ou the obvious fact that a team with 3 dragons, and no steels, is inherintly dragon weak. Now i see you have mamoswine, who is the best dragon killer, but i still have issues with that dragon weakness. Personally i think you should scrap the rain, it doesnt benefit anyone but politoed really. If you are only using rain to counter sand (which it certainly does sound like that from your decriptions) then run a steel type in his place carrying a weather changing move that you can use after the opposing tyranitar etc.. is removed. I suggest using a levitate bronzong, he is very bulky, only has one weakness (which is more than covered by the rest of your team) and can learn rain dance or sunny day. Not to mention he can set up hazards or set up screens to protect your dragons for a few rounds, and most importantly, he resists dragon moves, and is immune to ground moves which dragons often carry to deal with steels (dont beleive me? check your own dragons haha). So basically, i think bronzong is the perfect fit to your team, not sure on which moveset because it depends on how supportive you want him.
I pretty much scrapped Haxorus, Starmie, and Mamoswine for Deoxys-S, Heatran, and Rotom. They have fit this team better and has been more of a nuisance to other teams. I just haven't really gotten to changing my original post because I have been extremely busy/lazy.
look, i didnt say dnite's offencive sets are shit, i just said they were slightly outclassed by mence. bulky dd is better than mence altogether, but aost is just using an fencive ddnite with lfties. u might as well switch to an offencive ddmence with lefties. go a bulky spread or go to salamence. pretty simple
They do have their own merits, but in aost's case, he's just using an inferior salamence. try a bulkier set like this so it isn't technically outclassed by salamence:
name: Bulky Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Dragon Claw
move 3: Fire Punch
move 4: Roost
item: Leftovers
ability: Multiscale
nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Spe
This set is nowhere close to being outclassed by anything, it's own set, not outclassed by salamence like the one aost is using now. use this one or use salamence
They do have their own merits, but in aost's case, he's just using an inferior salamence. try a bulkier set like this so it isn't technically outclassed by salamence:
name: Bulky Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Dragon Claw
move 3: Fire Punch
move 4: Roost
item: Leftovers
ability: Multiscale
nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Spe
This set is nowhere close to being outclassed by anything, it's own set, not outclassed by salamence like the one aost is using now. use this one or use salamence
AeroMence, I'm not the best person to tell you why you're wrong. Go ask C&C or something. Because I'm not qualified, I'll give it up. However, I just want to ask you something.
Here goes: Did you seriously just suggest using a DDMence with Leftieovers? Please tell me that it was sarcasm.
@aost, it would be really helpful if you would update the OP with the changes you're making. For instance, it still looks like Starmie gets outsped by Thunderbro, when I'm sure that you've fixed it by now.
Here goes: Did you seriously just suggest using a DDMence with Leftieovers? Please tell me that it was sarcasm.
@aost, it would be really helpful if you would update the OP with the changes you're making. For instance, it still looks like Starmie gets outsped by Thunderbro, when I'm sure that you've fixed it by now.
I really have no problem with Thunderbro (lol) with that ultra bulky Heatran I put in. I'm running HP Ice on it and really have no problems. Yeah I'll update that post right now because it's causing quite a nuisance.
EDIT:
I am going to update the original post when I wake up from my slumber. I am exhausted from my long day and wish to get some sleep to maximize my thought when writing my analysis about the new team.
Um, no. i said why bother using an offencive spread on dnite when bulky is so much better, and salamence even sorta outclasses this. its just offencive with roost and lefties
Alright I updated the original post. I want more critiques, maybe a replacement for Gastrodon? I was thinking Swampert or Feraligatr. This team has great potential and can get me a ton of ladder points, but unfortunately, I keep getting haxed to death or disconnected because of my shit internet.
1) No, it is not out-classed. Ask around the rest of the site, and see what responses you get. Check the Dragonite analysis. Seriously, if you're not going to use any outside evidence, then you might as well not even argue.
2) Um, yes.
@aost: Yay, it's updated!
Okay, I think it's clever that you have Deoxys-S out-sped Excadrill, but it's really not necessary because you're using a Drizzle team, meaning that Excadrill should be slow anyway (assuming you beat the Tyranitar). Therefore, I would give Deoxys-S Leftovers instead, to improve its longevity. Since you won't have a Choice Scarf, you should replace Trick as well, because you don't want to get rid of your Leftovers. I would probably go for Taunt. And because you're not trying to out-speed Excadrill, you could use the Speed EVs elsewhere. You might want to for max Atk, and ditch the SDef, but I suppose that's your choice.
Your Rotom-W looks solid, but I have to wonder, what are those 52 SDef EVs doing for you? If it were me, I would just pump them into SAtk, to make it hit harder.
Politoed: I'm not sure exactly what Speed tier you're going for, but I would get rid of the SDef investment and just go max Speed, unless there is a specific Speed you're going for. Otherwise, he looks good.
Heatran really wants to have Lava Plume instead of Heat Wave. In the rain, Fire attacks will be really weak anyway, so there's no point in using a powerful move. Instead, you should use Lava Plume because it has a 30% chance to burn the opponent, which will help Heatran live longer and wear down the opponent.
On Latios, scrap Shadow Ball. There's nothing that it hits harder than your other moves. Use Thunder there and you'll be fine.
Now, for Gastrodon. I would say that you might as well go with max SDef or max Def, amd then max HP, instead of being mixed. However, I am not very familiar with Gastrodon, so there could be benefits to going mixed that I'm not aware of. Don't take my word for it, but I think that doing one or the other would be best. I can say with certainty, though, that you'll want Scald over Surf. Because it's a defensive Pokemon, it would really appreciate the 30% burn chance.
Edit: Do not replace him for Swampert or Feraligatr. Feraligatr can't do a defensive set at all, he lacks the bulk and movepool for it. Swampert doesn't get Recover, and its selling point is Stealth Rock, which you already have. Neither of them can do what Gastrodon does as well as Gastrodon.
Your team has a problem, in that it's weak to other weathers if you lose the weather war. However, if you win the weather war, it's a quite solid team.
So, good luck with the team, aost!
This might be a little jumbled, but here goes. For Deoxys-S, I can try your suggestions, but the Deoxys-S set is for those pesky stallers and entry hazard Pokes. Sorry I forgot to mention that in the OP, I could go ahead and edit it to make that more clear. Just consider the OP to be a rough draft :). EDIT: I'm not really worried about Excadrills that much because a strategical usage of Heatran and Rotom can win the day.
Yeah for Latios, I might as well run Thunder, that's a mistake that I put when I was running tests (putting Shadow Ball). Shadow Ball is on there because since the Smogon server is down, I have to resort playing in the PO server, and there roams people who like to spam CM on Reuniculus. Side note, PO is absolutely horrible because hax is so prevalent. My rating is terrible (in my standards) because I've been haxed to death many, many times. I can't even have a game where an opponent doesn't hax me to death.
For Heatran, whatever help he can get to maximize his offensive potential I'll take. Thank you! And about his teammate Rotom-W, I put those SpD EVs to provide cushion against differing special attacks whether it be Ice Beams it takes for Latios or Hidden Powers. It's just there to maximize its bulk while being deadly in the rain.
As for the rain maker, yeah I was going to run max speed anyways because those SpD EVs really don't do anything. EDIT: I forgot to mention that I am extremely conservative in using Politoed. I almost always switch Politoed into the battle when Hippowdon or Tyranitar is in revenge killing range. I just forgot to come around to it haha. Gastrodon for me is still a question mark. I could run max SpD and Def, but I just don't know how often I will have to withstand physical-based attacks, hence the EV investment in HP. It can also account for maximizing the amount of HP recovered using Recover.
I don't understand how having a Scarf on Deo helps with entry hazard pokes? Can you explain for me?
Yeah I agree about the hax on PO, but I just live with it and hope that I can hax someone else as payment.
I think you meant "survivability potential" about Heatran. :P
As for Rotom-W, he's a bulky mofo, so I doubt you need those SDef EVs, but they're not hurting anything by adding to bulk, so it's also fine to keep them I suppose.
It's good to be conservative with Toed, but like you said,those EVs aren't really helping.
As for Gastrodon, I would think a max HP/max SDef spread would be best, but like I said I'm not the best person to ask about him.
Running Scarf is for Trick because once an entry hazard Poke is tricked, they are pretty much rendered useless and just dead weight for the opposing team.
Taunt can also prevent them from setting up, although not for the whole match. But it's much less reliant on prediction. If you Trick away your Scarf at the wrong time, then you'll be unable to stop the hazard setters for the rest of the match.
And being locked into one move can also be a nuisance. If you use a move, them hazard setters can come in and set up. You'll have to switch out, then back in to Trick them. Taunt, on the other hand, could be used at any time.
Besides, even when you Trick them, it won't stop them from setting up. They'll just be unable to do anything else. Taunt could actually stop them from doing it in the first place.
I honestly just don't think TrickScarf is helping you that much.
Oh, ok I can see what you're saying. So instead of playing suicide lead with Deoxys, you're suggesting I replace Trick with Taunt and play Deoxys more conservatively?
Yeah. You see, Rotom, Heatran, and Gastrodon are all bulky mofos, and I feel like playing Deo more conservatively would be more in line with the rest of the team.
Which brings me to another issue that I just realized. Your team doesn't seem to have a focus anymore. Your 'mons are all awesome, and they have good synergy, but it appears to lack a plan to victory. A way to get you the goods in the endgame. See, you don't have a good sweeper, meaning that you sorta have to kill enemy 'mons one by one. It's also not a stall team, meaning that it doesn't just slowly strangle the opponent either. I'm not saying that the team isn't good, just that it looks like it lacks a game-plan.
I wouldn't really outline my gameplan here, but pretty much is choke the team with status and entry hazards. The Pokes can all wall with the exceptions of Latios and Deoxys. I can switch Gastrodon for a bulky Scizor because the type of Pokes that I like are bulky to withstand any attack outside of their weaknesses and hit back hard, I let the opponent "kill themselves", per se. I'm more like a player with the mentality of "once the opportunity opens up, take advantage of it". The phazing game is also prevalent in my game style. However, I would like to hear your suggestion of a "good sweeper".
Well, I didn't necessarily think of a suggestion, I was just noticing that your team lacks the ability to crack down late game.
I do think I see what you're talking about though.
Let me sleep on it, and I'll get back to you in the morning.
Hey,
So you've ended up with a pretty solid team after all the changes that have been made. First off, simply max hp and sp def on Gastrodon and change the nature to Calm. There is no use whatsoever in those def evs, Gastrodon needs the special defense for big threats to your team such as NP Thundurus or Tornadus. Replace HP Electric with either Ice Beam to hit Dragons or Earth Power for another STAB attack. Your team already handles Gyarados excellenty, in Rotom-W and Politoed you have two great checks to it.
I'd also like you to try out Perish Song on Politoed over one of you water moves. Perish Song is an excellent move to annoy ShellSmash and is a great way to defeat bulky stat-uppers such as CM Reuniclus or CM Latias late-game.
As is stated above, if the 52 Sp Def evs on Rotom aren't doing anything for you then change the spread to 112 HP | 252 SpA | 144 Spe which allows you to outspeed all Tyranitar and Adamant Breloom.
This isn't necessary, but you can also try out an offensive Deoxys over your current one. Offensive Deoxys still defeats Ferrothorn and Skarmory as you wish, but now poses a much more offensive threat. Expert Belt is the preferred item as Deoxys is mainly concentrating on coverage. 40 Attack EVs is enough to OHKO most Tyranitar, while the rest can be used to maximise special attack and the remaining put into speed with a Naive nature. The moveset is Superpower | HP Fire | Spikes | Psycho Boost. Psycho Boost is mainly filler, but it provides an extremely powerful STAB attack, which does a lot to neutral targets. Other options for that slot are Ice Beam, which retains the coverage you had with Ice Punch, or Shadow Ball to hit Reuniclus.
Great team, and good luck!
So you've ended up with a pretty solid team after all the changes that have been made. First off, simply max hp and sp def on Gastrodon and change the nature to Calm. There is no use whatsoever in those def evs, Gastrodon needs the special defense for big threats to your team such as NP Thundurus or Tornadus. Replace HP Electric with either Ice Beam to hit Dragons or Earth Power for another STAB attack. Your team already handles Gyarados excellenty, in Rotom-W and Politoed you have two great checks to it.
I'd also like you to try out Perish Song on Politoed over one of you water moves. Perish Song is an excellent move to annoy ShellSmash and is a great way to defeat bulky stat-uppers such as CM Reuniclus or CM Latias late-game.
As is stated above, if the 52 Sp Def evs on Rotom aren't doing anything for you then change the spread to 112 HP | 252 SpA | 144 Spe which allows you to outspeed all Tyranitar and Adamant Breloom.
This isn't necessary, but you can also try out an offensive Deoxys over your current one. Offensive Deoxys still defeats Ferrothorn and Skarmory as you wish, but now poses a much more offensive threat. Expert Belt is the preferred item as Deoxys is mainly concentrating on coverage. 40 Attack EVs is enough to OHKO most Tyranitar, while the rest can be used to maximise special attack and the remaining put into speed with a Naive nature. The moveset is Superpower | HP Fire | Spikes | Psycho Boost. Psycho Boost is mainly filler, but it provides an extremely powerful STAB attack, which does a lot to neutral targets. Other options for that slot are Ice Beam, which retains the coverage you had with Ice Punch, or Shadow Ball to hit Reuniclus.
Great team, and good luck!